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Many of our favorite legacy D&D monsters will not be reprinted in Monster Core, which means that they will likely not appear in future Paizo adventures, and I'm mourning a few of them.
In PF1, one of my PFS characters, Baroness Bobbi, had an adorably incompetent pet Owlbear named Hoot. (The Owlbear was incompetent because it was based on the underpowered bear companion -- thank goodness PF2 fixed up many of the less optimal animal companions!) Hoot accompanied her everywhere, and ran into battle with a cry of "Hooooooooot!" whereupon he'd miss every single enemy. As a result, I'll always have affection for Owlbears.
I'm also going to miss Otyughs for their Oscar the Grouch, kings of the trash quality. One of the best PFS NPCs of all time was Hats, an Otyugh who truly loved his headgear and would balance hats on his tentacles and manipulate them like puppets. I had really hoped at one point for an otyugh ancestry in PF2, and once considered writing a Starfinder adventure involving a revolution on a space station starting with an Otyugh trash union because managemement would not let them have their slam poetry night.
What are your favorite OGL monsters? Who will you miss and why?
Hmm
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I had really hoped at one point for an otyugh ancestry in PF2, and once considered writing a Starfinder adventure involving a revolution on a space station starting with Otyugh trash union because managemement would not let them have their slam poetry night
I now want to see this on starfinder infinite :'D
But yeah, I have weird fondness for dire corbies xD
So... I'm pretty sure that Dire Wolves came straight out of Tolkein, and weren't meaningfully modified. Sure, D&D then turned that into a profusion of "Dire [animal]" templates, but the "Dire" modifier itself was pretty generic.
Dire Corbies may still be viable.
Th Otyughs are a loss... but i feel like it's one that could be readily replaced by some other trash-dwelling aberration.
Aboleths. Sure Paizo has fleshed out enough variety of Veiled Masters that losing the OG won't affect the setting much. But it still stings.
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So... I'm pretty sure that Dire Wolves came straight out of Tolkein, and weren't meaningfully modified. Sure, D&D then turned that into a profusion of "Dire [animal]" templates, but the "Dire" modifier itself was pretty generic.
Dire Corbies may still be viable.
Th Otyughs are a loss... but i feel like it's one that could be readily replaced by some other trash-dwelling aberration.
Paizo already dropped the dire modifier for everything but wolves. There have been two dire wolf and warg variants published in adventures, and that's it. Everything else is now "giant rat" or used it's real world name if applicable, like smilodon instead of dire tiger. So we may get Dire Corbies but they won't be called Dire Corbies.
I realized we might lose golems as we know them. While golems have their origins in real world legends, making the name and general concept safe... The specific antimagic mechanics originated in D&D. 5e isn't currently using them from what I can tell but it still feels dicey. And that would be a shame to lose. Golems needed errata but created unique and interesting encounters.
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I will be sad to see less blue dragons, though the new ones excite me much more than the classics.
I imagine we'll also lose purple worms, bulettes, and ropers. Admittedly, I'm... not so worried about those?
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So... I'm pretty sure that Dire Wolves came straight out of Tolkein, and weren't meaningfully modified. Sure, D&D then turned that into a profusion of "Dire [animal]" templates, but the "Dire" modifier itself was pretty generic.
Dire Corbies may still be viable.
Th Otyughs are a loss... but i feel like it's one that could be readily replaced by some other trash-dwelling aberration.
Dire wolves came straight out of the fossil record, so they're pretty well public domain these days.
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Dire wolves came straight out of the fossil record, so they're pretty well public domain these days.
If it's one thing James the dinosaur king Jacobs knows about, it's fossil records.
I will be sad to see less blue dragons, though the new ones excite me much more than the classics.
What's happening with the dragons?
(I'm trying I catch up.)
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I will be sad to see less blue dragons, though the new ones excite me much more than the classics.What's happening with the dragons?
(I'm trying I catch up.)
I've heard that dragons-by-color are basically going away, and the strong alignment typing nearly guaranteed to go with that... opening up opportunities for them to do all sorts of new dragon typing systems and associated new dragon things. I know no further details, though, and I'm not entirely certain about even that.
Purple worms are also so blatantly Dune inspired that I doubt Wizards would try anything. They'd be leaving themselves liable to get sued themselves, especially with Dune being a major motion picture franchise now.
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Brass Dragon Boi…
*Sad harmonica music*
My precious, precious brass boi…
*Sad harmonica*
Oh how much you talked… and sought out for frens…
*SAD HARMONICA MUSIC INTENSIFIES*
the new dragons, might not be as friendly as you… my precious, sweet, brass boi….
*Harmonica solo*
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Purple worms are also so blatantly Dune inspired that I doubt Wizards would try anything. They'd be leaving themselves liable to get sued themselves, especially with Dune being a major motion picture franchise now.
Worms of Arrakis aren't purple, don't have poisonous stingers, and only tunnel through sand. They're also not called the same. In contrast, purple worms don't have any particular relationship with either water or drugs, and there's nothing about walking without rhythm or riding them via hooks. That's a fair bit of insulation there.
Basing your security on "Wizards won't try anything"? Based on recent events, that feels like a bad bet.
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Thanks, perpdepog and Sanityfaery. :)
The dragon changes sound really interesting. The whole "metal for good dragons" and "colors for bad dragons" thing never made any sense to me.
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The classic chromatic and metallic dragons are being replaced with new dragons that are grouped into loose families based on different magical traditions. Think the Primal Dragons and Occult Dragons that already exist, but with arcane and divine thrown into the mix as well.I will be sad to see less blue dragons, though the new ones excite me much more than the classics.What's happening with the dragons?
(I'm trying I catch up.)
We're not replacing those dragons, just to be clear.
For the remastered game, we're recategorizing dragon groupings, and the first monster book will have new dragons in it, mostly to "boost the signal" for dragons we've created for our game from scratch.
The chromatic and metallic dragons are still things you can encounter in Golarion, and their stats as presented in the 2E Bestiary will still work for the game, but the new "baseline monster book" won't feature them.
So it's less about replacing them than it is "making more dragons for the game and shifting focus to the new ones" I guess.
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I'm going to miss Otyughs the most. I just loved the idea of an incredibly disgusting monster that is also sapient, does not mean you harm, and is inherently reasonable.
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Dire wolves came straight out of the fossil record, so they're pretty well public domain these days.So... I'm pretty sure that Dire Wolves came straight out of Tolkein, and weren't meaningfully modified. Sure, D&D then turned that into a profusion of "Dire [animal]" templates, but the "Dire" modifier itself was pretty generic.
Dire Corbies may still be viable.
Th Otyughs are a loss... but i feel like it's one that could be readily replaced by some other trash-dwelling aberration.
Quick, someone find an owlbear fossil!
If the chromatic/metallic dragon won't make it in the new book ( the one that will be the base remastered monster book ), won't be shifting on new dragons, without having access to the old ones is somehow replacing them?
I mean, those who are going to play 2e remastered won't have chromatic/metallic. Is it right?
Would the stats of the current ones be ok until will be released new monster books?
You're looking at it wrong.
2e is 2e. The new monster book coming out isn't going to make metallic dragons obsolete any more than printing Monster Manual 2 made Monster Manual 1 obsolete.
Those who play entirely off of dead tree copies and do not acquire a dead tree copy of the old monster book will not have metallic or chromatic dragons to play with, but anyone who *does* get the old dead tree version *will*, and they'll all be in Nethys regardless.
They won't be in any APs or anything going forward, but that means exactly nothing for anyone who's either making their own campaign or running an older AP.
The stats of the current ones will continue to be okay forever regardless... though it's true that if you want to play with the new kinds of dragons, you're going to have to wait until the new kinds of dragons get published.
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Does that mean that we will still see mimics and otyughs in Paizo adventures?
Monsters that aren't possible for us to include in an ORC product because they are only available to us because of the SRD and OGL will not appear in ORC products, including ORC adventures.
Which monsters are and are not on that list is a VERY complicated tangle and one we're still sorting out, and I'm not sure when we'll be making that list public.
Some of those monsters are obvious. Some are not. Some that SEEM obvious are in fact fine to keep without the OGL in sight.
But there will be a period of adjustment for folks who have grown used to seeing some of these creatures appear now and then in our adventures, yes, in the same way folks many years back had to adjust to not seeing carrion crawlers or mind flayers or beholders in adventures.
If we do our job right, there'll be plenty of creatures to inspire GMs and terrorize players so that the monsters that are missed won't be missed for too long.
If we don't, well, those monsters' stats remain 100% compatible with the remastered rules so you'll still be able to swap them in published adventures you run as you see fit.
The classic chromatic and metallic dragons are being replaced with new dragons that are grouped into loose families based on different magical traditions. Think the Primal Dragons and Occult Dragons that already exist, but with arcane and divine thrown into the mix as well.I will be sad to see less blue dragons, though the new ones excite me much more than the classics.What's happening with the dragons?
(I'm trying I catch up.)
We're not replacing those dragons, just to be clear.
For the remastered game, we're recategorizing dragon groupings, and the first monster book will have new dragons in it, mostly to "boost the signal" for dragons we've created for our game from scratch.
The chromatic and metallic dragons are still things you can encounter in Golarion, and their stats as presented in the 2E Bestiary will still work for the game, but the new "baseline monster book" won't feature them.
So it's less about replacing them than it is "making more dragons for the game and shifting focus to the new ones" I guess.
Thanks! That's good to know. It will be interesting to see what you all come up with for the new dragons and for dragon-based abilities like the Kobold Draconic Exemplar ones.
I am super-excited about the Remaster, by the way. PF2 was an incredibly well-designed system from the start, especially considering how different the mechanics were from PF2. I was a hard-sell, but you won me over.
I can't wait to see what you can all do with it now that you've had all of this playtime and feedback to work with. I'm guessing that we'll get a streamlined and easier to access rule-set with some welcome revisions of a few elements that didn't quite balance with the others.
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I don't know if mimics will make the cut, which is a shame because everyone has loved Big Lock, a new mimic ally who's been appearing all through the Organized Play metaplot this year. I look forward to seeing what Paizo does with the monster reboot, though.
Thanks for joining us here, James!
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If the chromatic/metallic dragon won't make it in the new book ( the one that will be the base remastered monster book ), won't be shifting on new dragons, without having access to the old ones is somehow replacing them?
I mean, those who are going to play 2e remastered won't have chromatic/metallic. Is it right?
Would the stats of the current ones be ok until will be released new monster books?
You're looking at it wrong.
2e is 2e. The new monster book coming out isn't going to make metallic dragons obsolete any more than printing Monster Manual 2 made Monster Manual 1 obsolete.
It doesn't seem that 2e is going to remain 2e ( talking about accessibility with the new books ).
For example, a new group starting with the remastered ( if I properly understood Jacobs ) won't have in the remastered monster book ( the base one ) chromatic/metallic dragons, but new or different ones.
This would mean that, at least for what concerns the beginning, they won't have them in their books ( I am not talking about making some creature obsolete, like you said ), but probably in the second or third one ( if I got it right, and Paizo is just postponing them ).
ps: ofc nethys/pathbuilder will always be there, but I was talking about books.
Not the point I was trying to make. The goal of the remastered game is that it's still 2nd edition and still compatible with the game. 2nd edition will remain 2nd edition once the remastered books are the new baseline.
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I kept reading dire corbies as dire corgis, which excited me until I realized I was misreading the comments. Although, I imagine a dire corgi as just being a normal sized dog.
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I am very sad with this news, but I understand its necessity. There was Thugmofos, the friendly otyugh we met in our old Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign we met periodically on our adventures! The Giant Owlbear from Kingmaker! I'm just going to miss these beasties so much! T_T
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I'm worried about the rust monster, gelatinous cube, mimic, and flumph myself.
"Ohhh, won't somebody please think of the children flumphs!"
That’s it! I am now obsessed with the idea that I must have dire corgis in my world.
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The loss of the ettercap and phase spider will hurt the most. I may be an arachnophobe, but those two monsters were fantastically cool and flavorful. Shoutout as well to the owlbear and (never-adapted) aranea, and all the old silly monsters like flumphs and wolves-in-sheep's-clothing. I feel bad for the locathah and grippli* fans, too, though they'll likely get off with a rename.
*I'm assuming grippli are OGL?
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*I'm assuming grippli are OGL?
The name grippli sure is, but a frog person as a general concept is very broad and generally usable by anyone. Playable frog people could feasibly remain in Pathfinder 2E post remaster with relatively minor tweaking. There's already an example of us doing something similar by renaming gnolls to kholo and including them as a playable ancestry in Player Core 2.
Additionally, since the rules in the 2E remaster are relatively unchanged, playing with the grippli ancestry rules from Mwangi Expanse in the future should be a generally seamless process.
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Yeah, that was kinda what I was guessing--"frogfolk" or what-have-you instead of grippli, "fishfolk" or what-have-you instead of locathah.
It's probably a good thing Paizo doesn't have us lizardratdogfolk coming up with the names for things.
Thank you for the clarification!
It's unclear whether that will be enough for every monster. Otyughs, for example.