Drawn Weapons and Kineticist


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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The Contrarian wrote:

And those people would be correct. ;P

Well, near 100% uptime. You still have the action activation gap.

Not entirely sure that this is meant to be serious or not. Especially considering the change in character name.

But put me in the camp of that you have to have a 10 minute break since the last time that you had Clear as Air active before you can use it again for full invisibility.

If it was intended to allow invisibility constantly (or nearly constantly), it would have said that instead of saying that it has a 10 minute cooldown.


breithauptclan wrote:

But put me in the camp of that you have to have a 10 minute break since the last time that you had Clear as Air active before you can use it again for full invisibility.

If it was intended to allow invisibility constantly (or nearly constantly), it would have said that instead of saying that it has a 10 minute cooldown.

Firstly, I can't understand how people are reading "This impulse weakens if you use it too frequently. Using it again within 10 minutes makes you concealed instead of invisible" differently from the 'within 10 min from initial use'. Because sustaining is not using. Using costs 2 actions and your aura as it's overflow. 'Sustaining' is, well, sustaining, not 'using' and costs 1 action (or less).

Secondly, I don't see any problem, it's just as a 2nd rank invisibility, and you can't sustain it more than 10 minutes anyway.


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Errenor wrote:

Secondly, I don't see any problem, it's just as a 2nd rank invisibility, and you can't sustain it more than 10 minutes anyway.

So you are fine with 'sustain for 9 minutes and 54 seconds, then become visible for one round, then cast Clear as Air for full invisibility again for another not quite 10 minutes'?

And the developers wrote in that 10 minute time limit for what purpose?


There's one interesting thing that Logan said today was "...you have an elemental connection within your being called your kinetic gate and it kind of puts Elemental energy out into the world through you you can suppress that temporarily but it is just kind of like a natural part of your your being..."

Basically the concept that for kineticist control its elements is something natural to it (probably like move, talk or even breath) and when it not using it or preventing its effect is because it's suppressing it. So the main idea is that most impulses aren't a so strong effort like is for a wizard to repeat cantrips for example.

So IMO repeat an impulse isn't that problematic as many people here is pointing.


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Errenor wrote:
Firstly, I can't understand .... Because sustaining is not using. Using costs 2 actions and your aura as it's overflow. 'Sustaining' is, well, sustaining, not 'using' and costs 1 action (or less).

For my linguistic analysis, sustaining is not casting (otherwise Witches can only have one active Hex spell ever). But using an effect could also mean having the effect be active for any reason.

Yes, it could use some more clarity in the wording. But I am also not sure how ruling nearly 100% uptime of invisibility doesn't fall into too good to be true territory.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
Errenor wrote:

Secondly, I don't see any problem, it's just as a 2nd rank invisibility, and you can't sustain it more than 10 minutes anyway.

So you are fine with 'sustain for 9 minutes and 54 seconds, then become visible for one round, then cast Clear as Air for full invisibility again for another not quite 10 minutes'?

And the developers wrote in that 10 minute time limit for what purpose?

While I'm inclined to agree with you, the 10 minute cap still serves a purpose for limiting encounter mode usage regardless of how it works in exploration mode.


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I'm pretty sure the 10 minute limit on being invisible is to prevent "spend as much time in the enemy camp as you want since they can't detect you" shenanigans. Adding a running clock to that sort of thing at least creates drama.

Dark Archive

Errenor wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:

But put me in the camp of that you have to have a 10 minute break since the last time that you had Clear as Air active before you can use it again for full invisibility.

If it was intended to allow invisibility constantly (or nearly constantly), it would have said that instead of saying that it has a 10 minute cooldown.

Firstly, I can't understand how people are reading "This impulse weakens if you use it too frequently. Using it again within 10 minutes makes you concealed instead of invisible" differently from the 'within 10 min from initial use'. Because sustaining is not using. Using costs 2 actions and your aura as it's overflow. 'Sustaining' is, well, sustaining, not 'using' and costs 1 action (or less).

Secondly, I don't see any problem, it's just as a 2nd rank invisibility, and you can't sustain it more than 10 minutes anyway.

Until you're 10th level and, by your interpretation, that feat would grant 99% uptime on being either invisible or concealed.

And at level 16 it's 99% uptime on greater invisibility.

For a 6th level feat.

This falls squarely into "if your interpretation of RAW sounds too good to be true, it probably is".


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"using" is not a keyword, and in plain English it may as easily refer to "having active" as "activating it".

So as far as RAW is concerned, both sides can be correct.

My own interpretation is that "using" refers to benefiting from it, in order to basically introduce a cooldown period to it.


Depending on your view on "using", yes, it's functionally permanent greater invisibility. Which is, of course, bad and dumb. As a GM, I'd just say it can't be used for an extended period of time outside of combat, despite mechanically being no different from earth armor or hardwood armor or the like, because it's so analogous to 4th level invis.

The cost for 4th level invis to be permanent on a spellcaster is all their spell slots. It should not be trivial on a kineticist. Especially because permanent undetected is essentially impossible for anyone to deal with.


breithauptclan wrote:
Errenor wrote:

Secondly, I don't see any problem, it's just as a 2nd rank invisibility, and you can't sustain it more than 10 minutes anyway.

So you are fine with 'sustain for 9 minutes and 54 seconds, then become visible for one round, then cast Clear as Air for full invisibility again for another not quite 10 minutes'?

And the developers wrote in that 10 minute time limit for what purpose?

Don't put words in my mouth. When I said 10 minutes only, I meant it. The issue that the devs have never cleared how this 10 min cap on strenuous activities should work is entirely different. (10xCON for hustling.. oph, this sounds bad, why did they choose this word?)

Obviously, several seconds of rest is not enough to prevent fatigue and resume activity. We have to invent home rule. So let it be... 10 minutes without doing such strenuous activity, for example.


breithauptclan wrote:
And the developers wrote in that 10 minute time limit for what purpose?

I mean, the 10 minute time limit still has a purpose even with the 99% uptime out of combat, and that's "in combat" or "consecutive combats". Between levels 6 and 15 you use any hostile action and your invis goes down, and thanks to that 10-minute clause, unless you happened to enter combat at the perfect time for you (which is highly unlikely), you can't go Invis again until probably at least after combat (though popping it again for Concealed rather than Invis is still valuable, but also resets the 10-minute countdown because you just Used it again). The 10 minute part means that if you have back to back fights (which I know happen sometimes) it has a good chance of carrying over into those other fights too so you straight up don't get Invis for them, especially if you take advantage of the Concealed at all.

Even once you hit level 16 and Hostile actions don't take it down, it's still a Sustained (and Overflow, so re-Channeling is an action cost to keep track of) ability, and there's plenty of things that might get in the way of you Sustaining it. Even with Effortless Impulse, it means you have a trade-off of Sustaining this over another Sustained impulse, and if you for whatever reason really need to Sustain something else instead you can't just do so then re-pop Invis the next turn.

Edit: Heck, assuming Sustaining still has Concentrate (which I wouldn't be surprised) an enemy might even have a Reaction that triggers off that Concentrate and can negate your Sustain.

Liberty's Edge

If they intended for it to offer permanent Invisibility they would have done so. The inclusion of the time limit/cooldown, no matter HOW poorly it was written, means that it is 100% clear they didn't want this to be abusable.

I'm all for following the RAW and trying to understand vague mechanics but the intent of this is super clear, besides, you're trying to do more no-no stuff that interfaces with Rule 0 anyhow by imposing Combat/Encounter Abilities in exploration mode so you can cheese stuff, nah, nope, I don't think so.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

One would think that a 5000 year old (at least) civilization would have developed protocols to deal with people running around town with weapons, or spells, or kinetic auras or whatever.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:


And the developers wrote in that 10 minute time limit for what purpose?

So that if you use the ability again before the timer is up it has a diminished effect. Pretty self evident.

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