|
Also - I don't think martial kineticists are going to be very viable. I'd love to be wrong, though.I'm thinking about making a martial Kineticist, what's giving you this impression?
Clarification: a MELEE kineticist. Still no manufactured weapon. Thinking metal element should be most interesting for it.
Compared to the rest of the martials, the damage is fairly low. They wear only light armor. They are very mad requiring 18 con, 16 str, and 12 dex, which makes them extremely squishy. Light armor and low dex is significantly low AC and will be a crit magnet. Rogues use dex and light armor. Barbarians use medium and fighters can use heavy armor.
I fear using light armor without being a dex based class will be an easy way to die.
Furthermore, dealing 1d8+7 isn't a good enough reward for being so squishy.
The squish is a concern for sure. I was planning on stalwart defender with unburdened iron to get heavy armor by 4.
Also - I don't think martial kineticists are going to be very viable. I'd love to be wrong, though.
I suspect a melee focused kineticist from level 1 is going to be a tricky one, since you only get light armor (reportedly), you don't have many feats/impulses/junctures/features, and it's tricky to figure out where to fit in strength.
But presumably you invest your various resources into defense, and the lowest dex cap on a fully functional light armor is +3 (e.g. chain shirt), so you can grow into a pretty good melee character.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Overall I prefer things the way they are on release, in terms of acquiring elements. It is cool to wield all elements earlier on, but if the class had that as an easy option, it would have to be balanced around being able to cherry pick from all 6 elements with little investment. And... well, we all know what happens when you balance a class against some huge versatility tax that half the people don't even want to use :x.
Compared to the rest of the martials, the damage is fairly low. They wear only light armor. They are very mad requiring 18 con, 16 str, and 12 dex, which makes them extremely squishy. Light armor and low dex is significantly low AC and will be a crit magnet. Rogues use dex and light armor. Barbarians use medium and fighters can use heavy armor.
I fear using light armor without being a dex based class will be an easy way to die.
Furthermore, dealing 1d8+7 isn't a good enough reward for being so squishy.
You don't need 16 Str unless you intend to use melee weapons with str. You can afford to lose a point or two off of your melee blasts, and that makes things a lot more open. If you *do* take str 16, you should be looking at ways to give yourself heavier armors (like, say, human medium armor training at 1 into Sentinel Archetype at 2) at which point there's no need for the dex.
...and yeah - if you're playing a kineticist and not using your impulses, you're doing it wrong. That's true. That's almost as bad as playing a caster and not using your spell slots. 1d8+7 is just the baseline thing that absolutely everyone gets, on a class that's built around individualization. Your blast isn't there to be the thing you build your character around. Your blast is there to make sure that the people who want to play kineticists that aren't focused on doing damage have some way to do damage anyway.
Like, it makes a lot more sense if you think of that as the sole damage source for a kineticist who's all-in on healing, debuffing, or terrain control.
Speaking of which - party combos? There are kineticist builds out there that are going to be *great* at the "buddy up with the kobold ranger snarecrafter" role.
Yeah, I'm not sure about early str investment on kineticist, just because of the MAD of it. At higher levels it's more viable, of course.
The two-action blast should trigger impulse junctions, which can be important though.
The issue will be two-action blast baseline, two-action blast with class feat support (some of the playtest ones will presumably get reworked), and the competing two-action impulse that doesn't have overflow.
At level 1 a water kineticist can choose between a d8+4 (average 8.5) single target attack or a 2d4 (average 5) AOE that has a basic save, can hit two targets and leaves behind difficult terrain in a 10' burst that can be annoying even if you only tag one target for damage. I think unless the feat support for it is good that your two-action impulse will often be the better play over a blast.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really happy with where the numbers are at, and even then we might get more goodies to bump those a little higher. Not saying that to say others are wrong to want more damage, but there's a lot of doom and gloom in this 'hype thread' and I wanted to chime in. Even given what little we know, kineticist does pretty comparable damage to a bow fighter when using a blast and overflow (going off some damage calcs others did in the rage of elements spoiler discussion on the 2e discord). Considering all the other fun stuff the class can do I think that's super fair.
Usually when I go to make a character I have a little checklist of things I want the character to be able to do. Have solutions for darkness, melee and ranged attacks, area attacks, multiple damage types, healing, stuff like that. Kineticist (at least water since it's the only one whose impulses we know) can do so many of those things, at will, from level one. It's crazy and I love it.
Compared to the rest of the martials, the damage is fairly low. They wear only light armor. They are very mad requiring 18 con, 16 str, and 12 dex, which makes them extremely squishy. Light armor and low dex is significantly low AC and will be a crit magnet. Rogues use dex and light armor. Barbarians use medium and fighters can use heavy armor.
I fear using light armor without being a dex based class will be an easy way to die.
Furthermore, dealing 1d8+7 isn't a good enough reward for being so squishy.
Medium/heavy armor proficiencies are pretty easy to get and in your first few levels, using those armors without proficiency can get you a similar/better AC to light. You can also add a shield for more AC, so chain [+4/+1] and a shield [+1] gets you an AC 1 at 1st.
Human and Cataphract Fleshwarp can start 1st level with Armor Proficiency too.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's also the fact, pretty blatantly, that "maximize direct damage" isn't really what the kineticist does... or at least not all of it
It's what the barbarian does. A giant barb has sacrificed *so much* on the altar of "deal as much melee damage as possible, per hit". Even just deciding that you don't want to be clumsy on top of your rage debuff to AC means that you're dropping at least 2 points of damage off every hit.
I mean... a kineticist in light armor with 12 dex might not be great for AC, but their AC is as good as a raging unshielded Giant Barb's AC can possibly be... and they'll get better as their stats improve in a way that the barb just wont.
The kineticist, though, gets a lot of other things. Water gets range and area effects and messing with people and mobility and healing. If you want damage? That's Fire. Metal of Earth are also meant to be pretty good at it. We haven't seen any of those. Even so, once we do see them, I sincerely hope that they don't match up to the Barbarian, because if they do that's just really sad, and also they're broken OP.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm trying to think of what stat spread Brad the mid-life crisis adventurer dad should have. Obviously Con at 18. I want Charisma to be decently high because he's definitely that kind of person who would lie about all the super awesome things he'd done 'back in his day' and I want to give him the dandy archetype if I play him in a free archetype game.
Maybe like...
12 Str/14 Dex/18 Con/10 Int/10 Wis/14 Cha?
Having more 12 wis is probably better than having 12 Str but like he needs to have a decent bit of strength because dads gotta be good at opening tough to open bottles. Ya kno. i also don't think he learned anything over his 400 year lifespan. his 'fatherly wisdom' would just be the pure BS that calvin's dad gives
It will be interesting how the "I have every element" is going to compare powerwise to "good ol' rock, nothing beats rock."
But I think the amount of time it takes to get all six is sort of a reflection of "the entire story of TLA or LOK was- the Avatar goes on a journey to master all of the elements." Specifically, they didn't just start that way at level one and they were near full power when they got there.
I am curious too. Upside if it has a weakness you probably have something to exploit it. Now that you don’t constantly have to spend an action to gather a different element it would be a pretty fun concept just throwing the kitchen sink at opponents. That said I think most will do 1 to 3 elements. That way you have some extra junctures to owner up your abilities and combo impulses or just be damn good at one element and have it fully powered.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm trying to think of what stat spread Brad the mid-life crisis adventurer dad should have. Obviously Con at 18. I want Charisma to be decently high because he's definitely that kind of person who would lie about all the super awesome things he'd done 'back in his day' and I want to give him the dandy archetype if I play him in a free archetype game.
Maybe like...
12 Str/14 Dex/18 Con/10 Int/10 Wis/14 Cha?
Having more 12 wis is probably better than having 12 Str but like he needs to have a decent bit of strength because dads gotta be good at opening tough to open bottles. Ya kno.
i also don't think he learned anything over his 400 year lifespan
Does he need dex 14?
I mean, it kind of depends on his intended engagement envelope. If you want him in close, then obviously you're going to want at least 14, or you're going to want to get him into heavier armor. Admittedly, Brad doesn't really seem like a "heavy armor" guy. On the other hand, the combination of Fire and a 12 str suggests that you're not eager for the clash of battle, which means that you could *probably* afford to let your dex lag. Kineticists have a fair bit of HP for someone who's staying in the back.
Basically, if you start dex at 14 and stay in light, you cap your AC at level 5. If you start at 12 and stay in light, you cap at level 10. After you hit cap, any further dex you get is... unexciting.
Brad seems like the kind of guy who's maybe put on a few more pounds than are really good for him, and might take a while to work those off.
So... I might suggest dropping dex to 12 for that cha of 16? Might explain his relationship with his kids and his ex-wives, too... he's good enough on charm to fly on that in the short and even medium term, but eventually they first figured out and then got royally sick of his BS. Maybe he'll learn. Maybe he won't.
In regards to armor, the playtest geokineticist had an impulse that was basically "put on your rock suit" that was supposed to give you better defenses.
This was a high level ability (and the math didn't really work out) but I could absolutely see something at lower levels for the elements for which "defense" is a priority to affect your armor class less through "what armor you're wearing" and more from "your channeled element."
I'm trying to think of what stat spread Brad the mid-life crisis adventurer dad should have. Obviously Con at 18. I want Charisma to be decently high because he's definitely that kind of person who would lie about all the super awesome things he'd done 'back in his day' and I want to give him the dandy archetype if I play him in a free archetype game.
Maybe like...
12 Str/14 Dex/18 Con/10 Int/10 Wis/14 Cha?
Having more 12 wis is probably better than having 12 Str but like he needs to have a decent bit of strength because dads gotta be good at opening tough to open bottles. Ya kno.
i also don't think he learned anything over his 400 year lifespanDoes he need dex 14?
I mean, it kind of depends on his intended engagement envelope. If you want him in close, then obviously you're going to want at least 14, or you're going to want to get him into heavier armor. Admittedly, Brad doesn't really seem like a "heavy armor" guy. On the other hand, the combination of Fire and a 12 str suggests that you're not eager for the clash of battle, which means that you could *probably* afford to let your dex lag. Kineticists have a fair bit of HP for someone who's staying in the back.
Basically, if you start dex at 14 and stay in light, you cap your AC at level 5. If you start at 12 and stay in light, you cap at level 10. After you hit cap, any further dex you get is... unexciting.
Brad seems like the kind of guy who's maybe put on a few more pounds than are really good for him, and might take a while to work those off.
So... I might suggest dropping dex to 12 for that cha of 16? Might explain his relationship with his kids and his ex-wives, too... he's good enough on charm to fly on that in the short and even medium term, but eventually they first figured out and then got royally sick of his BS. Maybe he'll learn. Maybe he won't.
Yeah, I intend for him to be more of a backliner, make use of fire's 60ft range. He'll only be in melee if like he's really forced to like backed in a corner. He's definitely not a heavy armour guy. Good point on them having a good bit of HP, with my experience in PF2e so far I'm just eternally scared of crits happening because I'm missing that extra bit of dex haha.
You have a good point with when I 'cap' my AC. I didn't even consider that, I'm so used to wanting to make it as high as possible for Dex builds. I just don't want him to die before then.
And yes he definitely put on a few pounds. He's got a bit of a beer gut he hides with his slightly baggy shirt.
Hahahaha, I love your insight, thank you it made my day which has started on a rough foot. I will definitely take your ideas in mind, I think 16 cha is what my heart ultimately wants but the small 'optimiser' in me is scared of the higher chance to get crit. On the other hand him getting rekt early on would be a rather fitting if sad ending.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Who needs Dex when you have Con and Str? Brad deserves to be thick.
Who needs Dex when you have Con and Str? Brad deserves to be thick.
You're killing me sdfjksdf
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can get junctions for three different elements right? I wonder which combination of auras makes life hardest for enemies in your vicinity.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah an aura is the new gather element. You spend an action to channel elements and create your aura, and there are some gate junction abilities that affect your aura. There are also stances, impulse feats that, while you're in the stance, give your aura another effect. A little confusing but only because of how different it is from the playtest.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In regards to armor, the playtest geokineticist had an impulse that was basically "put on your rock suit" that was supposed to give you better defenses.
This was a high level ability (and the math didn't really work out) but I could absolutely see something at lower levels for the elements for which "defense" is a priority to affect your armor class less through "what armor you're wearing" and more from "your channeled element."
Metal and Earth should have impulses that just give you armor with its own stats IMO, same idea as the ancestries with extra tough scales that function like breastplate.
|
Metal and Earth should have impulses that just give you armor with its own stats IMO, same idea as the ancestries with extra tough scales that function like breastplate.In regards to armor, the playtest geokineticist had an impulse that was basically "put on your rock suit" that was supposed to give you better defenses.
This was a high level ability (and the math didn't really work out) but I could absolutely see something at lower levels for the elements for which "defense" is a priority to affect your armor class less through "what armor you're wearing" and more from "your channeled element."
As long as they come with proficiency too. Worst thing about the Ancestry feats is they don't grant said proficiency, so you still have to get that somewhere or be stuck in armor you aren't good at using.
So, as long as we don't have to gain proficiency elsewhere then I'm all for this and hope for it.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Metal and Earth should have impulses that just give you armor with its own stats IMO, same idea as the ancestries with extra tough scales that function like breastplate.In regards to armor, the playtest geokineticist had an impulse that was basically "put on your rock suit" that was supposed to give you better defenses.
This was a high level ability (and the math didn't really work out) but I could absolutely see something at lower levels for the elements for which "defense" is a priority to affect your armor class less through "what armor you're wearing" and more from "your channeled element."
I also hope they get level 1 feats that provide at least medium or heavy armor.
Stone armor for earth and regular plate for metal.
I honestly can't envision a scenario where metal isn't given some way to get heavy armor proficiency or an equivalent. Wrapping yourself in metal armor is one of the first thoughts anyone could have. It's impossible the design team missed such a thing.
Could we get to select a "fighting style" IN ADDITION of how many elements we wish to use?
If you get earth/metal armor you'll hate it because it'll be an impulse that takes 2-3 actions that has to be activated at the start of every combat.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you get earth/metal armor you'll hate it because it'll be an impulse that takes 2-3 actions that has to be activated at the start of every combat.
Couldn't it "just" be a feat that grants you the possibility to spend either time during daily preparations or maybe 10 minutes of downtime to recreate an existing type of armor using metal, stone, wood or even ice that you could then wear during the day?
Or even better, have it be toggleable with a single interact action. Which would would i feel be the most unlikely approach, but a man can dream.
If you get earth/metal armor you'll hate it because it'll be an impulse that takes 2-3 actions that has to be activated at the start of every combat.Couldn't it "just" be a feat that grants you the possibility to spend either time during daily preparations or maybe 10 minutes of downtime to recreate an existing type of armor using metal, stone, wood or even ice that you could then wear during the day?
Or even better, have it be toggleable with a single interact action. Which would would i feel be the most unlikely approach, but a man can dream.
If it's an elemental impulse feat, then it's...an impulse, so not a thing that works with daily preparations or downtime.
It could be part of a level 4 one action (doable as part of gather element) stance, I guess, except those modify the aura and the aura applies to everyone within the aura. I'm assuming stances won't become available to anyone before level 4, when water gets their first one, which also makes this impractical as a solution to chargen AC.
A metal armor impulse could be one that starts with a limited bonus, maybe some limitation(s) like reduced speed and/or a Dex Cap, and scales with level increasing the AC bonus and reducing the limitations (reduced speed/Dex Cap/or whatever). At higher levels it could add other benefits, like spikes with a reactive strike to counter adjacent melee/unarmed strikes/grapples and/or making the armor from other, rarer metals like cold iron, silver, etc.
Wishful thinking, I know...
Other impulses I have been hoping for some version of are:
Disarm ability as appropriate for Metal and Wood, depending on the weapon material.
Metal
- Rust impulse to disintegrate metal weapons and armor that is actively attended, worn, or wielded by enemies.
- Squeeze Armor to crush those impertinent enough to wear metal armor against a metal kineticist.
- Magnetism impulse to immobilize enemies wearing metal or Disarm them of their metal weapons.
Earth
- Hazardous Pits that open under enemies to give them falling damage. At higher levels, maybe add spikes, increase the depth, or slam the pits shut on the enemies.
- Soften Earth Reaction for falling damage reduction to catch yourself and/or allies.
- Earth Catapult that "pushes", "throws", or otherwise launches a creature across the battlefield (forced movement on enemies for 2 actions). When paired with Soften Earth for "catching", you could use this to aid yourself or an ally to do a fast move across the battlefield.
- Burrow movement and maybe an ability to create trenches for allies to take cover in to avoid AoE damage.
- A lower level Earth armor than the one in the playtest.
Water
- I know this ship has already sailed, but I wanted to see an ice armor ability, maybe done as a damage reduction against physical damage types.
Fire
- Heat Metal would be cool to roast enemies in their own armor or to make them drop their weapons or take damage.
Hello everyone! Based on what little we have, a kineticist who wanted to hit the front lines hard, would better Sentinel or Champion? Thinking about Dexterity, is it possible to make a frontline that deals damage, as good as the ones mentioned? I was thinking of an armored dwarf using the earth, but the more "agile" characters from The Legend of Aang keep circling in my head...
|
|
A metal armor impulse could be one that starts with a limited bonus, maybe some limitation(s) like reduced speed and/or a Dex Cap, and scales with level increasing the AC bonus and reducing the limitations (reduced speed/Dex Cap/or whatever). At higher levels it could add other benefits, like spikes with a reactive strike to counter adjacent melee/unarmed strikes/grapples and/or making the armor from other, rarer metals like cold iron, silver, etc.
Wishful thinking, I know...
Other impulses I have been hoping for some version of are:
Disarm ability as appropriate for Metal and Wood, depending on the weapon material.
Metal
- Rust impulse to disintegrate metal weapons and armor that is actively attended, worn, or wielded by enemies.
- Squeeze Armor to crush those impertinent enough to wear metal armor against a metal kineticist.
- Magnetism impulse to immobilize enemies wearing metal or Disarm them of their metal weapons.Earth
- Hazardous Pits that open under enemies to give them falling damage. At higher levels, maybe add spikes, increase the depth, or slam the pits shut on the enemies.
- Soften Earth Reaction for falling damage reduction to catch yourself and/or allies.
- Earth Catapult that "pushes", "throws", or otherwise launches a creature across the battlefield (forced movement on enemies for 2 actions). When paired with Soften Earth for "catching", you could use this to aid yourself or an ally to do a fast move across the battlefield.
- Burrow movement and maybe an ability to create trenches for allies to take cover in to avoid AoE damage.
- A lower level Earth armor than the one in the playtest.Water
- I know this ship has already sailed, but I wanted to see an ice armor ability, maybe done as a damage reduction against physical damage types.Fire
- Heat Metal would be cool to roast enemies in their own armor or to make them drop their weapons or take damage.
The reaction you can get from water level 1 is very close to what you're suggesting. Very curious what it's junction/specialty ability will be though. The air movement one seems incredible.
|
|
Hello everyone! Based on what little we have, a kineticist who wanted to hit the front lines hard, would better Sentinel or Champion? Thinking about Dexterity, is it possible to make a frontline that deals damage, as good as the ones mentioned? I was thinking of an armored dwarf using the earth, but the more "agile" characters from The Legend of Aang keep circling in my head...
We don't know enough yet unfortunately. General consensus is a melee kineticist will be difficult, but we haven't seen any of the earth or metal information yet and those would be the most likely to fit that goal. I'm hoping a dwarven metal kineticist is melee viable, and planning to use stalwart defender archetype to solve the armor issue if the class doesn't handle it by itself.
Water
- I know this ship has already sailed, but I wanted to see an ice armor ability, maybe done as a damage reduction against physical damage types.
The 1st level reaction, Deflecting Wave, does this against bludgeoning and slashing damage (and twice as well against fire and acid).
The 1st level reaction, Deflecting Wave, does this against bludgeoning and slashing damage (and twice as well against fire and acid).
Water
- I know this ship has already sailed, but I wanted to see an ice armor ability, maybe done as a damage reduction against physical damage types.
Yeah, I forgot about it since it is flavored differently than what I was hoping for in the form of an ice armor. I do like Deflecting Wave, though.
OMG OMG OMG i just got my subscription email! That means it will prob ship out ON the 17th.
Sadly that's not how it works, the order of authorization emails isn't the same order they get shipped in.
On the topic of earth armor, I do hope that it's in the book in some form. If it is assume Earth's mantle, I would love for it to be lower level, last longer, less actions, fewer benefits (maybe AC and pick a second when it's formed?), not overflow, or whatever of those I can get.
Hello everyone! Based on what little we have, a kineticist who wanted to hit the front lines hard, would better Sentinel or Champion? Thinking about Dexterity, is it possible to make a frontline that deals damage, as good as the ones mentioned? I was thinking of an armored dwarf using the earth, but the more "agile" characters from The Legend of Aang keep circling in my head...
Sentinel has scaling armor proficiency for medium/heavy (with a feat to get medium first)
champion gets heavy proficiency and upgrades it once
if kineticist get only expert defense (doubt that) or you are playing short/low level campaigns champion isprobably a solid choice
but I would go for sentinel
|
|
Yay! I just went to the Rage of Elements page and it says "Note: You purchased this product today." Here's hoping it ships Monday! I didn't get the email, but that is due to email issues I've had, just glad to see it is moving now!
To add to the conversation though, I'd actually love to see something akin to hardness for Earth and/or Metal, but not quite that strong. Maybe an impulse that covers you in earthen armor or metal wrappings that give the equivalent of heavy armor, but that gets shattered on a critical hit.
It could cost 3 actions and overflow to apply, but last an hour (or until broken). That would mean you have it up most of the time and could even reapply if it gets broken, but at the cost of basically a full turn.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mentally preparing for a combined storm of Nerdlove and Nerdrage coming next monday.
Everything about the shipping and release of highly anticipated books and the subscription system has always left a lot to be desired.
Subscriptions and digital pre-orders should really just have the PDF released on the first day of shipping for everyone. Remove the potentially 3 week+ swing in delivery of digital products.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mentally preparing for a combined storm of Nerdlove and Nerdrage coming next monday.Everything about the shipping and release of highly anticipated books and the subscription system has always left a lot to be desired.
Subscriptions and digital pre-orders should really just have the PDF released on the first day of shipping for everyone. Remove the potentially 3 week+ swing in delivery of digital products.
The multi-week wait feels real bad for me because I have to budget for the 20 usd book, if I wanted even just the print version it'd be just over 90 USD (because shipping to australia) so that'd be a good amount of saving up for me that I could not justify/risk using the subscription for which ends up making me feel like I'm getting punished for being poor and international