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I see a lot of people saying the Kineticists is too inaccurate with both blasts and class DC. I strongly encourage folks play test it and see.
Air and fire have great range and agile. Agile on range weapons is unheard of and by level 4, when you get a 2 action 3 attack ability, a +2 on spamming attacks. Throwing stoke element on that can be a lot of extra damage and will absolutely shred lower level enemies in mass, which is the clear focus of the class. This should be better expressed in the class description.
Earth has propulsive and a feat to use str for ranged attacks with a D8 damage die! This is better damage than a long bow. Your range is rightfully quite limited, and your accuracy should suffer for it, but with forceful, making lots of attacks can still be worth it cause your damage will be brutal. Chain blast is absolutely sickening.
Water gets the accuracy booster of sweep.
The accuracy boosting on this class is primarily about targeting multiple enemies. You are only behind other martials by 1, about half of the time, and you make that up usually if you attack 2 enemies or more.
DCs:
Your areas of effect on two action spammable abilities are gonzo. They are bigger than most spells at comparable levels and the damage can be boosted from stoke element. You will be the best AoE martial in the game by a long shot, and a destroyer of armies. You will struggle as a striker vs single target enemies.
This was all very carefully designed to work this way. Just like a monk spamming flurry of blows with stunning fist, you get your good effects by targeting enough people to catch some in some bad rolls.
Hopefully this analysis helps folks see what is going on with the accuracy and how the accuracy boosts are factored in to getting lots of attacks each round.
In combat, the kineticist is a sub-machine gun firing indiscriminate bursts of small rounds, not a sniper rifle. Maybe the Metal element could work differently, but that is the general expectation of this play test class.
No one is coming after fighters or gunslingers for single target damage.
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But targetting multiple opponents with attacks like that is like, pretty bad. Especially past level 8. Every experience I've had tells me that focused fire is superior for single attacks for a system that tends to like sending "boss" encounters at us with single large targets. Being Bumi, Slayer of Fodder isn't worth much when everyone can slay fodder.
And Forceful without baseline martial accuracy isn't really worth much.
It's like being a cyclist at a motorcycle club. It's cool, but you're not exactly playing the same game.
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Have you playtested it Unicore? You're offering a lot of theorycrafting on why some of these abilities are good, but how does that hold up in practice?
You're putting enormous value on the agile trait, and kind of glossing over combat mechanics. It all feels very white room.
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Well, the whole class is pretty clearly designed around it. Play test it. See how it feels and give your feedback on surveys.
Maybe APs are gearing towards less solo fights and more dungeons full of nooks who will mobilize and attack you all at once. Home brewing encounters like this has been met with overwhelming excitement by my players. Kineticists will clean hous in these attrition encounters.
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My question is why does it need to be less accurate than other martials at only levels 1-4 (assuming that proficiency scaling is an error), 10-14, and level 20? What's so much weaker about its other features at 5-9 and 15-19 that it's suddenly balanced for this class to equal other martials? Is this class so OP for half of its career that it needs to take a -1 malus to hit for the other half? Is that even good design, for it to be relatively weaker at some levels so it can be stronger at others, what justifies this?
Also, what apex item is a Kineticist choosing? If you want to use your AoE save abilities and to not be at -1 to your DC compared to spellcasters, and -3(!) from level 19, then you have to choose Constitution. But if you don't choose Dex/Str then that puts you at -1 to hit compared to martials from 17-19 which goes to -2 to hit at level 20! Those are not trivial gaps.
Maybe as a compromise Kineticists should be allowed to choose any physical key ability score, but regardless their class DC still scales off of Constitution. So if you want to be Striking all day then you can pick Str or Dex, but if you want to be dropping that AoE like it's hot (or cold) then you can choose to focus on Constitution.
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Your areas of effect on two action spammable abilities are gonzo.
Calling them two actions is too generous, they all have overflow which means you need to use a third action to do anything again. This makes them very not spammable (and extremely weak to any kind of action disruption).
Stoke Element also is a +2 damage (or +4 if you use overflow) to a single roll and for some reason can't be used on the same turn making it a very clunky mechanic. It doesn't scale either so the ability will be worse and worse as you level up. I don't think it really compares favourably with something like dangerous sorcery.
Calling them bigger than spells also feels way too generous, at character level 5 fireball is a 500ft ranged 20ft burst ability. They are a bit better than the character level 1 burning hands but I don't think that is a good benchmark to comparing stuff with.
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On the topic of agile:
An elf wizard with a shortbow does more damage with two attacks than a kineticist with air elemental blasts until weapon specializaion. The trait is not worth that much unless you can really spam attacks.
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Stoke Element does scale as you level, it still doesn't seem worth the feat/action much of the time though.
Right, that is my bad, the page cut off making me believe that was the end of the ability.
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You are not the first person I have seen who missed that because of the page cut off.
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Have you playtested it Unicore? You're offering a lot of theorycrafting on why some of these abilities are good, but how does that hold up in practice?
You're putting enormous value on the agile trait, and kind of glossing over combat mechanics. It all feels very white room.
I am curious how these decisions will play out in game too, but agile and sweep are accuracy adjusters for making multiple attacks. The whole design of the class for the play test is clearly focused on this.
Second and third attacks are rough, but they are what Kineticists get a lot of abilities to make in the play test. Agile is no help on it, but Think about sweep and forceful with chain blast. Agile is more about blast barrage
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Sweep is only on the melee water blast btw.
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Sweep is only on the melee water blast btw.
And forceful is only earth melee.
I missed that forceful and sweep are melee only. That makes them limited to blast barrage, but the point about the class being designed for making lots of attacks against multiple foes still seems pretty obvious and intentional
A note on design about being good at aoe but not single target damage.
Take a -2 enemy, it does feel pretty good to aoe them down but single target strikers are also amplified vs these. They lose about 50% of defenses with -3 AC and the strikers crit a lot on these, doing massive damage and cc:ing them with critical specialization.
Meanwhile vs a single stronger enemy (often used for climatic encounters) the power goes into a very feels bad territory if you have lower damage and your accuracy on top of that is much worse. Kineticist also seems to be quite bad at targeting multiple saves so you can get stonewalled vs something with a strong save.
In an aoe encounter the single target strikers still participate and do impactful things so you really need to be able to do that as well with the kinecisist in single target encounters.
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I am not arguing wether this design decision is the best one or not. I am saying it was the one made for the play test, so it is best to understand that. The class is riddled with accuracy boosts to attack, but only against multiple different foes.
The AoEs and emanations get pretty large too.
Agaist bosses, most elements appear to best shine in support roles with the occasional odd attack
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I am not arguing wether this design decision is the best one or not.
The playtest forums seems like a good place to do so :)
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The big accuracy problem is that they get their proficiency boost at 7th instead of 5 like the other non-casters with non-Str/Dex mainstats.
The Investigator, Inventor, and Thaumaturge all get expert attacks at 5th. The Kineticist should not have to wait until 7th. Having a weird hiccup where your accuracy lags behind comparable classes is undesirable.
Sure the Kineticist attacks differently than those classes, but they're all still targeting AC with to-hit based on Str or Dex and supported by weapon runes.
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On the topic of agile:
An elf wizard with a shortbow does more damage with two attacks than a kineticist with air elemental blasts until weapon specializaion. The trait is not worth that much unless you can really spam attacks.
To be precise, agile is, with variations based on circumstances, worth about one die size increase.
One problem the kineticist runs into is that agile scales with static damage modifiers (as in, the harder you hit, the more valuable agile is) and the kineticist lacks many of those.
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My main concern is for sure the DCs being low. I would love it if the kineticist really was a 'destroyer of wheenies' class, being able to wipe them out all day. But I play an elemental sorcerer in my game (he's level 14 now) and while he does pretty well against wheenies I get pretty frustrated with them succeeding on their saves very often. Kineticist is going to do a lot less damage considering lower DCs and lower damage numbers. I understand a sorcerer is going to be better when using resources, but I do think the gap is a little big still.
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About attack rolls:
I too am a little curious about crit specialization being 5th level and the accuracy boost being at 7th level, and whether those could be changed.
Crit specialization on this class is interesting but problematic for a number of reasons (not the least of which is that it adds "splash damage" to water attacks on a critical success, which just further complicates what splash damage is for everything else that references it. It seems to be occupying two roles in this game but is not being well distinguished which one is which, but all of this is an aside).
I still try to understand design intention before demanding specific intentions, as well as playing with a class as intended in the playtest before jumping to conclusions.
I think the "trick" complicating accuracy with blasts for this class, is that the class gets so many options to make a lot of attacks against a lot of different enemies.
On Whiteboard DPR calculations against 1 or 2 enemies, it is going to start looking pretty bad. In play, APs have been written to feature a lot of fights against 1 or 2 enemies though, so the instinct to evaluate the class on that metric isn't inherently a bad one, it is just counter to the design of the playtest class. There are also numerous "Open Pit" style encounter situations in Pathfinder APs where it is kind of on the GM to decide whether the throw 3 or more encounters at the PCs or not. Well prepared casters have been able to handle these encounters pretty well, but martials tend to get over run by them and they result in a lot of TPKs when run dynamically. If there is communication between adventure design and game development, it could be the case that developing a Martial class to this space is an intention moving forward, but we play testers can't really know this.
I think a lot of people came into this playtest hoping for an all day blaster that would be a hyper accurate laser and not a wide mouthed flame thrower, and there is nowhere in the current design playtest for that sniper-like, take one shot a round build.
Could there be separate paths? I am not sure. Boosting accuracy on attacks that can target up to 5 enemies throws math onto a roller coaster. I think the multiple attack options would all have to shift onto Save DC abilities and not reside in things like Blast Barrage and Chain Blast. The elemental blasts would have to be completely redesigned not to be so focused on iterative attacks. These would be incredibly large changes to the class that feel like they would need a separate playtest to me, although maybe it is the thing they are trying to feel out and they have a whole back up plan based around more traditional PF2 models. Maybe two paths split between attack roll accuracy and save targeting blasts is something that hardly even needs a playtest.
That said, is the attribute issue even that relevant to this conversation?
Would a +1 at levels 1 to 4, 10 to 14 and 20 even make that big a difference? At level 1 to 3, the class is limited to making one attack per action so is probably looking at a best case scenario of making about 2.5 attacks a round if they are making attacks and not using overflow save targeting abilities. With agile or sweep, these second attacks are breaking even. With agile, the third attack is ahead of standard martials on accuracy at range. A +1 one here would put kineticists ahead on accuracy with ranged attack rolls.
5th level gets weird because of the proficiency thing, and I am going to leave it alone because there are too many moving pieces. I would prefer the class to get expert proficiency at 5. At the same time, with blast barrage and a decent range, the Kineticist could be making 3 to 4 attacks a round very regularly. That means there will be crits by sheer volume of attacks and having cool crit effects on elemental effects feels like it should be a thing. Should it really have to wait until 5th level? Again, when making 3 to 4 attacks a round, agile and sweep both pull a lot of weight for accuracy boosting in a way that might feel invisible to many players. Especially when a damage booster like Stoke element kicks in pretty hard when you can make 4 attacks a round.
But you are going to miss a lot, and you can't focus fire so the damage will be pretty spread out over all the enemies. There will be many situations where that will mean leaving many enemies wounded rather than finishing off someone before they can go. The kineticists ability to do battlefield control plays directly in to how successful of a strategy this can be. If they cannot get multiple enemies wasting actions on their own turn, it is going to go bad for the Kineticist's whole party.
The next big game changer is level 10 with Chain blast. Whether they get expert at 5 or 7 is irrelevant to this feat. Agile also becomes irrelevant to this feat, and Earth and Water suddenly get much, much better. Earth is getting up to 5 attacks with a d8 die weapon with propulsive at no map. That is very, very good. Water's sweep option is left high and dry here, since it is ranged attacks only, but it is still 5 attacks with a D8 weapon at no map penalty for 2 actions. These two feats (Blast Barrage and Chain Blast) are eating into a lot of design space for the Kineticist and their perceived accuracy issues.
I really, strongly recommend aiming for playtesting the class at both levels 5 and 7, as well as level 10 to see how this class feels over the course of these major changes
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About saves:
Casters are trained on DCs until level 7.
If attacking with save abilities is your jam, the kineticist gets great options with each element right from level 1 and can have the same saving throw DC as Casters until level 7.
At levels 1 to 4, you can be making a lot bigger AoE attacks than casters can and you can do it very often, although it will often take 3 actions to pull off. Arial boomerang and tidal Hands destroy cantrips for how much potential damage they can do. Earth and Fire's save attacks at level 1 are not as good, but they are not terrible. If you are playing a Fire Kineticist, it seems like you are going to need to figure out how to make the rest of your party resistant to fire pretty quickly.
At level 7 casters jump you and will be doing better attacks with spell slots than you will be doing with your overflow mechanics...But you also just got your attack rolls boosted and should be able to target 3 or 4 enemies a turn pretty regularly now with those attacks.
Right now, I think the class is very much designed around the expectation that you do both attack roll attacks and save attacks fairly often and that you don't try to overspecialize in one or the other.
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Could there be separate paths? I am not sure. Boosting accuracy on attacks that can target up to 5 enemies throws math onto a roller coaster. I think the multiple attack options would all have to shift onto Save DC abilities and not reside in things like Blast Barrage and Chain Blast.
Stuff like this makes little sense to me, if the entire class is being balanced around Chain Blast then what if you don't pick it? Also I think Chain Blast is being very over valued here in terms of being a pillar of the design.
Chain Blast is insane? Look at a giant barbarian with 20ft reach and whirlwind strike (same range as earth ranged attack). Multitarget damage cannot be judged on the same metric as single target damage.
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On the topic of agile:
An elf wizard with a shortbow does more damage with two attacks than a kineticist with air elemental blasts until weapon specializaion. The trait is not worth that much unless you can really spam attacks.
To be precise, agile is, with variations based on circumstances, worth about one die size increase.
One problem the kineticist runs into is that agile scales with static damage modifiers (as in, the harder you hit, the more valuable agile is) and the kineticist lacks many of those.
yeah every single martial class has some sort of mechanic to boosteither the damage (rage sneak ect) or accuracy (fighter stratagem ect) of their basic strikes, kinetics has at best stoke, which isn't a good comparison
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Not only do they not get expert proficiency in attacks with their blasts until level 7, they can't start out with an 18 in their attack stat unlike other martial classes.
It's the exact same issues that the warpriest has.
This is a surface level observation that ignores the way Kineticist get around MAP for their accuracy issues.
The much bigger issue is that it becomes dependent on having multiple targets to attack at higher levels, but at levels 1 to 4 that doesn't actually mater because you can always stand still and attack a bunch.
Air and fire can do this from range and be more accurate than any martial except a flurry ranger or a fighter. Earth's damage potential is higher than even a fighter with a long bow (STR of 18 for attack and half damage on Ranged is very good). Water is a little awkwardly pushed into melee for the accuracy boost of sweep, but then going to get punished at 5th level when they get their crit specialization.
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About saves:
Casters are trained on DCs until level 7.
If attacking with save abilities is your jam, the kineticist gets great options with each element right from level 1 and can have the same saving throw DC as Casters until level 7.
At levels 1 to 4, you can be making a lot bigger AoE attacks than casters can and you can do it very often, although it will often take 3 actions to pull off. Arial boomerang and tidal Hands destroy cantrips for how much potential damage they can do. Earth and Fire's save attacks at level 1 are not as good, but they are not terrible. If you are playing a Fire Kineticist, it seems like you are going to need to figure out how to make the rest of your party resistant to fire pretty quickly.
At level 7 casters jump you and will be doing better attacks with spell slots than you will be doing with your overflow mechanics...But you also just got your attack rolls boosted and should be able to target 3 or 4 enemies a turn pretty regularly now with those attacks.
Right now, I think the class is very much designed around the expectation that you do both attack roll attacks and save attacks fairly often and that you don't try to overspecialize in one or the other.
Regarding early level impulse damage, I see what you mean, but I do think you may be overvaluing the damage those impulses can do. You're not wrong, of course, but I would say it would be pretty rare for aerial boomerang to hit more than 2 people. Tidal hands is another story, maybe the best impulse with it's variable area and strong damage even at level one. But yeah the stronger damaging cantrips costing one less action (since you have to gather element again after overflow) and giving spell mod to damage means they are usually going to do more damage against one or two targets. Bumping up early level damage impulses to 2d6 or taking away a damage dice and adding con to damage would go a long way I feel.
I would not be surprised if there is a damage boost coming in the reworking of the class. That is easy to add and will satiate a lot of folks with complaints. Really minor accuracy shifts might happen as well (like switching expert with attacks to level 5). None of that changes what the class is built to do though.
I am not sure I love the Kineticist as a class focused on multiple target damage if APs keep the same rate of solo enemies and partitioned encounters that are prevelent in early APs. A kineticist in Abomination vaults would be a difficult choice unless the GM really shifts around encounters. In Age of Ashes, there would actually be quite a few encounter locations where a Kineticist would really shine though, same with what I have seen of Extinction Curse as well. Preparing Blood Lords, It seems like the Kineticist would do very, very well, but that also has a lot to do with the kite-ability of zombies.
I think part of what might be getting tested in the play test is how much the AoE abilities actually get used and how people feel about them in comparison to spells in play. If folks are generally unhappy with them, boosting the accuracy on them is easy and lots of people will say "YAY! The Legendary Class DC class!"
As far as single target damage. I am realizing that Dual Gate is probably the best single target option, and I haven't really looked into the math of it yet.
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Air and fire can do this from range and be more accurate than any martial except a flurry ranger or a fighter.Air basically doesn't have an elemental blast. I can't overstate just how piddly 1d4 physical damage is, even with ranged agile.
Take an Acolyte of Nethys, the first level 1 creature alphabetically. An aerokineticist will deal on average 2.5 damage at ranged, and will hit on a 9, a 13, and a 17. That means the they will deal:
.45*0+.5*2.5+.05*5 + .65*0+.3*2.5+.05*5 = 2.5 round 1 (13.5 HP)
.45*0+.5*2.5+.05*5 + .65*0+.3*2.5+.05*5 + .8*0 + .15*2.5+.05*5 = 3.125 round 2 (10.375 HP)
3.125 round 3 (7.25 HP)
3.125 round 4 (4.125 HP)
3.125 round 5 (1 HP)
3.125 round 6 (-2.125 HP) That's 6 rounds to kill a level 1 creature at level one, doing nothing at all but blasting. In comparison, here is a Giant Instinct Barbarian with a Greatsword, using Rage, Sudden Charge, then Stride + Strikex2. They hit on an 8, then a 13 for 16.5 damage.
.4*0+.45*16.5+.1*31 = 10.31 round 1 (5.7 HP)
.4*0+.45*16.5+.1*31 + .65*0+.3*16.5+.05*31 = 17.025 round 2 (-11.325 HP) This gets catastrophically worse against creatures with any amount of resistances, which is not uncommon. It would take an unfathomable amount of time for an air kineticist to deal with a Vampire Bat Swarm with its elemental blast at level 1.
You are comparing an ability with 120ft range to THE Melee Martial damage option, and looking at both from a one on one perspective.
Against the Bat Swarm, the Areokineticist will be using Arial Boomerang, and staying as far back as possible. I would much, much rather be the Areokineticist than the Barbarian against a bat swarm.
Fusion Blast does seem to be the best single target.Fusion blast is basically just using two different strikes with a single attack roll. Problem is the damage of the two strikes isn't necessarily great. Like, if you're dual element and one is air it's crap, just use your other element twice and save the feat.
I think the point of fusion blast with Air is to make your first attack at a range of 120ft, and then tag on a D8 damage die.
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Air is way too low, because honestly any range value over 60' doesn't matter. I can count on 1 hand the number of times a map that large has ever been used in a game i've been part of. Whether it's a limit of the battle maps used or average table size, we just don't really see anything happen at those ranges due to practical limits.
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Fusion Blast is yet another Power Attack and thus doesn't even beat just attacking twice. Air + MAP-4 Air is more damage than Air + Water fusion blast because of elemental runes. Two Earth strikes does also beat Fusion Blast with Earth + Water.
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It is fine to dismiss picking one of four options because you do not think it is a good match for your specific style of play, but there are a lot of pretty wide open battle maps in many of Paizo's own AP, and I tend to make big battle maps when I GM, with the creatures in each encounter already set up so I can know how they react to noises and events.
What is a little funny about air is that it is much better to use as strength attacks, since you get reach on the melee attack side of it. So it is good at great range, but it is also pretty good at melee, especially when combined with Fair wind, that will make it really annoying for enemies to get close enough to you to hit you. Your kiting options are very flexible and incredibly annoying to enemies.
I agree that a D4 attack does feel low at first, but I wouldn't want to lose any of the traits for a D6, and having a super long range option is ok, especially for the all day flying element.
Air + MAP-4 Air is more damage than Air + Water fusion blast because of elemental runes.
This isn't really true though. You get to add the striking runes. So at level 10 when you get this, an elemental rune is probably an extra D6 damage on the second attack, but the fusion blast is getting an extra 2d8.
It is better than power attack because it is not just one weapon die.
You can have martial equivalent accuracy, Wich they do. Just stick your secondary to 16 it isn't that bad.
Or caster equivalent DC.
I guess the community has to decide wich way to go
Air + MAP-4 Air is more damage than Air + Water fusion blast because of elemental runes.This isn't really true though. You get to add the striking runes. So at level 10 when you get this, an elemental rune is probably an extra D6 damage on the second attack, but the fusion blast is getting an extra 2d8.
It is better than power attack because it is not just one weapon die.
The comparision isn't 2d8 vs 1d6 (actually 2d6 because you have +2 weapons at this point).
It is MAP-0 (2d8) vs a MAP-4 (2d4 + 2 + 2d6).
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A niche of multitarget attack rolls? Really? I'm sometimes impressed by the lengths people will go to defend the current design of things. "Don't spread your attack rolls around unless you kill the first enemy" is like PF2 Introductory Class. And I think you're greatly overvaluing agile. A +1 on a second attack, that already has a low accuracy and basically no chance to crit outside of a nat 20, is not that valuable. Neither is a +2 on a third attack. It's not nothing, but it's incredibly minor. So minor in fact that attacking someone with 0/-4/-8 or 0/-5/-10 with a weapon that has one die size higher will net you basically the same damage. The best thing agile does is making attack riders and presse effects more likely to hit, and Kineticist is not particularly rich in either commodity.
Chain Blast is neat, but odds are you're not hitting more than 2 enemies with it, and incredibly rarely more than 3. Not bad, but this is very far from being a niche-defining ability. The reason AoEs can be good is reliably targeting such a high number of enemies at the same time that you'll get a good total value. This is not that. And for the Overflow effects... well they're basically cantrips with slightly better areas, worse DCs and that cost 3-4 actions instead of 2.
A niche of multitarget attack rolls? Really? I'm sometimes impressed by the lengths people will go to defend the current design of things. "Don't spread your attack rolls around unless you kill the first enemy" is like PF2 Introductory Class. And I think you're greatly overvaluing agile. A +1 on a second attack, that already has a low accuracy and basically no chance to crit outside of a nat 20, is not that valuable. Neither is a +2 on a third attack. It's not nothing, but it's incredibly minor. So minor in fact that attacking someone with 0/-4/-8 or 0/-5/-10 with a weapon that has one die size higher will net you basically the same damage. The best thing agile does is making attack riders and presse effects more likely to hit, and Kineticist is not particularly rich in either commodity.
Chain Blast is neat, but odds are you're not hitting more than 2 enemies with it, and incredibly rarely more than 3. Not bad, but this is very far from being a niche-defining ability. The reason AoEs can be good is reliably targeting such a high number of enemies at the same time that you'll get a good total value. This is not that. And for the Overflow effects... well they're basically cantrips with slightly better areas, worse DCs and that cost 3-4 actions instead of 2.
Again, I was not expecting the kineticist to be so multi-target focused and I don't know that I love the design. I will try playtesting some different characters to see how it really feels.
But people are critiquing the class like the developers tried to make a single target blaster and failed. I am just not sure what getting caught up in discussing how all of the options designed to allow targeting lots of enemies fail to make the class a good single target striker is going to accomplish, other than to get your feedback dismissed because you are asking for a different class than the one that was designed.