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FYI, I checked with Thurston and can confirm that a deity's status in Starfinder has no bearing on the likelihood of their death in Pathfinder. :)
They’re staying separate canons, then! That saves me a thread asking about it.
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Wacks self with own brain after realising Gozreh is Herzog backwards….just came across a Gozreh shrine in a PF2 PbP, and didn’t notice until now….
Please, please, let it be Gozreh, so Golarion (not *quite* an anagram of Original, but suspiciously close) gets a better named nature god/dess.
Gozreh dying makes sense since it makes "nature" inherently wilder as there's not a singular ego one can appeal to in order to petition for favorable rain or wind or whatever. Making nature the province of "many little spirits" rather than "one big god" makes a lot of sense.
I just don't know if you can spin "Gozreh gets got" as part of a big story. This also sort of applies to the likes of Torag, Calistria, Erastil, Irori, Gorum, Cayden and Lamashtu- if they died, it wouldn't necessarily have huge repercussions.
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I feel like Gozreh is one of those deities that would feel almost cheap to off?
Like by definition they don't really interact in planar politics or do a lot of concrete activities.
So it's like... you off Gozreh and then everyone goes back to work the next day. Maybe you have some weird natural disasters or something but... idk.
Obviously Paizo can make any story as interesting as they want, but it doesn't feel like one starting from a very interesting spot.
It feels like this probably has to involve one of the major plotlines that remain unresolved on Golarion. Things like:
- Tar Baphon is still mad at Aroden, threatens all mortal life (involves Iomedae, Urgathoa)
- Nex and Geb have a war to restart (which could involve anybody TBH)
- Shelyn wants to save her brother.
- The House of Thrune is having a rough go of things.
- Rovagug's still trapped in Golarion's core.
etc.
My sincere hope is that the big event has something to do with Tar Baphon since that's been the elephant in the room since the start of PF2, and we haven't touched on it at all. Like I want to give that Knights of Lastwall book more attention than I have.
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How I see it:
Abadar: His death would be a bigger change to the world than to the player base, but there are deaths that would be much bigger to either or both. Not likely, but not impossible.
Asmodeus: His death would shake both Cheliax and Hell, creating plenty of story opportunities. Years worth, even. (They could slot in another devil as a replacement and either confirm them or replace them for 3E) There's also the OGL matter. Paizo is on firm ground to keep him, but they've been quietly setting themselves apart from D&D for some time even before The Situation made that a necessity. Ordinarily I'd only think it's him if it was the end of an edition, but The Situation isn't ordinary. Paizo may well think that taking him out is the safe option. I don't know if he's the planned death (if it is him), but it wouldn't surprise me if changes were made if he wasn't. They'd have had the lead time. I think he's the likeliest candidate.
Calistria: She'd be a surprise. She's one of the oldest deities, and played a pivotal role in imprisoning Rovagug. She's popular, and morally interesting. She sponsors good followers when part of her portfolio indicates that maybe she shouldn't. (Not that that's going to be an issue for much longer...) Plus she's a major ancestral deity. Then again, those are also reasons for it to be her.
Cayden Cailean: He's the second Starstone deity, and the oldest still living. He's popular with the fanbase. There are likelier deaths, but his wouldn't be impossible. It would also hopefully be suitably epic. (Plus it would frighten Norgorber and to an extent Iomedae)
Desna: She'd be a big surprise. BIG SURPRISE. She's one of James' favorites, she's very popular with the fanbase, and she and her clergy have played important roles in adventures and adventure paths. She's also the only one of them majorly concerned with the Dark Tapestry. She's another one whose death I could only buy if it was at the end of an edition. I think she's highly unlikely to be the one.
Erastil: He's another one whose death would impact the world far more than the players. Again, not likely but not impossible.
Gorum: The god of war dying in a divine war is narratively appropriate. I think he's up there in the rankings.
Gozreh: We will be in the middle of a big nature push when this storyline hits. Primal casters don't derive their powers from deities. If one wanted to take them out to elevate the Green Faith's profile, this would be the time.
Iomedae: She's a definite possibility. She's the youngest and least experienced of the Core 20, and probably the least powerful. On the other hand, the lore has really emphasized how she's trying to learn from Aroden's mistakes, to an extent that would be surprising for someone on the chopping block. I don't think it's her time yet. However, if it is, then Arazni or Milani will take her place.
Irori: I don't see them taking him out before we so much as get a proper look at Vudra. There's too much unexplored potential.
Lamashtu: Surprisingly possible! She got to where she is through a campaign of assassination, and she's concerned that somebody will follow her example. There's also the whole thing with Nualia, the main villain of the very first issue of Pathfinder. She's had focus, so her death would be a bit of a gut punch.
Nethys: I don't think he's been explored to his full potential yet. I don't see him going down any time soon, especially with PF and SF having different continuities.
Norgorber: His servants have been a thorn in players' sides ever since the second issue of Pathfinder. He's even been the focus of an entire adventure path. There are likelier candidates, but he's up there in the rankings.
Pharasma: Surprisingly likely. It's increasingly clear that things no longer go the way she expects. She's long believed that she'd be the last soul judged before the multiverse gets reset. The implications! The ramifications! Again: there are likelier candidates, but she's by no means down in the relative safety zone.
Rovagug: You can't take part in a divine war if you're stuck in a prison. His release would eclipse everything else in importance. Besides, the gods would have already killed him if they could have. He's probably the safest of them all.
Sarenrae: On par with Rovagug in likelihood. She's another of James' favorites, beloved by the fanbase, and has the highest IRL profile of any Pathfinder deity thanks to Critical Role. She's also the patron of the iconic cleric. I can see a temporary death, but her death sticking would be a shock.
Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon: Their stories are intertwined. I don't think it's possible to overstate the impact that one's death would have on the other. I can very easily see one dying, and the other either doing something desperate to save them or changing themselves to honor the other's memory. We know that they are going to merge into Zon-Shelyn at some point in Starfinder. Announcing that wasn't an accident. It was meant to make us speculate, and it's doing a fine job of that. On the one hand, any sort of merger or death-and-replacement would have a massive impact on Nidal. Cheliax would be far less changed by Asmodeus than Nidal would by this. On the other, it would be an appropriate development and it would go a long way toward a proper reconciliation with Naderi. If this does happen, I think Zon-Kuthon will be the one who is mortally wounded or killed.
Torag: He's gotten a push lately, but not exactly for positive reasons. He didn't order the dwarves to do anything but go to the surface, but apparently he didn't call them out for how they acted when they did. The Rivethun claim that he and his family are divine interlopers, and some dwarves hold him apart from the dwarven pantheon. Sacrificing himself to protect his family or his people, or to atone for his part in what happened to the Inner Sea's orcs, or both would be in character. I think he's second only to Asmodeus in terms of likelihood.
Urgathoa: She's another one who hasn't been explored to her full potential. She's a thorn in Pharasma's side, and she's (unknowingly?) interfering with the very lifecycle of the cosmos. Throw in how she's protecting Tar-Baphon's soul cage, and I think her death unlikely. (Though her death would also make finding said soul cage and safely getting out with it a lot easier...)
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Iomedae dying and Arazni taking over as "the Crusader Goddess" definitely crossed my mind as a possibility. It's now less important that the "Crusader Goddess" is "Lawful Good" since that's not even a thing anymore, and Arazni was Aroden's Herald first.
Keeping Arazni's nature of "survive, no matter what you have to do" and "hurt people hurt people" in that role would be a little edgy, but not more than is normal for Pathfinder from time to time.
Iomedae dying and Arazni taking over as "the Crusader Goddess" definitely crossed my mind as a possibility. It's now less important that the "Crusader Goddess" is "Lawful Good" since that's not even a thing anymore, and Arazni was Aroden's Herald first.
Keeping Arazni's nature of "survive, no matter what you have to do" and "hurt people hurt people" in that role would be a little edgy, but not more than is normal for Pathfinder from time to time.
Remember that Iomedae and Sarenrae would have knock-on effects for Seelah and Kyra, respectively. It doesn't make either impossible, but those two Iconics are pretty classic, and thus potentially tougher to mess with.
If I were putting money down, I'd go with Asmodeus since they are wanting to break heavily away from D and D and Asmoedus is heavily associated with with the D and D brand from the old days.
Could also be Erastil since they may want a less curmudgeonly god in that position that will allow them to completely change that lore and history. Though this death would be kind of boring.
Norgorber I wouldn't mind seeing dead. I just never liked him. I'd rather see a more interesting god of assassins.
I can't see good reasoning behind killing the other ones.
I think Asmodeus seems most likely as creating their own new Hell place from scratch further moves them away from dealing with any headaches from WotC. He's the only god they have left with any ties to WotC or the D and D brand.
I know all the Biblical and mythological Demon and Devil names are well beyond any copyright, but the way you use them might still be a headache. Why not nuke Asmodeus and the current Hell paradigm, completely do your own thing, and not have to worry about any cross pollination of ideas that might create headaches.
Huh, if your deity appears in Starfinder, that means they live... right :P ?
Erastil, Irori, Gorum, Nethys and Norgorber are not in Starfinder, so... there's your list of candidates.
As for others, Rovagug and Torag disappeared with Golarion when the Gap occured, but there are still "alive", and Shelyn is looking for a cure for Zon-Kuthon's condition as an upgrade deity of darkness and pain, so she's not "available" for worshipper. Other core deities were relegated to "minor deities" in Starfinder, but are still active. Dude, some minor Pathfinder deities were UPgraded in Starfinder, like Lao Shu Po and Besmara.
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Huh, if your deity appears in Starfinder, that means they live... right :P ?
Erastil, Irori, Gorum, Nethys and Norgorber are not in Starfinder, so... there's your list of candidates.
As for others, Rovagug and Torag disappeared with Golarion when the Gap occured, but there are still "alive", and Shelyn is looking for a cure for Zon-Kuthon's condition as an upgrade deity of darkness and pain, so she's not "available" for worshipper. Other core deities were relegated to "minor deities" in Starfinder, but are still active. Dude, some minor Pathfinder deities were UPgraded in Starfinder, like Lao Shu Po and Besmara.
It's been mentioned a few times in this thread, but I can't fault you for skipping--Starfinder deities are explicitly not guaranteed to be in the same continuity as Pathfinder deities. For primary example, SF Nocticula never became the Redeemer Queen.
No Starfinder deity is safe from being killed off in Pathfinder. The Gap apparently includes alt-universe shenanigans.
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I'm all for killing Asmodeus but I feel nuking the Nine layers of hell and removing all the biblical and mythological devils is kind of like throwing the baby out with water
Nobody is saying that the nine hells would go away with Asmodeus death. Mephistopheles (who is way cooler, anyway) could easily step up to be the next big boss, with someone who already is a bit below Archdevil stepping in to take over his particular part of hell. For example, it'd be really nice if one of the four Queens of the Night would get a bit more recognition by being elevated to the post of Archdevil, like Eiseth.
Huh, if your deity appears in Starfinder, that means they live... right :P ?
Erastil, Irori, Gorum, Nethys and Norgorber are not in Starfinder, so... there's your list of candidates.
As for others, Rovagug and Torag disappeared with Golarion when the Gap occured, but there are still "alive", and Shelyn is looking for a cure for Zon-Kuthon's condition as an upgrade deity of darkness and pain, so she's not "available" for worshipper. Other core deities were relegated to "minor deities" in Starfinder, but are still active. Dude, some minor Pathfinder deities were UPgraded in Starfinder, like Lao Shu Po and Besmara.
It's been mentioned a few times in this thread, but I can't fault you for skipping--Starfinder deities are explicitly not guaranteed to be in the same continuity as Pathfinder deities. For primary example, SF Nocticula never became the Redeemer Queen.
No Starfinder deity is safe from being killed off in Pathfinder. The Gap apparently includes alt-universe shenanigans.
Retcons can happen between settings? Really?
BTW, there's ONE mention of Nocticula in SF: A system called Striving has demon cults, including Nocticula, but at this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that those cultists simply "worship" her previous folio out of hedonism ^^;
I mean, if you're gonna choose between art or sex, which one are you gonna pick XD ?
I was tossing out a possibility and some of the thinking behind it. I have no more insight than anyone else and less than many. I know Asmodeus and the Nine Hells have been part of D and D since the early days. It is strongly a part of D&D. I know the source material is open source with the names and the idea of layers of Hell from Dante's Inferno or Milton's Paradise Lost.
I have no idea if WotC/Hasbro has copyrights they can cause trouble with over any of that material or names.
So maybe the creative minds plan to kill off Asmodeus and reshape Hell.
Just a guess.
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I'm all for killing Asmodeus but I feel nuking the Nine layers of hell and removing all the biblical and mythological devils is kind of like throwing the baby out with waterNobody is saying that the nine hells would go away with Asmodeus death. Mephistopheles (who is way cooler, anyway) could easily step up to be the next big boss, with someone who already is a bit below Archdevil stepping in to take over his particular part of hell. For example, it'd be really nice if one of the four Queens of the Night would get a bit more recognition by being elevated to the post of Archdevil, like Eiseth.
Also it strikes me that Killing Asmodeus or not there gonna have to do a big shake up of hell anyway if there wanting to get completly away from OGL (Since a fair number of the devils currently in use are from there.) So this would be a way to do it without just going "Oh it's actually just always been that way."
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If Sarenrae dies, I'm surprised if she doesn't come back to life because paizo killing of POC in polycule seems off since that would damage audience's trust in paizo not treating them as expendable. Like even just only Starfinder version being alive would still feel off
Sidenote, nobody has discussed possibilities of minor deities who are doomed.
I'm having gut feeling that says we should fear Ragathiel's fate(not feeling afraid for Damerrich or Vildeis though)
On Asmodeus dying, I have head canon that there already is two different Asmodeus(primal LE god Asmodeus and fallen Empyreal Lord Asmodeus) and one of them replaced the other at some point :p So Asmodeus dying would just be more on the point for me x'D
(if I get lucky, maybe Asura become more prominent in hell again x'P)
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Sidenote, nobody has discussed possibilities of minor deities who are doomed.
The deity said to die was explicitly stated to be part of the core 20. So I mean, they could kill off some less important gods or demigods as well I guess, but that's kind of not what this thread is about.
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I was tossing out a possibility and some of the thinking behind it. I have no more insight than anyone else and less than many. I know Asmodeus and the Nine Hells have been part of D and D since the early days. It is strongly a part of D&D. I know the source material is open source with the names and the idea of layers of Hell from Dante's Inferno or Milton's Paradise Lost.
I have no idea if WotC/Hasbro has copyrights they can cause trouble with over any of that material or names.
So maybe the creative minds plan to kill off Asmodeus and reshape Hell.
Just a guess.
The structure of Hell is straight out of Dante's inferno, so not really a need to reshape it. Most of the Archdevils are also from real world myth, although I can't recall how different they are from their DnD versions, as at this point I have become more familiar with the Pathfinder interpretations.
The types of devils IMHO are problematic OGL-wise than the individual demons.
I am sort of partial myself to the idea of one of the Queens of Night pulling a coupe if Asmodeus dies, and taking over. It would open up a lot of potential plotlines. Although failing that Mephistopheles would be my first choice for the new god of Hell
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From a narrative perspective, killing Asmodeus and throwing Hell into a succession crisis (to say nothing of the knock-on effects that will have on Cheliax) has a lot of story potential. I've been brainstorming something similar as a personal project back on the D&D side of things for some time*, so I certainly can't fault the idea.
As a player whose favorite PFS character was a 1E LN Chelaxian Flame Mystery Oracle of Asmodeus/Hellknight Signifer/Diabolist styled as a professional demon hunter who has watched 2e essentially axe various core aspects of that character as viable player options time and again (Asmodeus no longer allowing non-evil worshipers, oracles having their curse strictly tied to their mystery rather than being separate choices, the already minimal conflict between devils and demons and the broader conflict between Order and Chaos being completely sidelined in favor of Good vs. Evil at every turn), the (admittedly hypothetical) loss of Asmodeus feels like yet another gut punch and just further confirmation that I'll never be able to play that character again.
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*Though in my case, it's more of a situation where Asmodeus died in secret some time ago due to ancient unhealable wounds from his original fall (something he had known would happen for eons and had long since come to terms with) and the various members of the court of Nessus (Adramalech, Phongor, Martinet, Baalberith, etc.) have been doing what they can to keep Baator running according to the plans Asmodeus left to them without letting knowledge of his death leak to anyone beyond their inner circle out of a twisted sense of loyalty, their own ambitions for power, a fear of what will happen to them if/when the status quo crumbles, etc.
Only now, conflicts between the other Lords of Nine (Belial invading Stygia, Fierana promptly stabbing him in the back in a bid to fully come into her own as sole ruler of Phlegethos, Levistus using the chaos to finally escape his iceberg prison and setting his own bid for power into motion by calling in debts owed to him by Mephistopheles, etc.) are effectively kicking off the early stages of The Reckoning: Part Deux right as internal divisions (mainly between Adramalech and Phongor) are coming to a head and the whole thing is on the verge of falling apart at the seams.
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Iomedae dying and Arazni taking over as "the Crusader Goddess" definitely crossed my mind as a possibility. It's now less important that the "Crusader Goddess" is "Lawful Good" since that's not even a thing anymore, and Arazni was Aroden's Herald first.
Keeping Arazni's nature of "survive, no matter what you have to do" and "hurt people hurt people" in that role would be a little edgy, but not more than is normal for Pathfinder from time to time.
Even if alignment itself is going away, I see Iomedae still filling an important goddess niche. Arazni is a VERY different god that I don't see having a whole lot in common with Iomedae, and I wouldn't want her to lose those aspects to make her a better fit.
What would be interesting to see, even if I don't think is likely, is for Urgathoa to die and for Arazni to replace her as a new Goddess of Undeath. With Alignment going away and Paizo seemingly stepping a bit back from Undead = evil in 99% of cases, this could have some great story potential. Urgathoa feels a lot more generic than Arazni in regards to undeath, So Arazni getting promoted to Core 20 WOULD improve the god roster.
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For the Sarenrae crowd: who would replace her as the main sun deity? Her command over both that and redemption feel like pretty essential pillars, so she'd need someone to inherit them.
There might be something with the Old Sun Gods of Mzali there, but I'm just not sure I see it.
Desna, maybe? The Sun IS a star after all, and apparently Sarenrae and Desna have had friendly debates as to what separates the two categories and where those categories overlap. Plus, as they're BOTH two of James Jacob's favorites, it might make sense that he'd want her to go out on his terms, narratively speaking, and the survival of one may lessen the sting of the loss for both him and the community as a whole.
If they DO decide to have Sarenrae make the ultimate sacrifice to save the Golarion she loves, it'd be fittingly tragic for Desna to take up her lover's command of the sun and of hope to ensure it doesn't go out and to honor her memory much like she does with Curchanus' and ohgodImademyselfsadnow.
I feel like the deity to die has to have a certain combination of popularity and story potential. You want to kill someone people care about (but maybe not too much), but also someone that has lore implications. Gozreh's death would mean the wilds are "wilder," but I don't see any big stories coming from that. And killing off an unpopular god means the player base doesn't care. I feel like most evil deities fall under this, as PCs don't tend to worship them (Apart from Asmodeus).
And, some deities are just too much a cornerstone of the setting. You just don't off Sarenrae or Pharasma within the same edition. It'd have too many ramifications for continuity. Also for PFS play. Imagine saying to all the players you can't be a cleric of Nethys anymore (not without immediately giving a replacement deity).
So IMHO there needs to be a Goldilocks deity that people will miss, but not too much, with interesting ramifications, but won't upset the playerbase too much.
My bet is on one of the evil deities that you can't worship anyway. All the other deities have their fanbase. Asmodeus is problematic for OGL, but people like him too much, however interesting the succession for Hell might be. I've never once cared for Lamashtu and I don't see any interesting story developments. Norgorber is a popular villain deity, but I could see it working. Rovagug is the same as Lamashtu, but at least he has lore implications. Urgathoa is a cool undead deity and has interesting lore stuff as mentioned before. And if Zon-Kuthon dies, he might get absorbed into Zon-Shelyn, thought IMHO it's a bit lame to say "a deity dies!" and mention Zon-Shelyn in the same speech if they're connected.
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For the Sarenrae crowd: who would replace her as the main sun deity?Desna, maybe? The Sun IS a star after all, and apparently Sarenrae and Desna have had friendly debates as to what separates the two categories and where those categories overlap. .
Not what you asked and a bit of an off topic aside, but its implied in the Windsong Testaments that the main difference between stars and suns is that the latter are the stars which Sarenrae chose to bear life after Desna created them. This presumably has something to do with a star's status regarding the portal to Creation's Forge at its heart.
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Not what you asked and a bit of an off topic aside, but its implied in the Windsong Testaments that the main difference between stars and suns is that the latter are the stars which Sarenrae chose to bear life after Desna created them. This presumably has something to do with a star's status regarding the portal to Creation's Forge at its heart.For the Sarenrae crowd: who would replace her as the main sun deity?Desna, maybe? The Sun IS a star after all, and apparently Sarenrae and Desna have had friendly debates as to what separates the two categories and where those categories overlap. .
Huh. Neat!
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Couple thoughts.
I think a fake out is in line. It looks like sarenrae, but then Torag takes the deathblow for her satisfies multiple criteria.
Maybe more than one die? Can we rule out a big shake-up? Adventure arc opens with a good god dying then the PCs take revenge?
Are we certain aroden is dead? I know one guy who doubts.
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Yeah, I think the Sarenrae thing is a fakeout. She might "die" during the story, but it would be impossible to convince people that the fire goddess is really dead for good, what with "rise from the ashes" being a fundamental part of the nature of fire. Like everybody walking around on Golarion is primarily made out of "stuff expelled by exploding dead stars" (like this is where Oxygen comes from.) I mean, the Sun does rise and set every day throughout the universe so "temporary absence" is also part of her nature.
The only way I would buy Sarenrae dying for good is if they took out basically the entire Core 20.
If they printed a big splash page with "[DEITY] IS DEAD" the only name that would get me to roll my eyes and think "yeah, sure" is Sarenrae.
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I wonder how the deity will die?
I will find it hilarious if somehow Aroden post his death causes another deity to die thanks to his amazing short term planning without caring for long term consequences :'D
(I also wonder if this war is long term consequence of Iomedae's minor intervention during wrath of the righteous)
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I feel like Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Desna are too big a part of Golarion product identity. For a game trying to carve its own niche as distinct from D&D, killing them off would be bold but also feel counterproductive, imo. My gut reaction is that killing any of them off would just feel a little disappointing more than anything else.
Cayden, Erastil, Gozreh, Irori, and Norgorber on the other hand feel too safe to me. That is, they're core deities but they're kind of self contained in terms of their spheres of influence. My gut reaction to someone suggesting Gozreh die was a sort of "yeah okay I guess" in the sense that you could kill them off and then just kind of go back to business as usual. To some extent I could include Iomedae (because lawful good paladin-y god is a space with lots of options), Lamashtu, and Nethys here too, but I feel like the stories you can tell with their deaths are slightly more obvious.
Abadar kind of feels like one of the most... mortal-relevant deities given his portfolio and I think that could make it a really big deal if he's offed, but I also feel like he's fairly significant product identity for Golarion too... and while I know they've already said there's no guarantee of parity, it would feel weird for him to not exist in PF2 given his significant presence in SF.
Urgathoa dying for real would be interesting in the sense that it's the god of cheating death finally running out of time, but something about it doesn't quite feel satisfying to me.
Calistria could be the one, but to some extent I think she has similar problems to my first two groups in that she's good product identity (there isn't a clear analog to her that I can think of) and she's somewhat in her own sphere.
Maybe one of the two above offs the other and absorbs their portfolio? They do compete.
Torag I could also kind of see. We've had a dwarf period recently, which puts him in the public eye, and him being the dwarfiest of dwarven deities means his death would have both serious repercussions and create space to change dwarven dynamics if Paizo wanted to. It's possible.
Asmodeus, Pharasma, and Rovagug strike me as the most interesting, because they're all extremely central figures to Golarion's mythology and prophecy... but prophecy being broken is a central theme to Lost Omens anyways. Prophecy being broken means Rovagug's role in the end of the world is no longer certain, which means maybe now he can die. Pharasma being the lynchpin of the setting having an Aroden moment would likewise be huge. Though of the three Asmodeus seems the most likely to me, because of the D&D connection and the story writing opportunities when it comes to Hell, Cheliax, and the rest of the world.
The thing that I keep coming back to is that the stated reason for this is along the lines of "allows them to tell more interesting stories" going forward, which suggests to me that it can't be Rovagug or Pharasma.
Since "the lack of a universe destroying monster caged in Golarion whose influence is sometimes corrupting" doesn't make anything more interesting, this would be an "everybody's lives have improved" sort of thing. Nor does "the previously omniscient death goddess who is suddenly less omniscient is replaced by a death goddess who is not previously omniscient" seem to open up a lot of possibilities. Like for the most part Pharasma just does her job, which someone else would do if she wasn't around. Like what's Pharasma about these days? Insisting that people's births, lives, and deaths are worthy of dignity and sorting soul stuff into the plane it matches.
I think the future of Golarion is already maximally uncertain what with the Omens getting Lost. Like "Rovagug dying" just reinforces "we don't know what's going to happen" which is a thing we already knew (fate/prophecy being broken in modern Golarion being a metatextual reference to how this is a game that supports many potential outcomes depending on what the players do.) I do not see how "no more Rovagug" could open up a bunch of stories that we cannot presently tell.
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The thing that I keep coming back to is that the stated reason for this is along the lines of "allows them to tell more interesting stories" going forward, which suggests to me that it can't be Rovagug or Pharasma.
For me I think both are somewhat reasonable targets because to some extent they're stabilizing figures in Golarion. Pharasma is the centerpiece of the cosmology, the first. Rovagug is the only thing that's ever united the gods in the past and fear of his escape hangs over everything else.
In both cases removing those elements open up some potential by removing those stabilizing elements.
That said I wouldn't put money on either of them being the ones, that's just why I think it could be compelling.
For the Sarenrae crowd: who would replace her as the main sun deity? Her command over both that and redemption feel like pretty essential pillars, so she'd need someone to inherit them.
There might be something with the Old Sun Gods of Mzali there, but I'm just not sure I see it.
Paizo is going to have to figure some odd issue at hand regarding it. Spoilers for In Glorious Battle....
And before anyone wonders how I know this event kicked off already and people were wondering what was going to happen to this mysterious god before the announcement. In Glorious Battle....
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooo................. I just got the sun thing. That's so dam devious Paizo. That's so dam devious. I don't think I would have ever figured it out.
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Yeah, I think the Sarenrae thing is a fakeout. She might "die" during the story, but it would be impossible to convince people that the fire goddess is really dead for good, what with "rise from the ashes" being a fundamental part of the nature of fire. Like everybody walking around on Golarion is primarily made out of "stuff expelled by exploding dead stars" (like this is where Oxygen comes from.) I mean, the Sun does rise and set every day throughout the universe so "temporary absence" is also part of her nature.
The only way I would buy Sarenrae dying for good is if they took out basically the entire Core 20.
If they printed a big splash page with "[DEITY] IS DEAD" the only name that would get me to roll my eyes and think "yeah, sure" is Sarenrae.
I'm just really, REALLY paranoid about that "They watch the Sun die" bit from Stolen Fate.
If that DOESN'T mean Sarenrae, the core 20 deity OF the sun is going to die, what DOES it mean?!
Yeah, I think the Sarenrae thing is a fakeout. She might "die" during the story, but it would be impossible to convince people that the fire goddess is really dead for good, what with "rise from the ashes" being a fundamental part of the nature of fire. Like everybody walking around on Golarion is primarily made out of "stuff expelled by exploding dead stars" (like this is where Oxygen comes from.) I mean, the Sun does rise and set every day throughout the universe so "temporary absence" is also part of her nature.
The only way I would buy Sarenrae dying for good is if they took out basically the entire Core 20.
If they printed a big splash page with "[DEITY] IS DEAD" the only name that would get me to roll my eyes and think "yeah, sure" is Sarenrae.
I'm just really, REALLY paranoid about that "They watch the Sun die" bit from Stolen Fate.
If that DOESN'T mean Sarenrae, the core 20 deity OF the sun is going to die, what DOES it mean?!
I have spoiled the answer as to the identity of the sun or if it isn't then its one hell of a dam coincidence.
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My money is on not one, not two but three gods end up dying in the Godswar Part Deux:
For me, it's clear why Asmodeus, Norgorber, and Sarenrae are top picks for the chopping block. Think about it: Asmodeus isn't just some devil, he's the big boss of Hell. Knock him out, and you've got a power vacuum that'll shake both the infernal and mortal worlds. Then there's Norgorber, the mastermind of secrets. With him gone, all those hidden plots and shadowy deals? They'd come crashing down. And Sarenrae? She's the light in the darkness, the beacon of hope. Losing her would be a gut punch to faith and goodness everywhere. Now, here's a twist: given the old history between Sarenrae and Asmodeus, what if their ends are tied to one another? Maybe a final showdown, a last-ditch effort to save or condemn, leading to a mutual downfall. Toss in ties to D&D for Asmodeus, put it all together, and you've got a trio whose fates could redefine Golarion's future. It's a bold move, but one that could lead to some epic roleplaying adventuring!
Shared this in the other thread on the topic, but want to make sure as many people as possible see it.
I made a ranked choice poll for people vote on who they think it will be. You can vote in the poll here.
Once you take the poll, that link should redirect you to the results, but here is the results page directly.
Over 300 people have voted so far, and it looks like Asmodeus, Torag, and Shelyn are in the lead. Calistria is the only deity that no one has picked as their first choice for most likely to die.
Sarenrae dying would really suck given the number of Sarenrae characters I have. That's my favorite Golarion deity. If they kill Sarenrae, it better be a worthy death doing something absolutely spectacularly self-sacrificing to save the world.
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I'm just really, REALLY paranoid about that "They watch the Sun die" bit from Stolen Fate.
If that DOESN'T mean Sarenrae, the core 20 deity OF the sun is going to die, what DOES it mean?!
I have spoiled the answer as to the identity of the sun or if it isn't then its one hell of a dam coincidence.
** spoiler omitted **
"Watch the Sun Die" could easily refer to Tar-Baphon taking revenge on the orcs of Belkzen (and specifically the Burning Sun tribe) for rebuffing his "generous" offer to join his legions.
Like it's high time Tar-Baphon did *something* and it needn't be directly related to a god dying.
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I'm just really, REALLY paranoid about that "They watch the Sun die" bit from Stolen Fate.
If that DOESN'T mean Sarenrae, the core 20 deity OF the sun is going to die, what DOES it mean?!
I have spoiled the answer as to the identity of the sun or if it isn't then its one hell of a dam coincidence.
** spoiler omitted **"Watch the Sun Die" could easily refer to Tar-Baphon taking revenge on the orcs of Belkzen (and specifically the Burning Sun tribe) for rebuffing his "generous" offer to join his legions.
Like it's high time Tar-Baphon did *something* and it needn't be directly related to a god dying.
I don't know, when did that PFS scenario come out? If it came out before The Worst of All Possible Worlds then it wouldn't make a lot of sense, it's got a vision of the FUTURE, not the present.
And if it DID come out after the AP book, then it feels like it's too minor an event, like it wasn't important enough to merit at LEAST a 3-part AP of its own. Especially with a real lack of buildup, kind of like how Night of the Gray Death feels like the finale of an AP no one bothered to write. And frankly I'm also frustrated with big setting changes like that getting stuck in Organized Play scenarios I'll never get to participate in (like what happened with Ranginori, and made even worse by the fact that the other Elemental Lords got freed off-screen)!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just really, REALLY paranoid about that "They watch the Sun die" bit from Stolen Fate.
If that DOESN'T mean Sarenrae, the core 20 deity OF the sun is going to die, what DOES it mean?!
I have spoiled the answer as to the identity of the sun or if it isn't then its one hell of a dam coincidence.
** spoiler omitted **"Watch the Sun Die" could easily refer to Tar-Baphon taking revenge on the orcs of Belkzen (and specifically the Burning Sun tribe) for rebuffing his "generous" offer to join his legions.
Like it's high time Tar-Baphon did *something* and it needn't be directly related to a god dying.
I don't know, when did that PFS scenario come out? If it came out before The Worst of All Possible Worlds then it wouldn't make a lot of sense, it's got a vision of the FUTURE, not the present.
And if it DID come out after the AP book, then it feels like it's too minor an event, like it wasn't important enough to merit at LEAST a 3-part AP of its own. Especially with a real lack of buildup, kind of like how Night of the Gray Death feels like the finale of an AP no one bothered to write. And frankly I'm also frustrated with big setting changes like that getting stuck in Organized Play scenarios I'll never get to participate in (like what happened with Ranginori, and made even worse by the fact that the other Elemental Lords got freed off-screen)!
It's written by one of PF2's Creative Directors, it's safe to assume he knows the context it would come out in. And I'm not sure why you'll "never get to participate in" a scenario that costs $6 to buy and run for your table.
PFS Scenarios are one content stream of many, alongside the Adventures/APs and books. They aren't going away, and are a key part of Paizo's model for this game.
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I'm just really, REALLY paranoid about that "They watch the Sun die" bit from Stolen Fate.
If that DOESN'T mean Sarenrae, the core 20 deity OF the sun is going to die, what DOES it mean?!
I have spoiled the answer as to the identity of the sun or if it isn't then its one hell of a dam coincidence.
** spoiler omitted **"Watch the Sun Die" could easily refer to Tar-Baphon taking revenge on the orcs of Belkzen (and specifically the Burning Sun tribe) for rebuffing his "generous" offer to join his legions.
Like it's high time Tar-Baphon did *something* and it needn't be directly related to a god dying.
I don't know, when did that PFS scenario come out? If it came out before The Worst of All Possible Worlds then it wouldn't make a lot of sense, it's got a vision of the FUTURE, not the present.
And if it DID come out after the AP book, then it feels like it's too minor an event, like it wasn't important enough to merit at LEAST a 3-part AP of its own. Especially with a real lack of buildup, kind of like how Night of the Gray Death feels like the finale of an AP no one bothered to write. And frankly I'm also frustrated with big setting changes like that getting stuck in Organized Play scenarios I'll never get to participate in (like what happened with Ranginori, and made even worse by the fact that the other Elemental Lords got freed off-screen)!
It's written by one of PF2's Creative Director, it's safe to assume he knows the context it would come out in. And I'm not sure why you'll "never get to participate in" a scenario that costs $6 to buy and run for your table.
PFS Scenarios are one content stream of many, alongside the Adventures/APs and books. They aren't going away, and are a key part of Paizo's model for this game.
I don't have a table, I have a collection of maybe 10 or 11 play-by-posts on these forums and I'm exclusively a player in them because GMing terrifies me.
And PFS games on the forums fill up so fast and move so quickly I can't find a good "in" to start narratively speaking so any character I'd make would feel like they came in to the story midway and isn't invested in the metaplot from the beginning, and no one's going to want to run old scenarios that everyone else has already played just for my benefit. Besides, I have a compulsive need for my characters to fully slot into whatever narrative the game's trying to tell and not feel like an uninvolved third party who just happened to wander into the plot. That's why I like APs, their player guides explicitly communicate what the story's going to be about and the themes you should expect your character's narrative arc to interface with.