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As someone who is obsessed with dragons… I would love more dragon gods and the introduction of new dragons is the perfect time to introduce more dragon gods
So far we only have Apsu and Uvuko (is Uvuko a dragon? There’s criminally low lore on him and that’s a shame) that are good aligned and thus PFS legal and allowed at most tables. All the other dragon gods are evil-aligned like Dahuk, though I don’t know much outside of Dahuk and Ragadahn, and a lot of tables ban evil characters and evil characters aren’t allowed in PFS
Perhaps good and evil (or holy and unholy) dragons that cover the other bases?
Like a healing and life based or beauty based dragon god or a musical dragon god, or a magic based one, or a dragon god of undeath?
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So, this is dredging up some pre-PF1 lore, but kobolds worship several deities as dragons. Asmodeus and Mammon at least, and I think there were a few others. Obviously, those particular deities aren't what you're looking for alignment-wise, but the general principle holds. Just because deities are commonly depicted as humanoid doesn't really mean they're necessarily that- Desna's Starfinder version is more of a moth, for instance. I'd suggest that approach, maybe leaving out the few gods who ascended from Golarion and are definitely former humans.
I don't think that Paizo is going to toss in a deity of "undeath, but dragon-flavored" when they already have a core deity of undeath. Ditto for beauty and magic. We also see from the dragon they showed us that the dragons are designed to fit into the existing world and lore as it exists. That said, it was a divine dragon with a tie to a plane, meaning that you can now connect any options tied to that plane (e.g. the upcoming nephelim heritage) to that type of dragon in your personal backstory.
The Core books are almost certainly not going to be introducing any new deities of any kind. They're core books, so they're going to cover the core deities- the selection of 20 different deities presented as the main options.
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I tend to think of dragons as individual creatures with enough power and egos to match, that I don't see them worshiping a god. On the other hand, if some lower creatures wanted to treat a dragon as a god, I can see the dragon going along with it, as long as it's beneficial to them, and are well fed.
I'd like to see more dragon bloodlines and cults.
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So, this is dredging up some pre-PF1 lore, but kobolds worship several deities as dragons.
You could make ANY god a dragon god:
#1 take Splinter Faith, which allows you to represent your faith in your deity in an extremely unusual way that some might call heretical like being a dragon.#2 take Wyrmkin as your one domain that isn’t on the deities primary or alternate Domains.
#3 profit
PS: I also don't see why a non-cleric/champion couldn't do the same thing without the feats as there is no reason that such faiths wouldn't exist outside the class.
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A dragon Desna sounds absolutely fantastic.
Two words: Draconic Holy Polycule.
EDIT: Oh, there's three words? Huh. Conventionally it would only be two. That's awfully queer.
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I imagine the upcoming Tian Xia books would be a good place to introduce a couple new dragon deities, but I do agree that taking random concepts and making dragon gods based around them would be a bit boring, especially if other gods cover those.
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I also wanted to add that the Taralu dwarven culture also depicts several deities (dwarven included) as dragons. Even going as far as to say that the deific nature itself is draconic and to deny that is for a god to go against that nature.
As for Big Bads in the setting I think Dahak is enough when it comes to Evil dragon gods. Other roles that can be fufilled by dragon gods can also be filled with regional evil dragons.
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I've written a lizardfolk society that largely worships Kazutal (her whole thing fits so well with what I wanted). And the lizardfolk view her as, well, as a lizardfolk rather than a human. I've always been more of the type of person to, unless the deity is one of those mortals-become-deity like Cayden, have their forms be mutable and shift depending on who is viewing them either because the deity actively chooses the form or it's simply how the people are able to comprehend them.
Note that like how the earlier mention of how Desna has a different form in Starfinder (as well as different art in Mwangi!), Kazutal also has a whole different name to the Matanji Orcs.
Another example, Arshea has the following text:
"Their form is seen as ideal by any species that look upon them."
And is something I often use as an example that their forms are definitely not fixed.
Ayrzul also has multiple people claiming he has different appearances.
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I understand that they don't for art reasons (we need to be able to recognize Urgathoa, for example) but I would really like to have more of "Gods appear like a bunch of different things, based on what they're up to, who they're appearing to, or just whim."
Like they're Gods! They should be able to look like anything they want and that shouldn't necessarily always be the same thing.
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I would certainly like more gods who were dragons that ascended to godhood, like Cayden, Urgathoa, Iomedae, etc.
Also I would not be opposed to a dracolich partnering up with Urgathoa to be a dual god of undeath, because dracoliches are badass.
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I've written a lizardfolk society that largely worships Kazutal (her whole thing fits so well with what I wanted). And the lizardfolk view her as, well, as a lizardfolk rather than a human. I've always been more of the type of person to, unless the deity is one of those mortals-become-deity like Cayden, have their forms be mutable and shift depending on who is viewing them either because the deity actively chooses the form or it's simply how the people are able to comprehend them.
Note that like how the earlier mention of how Desna has a different form in Starfinder (as well as different art in Mwangi!), Kazutal also has a whole different name to the Matanji Orcs.
Another example, Arshea has the following text:
"Their form is seen as ideal by any species that look upon them."And is something I often use as an example that their forms are definitely not fixed.
Ayrzul also has multiple people claiming he has different appearances.
Huh, so like a dragon follower would see Arshea as a dragon?
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Huh, so like a dragon follower would see Arshea as a dragon?I've written a lizardfolk society that largely worships Kazutal (her whole thing fits so well with what I wanted). And the lizardfolk view her as, well, as a lizardfolk rather than a human. I've always been more of the type of person to, unless the deity is one of those mortals-become-deity like Cayden, have their forms be mutable and shift depending on who is viewing them either because the deity actively chooses the form or it's simply how the people are able to comprehend them.
Note that like how the earlier mention of how Desna has a different form in Starfinder (as well as different art in Mwangi!), Kazutal also has a whole different name to the Matanji Orcs.
Another example, Arshea has the following text:
"Their form is seen as ideal by any species that look upon them."And is something I often use as an example that their forms are definitely not fixed.
Ayrzul also has multiple people claiming he has different appearances.
In fact, Arshea often appears to followers in that person's own form. So a dragon follower would potentially see Arshea as not only a dragon, but their own self.
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I really dislike the association between a deity and a species/ancestry (and actually also to cultures). It creates useless duplicates, weakens the cosmogony and creates artificial boundaries between who your species/ancestry/culture should pray for and who it shouldn't.
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Pathfinder Infinite's Clerics+ offered an interesting idea by introducing "variant" versions of existing deities with differing alignments, edicts or anathemas, such as worshipping Abadar still being LN but as a god of invention, like Brigh but inventing for the purposes of advancing civilization rather than for its own sake, or a good-aligned interpretation of Lamashtu as a protector of outcasts and those whom society casts as monsters, sort of taking the concept of reclaiming Allbirth as a holiday displayed in the Lost Omens Travel Guide and running with it(This will probably change a bit once the Remaster is in place, as alignment will no longer be a factor, but shouldn't otherwise impact the core concept of unique splinter interpretations of the gods).
Included among these is a primarily kobold interpretation of Iomedae that basically believes Iomedae was actually a dragon in disguise. How else, these kobolds ask, would she have been able to perform the superhuman feats her Acts claim she did? Why else, they ask, would her draconic servant Peace-Through-Vigilance call her "Mother Iomedae?" They're still as noble and compassionate as your average Iomedaean, they just view her through a very dragon(and kobold)-centered lens. I think this idea's kind of on the right track, similar to how the Matanji worship Kazutal as Majagua: having different ancestries interpret the existing deities in ways unique to them instead of just continually introducing new ones (but keep introducing new ones as well, please, Yelayne was an AWESOME addition, filling a gap in the divine portfolios that had been bugging me for years!).
They are very interesting concepts and I like to deal with the deities. But it can be a little tricky to fit in sometimes because the "Greek" characteristics of these deities have a very close and direct relationship to the material plane. Either because some of them were once mortal, or because of some "true" form they prefer to assume.
So it's perfectly valid and amusing for a kobold cleric to believe that she was actually a dragon disguised as a human when mortal. However, the entire historical context of the game will go against this (although in fact this is not something that rare or unusual, after all, a certain dragon had precisely this habit and even fought alongside her in human form).
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They are very interesting concepts and I like to deal with the deities. But it can be a little tricky to fit in sometimes because the "Greek" characteristics of these deities have a very close and direct relationship to the material plane. Either because some of them were once mortal, or because of some "true" form they prefer to assume.
So it's perfectly valid and amusing for a kobold cleric to believe that she was actually a dragon disguised as a human when mortal. However, the entire historical context of the game will go against this (although in fact this is not something that rare or unusual, after all, a certain dragon had precisely this habit and even fought alongside her in human form).
True, but most of the time gods don't just SHOW UP to the Material Plane, even to their own clerics, who by definition are the most faithful of the faithful (you gotta be if your deities gonna trust you with spellcasting).
Even divine visions are going to be so steeped in metaphor and symbolism that may only make sense to the person receiving it. Seeing your deity in their literal, specific chosen form, a "one true form" as it were, is going to be vanishingly rare except in very specific circumstances (a la Wrath of the Righteous). To those who don't have that level of connection to the divine, all you're left with is scripture, which can be notoriously flexible and open to interpretation. And sometimes even true believers may choose an interpretation of scripture that benefits their own personal narrative (the kobolds who worship Iomedae as "The Wyrm-Mother" may insist the human form mainstream Iomedaeans worship is nothing more than convenient human propaganda, because they feel having Iomedae be an aspirational figure for koboldkind is more important than an "accurate" depiction of her would be, for example).
I would certainly like more gods who were dragons that ascended to godhood, like Cayden, Urgathoa, Iomedae, etc.
Also I would not be opposed to a dracolich partnering up with Urgathoa to be a dual god of undeath, because dracoliches are badass.
Unfortunately, I *think* dracoliches are OGL.
HOWEVER... I don't believe raveners are.
And tbh raveners scare me a whole hella lot more.
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Pathfinder Infinite's Clerics+ offered an interesting idea by introducing "variant" versions of existing deities with differing alignments, edicts or anathemas, such as worshipping Abadar still being LN but as a god of invention, like Brigh but inventing for the purposes of advancing civilization rather than for its own sake, or a good-aligned interpretation of Lamashtu as a protector of outcasts and those whom society casts as monsters, sort of taking the concept of reclaiming Allbirth as a holiday displayed in the Lost Omens Travel Guide and running with it(This will probably change a bit once the Remaster is in place, as alignment will no longer be a factor, but shouldn't otherwise impact the core concept of unique splinter interpretations of the gods).
Included among these is a primarily kobold interpretation of Iomedae that basically believes Iomedae was actually a dragon in disguise. How else, these kobolds ask, would she have been able to perform the superhuman feats her Acts claim she did? Why else, they ask, would her draconic servant Peace-Through-Vigilance call her "Mother Iomedae?" They're still as noble and compassionate as your average Iomedaean, they just view her through a very dragon(and kobold)-centered lens. I think this idea's kind of on the right track, similar to how the Matanji worship Kazutal as Majagua: having different ancestries interpret the existing deities in ways unique to them instead of just continually introducing new ones (but keep introducing new ones as well, please, Yelayne was an AWESOME addition, filling a gap in the divine portfolios that had been bugging me for years!).
Thank you very much for that mention of Clerics+!
Right next to it is a depiction of Lamashtu, the Wounded Mother and if I had a doubt about plunking down the money for just the Wyrm-Knight, the Wounded Mother went smack dab by my wheelhouse.
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I’m really, really curious if Alignment going the way of the dodo in PF2R means the setting will open up to varied interpretations of deities like that in canon. It’s one of my favorite bits of Eberron to have all those regional sects and syncretic beliefs around the Sovereigns and Six.
I immediately think that nothing will change, not least because there is no time for that. But over time I hope things will get more and more complex like you said.
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I don't think that Paizo is going to toss in a deity of "undeath, but dragon-flavored" when they already have a core deity of undeath. Ditto for beauty and magic. We also see from the dragon they showed us that the dragons are designed to fit into the existing world and lore as it exists. That said, it was a divine dragon with a tie to a plane, meaning that you can now connect any options tied to that plane (e.g. the upcoming nephelim heritage) to that type of dragon in your personal backstory.
Well, with the announcement of nine new dragon gods, I might be eating my words on this one! Place your bets, folks!
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I really dislike the association between a deity and a species/ancestry (and actually also to cultures). It creates useless duplicates, weakens the cosmogony and creates artificial boundaries between who your species/ancestry/culture should pray for and who it shouldn't.
I know this is an old post, but I strongly agree.
I actually quite dislike the idea of introducing many deities for a specific ancestries, especially when it is one players can't play.
To me it's one thing to mention that dragons have deities they venerate that are different from many of the deities others venerate, but I don't personally see value in detailing lots of new dragon deities that (to me) don't seem like the would be good for PCs to worship? What separates them from one of the core deities?
Anyways seems like we getting more...which disappoints me in the sense that that page space could have been used for something more universally applicable but that's just like my opinion man.
I prefer for monstrous deities to be broad enough where it makes sense for different ancestries to worship them. The occasional creator deity is fine, but it's not super interesting to simply be the deity of an arbitrary group - deities of particular concepts are much more flexible. A deity of greed being a dragon certainly makes sense, but there's every reason for any given greedy person to worship them.
Even something like "god of long lifespans" or "goddess of scaly creatures" has plenty of room, as short-lived beings could aspire to be or respect the long-lived and people might adore or fear scaly things in their area without being scaly themselves.
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Any dragon who would ascend to God hood should fit the bill. We have whole pantheons for giants and such. To me dragon gods would make more sense to be broader and larger in scope, covering more ideas.
Like greed as a base would also include organizing things, designing things, construction, creation and self improvement. Focused on an interest in getting more, getting better, and being efficient.
A broader scope would make it harder for shorter lived creatures to get as much out of, but longer lived creatures would have a naturally wider and longer lens to view from. What would a dragon who ascends take as their interests and domains? I think that's a very interesting thing to delve into.
I don't think that Paizo is going to toss in a deity of "undeath, but dragon-flavored" when they already have a core deity of undeath. Ditto for beauty and magic. We also see from the dragon they showed us that the dragons are designed to fit into the existing world and lore as it exists. That said, it was a divine dragon with a tie to a plane, meaning that you can now connect any options tied to that plane (e.g. the upcoming nephelim heritage) to that type of dragon in your personal backstory.Well, with the announcement of nine new dragon gods, I might be eating my words on this one! Place your bets, folks!
Unless I'm mistaken, the source for that is a marketing blurb that simply states nine draconic gods will be in the dragon book. Do we have any indication they're all fully new and not reprints? (I'm sure some will be new but Paizo does reprint deities in Lost Omens books when they're relevant. So the 9 could easily include gods like Apsu, Dahak, or Shizuru.)
Aren't what "archdragons" supposed to be???
Aren't what "archdragons" supposed to be???If I recall, it's the non-OGL replacement for the term "great wyrm" - basically, the term referring to the oldest and most powerful of dragons.
My reasoning is how not all Archdevils are deities like Asmodeus, just like not all Demon Lords are deities like Lamashtu. In both cases, they grant spells and domains nonetheless.
For me, those "archdragons" feel like VERY ancient dragons, powerful enough to grant divine favors.
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Aren't what "archdragons" supposed to be???If I recall, it's the non-OGL replacement for the term "great wyrm" - basically, the term referring to the oldest and most powerful of dragons.My reasoning is how not all Archdevils are deities like Asmodeus, just like not all Demon Lords are deities like Lamashtu. In both cases, they grant spells and domains nonetheless.
For me, those "archdragons" feel like VERY ancient dragons, powerful enough to grant divine favors.
All archdevils and demon lords are at least demigods, though, which is why they can grant divine power.
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Aren't what "archdragons" supposed to be???If I recall, it's the non-OGL replacement for the term "great wyrm" - basically, the term referring to the oldest and most powerful of dragons.My reasoning is how not all Archdevils are deities like Asmodeus, just like not all Demon Lords are deities like Lamashtu. In both cases, they grant spells and domains nonetheless.
For me, those "archdragons" feel like VERY ancient dragons, powerful enough to grant divine favors.
Misunderstanding on my part. Thought you were asking what archdragons are.
I'd say it's almost definite that we'll get reprints of Apsu and Dahak as Dragon deities. More uncertain about Shizuru; she may or may not appear, though personally I'd label her as enough of a dragon god. Now regarding the others...
The one I'm most certain will appear is Garhaazh, the "Primal King". I was in fact expecting to see him in Divine Mysteries, but it makes sense he was absent if he's saved for here. Now the question is whether him being the first Primal dragon refers to Primal the spell tradition or Primal the dragon category; either one could give us clues to the remaining deities. If it's the tradition, we may get deities for divine/arcane/occult dragons as well. If not, then perhaps the missing dragon categories (Esoteric, Outer) would also be getting a deity. In such an outcome Shizuru could stand in as the Imperial Dragon's deity. Though I'm less inclined that they'll go that route.