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1. If they are adventuring in a known hostile area (such as most dungeons) then having weapons out is a given for me. If they are in a typically non-hostile area (such as walking in a city or using public transport like a ship) then they do not have their weapons out.
2. As for the Kinetic Aura, I plan to treat this similar to the Summoner's Eidolon. Since it is harmless, unless there is a reason for it to be an issue (such as a social situation) I will allow them to walk around with it active.
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I think it's reasonable for the Earth/Metal/Wood kineticist to walk around with their armor on (it's a 10 minute impulse). They could only ever activate that impulse (like any other impulse) if they had their element channeled at the time. Your kinetic aura stays up until one of the following happens:
-You use an overflow impulse.
-You fall unconscious.
-You choose to dismiss it.
So I think it's reasonable for a Kineticist to walk around with their gate open in a dungeon. The one caveat is that a kinetic aura is probably fantastically unsubtle, so it probably precludes being stealthy in some cases.
Given that air's skill is stealth with the smuggler feat I feel negatively effecting stealth because of kinetic aura wouldn't be great unless you think that having air involved makes every other element combined with it less noticable, this does remind me of one thing I wanted of just more art of what kinetic aura actually looks like, the only one I really remember seeing is just Yoon
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Given that air's skill is stealth with the smuggler feat I feel negatively effecting stealth because of kinetic aura wouldn't be great unless you think that having air involved makes every other element combined with it less noticable, this does remind me of one thing I wanted of just more art of what kinetic aura actually looks like, the only one I really remember seeing is just Yoon
Clear as Air specifically conceals your kinetic aura "though any special effects of your aura might give away your location".
So normally "you have swirling winds around you at all times" might tip people off to your presence particularly in a context where one would not expect wind. Though wind should be the subtlest element for these purposes.
It is a valid tradeoff I feel to choose between "being stealthy before combat" and "having your aura active so you can use an overflow impulse immediately."
Manifesting your kinetic aura tells the anyone who know what it means that your a kinetesist and what elements you have which is something you might not always want to advertise.
Unless of course you are about to meet Duchess Primproper. Important to appear ready for anything and all that…
Given that air's skill is stealth with the smuggler feat I feel negatively effecting stealth because of kinetic aura wouldn't be great unless you think that having air involved makes every other element combined with it less noticable, this does remind me of one thing I wanted of just more art of what kinetic aura actually looks like, the only one I really remember seeing is just YoonClear as Air specifically conceals your kinetic aura "though any special effects of your aura might give away your location".
So normally "you have swirling winds around you at all times" might tip people off to your presence particularly in a context where one would not expect wind. Though wind should be the subtlest element for these purposes.
It is a valid tradeoff I feel to choose between "being stealthy before combat" and "having your aura active so you can use an overflow impulse immediately."
I'm talking specifically the skill junction not the invisibility impulse, I'm not actually clear on if the feat that's part of that requires requires the aura active to get (likely not so it probably wasn't worth me mentioning) but the aura does need to be on for the bonus to the skill, in this case stealth, so I think saying that the aura being on makes it harder to sneak does not really mesh with that much when the kineticist with the air skill junction could very well also be running around with fire and metal in their aura
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1. If they are adventuring in a known hostile area (such as most dungeons) then having weapons out is a given for me. If they are in a typically non-hostile area (such as walking in a city or using public transport like a ship) then they do not have their weapons out.
2. As for the Kinetic Aura, I plan to treat this similar to the Summoner's Eidolon. Since it is harmless, unless there is a reason for it to be an issue (such as a social situation) I will allow them to walk around with it active.
I'd be a little hesitant to allow auras in the town square. Most NPCs won't know it harmless, and it technically is still the equivalent of walking around with a weapon drawn.
I feel there's a difference between walking around with scary auras of steel and flame and having a creature just existing by you, like an eidolon or animal companion. Though if you're using fiends or undead for your buddy that could cause some unrest.
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1. If they are adventuring in a known hostile area (such as most dungeons) then having weapons out is a given for me. If they are in a typically non-hostile area (such as walking in a city or using public transport like a ship) then they do not have their weapons out.
2. As for the Kinetic Aura, I plan to treat this similar to the Summoner's Eidolon. Since it is harmless, unless there is a reason for it to be an issue (such as a social situation) I will allow them to walk around with it active.
I'd be a little hesitant to allow auras in the town square. Most NPCs won't know it harmless, and it technically is still the equivalent of walking around with a weapon drawn.
I feel there's a difference between walking around with scary auras of steel and flame and having a creature just existing by you, like an eidolon or animal companion. Though if you're using fiends or undead for your buddy that could cause some unrest.
while I totally agree here, one should probably also consider what element Aura one is using
People are probably more wary of auras of Flame, Grit, Rust and Metal splinters then a gentle breeze, some globs of water or whirling flower petals
As GM I probably will rules this similar to keep your weapon at hand.
Imagine a cop holding a weapon at hand all time. No matter how do you know that he/she is in your side to protect the people he/she is still intimidating.
IMO same happens to adventurers. Walking around with their weapons ready wont make the best impression and I make the same reference for kineticists waking around with fire, rocks, water, metal and even wood (what are the aura effects of wood?). The air can be an exception because air is naturally invisible and air kineticist are developed to be more stealth.
Normally if the players choose to walk around in town with their weapons at hand I usually give them +1 circumstance bonus to intimidation and -1 circumstance penalty to diplomacy checks. I probably will do the same for kineticists with most auras enable because most people will be afraid or incommoded to interact with someone with elements surround it all time, specially if they know that element cold be trowed at any time.
In many places this could attract the authority attention too or may have a law forbidding it.
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I would note that "being able to start combat with your aura up" is actually less important for Kineticists than "being able to have your weapon drawn" is for normal people. Since drawing a weapon costs an action that you don't get refunded, whereas channeling your elements gives you a free blast or one action impulse.
Really the only thing that being able to start combat with your gate open is that you can start the fight with an overflow impulse. There are absolutely times when you'd want to do that (like you have a *perfect* wall placement available), but this doesn't seem like a thing you should do when you've scouted what's ahead and can prepare for it more than a "just in case" thing.
Really the only thing that being able to start combat with your gate open is that you can start the fight with an overflow impulse. There are absolutely times when you'd want to do that (like you have a *perfect* wall placement available), but this doesn't seem like a thing you should do when you've scouted what's ahead and can prepare for it more than a "just in case" thing.
It's also necessary if you want to start combat with an infusion blast (e.g. weapon infusion for a trait or range, or two-element infusion to apply special riders from one or both elements like Desert Winds static damage bonus on top of an earth d8 blast) plus a two action impulse.
You also can't use the Pacifying Infusion option from Safe Elements (exclude targets from an active non-aura/stance impulse, make damage nonlethal) if your gate isn't open.
I would note that "being able to start combat with your aura up" is actually less important for Kineticists than "being able to have your weapon drawn" is for normal people. Since drawing a weapon costs an action that you don't get refunded, whereas channeling your elements gives you a free blast or one action impulse.
A free blast or one action STANCE impulse. Don't want to risk confusing anyone into thinking kineticists are more powerful than they are.
tbf, are there any 1 action NON stance/blast impulses
The Armors, which you can (and should) maintain out of combat.
Whisper in the Wind which is a non-combat ability.Eternal Torch which is a non-combat ability
Plate in Treasure which has some combat application to give other people specific materials for their weapons.
The two healing ones (Ocean's Balm and Fresh Produce) which probably aren't needed on turn 1.
Worth noting that impulses aren't exploration activities. So I'm not sure if you actually can maintain any impulses out of combat like you can a spell (which has its own exploration activity)
Since the duration will run out.
A strict "no impulses outside of encounter mode" is a serious nerf to the impulses that are fundamentally about utility. Like the air one that casts message, or the clause in igneogenesis that lets you spend an hour to make it permanent, or the fire ability to create permanent magical orbiting light sources.
So I'm pretty sure you're supposed to be able to use impulses outside of combat.
I don't see "I'm going to turn on my armor" is more inappropriate for exploration mode than "I'm going to use eternal torch."
so, as a player, at some time in the future, we will play Fists of Ruby Phoenix, so my Toph will always walk around with her aura on. As a GM I would allow it within the obvious and logic, in a medieval fantasy world, and looking at Hollywood here lol, wouldn't see it as a problem as long as they behaved. I remember that a D&D adventure had something about tying a ribbon on the scabbards of the weapons and on the hands of the casters, (just to "make it difficult" to cast...), maybe I would do something similar.
Not strict RAW for this either, but I also allow stances - especially Monk stances - to be maintained as an exploration activity. Similar to how Defend lets you start combat with your shield raised.
And since Monk stances are also the equivalent of drawing a weapon and carrying it around, I would think that if Kineticist has something similar, that they should be allowed to do the same.
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Worth noting that impulses aren't exploration activities. So I'm not sure if you actually can maintain any impulses out of combat like you can a spell (which has its own exploration activity)
Since the duration will run out.
Improvising New Activities, Gamemastery Guide pg. 19, has this covered: not everything is specifically made its own activity, nor should it, and it not being an activity doesn't mean it can't be done outside of combat.
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Also, isn't it the intent that impulses be treated as spells for all things not specifically stated otherwise?
As such I don't see why we couldn't use the existing exploration activity, Maintain a Spell, to cover it.
Stance trait specifically say that it can't be used outside of an encounter. I'm houseruling that to be that you can't stay in a stance for free outside of an encounter. It costs your exploration activity to do it.
Stance trait specifically say that it can't be used outside of an encounter. I'm houseruling that to be that you can't stay in a stance for free outside of an encounter. It costs your exploration activity to do it.
Sure. "No constant stances in exploration mode" has been a thing since the Pathfinder 2e playtest. But the impulses we're talking about having up outside of combat are things like "the armor impulses" which are not stances. For example "Armor in Earth"'s tags are- Earth, Impulse, Kineticist, Primal. So you can't activate it by channeling your element, but it also has a 10 minute duration so I don't see a reason a character in exploration mode can't activate their armor impulse every so often in a context where they imagine "I could get attacked by something" is plausible.
With kinetic auras just being active in social situations or walking around town, I honestly think it should be fine and not have a default everyone's worried reaction, golarian is a very magic fantasy setting and geniekin could already walk around with things that are similar to what some basic visuals of what the aura could look like as an example both of these undine images on archives of nethys, I also personally read it with the flavour that having the aura up is a more natural feel for a kineticist and with the idea that the aura itself looks dangerous, one of the examples is just some snowflakes around and I feel if you adjudicate based on how dangerous the aura itself appears (especiallygiven that the aura just by itself has no effect on things around like a fire aura isn't giving off any kind of light or anything like that) you kinda invite the game of "how can I describe my aura in the least threatening way while still being true to the elements involved"
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For games that I'm GMing:
Outside of populated areas: mostly fine.
Inside of populated areas: At the least, people are going to give you a wide berth and make more assumptions about you than normal.
However, some of the Gate Junctions might change the above. The Earth, Fire, Metal, Water and Wood Aura Junctions might cause issues in towns, depending on how the player and GM define "enemies" and "allies" and how unattended objects react to those effects. Even if it doesn't have real "mechanical" affects on objects, if you're a walking cloud of dense humidity, you probably won't be welcome in the library.
Or even just NPCs reacting to things like plants springing up from the ground around you, the earth shifting as you walk, ect.
All of the other aura affecting feats/abilities are stance feats, so they don't matter during exploration.
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In terms of if the Rules actually allow it, I don't really think there is TOO much standing in the way other than for things like Stances which have all been intentionally built to have an Action cost that you are supposed to pay in combat when you want to use them.
Much like real life, walking around with visible defenses being present on your person is probably going to be viewed VERY differently depending on the context of the situation, regional politics, how safe the area is (or how it is perceived to be), as well as the specific social setting norms of where you are.
I've been to places where open carry of firearms, tasers, and even certain types of knives/blades was completely normal and accepted pretty much everywhere other than within the grounds/area of law enforcement or government buildings. I've ALSO been to places where if you're even so much as found to possess any of these by authorities you would end up having it confiscated and likely end up with at least a fine or potentially jail time.
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Stance trait specifically say that it can't be used outside of an encounter. I'm houseruling that to be that you can't stay in a stance for free outside of an encounter. It costs your exploration activity to do it.Sure. "No constant stances in exploration mode" has been a thing since the Pathfinder 2e playtest. But the impulses we're talking about having up outside of combat are things like "the armor impulses" which are not stances. For example "Armor in Earth"'s tags are- Earth, Impulse, Kineticist, Primal. So you can't activate it by channeling your element, but it also has a 10 minute duration so I don't see a reason a character in exploration mode can't activate their armor impulse every so often in a context where they imagine "I could get attacked by something" is plausible.
I don't yet have access to the actual rules for Kineticist yet, so I am just having to go off of what others are stating the rules are similar to.
Obviously, any abilities like armor that take minutes to get going are necessarily not going to end when not in combat. They would be completely unusable if that was the ruling.
I think someone earlier asked about using one of the abilities permanently as an exploration activity and whether that would give a permanent out-of-combat fly speed. (Probably not if it says that you have to end the action on the ground. But again, I don't have access to the actual rules text yet.)
As for walking around in public spaces juggling fire, that seems pretty normal. Several types of Oracle have effects that are very magical in nature and quite noticeable by passersby.
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With kinetic auras just being active in social situations or walking around town, I honestly think it should be fine and not have a default everyone's worried reaction, golarian is a very magic fantasy setting and geniekin could already walk around with things that are similar to what some basic visuals of what the aura could look like as an example both of these undine images on archives of nethys, I also personally read it with the flavour that having the aura up is a more natural feel for a kineticist and with the idea that the aura itself looks dangerous, one of the examples is just some snowflakes around and I feel if you adjudicate based on how dangerous the aura itself appears (especiallygiven that the aura just by itself has no effect on things around like a fire aura isn't giving off any kind of light or anything like that) you kinda invite the game of "how can I describe my aura in the least threatening way while still being true to the elements involved"
It is because Golarion is such a high magic setting that I think people would be leery of folks swirling magic around themselves constantly. Your average NPC in the street likely won't have the Nature or Arcana proficiency to understand the distinction between a kinetic aura and a draconic sorcerer that might be casting a Dominate spell on a random merchant of something.
I don't actually know how people to geniekin in the streets, but I wouldn't necessarily assume they get a pass either, at least in less cosmopolitan corners of Golarion.
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Yeah, any time you would allow someone to cast a spell you should allow them to use an impulse. If you would allow someone to use like Bullhorn every so often so you can REMAIN LOUD or Musical Accompaniment so you can have a personal soundtrack or Summon Instrument so they can play along then you should let the Kineticist keep their flying or armor up.
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With kinetic auras just being active in social situations or walking around town, I honestly think it should be fine and not have a default everyone's worried reaction, golarian is a very magic fantasy setting and geniekin could already walk around with things that are similar to what some basic visuals of what the aura could look like as an example both of these undine images on archives of nethys, I also personally read it with the flavour that having the aura up is a more natural feel for a kineticist and with the idea that the aura itself looks dangerous, one of the examples is just some snowflakes around and I feel if you adjudicate based on how dangerous the aura itself appears (especiallygiven that the aura just by itself has no effect on things around like a fire aura isn't giving off any kind of light or anything like that) you kinda invite the game of "how can I describe my aura in the least threatening way while still being true to the elements involved"It is because Golarion is such a high magic setting that I think people would be leery of folks swirling magic around themselves constantly. Your average NPC in the street likely won't have the Nature or Arcana proficiency to understand the distinction between a kinetic aura and a draconic sorcerer that might be casting a Dominate spell on a random merchant of something.
I don't actually know how people to geniekin in the streets, but I wouldn't necessarily assume they get a pass either, at least in less cosmopolitan corners of Golarion.
I feel like the description of "folks swirling magic around themselves" implies an aura visual that is a good deal stronger than some of what is actually given as examples in the book under the kinetic aura section which includes "floating snowflakes" and "splinters dancing in the air" and "colorful wicks of flame", would you also say that a cosmos or tempest oracle should be penalized in a social situation because their hair and clothes "float and drift" or "are blown about by gentle winds" around them which to the average person could appear identical to an air kineticist's aura and as far as such a person knows be equally controllable
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Worth noting that air kineticist is very strong with exploration activity clear as air. Starting every combat at invis (eventually high level invis that doesn't even end on attacking) may be unintentional.
As is "full party flight: the exploration activity" (14th level cyclonic ascent)
I'm honestly unsure.
But I agree with others here that aura should not shut off out of combat.
About intentions I will quote a paragraph of playtest analysis in the blog:
Our ultimate goal is to have a class that feels extremely adept with their elements or elements. They will resemble a non-spellcaster in that they have a small set of tools they’ve very strong with, but also will resemble a spellcaster in their ability to create magical effects and straightforward focus on their impulses. It’s worth noting that, because kineticists have fewer tools, some impulses will just be stronger than comparable spells. Wings of Air from the playtest was often noted as being stronger than fly, but it’s intentional that the kineticist who is fully dedicated to mastering air is better at flying than a wizard who knows many spells and simply prepares one spell slot with a fly spell.
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Wings of Air was the old name of Cyclonic Ascent where in playtest we already found this strange. But the designers confirm in blog and now in the Rage of Elements that the intention is that Kineticist domains their elements better than wizards sometimes and can use them limitlessly.
If you pay attention its nothing so absurd Cyclonic Ascent to carry the party is lvl 14 but Strix get full flight at lvl 13, Sprites and Aasimar/Tiefling get at lvl 17 and casters get 1 hour Heightened versions at lvl 13 to fly one hour per spellslot.
Clear as Air allows to keep invisibility a longer time but this isn't so incredible once that you still to use Stealth to avoid being noticed and probably halfling or goblin rogues will be far more difficult to detect.
Clear as Air specifically says "After you use this impulse, it can’t be used again for 10 minutes" so you can't be invisible all the time. It also needs to be Sustained, which I don't think you can do out of combat either.
I think it's reasonable to allow a character to start being invisible before combat starts, but it should also be during that part of encounter mode where combat has not yet started, but you are counting rounds and actions.
I would consider the "can't use it again" counter to start when the impulse ends, rather than when it starts.
I would consider the "can't use it again" counter to start when the impulse ends, rather than when it starts.
That and I don't think most DM are going to let it fly that you can do something exhausting for the max time, do something else for a round and then go back to doing the exhausting activity again.
Once you can sustain it without an action at level 12 is it still tiring?
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The relevant wording on "Clear As Air" is:
"This impulse weakens if you use it too frequently. Using
it again within 10 minutes makes you concealed instead of
invisible."
I think it's safe to assume the intent being that it's weakened for 10 minutes after you're finished sustaining it, though I know for a fact that some people will argue it's 10 minutes from initial use, coupled with a 10 minute sustain time will mean it can have 100% OOC uptime.
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The relevant wording on "Clear As Air" is:
"This impulse weakens if you use it too frequently. Using
it again within 10 minutes makes you concealed instead of
invisible."I think it's safe to assume the intent being that it's weakened for 10 minutes after you're finished sustaining it, though I know for a fact that some people will argue it's 10 minutes from initial use, coupled with a 10 minute sustain time will mean it can have 100% OOC uptime.
And those people would be correct. ;P
Well, near 100% uptime. You still have the action activation gap.
Decided to make a separate thread for this, because I'm curious how most tables do it and what people think of kineticists wandering around with elements gathered.
Kineticist "gather element" is essentially their version of drawing a weapon. I have two questions:
1. How often do most tables allow PCs to have all the weapons they want drawn at the start of combat? Most of DMs I've ever seen are pretty loose about it, unless you're having tea with Duchess Primproper or something when combat breaks out - anyone have different experiences?
2. Would you allow a kineticist to wander around a dungeon/town with their kinetic aura active? None of the auras (sans stance, which is explicitly combat-only) actually deal damage, so it's not exactly dangerous for passerby.
So now that I have read through the rules and have played around with theorycrafting a character or two:
First, Gather Element seems to be the wrong name. Channel Elements is most likely what you are talking about since that is like drawing the element abilities like a weapon. Some other options for similar name are Extract Element to reduce resistance or immunity of an enemy, or Generate as part of Base Kinesis to bring a bit of raw elemental matter into being.
Anyway, naming aside: What I see is that Channel Elements also gives you a subordinate action to spend on a one-action Elemental Blast or Elemental Stance. So it is sort of like having Quick Draw for free as a 1st level class ability. No, you don't get to do a two-action Elemental Blast if you don't already have your elemental channel active, but a fighter with Quick Draw also can't do Power Attack if they don't have their weapon in hand.
I am also not seeing anything in Kinetic Gate or Kinetic Aura that say that it doesn't work except in combat. So pointing to balance considerations regarding the armor options is not necessary. Kineticists can walk around dungeons or fields or whatever else with their kinetic gate and kinetic aura active as much as they want. They may get some strange looks or even legal repercussions in certain settlements - but that will be campaign and GM and settlement specific.