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FYI, I checked with Thurston and can confirm that a deity's status in Starfinder has no bearing on the likelihood of their death in Pathfinder. :)
On the other hand, if you do kill off someone who is definitely present in Starfinder, people are going to take that as evidence (intended or not) that Gods can sometimes come back from the dead, or that death doesn't necessarily stick when you're divine.
People are going to start looking for Ihys, Curchanus, Acavna, and Aroden to show up again somewhere down the line.
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I feel Nethyis is ok to ditch. Having him blow himself up due to crazy spell casting would be in character and I never really found him interesting
Gotta say I agree. I never found Nethys to have any recognizable personality traits beyond "ooh, he be cray-cray!". Gozreh also is a big "meh" among the big 20 for me. At least the rest of them have some interesting personality traits.
Obviously I want Nocticula to step up and become one of the big 20. :p
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And this event will definitely open up the world for new stories, new villains, new heroes, and new conflicts. Which, at the end of the day, are the things we're all here for.
I was already considering the possibility before, but reading this post convinced me that it will be Pharasma.
Only thing big enough IMO to impact everyone everywhere. Could be linked to the Stolen Fate AP.
A distant second would be Asmodeus : Hell thrown in disarray, Cheliax losing its patron god again ...
Even more distant third : Rovagug.
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I propose actually increasing the core deity number to 25. I'd really love to see Nocticula, Besmara, Milani and Kurgess among the group of mayor deities. :p
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Milani. . . among the group of mayor deities.I'd hate to see her sell out like this.
She threw it on the ground.
A distant second would be Asmodeus : Hell thrown in disarray, Cheliax losing its patron god again ...
I think this is probably a reason it won't be Asmodeus. Cheliax has had its narrative of decline. After losing Sargava and Ravounel and surviving an Iomedean revolt, the story going forward should be about it clawing back every ounce of power it can by any means necessary. Losing Asmodeus would just be another blow to the clear and unambiguous Bad Guy Nation, possibly a decapitating one. If Paizo were going to see Cheliax lose its diabolic patronage they would have done it with the setting revamp.
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It's just occurred to me that, with 2e moving away from static alignment as a concept, killing off Pharasma, the goddess who objectively measures it, is the perfect way to lore-justify a mechanical change. It also allows Paizo to make exciting new changes to how their afterlife works, and fix some peoples' biggest criticisms with it, being that it feels like mortals are just fuel or the building blocks of the universe - without Pharasma, you could have a bunch of gods judging different groups of followers (the fact that Paizo brought in Osiris, but omitted his role as principal judge of the afterlife because Pharasma already fills that niche, has always rankled), or have her Psychopomp Ushers step up as a kind of collective tribunal. And without Pharasma's central role, the Daemons of Abaddon could see an opportunity to more firmly establish themselves alongside both Hell and the Abyss/Outer Rifts (they feel kinda obscure at the moment).
But also if Pharasma dies, there goes the last person who probably knows for sure what actually happened to Aroden.
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clearly if pharasma goes ssillameshnik(sp?) would take over. they already supersede pharasma when they feel like it.
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Couple thoughts.
I think a fake out is in line. It looks like sarenrae, but then Torag takes the deathblow for her satisfies multiple criteria.
Maybe more than one die? Can we rule out a big shake-up? Adventure arc opens with a good god dying then the PCs take revenge?
Are we certain aroden is dead? I know one guy who doubts.
clearly if pharasma goes ssillameshnik(sp?) would take over. they already supersede pharasma when they feel like it.
You got the crazy spelling almost correct. :)
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...
I think a fake out is in line.
...
Given that the Age of Lost Omens is all about the new unreliability of prophecy, it wouldn't be out of line for at least one of the three visions to be outright incorrect. So I share your suspicion that there might be a "fake out" of some sort.
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It's just occurred to me that, with 2e moving away from static alignment as a concept, killing off Pharasma, the goddess who objectively measures it, is the perfect way to lore-justify a mechanical change. It also allows Paizo to make exciting new changes to how their afterlife works, and fix some peoples' biggest criticisms with it, being that it feels like mortals are just fuel or the building blocks of the universe -
But also if Pharasma dies, there goes the last person who probably knows for sure what actually happened to Aroden.
THe fate of mortal souls seems a bit more ingrained into the setting than simply a whim of Pharasma. If Pharasma died her daughter would probably take her place, and there really wouldn't be a big shake-up I would imagine.
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THe fate of mortal souls seems a bit more ingrained into the setting than simply a whim of Pharasma. If Pharasma died her daughter would probably take her place, and there really wouldn't be a big shake-up I would imagine.It's just occurred to me that, with 2e moving away from static alignment as a concept, killing off Pharasma, the goddess who objectively measures it, is the perfect way to lore-justify a mechanical change. It also allows Paizo to make exciting new changes to how their afterlife works, and fix some peoples' biggest criticisms with it, being that it feels like mortals are just fuel or the building blocks of the universe -
But also if Pharasma dies, there goes the last person who probably knows for sure what actually happened to Aroden.
Huh. I didn't know about her daughter Atropos. The fact that Atropos typically appears as a Nosoi with a peacock tail makes me wonder if the vision about a Phoenix with a peacock tail might refer to her rather than Xanderghul.
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I think this is probably a reason it won't be Asmodeus. Cheliax has had its narrative of decline. After losing Sargava and Ravounel and surviving an Iomedean revolt, the story going forward should be about it clawing back every ounce of power it can by any means necessary.
Like, for instance, strengthening its own position in the Hellish hierarchy and perhaps gaining some freedom within its contractual strictures, while at the same time deepening its own damnation, by helping the Lord of the Eighth, the first true devil, or the Lord of the Fifth, the asura Quisling, assassinate the Lord of the Ninth, the usurper from Heaven?
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The killer of the deity might be the Orc chieftain who died battling Tar-Baphon's minions.
In such a case, the deity could be Urgathoa. Her death could open the setting to undead not being evil by default anymore and spell the beginning of the end for the Whispering Tyrant.
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I don't expect it to happen, but "Asmodeus beefs it, Hell and Cheliax are both plunged into chaos, and we see other fiends rise up in prominence to further help break away from OGL fantasy identities" would be lovely. Maybe a more militant Hell led by Asuras could be fun?
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I think it might be Asmodeus, who is replaced with Xanderghul.
1. Xanderghul was already a divine being with worshipers
2. Divine Domains: Xanderghul- Evil, Law, Trickery, Deception, Tyranny. Asmodeus- Evil, Fire, Law, Magic, Trickery, Arcane, Ash, Deception, Devil, Devine, Legislation, Smoke
3. Alignment (from 1E) Lawful Evil for both.
4. Areas of Concern: Asmodeus- Contracts, Pride, Slavery, Tyranny vs. Xanderghul- Mind, Body, Soul. I could easily see Xanderghul claiming Pride & Contracts and keeping Mind & Soul.
5. Upon "dying" Xanderghul transforms into a resplendent being before going to the Boneyard. Which doesn't really sound like dying.
6. Asmodeus has a lot of prophecies about his involvement in future events… but this is the Age of Lost Omens.
So what does a Hell Peacock look like, and I definitely what to see Xanderghul's new look as the Lord of Hell.
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Oh, that feels remarkably possible, wow.
The killer of the deity might be the Orc chieftain who died battling Tar-Baphon's minions.
In such a case, the deity could be Urgathoa. Her death could open the setting to undead not being evil by default anymore and spell the beginning of the end for the Whispering Tyrant.
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Yeah. I'm a big fan of how much sense that makes.
I wonder if Nex is going to try to usurp Nethys. You wouldn't need to change the acronym on the AoN at least.Can you imagine how pissed Geb would be if that turned out to be the case?!
"Did our millenia-long rivalry mean NOTHING to you?! I waited so long for you, Nex! I THOUGHT WHAT WE HAD WAS SPECIAL!!!"
Then Geb finds out that Nex chose him as his herald, so they can continue to bicker and squabble over magical minutiae for the rest of eternity.
Or Nex replaces Nethys, so Geb schemes to topple Urgathoa to continue their feud on equal footing.
What if Nex and Geb both fuse with Nethys to make a three-part god, a la Triune?
Triune of course being how three different threads of technology reinforce each other in order to build something greater, whereas our Nethys gestalt is about how magic constantly undermines itself for reasons that are are alternatively esoteric, nonsensical, and petty.
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I think it might be Asmodeus, who is replaced with Xanderghul.
1. Xanderghul was already a divine being with worshipers
2. Divine Domains: Xanderghul- Evil, Law, Trickery, Deception, Tyranny. Asmodeus- Evil, Fire, Law, Magic, Trickery, Arcane, Ash, Deception, Devil, Devine, Legislation, Smoke
3. Alignment (from 1E) Lawful Evil for both.
4. Areas of Concern: Asmodeus- Contracts, Pride, Slavery, Tyranny vs. Xanderghul- Mind, Body, Soul. I could easily see Xanderghul claiming Pride & Contracts and keeping Mind & Soul.
5. Upon "dying" Xanderghul transforms into a resplendent being before going to the Boneyard. Which doesn't really sound like dying.
6. Asmodeus has a lot of prophecies about his involvement in future events… but this is the Age of Lost Omens.So what does a Hell Peacock look like, and I definitely what to see Xanderghul's new look as the Lord of Hell.
That...sounds very plausible. It's all been confirmed that Xanderghul is coming back in some form at this point.
God that's so choice. They gotta reveal this stuff soon!
It was all an illusion!
;p
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I wonder if Norgober dies and is broken up to different Gods?
It was all an illusion!
;p
Doombot A clone.
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One question I have is, do we know if they planned out this storyline prior to the OLG disaster?We don't, and likely never will. But Paizo was working to exorcise D&D-isms well before WotC forced their hand, just at a slower pace.
Actually, we do know that this storyline has been in the works for years.
I just hope this isn't like Marvel/DC event comics where authors make decisions to kill off minor characters willy nilly thinking "nobody cares if they die" and using them as canon fodder
We've been thinking about this for literal years and have gone through numerous iterations on the story, setting impacts, etc.
Ultimately, someone will be upset about their favorite deity dying, because every one of the core 20 is someone's favorite, and emotional impact requires emotional investment. And we have no intention of doing a "Civil War" or "Spellplague" that makes the setting we all love unrecognizable. But we do want to do big things, tell big stories, and let the PCs see the world change around them through events that they get to experience and even influence via our rulebooks, adventures, and novels.
And this event will definitely open up the world for new stories, new villains, new heroes, and new conflicts. Which, at the end of the day, are the things we're all here for.
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Since we're having an "edition change," I'm going to go with Mystra, even though she doesn't exist in this setting.
I think we will lose either Sarenrae, Urgathoa, Pharasma, or Shelyn.
I can’t imagine Paizo letting us keep a good or largely stabilizing force.
Stairs need conflict.
*stakes.
Stairs work too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I wonder if Norgober dies and is broken up to different Gods?
Idea for this scenario; Nor: The Reaper of Reputation, Gor: The Skinsaw Man, Ber: Master of the Blackfingers.
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When it comes to Northburger(as we lovingly call him in Edgewatch), I've always wanted to see encounter where four high level clerics of Norgorber use avatar spell and each transform into different aspect of Norgorber x'D
Not super related to topic, but I do also like idea of Norgorber splitting into four entities who immediately start plotting against each other for supremacy
When it comes to Northburger(as we lovingly call him in Edgewatch)
Personally I've always wondered if Mr. NoBurger just really likes hot dogs. Meanwhile, it would absolutely not be unbefitting for the most mysterious Starstone ascendant to actually have been 4 raccoons gnomes in a trenchcoat
I wonder if Norgober dies and is broken up to different Gods?Idea for this scenario; Nor: The Reaper of Reputation, Gor: The Skinsaw Man, Ber: Master of the Blackfingers.
Personally, I think Gor should be the Grey Master with it being revealed that in fact Thamir was Father Skinsaw.
What about Urgathoa is either good or stabilizing?I think we will lose either Sarenrae, Urgathoa, Pharasma, or Shelyn.
I can’t imagine Paizo letting us keep a good or largely stabilizing force.
I meant Urgathoa as the exception, with her death as the most likely ‘win’ they could give the forces of stability and/or good on Golarian.
Personally, I think Gor should be the Grey Master with it being revealed that in fact Thamir was Father Skinsaw.I wonder if Norgober dies and is broken up to different Gods?Idea for this scenario; Nor: The Reaper of Reputation, Gor: The Skinsaw Man, Ber: Master of the Blackfingers.
If I was to split up Norgorber into Four different deities. I would probably do something like this:
- Blackfingers: Vorasha
- Father Skinsaw: Ajids
- Gray Master: Thamir
- Reaper of Reputation: Braismois
At least that is how I am currently looking at it. if one has other ideas, that would be cool too.
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I meant Urgathoa as the exception, with her death as the most likely ‘win’ they could give the forces of stability and/or good on Golarian.What about Urgathoa is either good or stabilizing?I think we will lose either Sarenrae, Urgathoa, Pharasma, or Shelyn.
I can’t imagine Paizo letting us keep a good or largely stabilizing force.
If Urgathoa dies and is replaced by Arazni, that could do a lot to open up the idea of less evil undead, something Paizo has been moving towards in PF2E.
Also honestly I just find Arazni a more interesting goddess. Although I am skeptical about this happening is that I think it's more likely that a storyline will kick off with the death/murder of a god, than it being the end of the story. Sort of feels like if Urgathoa is going down, it would be the result of the PCs in some way.
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I meant Urgathoa as the exception, with her death as the most likely ‘win’ they could give the forces of stability and/or good on Golarian.What about Urgathoa is either good or stabilizing?I think we will lose either Sarenrae, Urgathoa, Pharasma, or Shelyn.
I can’t imagine Paizo letting us keep a good or largely stabilizing force.
If Urgathoa dies and is replaced by Arazni, that could do a lot to open up the idea of less evil undead, something Paizo has been moving towards in PF2E.
Also honestly I just find Arazni a more interesting goddess. Although I am skeptical about this happening is that I think it's more likely that a storyline will kick off with the death/murder of a god, than it being the end of the story. Sort of feels like if Urgathoa is going down, it would be the result of the PCs in some way.
I rather feel like both Arazni and Urgathoa are important to showing the range of undead. I really like Arazni's vibe, but I'm not sure if her theme of undead who aren't like that by choice is as powerful if she were the only major undeath goddess. I agree it makes sense to imagine Arazni entering the core 20 by replacing Urgathoa, but it seems to me she works better with a more traditional undeath deity to rebel against.
Besides which, I'm also kind of fond of Urgathoa. She's a deity I can see worshippers shooting for the (false) moral ambiguity with. "I'm not trying to be evil, I just want to live while I'm alive, experience new and diverse pleasures, and never die. Who doesn't want that?"
"Yoh forgot the part where you kill people and eat them, horde food from those less privileged, and embrace atrocity to upset the balance between life and death"
"You say that like peasants are people."
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Personally, I'd like to see a conflict between Rahadoum and Thuvia. It might come from desperate measures to counter desertification or battle against religious group between the border of Thuvia and Rahadoum brings two nations at war, with Rahadoum requiring aid from druids and warriors of Mwangi nations and Thuvia making alliances with Cheliax and Mediopalti Island. Possibly there would be additional input to the conflict from Katapesh and Osirion.
In these wars I'd see death of Sarenrae, the scorching sun above the Golden Road desert. Perhaps due to extreme magic aquired by Rahadoum or by her sacrifice to end the war and save Rahadoum and Thuvia from further conflict. There might be eclipse for hundred days while deities will find solution to the trouble.
I'm sligtly upset that we're losing one of the core deities. But from objective point of view, I see it's exciting storytelling and a fine way to move world onward.
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One reason to disfavor Urgathoa is that she's not just the goddess of undeath and hedonism, she's also the goddess of disease. Like her most faithful are people who will just go around spreading plagues for the glory of the pallid princess.
For a group of developers and players who experienced a global pandemic only recently, that whole aspect of Urgathoa is a lot less fun.
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Sidenote, I've recently become fan of Horseman of Conquest so Horseman of Pestilence to me is just people missing the point with "doesn't that overlap with war" as if half of seven deadly sins weren't overlapping already
(how is gluttony, greed and envy meaningfully different? ;P What about lust? Lust sin isn't even purely about sex, its also about desire in general. They removed Vainglory and Apathy and combined them with Pride and Sloth, but not the rest of combinables)
I meant Urgathoa as the exception, with her death as the most likely ‘win’ they could give the forces of stability and/or good on Golarian.What about Urgathoa is either good or stabilizing?I think we will lose either Sarenrae, Urgathoa, Pharasma, or Shelyn.
I can’t imagine Paizo letting us keep a good or largely stabilizing force.
If Urgathoa dies and is replaced by Arazni, that could do a lot to open up the idea of less evil undead, something Paizo has been moving towards in PF2E.
Also honestly I just find Arazni a more interesting goddess. Although I am skeptical about this happening is that I think it's more likely that a storyline will kick off with the death/murder of a god, than it being the end of the story. Sort of feels like if Urgathoa is going down, it would be the result of the PCs in some way.
I rather feel like both Arazni and Urgathoa are important to showing the range of undead. I really like Arazni's vibe, but I'm not sure if her theme of undead who aren't like that by choice is as powerful if she were the only major undeath goddess. I agree it makes sense to imagine Arazni entering the core 20 by replacing Urgathoa, but it seems to me she works better with a more traditional undeath deity to rebel against.
Besides which, I'm also kind of fond of Urgathoa. She's a deity I can see worshippers shooting for the (false) moral ambiguity with. "I'm not trying to be evil, I just want to live while I'm alive, experience new and diverse pleasures, and never die. Who doesn't want that?"
"Yoh forgot the part where you kill people and eat them, horde food from those less privileged, and embrace atrocity to upset the balance between life and death"
"You say that like peasants are people."
Perhaps an easing up on how Pharesma and the Inevitables knuckle down on those who extend their lives with magic or other ways. If someone lives for say 100 past their usual lifespan, is that so disruptive? +100 years is nothing to said outsiders and that person got tired of life and passed on(Think of it like The Good Place, where people could exist in paradise as long as they wanted before walking through a door to elsewhere)
No doubt that would hare off into a whole other thread on how long does a person want? For example, are we really mentally prepared to live to 200?
I'm expecting Asmodeus to go, just because he's a D&D refugee with only minor mythological fame beyond RPGs.