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5e is shallow and gets boring quick
You Chose a class, a Race, maybe a subclass at lvl 4 and thats all you do for character customisation
In Pathfinder you get to Pick class feats, ancestry feats and get to make some more choices during your character growth
You want your fighter Go unarmed? Pick Up Martial Artist archetype
You want your rogue to manipulate time? Chronoskimmer
You want to suplex someone? Wrestler archetype
Want to be a Ninja? Take either rogue or monk and Pick a few feats of the other with multiclass archetypes
Annoyed by the Ranger being good against one enemy or in one Terrain? Pf2 Ranger got you covered
Want a divine Warrior but are annoyed at Paladin being the only Option? Go Champion, also in Noir flavor
Not saying that you can't build good or interesting characters in dnd5
But pathfinders big strength is customisation
And really tight math which disables things like lvl 1 bards grappling a lvl 20 celestial into oblivion
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One trick to the sell is making sure that the players understand that as a GM, PF2 is going to be much easier to run and to modify based upon the play experience everyone is having.. it might take some sessions of feeling things out and some conversations about what kind of game players are expecting (amount of role playing focus? Tactical complexity? Risk of death?) but all of these things can easily be dialed in by a GM once those expectations are known. And sometimes players might think they want something but realize in play they find that more boring or frustrating than they realize, but OF2 can be adjusted on the fly if GMs and players keep lines of communication open about expectations.
It might be hard to convince players if this who have never GM’d but even newer players should see that FM enthusiasm about the system is a good thing and trying to force someone to GM a game system they feel like warm about will make fun more difficult for everyone.
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I am trying to get a PF2E campaign off the ground (using FoundryVTT) and while a have a pretty large pool of potential players, I am having trouble getting folks over the hump of concern that Pathfinder is "too hard" or "more complex than 5E" or whatever.
It would be really nice if we had some more concrete arguments against the system.
But from just what has been presented:
'too hard' is somewhat valid. Some of the earliest campaigns are tuned to be a bit too challenging. Any time that you see an enemy with a level more than two levels higher than the party, it is going to be incredibly challenging and frustrating. A GM - especially one coming from PF1 - can easily fall into the trap of trying to 'win' against the players by using a higher level creature with optimal combat tactics and fight-to-the-death mentality ... and end up wiping the party. And even if they don't wipe the party, it still ends up feeling like a very not-fun slog of a combat.
Fortunately that is a problem that is easily fixed by the GM without the players even realizing that it is there or being fixed. You don't have to tell the players what level of enemy they are fighting. Make sure that the enemy creatures stay inside both the CR-2 to CR+2 range as well as the XP budget guidelines (both of these limits and advice are given in Building Encounters).
As for 'more complex than 5e', that is a problem of perception.
One interpretation of that complaint is that there are a lot of rules. Everything has a rule, from class feats, to how far you can crawl, to how long you need to talk to someone before trying to change their attitude. For the most part, players don't need to have all of these rules memorized. And they don't have to be followed in excruciatingly exact detail in order for the game to run smoothly. Know the basics - how to create a character, how to move around and spend actions in combat, and how to roll checks such as attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws, and approximate the rest.
Another interpretation of 'too complex' is that choosing the "right" option is hard because there are so many of them. That is definitely a flawed perception that is a holdover from PF1. Pathfinder2e has a rather solid power floor. It is hard to create a character that is ineffective and not fun to play. PF2 also has a solid power ceiling, which annoys power gamers - especially ones coming from PF1. But the best attitude to have for choosing options for a character is to pick what feels engaging, entertaining, and fun. Leave the task of keeping the character within the power band up to the game system itself and realize that it is very unlikely for a character to be too low powered, or too high powered.
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I am trying to get a PF2E campaign off the ground (using FoundryVTT) and while a have a pretty large pool of potential players, I am having trouble getting folks over the hump of concern that Pathfinder is "too hard" or "more complex than 5E" or whatever.
How do you sell PF2E to players whose main concern is that it will be too difficult or complex, especially in comparison to 5E?
Thanks!
Tell them not to try it as they will never come back to 5e afterwards.
Reverse psychology at its best.| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Tell them that the last airbender DLC just came out.
I am trying to get a PF2E campaign off the ground (using FoundryVTT) and while a have a pretty large pool of potential players, I am having trouble getting folks over the hump of concern that Pathfinder is "too hard" or "more complex than 5E" or whatever.
How do you sell PF2E to players whose main concern is that it will be too difficult or complex, especially in comparison to 5E?
Thanks!
Usually the players often get scared with the number of options and end up thinking that the thing is more difficult and complicated than it really is.
Explain to them that in general the most things that they already done in D&D is the same.
When playing D&D a player usually needs to read the entire class to understand their abilities and choose one or just select a class by name/concept and will adding their features to the sheet as they leveling up.
This basically don't changes in PF2, if you want to understand a class you need to read it all, what changes is that instead of have a fixed set of features they will choose those who will interest to them, the work is almost the same. If a player don't want to read the entire class he/she can just select their feats of the level that they currently are, diminishing a lot the number of things that the need to read.
Same happens to ancestries.
Also spellcaster players don't changes too much, their main work always was to select some spells from a large list. This don't change and have to select a class feat wasn't make the things considerable more complex its just one more choice in middle of many that a spellcaster needs to do.
Actually by summarizing the spell lists in 4 instead of one per class like you do in D&D this makes the spellcasting decision more easilly because you don't need to compare spellcaster classes based in their spellist too. You can select based in the tradition and choose them based in their own classes abilities.
Also the basic rules of pathfinder pretty simple. There's not many types os actions (move action, action, bonus action...). It's just action and you can do anything that cost 1-action with it, just the number of actions that matter, some things that may cost more than 1 action from your 3-actions pool or can be a free-action with no-cost, effectively don't typifying the actions at all. Only reactions that is a bit different but even they just work as described by abilities that uses them.
Other things like proficiency uses the same basic rule, no matter if is an attack, a save or a skill. You just need to copy your full bonus to your sheet and use it when needed.
I hope that this little explanation may help your players to understand that PF2 is no more harder to play than D&D currently is. You may have a decision paralysis if you want to compare too many things like try to compare all combinations of classes and ancestries and their feats to try to get the best DPR combination but usually this is an enormous waste of time due the fact of how well balanced the game is.
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Tell them difficulty is something you have a lot of control over as a GM. (And you do. Be permissive in what you give on Recall Knowledge. Use weaker encounters or give players an extra level over what the adventure defaults to.) Complexity has two fronts: building and playing.
Playing can actually be pretty straightforward if you guide players towards less complex classes. Fighters, rogues, and flurry ranger are your best choices for martials. Sorcerer and bard are probably the best choices for casters. Clerics and druids are options too, but you'll likely run into some confusion over how prepared casting works compared to 5e. Kineticist will probably be a great choice as well. Inventors and gunslingers are probably ok, as are barbarians. Monks are ok. But don't let anyone play summoners, swashbucklers, or alchemists, and be leery of witches. Oracles and investigators probably aren't worth it. Magus is complicated but might be a necessary addition for design space.
Building actually is actually pretty easy with either foundry or Pathbuilder. I tend to just have my groups level up and build together on Foundry. Doesn't take too long because so much is automated and leveling up across classes is pretty consistent.
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Tell them that ranger and monk are actually really fun and effective
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The thing about complexity RE: Pathfinder is that one of the design philosophies is "complexity is the currency with which we purchase depth." Depth is desirable, complexity is just the cost of that; and you want as much depth as you can buy without adding too much complexity.
The two basic themes of depth they bought were:
- Your character is extremely customizable. You want to be a toy someone wished alive, or an ambulatory mushroom? You want either of those things to be a dhampir somehow? Pathfinder characters get to make a lot of choices, because it's "in choosing one thing or not the other" that we can define our characters. It's usually pretty manageable, but one should walk new players through character creation.
- Combat is tactical and requires teamwork. The risk of a game like this is that combat either devolves into taking turns saying "I hit them with my mace" while everybody stands around or it devolves into "starring the character that wins all the fights plus their friends." PF2e deftly avoids both potholes, as combat is an "everyone contributes, everyone can contribute" sort of affair. Even basic tools like flanking, tripping, and intimidation are useful throughout high levels.
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Tell them it comes with a free version of Dndbeyond in the form of Wanderer's Guide or Pathbuilder 2e. We had players from 1e and from 5e hesitant to learn a new system, found those Apps, and then immediately took to it like a fish does to water.
Tell them it comes with a free version of Dndbeyond in the form of Wanderer's Guide or Pathbuilder 2e. We had players from 1e and from 5e hesitant to learn a new system, found those Apps, and then immediately took to it like a fish does to water.
Yeah. I'll agree on that - don't send them into chargen without pathbuilder. It helps a lot of that stuff.
Honestly, I feel like the big complexity hump is just in making your first character. There's a lot to consider and remember and whatnot, and you can hork yourself over if you get some of it wrong. So one of the things you can do is offer to help. Learn the chargen system well enough for yourself that you know where the real pitfalls are and all the clear "if you're doing X, then you absolutely should do Y" things, and offer to give them a simplified first chargen experience. Take it one-on-one. Ask each of them a small number of questions, and provide high-level explanations for what things are. ("Magus: Do you want to be able to stab people and set them on fire at the same time? Then you want a Magus. If that's not particularly interesting to you, best to pick something else.") Then fill in the rest of the details yourself, hand it back to them, and explain any details or particular rules they might need.
Now, this is a high-investment technique on your part. It's possible that this will either be not necessary or not worthwhile... but it should help.
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Is there a extension for FGU or Foundry to bring in Pathbuilder characters?Tell them it comes with a free version of Dndbeyond in the form of Wanderer's Guide or Pathbuilder 2e. We had players from 1e and from 5e hesitant to learn a new system, found those Apps, and then immediately took to it like a fish does to water.Yeah. I'll agree on that - don't send them into chargen without pathbuilder. It helps a lot of that stuff.
Honestly, I feel like the big complexity hump is just in making your first character. There's a lot to consider and remember and whatnot, and you can hork yourself over if you get some of it wrong. So one of the things you can do is offer to help. Learn the chargen system well enough for yourself that you know where the real pitfalls are and all the clear "if you're doing X, then you absolutely should do Y" things, and offer to give them a simplified first chargen experience. Take it one-on-one. Ask each of them a small number of questions, and provide high-level explanations for what things are. ("Magus: Do you want to be able to stab people and set them on fire at the same time? Then you want a Magus. If that's not particularly interesting to you, best to pick something else.") Then fill in the rest of the details yourself, hand it back to them, and explain any details or particular rules they might need.
Now, this is a high-investment technique on your part. It's possible that this will either be not necessary or not worthwhile... but it should help.
At one point there was, but I don't know if it still works with Foundry's latest version. Regardless, there is always the option of transcribing your character from the app to the sheet and using it for leveling up and such.
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Pathfinder offers opportunities for showing rather than telling. Grab a Free RPG Day or One Shot adventure and say something like, "Fistful of Flowers looks like a short bit of silliness. How about we play it? We don't have to stick to the hard rules, because this is just for fun."
When I began my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign, we had one total newbie who had never played roleplaying games before. We told her, "Just say in English what you want your character to do, and we will describe how to do it according to the rules." I had invited her because she was smart and I knew she would learn the rules quickly, but I saw no reason to put a steep learning curve in front of her as an obstacle. Pathfinder works pretty good for learning to play by experience with a helpful GM or player explaining the details to fellow players as the game proceeds.
And all the rules are online, so no-one has to invest in a rulebook before trying out the game.
I am planning on doing a one-shot adventure with Starfinder myself, so see whether my players and I want to commit to a long Starfinder campaign when our Pathfinder campaign ends this summer.
At one point there was, but I don't know if it still works with Foundry's latest version. Regardless, there is always the option of transcribing your character from the app to the sheet and using it for leveling up and such.One of the troubles I am having is dealing with the belief that PF2E is not as well supported on VTTs as 5E is -- which is probably broadly true, even if it is better supported on Foundry that 5E. I don't know if I have the bandwidth to learn Foundry, tho, and I am HEAVILY invested in FGU (sunk cost fallacy, I know).
Speaking as someone who had a very kind Fantasy Ground staff person try walking them through the tool for like an hour and a half... I found Foundry much easier to use. And it doesn't really matter if it isn't well supported on other VTTs, because Foundry is all you need.
And if you want to talk sunk cost, it is hard to find a better deal than Foundry. 50 or 60 USD for the tool itself, and then you have... Everything forever. Rulebooks, bestiaries, even creatures from APs.
The only things you're missing are:
Art. You can buy a bestiary pack to automatically upload nice art to your statblocks. Not necessary, but it saves trouble.
Adventures. But various APs have free pdf importers that will take your water marked pdf and upload maps, dynamic lighting, and monster placement for you. There are also premium versions of several adventures you can purchase. They are pricey but offer a truly elevated experience. Music, proximity triggered sound effects, environmental animations, and incredibly highly detailed, high quality maps.
Only thing to be wary of is keeping an eye on the discord for announcements when the software updates to make sure the PF2 ruleset and (ideally) your favorite modules are thoroughly tested already. If something breaks they usually fix it quickly, but you don't want that happening right before a game.
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Run them through the Beginner Box and it sells itself.
Oh yeah! I forgot to mention the beginner's box. Best way to learn the rules by doing, although it is suuuuuuper beginner focused and doesn't much of a dungeon ecology to speak of. It also has prebuilt characters and series of follow up adventures you can easily segue into, or the Abomination Vaults adventure path. Beginners Box into AV is a great way to get them ahead of the APs level curve while letting them feel like they earned it. Then you can either run it normally and let the lower XP awards gradually catch your players up as they learn, or calculate their XP rewards as one level lower than they actually are if you want to keep the lead consistent.
Though AV is a sandbox so you can still run into things you aren't ready for. Worth keeping in mind with new players, especially if they will tend to go down a flight of stairs before clearing out the floor they are on. A more linear AP might avoid that.
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I got my players to buy in by telling them I don't plan to DM anything but 2E any more. So if they want me to DM, they need to learn PF2.
I don't like DMing 5E and I don't like DMing PF1 any more. PF2 is a DM's edition as much as a player's edition. I want to be able to enjoy DMing while not spending a ton of time rewriting rules to create balance. PF2 is balanced out of the box.
Players follow the DMs. So tell them you want an easier life as a DM and PF2 makes your life easier. It's easy to play out of the box. You can take monsters of any level against PCs of a given level and run it as is regardless of what shenanigans they build for. That's why you plan to stick with DMing PF2 for less headaches, easier play, which leads to longer campaigns more often where you don't suffer from as much GM burnout.
Agreed, if you cannot get them to try something new for a single session you're probably better off playing 5e or finding other players. But your initial post mentions a campaign starting, which is a much bigger ask than a single session like the Beginner Box or Free RPG Day adventure. Have you even pitched the idea of a single session game and seeing where it goes from there?
Deleted some highly inappropriate comments.
Run them through the Beginner Box and it sells itself.You still have to get them to agree to even that. The barrier I am talking about is the very initial barrier.
Sometimes, you need to apply tough love. "I want to try this system out. If you don't want to try at all, that's fine. But I'm going to be running this, and won't be running 5e until I do."
Of course one would hope that this is a last resort kind of deal. Talking one on one, talking as a group, speaking with them to dissuade their doubts and lessen their fears, and going through character creation with them to show them that it's not that big and scary should all be done first.
But if it really is just resistance after resistance, you need to be able to draw a line in the sand and go "This is what's happening. Either be part of it or don't."
Run them through the Beginner Box and it sells itself.
I have a similar thread to this, so I hope that's true.
Another interpretation of 'too complex' is that choosing the "right" option is hard because there are so many of them. That is definitely a flawed perception that is a holdover from PF1. Pathfinder2e has a rather solid power floor. It is hard to create a character that is ineffective and not fun to play. PF2 also has a solid power ceiling, which annoys power gamers - especially ones coming from PF1. But the best attitude to have for choosing options for a character is to pick what feels engaging, entertaining, and fun. Leave the task of keeping the character within the power band up to the game system itself and realize that it is very unlikely for a character to be too low powered, or too high powered.
That’s an interesting perspective. I don’t really enjoy the game, but I’ve always found one of 5E’s strengths to be the high floor, low ceiling (provided you don’t allow multiclassing). I think it’s a good choice to build PF2 around that ideal too.
Like the hypothetical 5E fan we’re discussing, I had also just presumed that because of the large number of choices/options there must be combinations or synergies that render other options unattractive.