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I would suggest instead that you turn it the other way around. Don't go Oracle with a swashbuckler archetype. Go swashbuckler with an oracle archetype. The flames oracle is actually a really good archetype for basically anyone who's consistently dealing out the fire damage, if you grab its initial revelation spell... and it'll mean that trying to stab things in an elegant way is actually the correct answer for you, rather than being something that you repeatedly fail at because you're trying to follow your backstory. Once you do that, a *lot* of things work better for your build.
...and for the fire damage itself, there are a number of ways to get it. The obvious one is to get a rune on your weapon, but you might also consider the elven ancestry feat elemental wrath (fire). The splash damage means that the flame oracle revelation spell can make it worthwhile even without the spellcasting proficiency to back it up, especially against swarms, and elemental wrath makes it verbal-only, so it doesn't trigger opportunity attacks.
Wouldn't that hit your story beats reasonably well?
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I thought you're NEVER supposed to multiclass into Oracle because you're stuck with the worst aspects of your Curse with none of the improvements you'd later get if you were taking it as your base class? And because multiclassing into a spellcasting class in general was terrible unless it was from another spellcasting class?
It does hit the story beats quite nicely (especially because it can add an element of "This power is a burden to me and I refuse to rely on it unless there is no other choice," to th3 roleplay!). I just thought the conventional wisdom around multiclassing was you'll ALWAYS be crap if you're trying to multiclass two different "niches" together, rather than two classes in the SAME niche (like Bard/non-Occult bloodline Sorcerer, Wizard/non-Arcane patron Witch, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Fighter, Fighter/Champion or Rogue/Champion)
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I thought you NEVER multiclass into Oracle because you're stuck with the worst aspects of your Curse with none of the improvements you'd later get if you were taking it as your base class?
Who told you that rot? You get the minor, constant effects of the curse from the archetype, but that doesn't really do much. When you pick up the revelation spell, it'll take you to minor curse the first fight each day, and then (if you refocus and use it again) add flat-footed.
The minor flames curse means that creatures more than 30 away from you are concealed, but if you're melee, you don't actually care about that. Yes, having the moderate curse turn into "minor curse, plus you're flat-footed" sucks a bit, but it sucks a lot less than trying to build your character around something that you're inherently bad at... especially if you're in a campaign where you don't face all that many encounters per day and/or you pick and choose a bit on when you pull that revelation spell out. Your first hit of the spell every day is effectively free after all.
So... short answer is that it's not as good as I'd thought it was before I went digging in response to your question, but for what you want to build, a Swashbuckler/Oracle is still a lot better than an Oracle/Swashbuckler. The former is within the standard PF2 "I sometimes make feat choices for flavor reasons, and the results are a bit quirky" level of optimization, while the latter is really just setting yourself up for a lot of unhappy suffering
It does hit the story beats quite nicely (especially because it can add an element of "This power is a burden to me and I refuse to rely on it unless there is no other choice," to th3 roleplay!). I just thought the conventional wisdom around multiclassing was you'll ALWAYS be crap if you're trying to multiclass two different "niches" together, rather than two classes in the SAME niche (like Bard/non-Occult bloodline Sorcerer, Wizard/non-Arcane patron Witch, Druid/Cleric, Rogue/Fighter, Fighter/Champion or Rogue/Champion)
I'm not concerned with conventional wisdom. I'm concerned with the effectiveness of the build.
Oracle archetype gives you two cantrips. If you try to use them as attack cantrips, they'll be terrible, because you'll have no proficiency. don't do that. Grab utility cantrips instead.
Oracle archetype mystery spell doesn't care about anything other than what level you are, and whether or not the people around you are takign fire damage. It is strongly recommended that you invest in a ring of energy resistance (fire), and your allies may wish to do the same, but aside from that, the only thing that you actually care about is "I shouldn't have a build that's trying to shoot things mroe than 30 away" and "every time in a day I use this thing after the first, I get flat-footed until the fight's over". Neither stat nor proficiency matters at all.
Now... if you start trying to lean into the spellcasting side of things, and picking up spell slots, then your lack of spellcasting proficiency is going to make you sad. So don't do that. You don't need it for the fiction, and you don't need it for the build.
Personally, I like the Oracle archetype specifically for that flames mystery spell. Setting things on fire is great. Admittedly, I tend to prefer it with goblins, but....
You're right, it is very specific. I don't think there's another way I'll be able to do "Ever since I was a child I had horrible nightmares of fire and dragons...as I grew, the nightmares started manifesting in the waking world. My parents, a dwarf and am elf who fell in love, taught me how to control the fire through the forge and use it to create rather than destroy, how to fight with precision and finesse, to dance as flames do, learned the ways of both my parents' peoples and found comfort in them. It was then that I stumbled upon an ancient icon, and the visions flared up again, like having a nightmare even though I was awake! And with the flames came a name: Dahak. I now knew...it was from this god...this MONSTER, that my visions were coming, and I swore on Torag, on Yuelral, that whatever foul "gift" Dahak had granted me, I would not grant him the satisfaction of seeing me use it in his name. Years have passed. I'm now a man, but I still see fire...the visions have only gotten more specific, as if Dahak is taunting me with what he will destroy...and I have seen a town far away...The name was easy enough to learn: Breachill. I've made preparations to go there soon. I won't let whatever curse I've been given set that lonely town and the innocents within ablaze, even if it means I have to look Dahak himself in the eye, and then burn him with his own power!"
Dwarven heritage? Childhood forge? Fascination with fire? After reading all that I can't help but think some sort of hammer--perhaps one with a spike--would be more appropriate.
I don't see anything at all holding you to a sword in that writeup save the final sentence, which could just as easily read as any other weapon, as I've shown.
After reading that I can't help but think some sort of hammer--perhaps one with a spike--would be more appropriate.
I don't see anything at all holding you to a sword in that writeup save the final sentence, which could just as easily read as any other weapon, as I've shown.
"fight with precision and finesse" doesn't really fit "warhammer with a spike" all that well. I mean, technically you can, but that's not really what they're known for, you know?
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You're right, it is very specific. I don't think there's another way I'll be able to do "Ever since I was a child I had horrible nightmares of fire and dragons...as I grew, the nightmares started manifesting in the waking world. My parents, a dwarf and am elf who fell in love, taught me how to control the fire through the forge and use it to create rather than destroy, how to fight with precision and finesse, to dance as flames do, learned the ways of both my parents' peoples and found comfort in them. It was then that I stumbled upon an ancient icon, and the visions flared up again, like having a nightmare even though I was awake! And with the flames came a name: Dahak. I now knew...it was from this god...this MONSTER, that my visions were coming, and I swore on Torag, on Yuelral, that whatever foul "gift" Dahak had granted me, I would not grant him the satisfaction of seeing me use it in his name. Years have passed. I'm now a man, but I still see fire...the visions have only gotten more specific, as if Dahak is taunting me with what he will destroy...and I have seen a town far away...The name was easy enough to learn: Breachill. I've made preparations to go there soon. I won't let whatever curse I've been given set that lonely town and the innocents within ablaze, even if it means I have to look Dahak himself in the eye, and then burn him with his own power!"
Dwarven heritage? Childhood forge? Fascination with fire? After reading all that I can't help but think some sort of hammer--perhaps one with a spike--would be more appropriate.
I don't see anything at all holding you to a sword in that writeup save the final sentence, which could just as easily read as any other weapon, as I've shown.
The catch is there's elven heritage on the other side, so since the dwarven weapon is naturally covered by the clan dagger, I feel an elfy one would strike a good balance. The only reason I was looking into finesse swords that slash as well as pierce is because while rapiers ARE included in Elven Weapon Familiarity, they ONLY do piercing damage, so that would leave this character with a physical damage blind-spot. Every adventurer carries at least one blunt weapon to deal with skeletons, I don't wanna be stuck in a situation where I need a slashing weapon to be most effective and don't have one...Otherwise I'd just take the rapier and be happy with it. The elven curve blade, despite its swagger, is useless to a swashbuckler...
The catch is there's elven heritage on the other side, so since the dwarven weapon is naturally covered by the clan dagger, I feel an elfy one would strike a good balance. The only reason I was looking into finesse swords that slash as well as pierce is because while rapiers ARE included in Elven Weapon Familiarity, they ONLY do piercing damage, so that would leave this character with a physical damage blind-spot. Every adventurer carries at least one blunt weapon to deal with skeletons, I don't wanna be stuck in a situation where I need a slashing weapon to be most effective and don't have one...Otherwise I'd just take the rapier and be happy with it. The elven curve blade, despite its swagger, is useless to a swashbuckler...You're right, it is very specific. I don't think there's another way I'll be able to do "Ever since I was a child I had horrible nightmares of fire and dragons...as I grew, the nightmares started manifesting in the waking world. My parents, a dwarf and am elf who fell in love, taught me how to control the fire through the forge and use it to create rather than destroy, how to fight with precision and finesse, to dance as flames do, learned the ways of both my parents' peoples and found comfort in them. It was then that I stumbled upon an ancient icon, and the visions flared up again, like having a nightmare even though I was awake! And with the flames came a name: Dahak. I now knew...it was from this god...this MONSTER, that my visions were coming, and I swore on Torag, on Yuelral, that whatever foul "gift" Dahak had granted me, I would not grant him the satisfaction of seeing me use it in his name. Years have passed. I'm now a man, but I still see fire...the visions have only gotten more specific, as if Dahak is taunting me with what he will destroy...and I have seen a town far away...The name was easy enough to learn: Breachill. I've made preparations to go there soon. I won't let whatever curse I've been given set that lonely town and the innocents within ablaze, even if it means I have to look Dahak himself in the eye, and then burn him with his own power!"
Dwarven heritage? Childhood forge? Fascination with fire? After reading all that I can't help but think some sort of hammer--perhaps one with a spike--would be more appropriate.
I don't see anything at all holding you to a sword in that writeup save the final sentence, which could just as easily read as any other weapon, as I've shown.
Elven curve blade isn't useless on a swashbuckler, there isn't any handedness requirements for Finishers or Riposte, so I don't see any issues wielding one.
You can also do a STR/DEX hybrid build and do scimitar/clan dagger, which gets the ascetics you're looking for.Also, the asp coil from Grand Bazaar is a p/s + reach whip sword thingy like the Blade of the Creator from Fire Emblem: Three Houses, that could also fit the bill.
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Yeah, I'm unsure as to why the elven curve blade would be considered useless for swashbucklers either. There are feats that require you to wield a single one-handed weapon and have a hand free, but that's not the same as two-handed weapons being useless to the entire class.
Another option would be a shifting rune. Or carrying an additional weapon to fill the gap in your damage types.
Really, the reason a Swashbuckler wants a 1h weapon it's for Buckler Expertise/Dance or Dueling Parry/Dance. If you want to use a 2h weapon, you're just down the +2 AC like anybody else with a 2h weapon.
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Really, the reason a Swashbuckler wants a 1h weapon it's for Buckler Expertise/Dance or Dueling Parry/Dance. If you want to use a 2h weapon, you're just down the +2 AC like anybody else with a 2h weapon.
Right, I was under the impression that those were some of the best feats swashbucklers have access too, and if your build doesn't have them you're not going to be a good swashbuckler.
Ehh? Buckler Expertise/Dueling Parry is just another way to get Raise a Shield, which is nice, but not everyone is really going to be able to fit that in their routine anyways.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that Raise a Shield is mandatory before (the opposite, usually I see people way overvalue 2h weapons).
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They're pretty good, but absolutely not mandatory. Plus, if you're taking a casting archetype, that gives you access to the shield cantrip which will be just as good for most purposes. The level 10 upgrade is also very good, but it has to be, considering it's competing with "gain an extra reaction that lets you kill an enemy on their own turn."
One thing I'm seeing is it seems like you're making a lot of very absolute statements based on what other people have told you and that it's negatively impacting your ability to enjoy or even engage with the game. There will be people on here telling you that the entire swashbuckler class is trash and dead useless regardless of feat selection, which is clearly not true. 2e is not a game where the difference between "optimized" and "not optimized" determines whether you even get to participate in encounters.
I think that considering the level 10 stances to have that +2 for the rest of the fight is the big deal with them.Ehh? Buckler Expertise/Dueling Parry is just another way to get Raise a Shield, which is nice, but not everyone is really going to be able to fit that in their routine anyways.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that Raise a Shield is mandatory before (the opposite, usually I see people way overvalue 2h weapons).
Yep, with the Stances you get an excellent AC, which simultaneously increase the chances to trigger Riposte. So for the Swashbuckler it's really important to get them, that's why the 2 handed weapons, despite being technically usable by a Swashbuckler, are in general a bad choice after level 10.
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Recent thing I ran into: level two game, starting wealth rules say you get one first-level permanent item. Half the party ended up with Cloak of Feline Rest because there weren't many options outside heavy armor.
I think a few more flavorful first-level permanent magic items would be nice.
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One thing I'm seeing is it seems like you're making a lot of very absolute statements based on what other people have told you and that it's negatively impacting your ability to enjoy or even engage with the game. There will be people on here telling you that the entire swashbuckler class is trash and dead useless regardless of feat selection, which is clearly not true. 2e is not a game where the difference between "optimized" and "not optimized" determines whether you even get to participate in encounters.
It's not so much whether you get to participate in encounters as opposed to whether or not you're burdening your group and making encounters harder. I've only managed to get into one 2e game here on the boards, and only because it transitioned from a 1e game to the new edition. The encounters have felt BRUTAL since the transition, resulting my character DYING and needing to be reincarnated (though part of that's my own damn fault because I forgot I had potions I could have used), and now we're running from other encounters after unlucky rolls on saves and missed attacks result in us nearly getting overwhelmed again. And in that I'm playing a decently optimized character. If our group is struggling to survive against things while being okay, stat-wise, a character deliberately NONoptimized for the sake of characterization could mean the difference between survival and TPK! This game feels SCARY sometimes!
Senior Designer
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A 2h agile weapon would be super cool, even if it has to be rather weak damage and traitwise to be balanced.
I want you to remember this statement when the book comes out and remind people that you specifically asked for it and I gave it to you under those conditions.
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I'm hoping for a 1d6 one-handed reach weapon so split the difference between whips (weak damage, lots of traits) and the flickmace (i.e. the reason gnomes have adopted so many human paladins now).
I'm hoping for a 1d6 one-handed reach weapon so split the difference between whips (weak damage, lots of traits) and the flickmace (i.e. the reason gnomes have adopted so many human paladins now).
Yeah. I'm glad to have asp coil as an option, but the uncommon rarity does get in the way a bit.
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Non-Weaponized Pool Noodle
Source: QuidEst, post 6,395
Price 3 gp; Damage 1d0 B; Bulk L
Hands: 1
Category: Advanced
Group: Flail; Traits: Nonlethal, Rare, Reach, Twin
It's a long, hollow tube that doubles as flotation device. Who made the foam for this? Why are you trying to use it in a real fight? Maybe if you distract them with one, you can get a good smack at the face in with another, I guess.
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Senior Designer
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Non-Weaponized Pool Noodle
Source: QuidEst, post 6,395
Price 3 gp; Damage 1d0 B; Bulk L
Hands: 1
Category: Advanced
Group: Flail; Traits: Nonlethal, Rare, Reach, TwinIt's a long, hollow tube that doubles as flotation device. Who made the foam for this? Why are you trying to use it in a real fight? Maybe if you distract them with one, you can get a good smack at the face in with another, I guess.
Could have "buoyant" as a weapon trait!
Buoyant: Weapons with this trait are particularly useful as a flotation device. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Swim while wielding or holding a buoyant weapon, but each round you remain afloat the odds that you or one of your relatives are hit in the face with it increase by 5% (minimum 50%, maximum 100%).
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Non-Weaponized Pool Noodle
Source: QuidEst, post 6,395
Price 3 gp; Damage 1d0 B; Bulk L
Hands: 1
Category: Advanced
Group: Flail; Traits: Nonlethal, Rare, Reach, TwinIt's a long, hollow tube that doubles as flotation device. Who made the foam for this? Why are you trying to use it in a real fight? Maybe if you distract them with one, you can get a good smack at the face in with another, I guess.
Now I want to make a Thaumaturge that somehow manages to harm people with a pool noodle.
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Senior Designer
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I mean I wouldn't want to play a character with a pool noodle, but I think something like a 2h shortsword, maybe with one extra trait could have a small niche while being generally rather weak.A 2h agile weapon would be super cool, even if it has to be rather weak damage and traitwise to be balanced.I want you to remember this statement when the book comes out and remind people that you specifically asked for it and I gave it to you under those conditions.
Book's shipped, you probably oughta be more specific with your requests in the future, enjoy the pool noodle!
(It's actually probably almost exactly what you were picturing stat-wise, maybe even a little better.)
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It's not so much whether you get to participate in encounters as opposed to whether or not you're burdening your group and making encounters harder. I've only managed to get into one 2e game here on the boards, and only because it transitioned from a 1e game to the new edition. The encounters have felt BRUTAL since the transition, resulting my character DYING and needing to be reincarnated (though part of that's my own damn fault because I forgot I had potions I could have used), and now we're running from other encounters after unlucky rolls on saves and missed attacks result in us nearly getting overwhelmed again. And in that I'm playing a decently optimized character. If our group is struggling to survive against things while being okay, stat-wise, a character deliberately NONoptimized for the sake of characterization could mean the difference between survival and TPK! This game feels SCARY sometimes!
I don't want to take this more off topic than it already is, so I will send you a PM instead.
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Right, but the problem is the only SWORDS in that list are the shortsword, which is Martial, and the Aldori Dueling Sword, which in addition to being Advanced has very specific flavoring. Neither are very good options if you're doing something like an Oracle with a non-Battle mystery with a Swashbuckler dedication, since you don't get access to new weapon proficiencies through multiclassing. And you can only get shortsword proficiency from Ancestry familiarity feats by being a halfling. T_T...
it's a tad annoying that the only finesse weapons in 2e I can find that are both slashing AND piercing are shortswords and Aldori dueling swords,
...Simple Melee Common: dagger
Simple Melee Uncommon: shears
Martial Melee Common: maine-gauche, shortsword, starknife, and a couple of mind weapon options available through the Mind Smith archetype
Martial Melee Uncommon: bladed gauntlet, claw blade, dueling spear, shauth blade, wakizashi, and wish knife
Advanced Melee Uncommon: Aldori dueling sword, karambit, and wind and fire wheel
Martial Combination Uncommon: dagger pistol?
Unarmed Melee Uncommon: Razor Claws (Lizardfolk), Taloned Tengu Heritage (Tengu), and Form of the Fiend - Claw (Tiefling)
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My full list of finesse options can be found here: Finesse Options.
You didn't specify that you were looking for swords, but there are actually five swords among the options that I listed: shortsword, Aldori dueling sword, wakizashi, and the 1d4 or 1d6 mind weapon swords with the modular option.
And Adopted Ancestry (Halfling) would be a way to take Halfling Weapon Familiarity without being a Halfling.
I was building an alchemist for a small campaign a friend wants to run for their first session GMing and then I remembered Treasure Vault is supposed to have some cool new alchemical options and suddenly February seems really really far away.
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I was building an alchemist for a small campaign a friend wants to run for their first session GMing and then I remembered Treasure Vault is supposed to have some cool new alchemical options and suddenly February seems really really far away.
Too good of an opening to pass up. From the product page:
Did we post this already?
Table of Contents
Introduction: Into the Vault
Armor and Armament
Alchemy Unleashed
Momentary Magic
Trappings of Power
Secrets of Crafting
Gamemaster’s Trove
Treasure Tables
Glossary & Index