So, like many, I've been having a blast playing Elden Ring, particularly using the multiple versions of Carian Slicer, Piercer, Greatsword, etc.
Going back to my weekly campaign, I just realised that PF2 has no spells that let you conjure weapons. The closest thing we could get is Soulforged armaments, but those are tied to Wis and divine casting...
This is a common trope, with games like Skyrim and even Dnd with its shadow and fire blades coming to mind.
Here's to hoping that we see some of these spells in PF2 one day (:Maybe as a modification available to Spell Tricksters (something like 'you change the spell to resemble a weapon and attack with it') or as their own spells
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
*starts typing into phone*
The problem is that mechanically there has to be very little incentive to use the spell or it becomes too powerful, which has been something PF2 has tried very hard to make sure doesn't come to pass.
I think if you wanted to just make a custom cantrip level spell that that was like a d6 die weapon with no special abilities that would only increase it's damage dice 1 level behind when someone could purchase it you'd get little push back from people. If you start trying to go beyond that...well people will argue.
At best, you're going to have a spell that duplicates buying a weapon (with the benefit being you didn't spend the money). And even that, is probably too good to be honest (since you didn't spend the money).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Summoning a weapon is one of my favorite things in fantasy, and I’m bummed that the main angle for having fun with it is a 1/day ability attached to an Archetype most classes can’t afford the WIS for.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, the problem is that "how much money you have" is a separate advancement track to "experience points". So having a character who doesn't need to spend money on a weapon (which martials are going to want to spend upwards of 40,000gp on over their careers) either puts them well ahead on the money track, or is the sort of thing that will eventually be obsolete.
Something like the Soulforger, where you have a specific magical item you can manifest, that otherwise exists in an extradimensional space accessible only to you, but you still have to pay to upgrade it is probably the best we're going to get.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Summoning a weapon is one of my favorite things in fantasy, and I’m bummed that the main angle for having fun with it is a 1/day ability attached to an Archetype most classes can’t afford the WIS for.
Please read the Soulforger Dedication again:
Manifest Soulforged Armament (concentrate, conjuration, divine, extradimensional) Requirements If summoning a weapon or shield, you have the hands free to wield it; if summoning armor, you aren't wearing any armor; Effect You immediately wield or wear the soulforged armament bound to you. The soulforged armament remains manifested until you Dismiss this effect.
Once per day when you use this ability, you can manifest the armament's essence form. You gain the armament's essence power until it's Dismissed. After 1 minute, the essence form armament is automatically Dismissed.
You can manifest the basic soulforged armament (which is always magical; see Binding an Armament) an unlimited number of times per day. Only the essence form (with the added essence power) is limited to once per day.
Granted, you don't get the armament "for free" or "create it out of nothing." However, you don't have to worry about it being lost or stolen; just Dismiss it and re-manifest it.
Note that Rapid Manifestation allows you to throw (single action), Dismiss (single action), Rapid Manifest (free action), and throw (single action) in the same round, which is nearly as good as a returning rune.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The dependency on items is a huge bummer for me, would love things like conjure weapon or greater magic fang or otherwise. Ironically I had a similar problem with starfinder and it's part of the reason I jumped to 2e, but now there are so many wicked options that don't need weapons that I love it to death. Bonus points because evolutionist is my dream class that I didn't know I wanted.
The dependency on items is a huge bummer for me, would love things like conjure weapon or greater magic fang or otherwise. Ironically I had a similar problem with starfinder and it's part of the reason I jumped to 2e, but now there are so many wicked options that don't need weapons that I love it to death. Bonus points because evolutionist is my dream class that I didn't know I wanted.
Starting with Pact Worlds (junk armor and junksword), Starfinder has definitely made it easier to reduce the dependency on equipment.
PF2 isn't there yet, but using the Automatic Bonus Progression variant rules from the Gamemastery Guide can help.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, the problem is that "how much money you have" is a separate advancement track to "experience points". So having a character who doesn't need to spend money on a weapon (which martials are going to want to spend upwards of 40,000gp on over their careers) either puts them well ahead on the money track, or is the sort of thing that will eventually be obsolete.
Something like the Soulforger, where you have a specific magical item you can manifest, that otherwise exists in an extradimensional space accessible only to you, but you still have to pay to upgrade it is probably the best we're going to get.
Magus have a feat for that. And it is a free action to draw it, so it actually serves a purpose.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
NGL every time I play a soulslike I get really bummed about all the stuff Paizo will probably never let us do because of Pathfinder's really specific design principles.
Weapon summoning is a neat mechanic though that I think could be doable. Mage Armor already gives us a bit of a precedent for replacing gear with spell slots.
Alternatively (though obviously not ideal for someone who wants to be less gear dependent) something that riffs off the Summoner's design and has you summon weapons that borrow bonsues from handwraps could be cool.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Magus have a feat for that. And it is a free action to draw it, so it actually serves a purpose.Yeah, the problem is that "how much money you have" is a separate advancement track to "experience points". So having a character who doesn't need to spend money on a weapon (which martials are going to want to spend upwards of 40,000gp on over their careers) either puts them well ahead on the money track, or is the sort of thing that will eventually be obsolete.
Something like the Soulforger, where you have a specific magical item you can manifest, that otherwise exists in an extradimensional space accessible only to you, but you still have to pay to upgrade it is probably the best we're going to get.
It's a neat ability. But I do wish they had styled it like the PF1 Weapon Tattoo. I just loved the flavor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I always liked the ability of the 4e Swordmage, who could summon their weapon to their hand from up to a mile away.
Amusingly, Wizards can easily do this. They just need to select a weapon as their Bonded Item and take the Call Bonded Item class feat.
|
I feel like this might work better as a feat that conjures a weapon, than as a spell.
- Regular spells are limited per day. Doesn't work well for something that you'd have to do at the start of each fight. Could work for an above-normal weapon though, like how Magic Weapon is kinda brutal at level 1.
- Focus spells that you always have to cast at the start of each combat because otherwise your build doesn't work, kinda undermines the attempt to put some freedom into that system. I'd rather have a pool of points and be able to decide which one to use each time. If I already had to commit my focus in round 1 because I depend on that weapon, that would take all that away.
- Cantrips sooort of do this (gouging claw) but the power budget for what a cantrip can do is just too low.
On the other hand, feats are absolutely the place to go for all-day or every-fight abilities. In a way, most monk stances are already this.
It could be done if the spell would allow you to attack using your spell attack roll, use casting Stat for damage and deals force or other atypical types of damage. Maybe concentration would be required to ensure you don't end with a spell that makes a better fighter than the fighter for a minute a day.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I don't know for sure it's going to be along these lines, I will note that the Dark Archive playtest analysis did have this line:
In honor of our new iconic psychic, Thaleon, I’ll share his conscious mind, which is called the tangible dream. This path focuses on materializing and projecting the user’s thoughts into the physical world, allowing you to conjure walls, blades, and other constructs of force (or astral thread, or ectoplasm, as your character concept fits) around the battlefield!
Emphasis mine. Kinda implies at least one psychic subclass will have the ability to manifest etheric weapons. Now, it's probably going to be more along the lines of Unlimited Blade Works or Gate of Babylon than, say, Mindblade Magus, but still.
Summoning the weapon could be a Focus Spell, then it'd be available for every combat preceded by a lull and PCs wouldn't be able to buy a scroll above their level. It could scale much like Wild Shape does, and if central to a class or archetype there could feats which unlock further capabilities yet like Wild Shape forms also give passive bonuses when using one of the other weapon-boosting feats.
Not sure there's enough meat here for a full class though, so maybe as an archetype or even a Hybrid Study for Magus.
Summoning the weapon could be a Focus Spell, then it'd be available for every combat preceded by a lull and PCs wouldn't be able to buy a scroll above their level. It could scale much like Wild Shape does, and if central to a class or archetype there could feats which unlock further capabilities yet like Wild Shape forms also give passive bonuses when using one of the other weapon-boosting feats.
Not sure there's enough meat here for a full class though, so maybe as an archetype or even a Hybrid Study for Magus.
Magus does have the Mindblade precedent from PF1e. Would probably need careful balancing, and I doubt it would change spell lists like the PF1e Mindblade did, but that is a possibility.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Magus does have the Mindblade precedent from PF1e. Would probably need careful balancing, and I doubt it would change spell lists like the PF1e Mindblade did, but that is a possibility.
I'm pretty sure the Mindblade, if it makes it to PF2, is going to follow the same basic guidelines as the Soulforger. Specifically
- You can manifest a weapon whenever you want.- This weapon can't be meaningfully taken away from you.
- You have a limited ability to power it up or mutate it temporarily.
- You still have to pay money to get runes on the thing.
We're just not going to give characters a way to save like 40,000 gold pieces without efficiency loss by making build choices (or correspondingly we're not going to allow people to make build choices that could be replicated by anybody with a big pile of gold).
Magus does have the Mindblade precedent from PF1e. Would probably need careful balancing, and I doubt it would change spell lists like the PF1e Mindblade did, but that is a possibility.I'm pretty sure the Mindblade, if it makes it to PF2, is going to follow the same basic guidelines as the Soulforger. Specifically
- You can manifest a weapon whenever you want.
- This weapon can't be meaningfully taken away from you.
- You have a limited ability to power it up or mutate it temporarily.
- You still have to pay money to get runes on the thing.We're just not going to give characters a way to save like 40,000 gold pieces without efficiency loss by making build choices (or correspondingly we're not going to allow people to make build choices that could be replicated by anybody with a big pile of gold).
Something along the lines of the Runescarred Archetype's Living Rune feat but for weapons would be cool.
As you level up, you can spend gold to tattoo progressively more powerful weapon runes onto yourself, and those apply only to your manifested weapon. It's cool flavor, but you still have to spend the gold, and the progression rate could be limited so that the power level is kept in bounds.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly being able to tattoo runes on a characters arms as if they were handwraps would be a huge deal to me. Feels so much more like the character is infused with magic instead of just wearing a cool thing.
Honestly being able to tattoo runes on a characters arms as if they were handwraps would be a huge deal to me. Feels so much more like the character is infused with magic instead of just wearing a cool thing.
I do like the flavor of etching runes into the Witch's Eldritch Nails.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Twisting Tree Magus gets to put property runes on their staff by inscribing them in their spellbooks. I imagine something like that could also work here.
A GM arranging it so one person gets a special black blade weapon and also ends up with 40k less gp doled out over 20 levels works.
It's just that creating an exchange rate between "gold pieces" and "class features and feats" is problematic, since maybe you resent the fact that other people can just have what you have by spending money on it, or maybe the other people in the game resent that you have a lot more money to play with than they do, but the odds of these things being in balance are low.
For my Twilight Archer on Infinite, its main feature is a conjured arrow of light/shadow as a focus cantrip. I basically gave it the stats of a bow then it has a pair of bracers that basically copies Handwraps of Mighty Blows but only works with conjured weapons. And so you'd need to buy the levels of Bracers as you level up, just like with Handwraps. In the end, you get a bow that uses runes like a bow, scales like a bow, damages like a bow, and costs similar to a scaling bow, but because it's magical/nonphysical it has a few extra tricks (and a lot of flavor).
But this does create the situation where the character progression is pretty much dependant on purchasing Bracer upgrades, but in truth that's how it is already, upgrading weapon runes is basically a necessity for all martial classes. Which is why I think rune etching should have been separate crafting rules. It's just etching, so really a party member with Crafting proficiency should be able to do it for free if it's essential to progression and there's no material really involved, maybe a set of tools. From a game perspective, how does obfuscating the weapon upgrade system make it more fun if it's really a necessity, that just makes it a formality you have to go through.
Spiritual weapon ?
Yes, but with potency runes and maybe a status bonus. Kinda like an alternate to battle form.
While I don't know for sure it's going to be along these lines, I will note that the Dark Archive playtest analysis did have this line:
In honor of our new iconic psychic, Thaleon, I’ll share his conscious mind, which is called the tangible dream. This path focuses on materializing and projecting the user’s thoughts into the physical world, allowing you to conjure walls, blades, and other constructs of force (or astral thread, or ectoplasm, as your character concept fits) around the battlefield!Emphasis mine. Kinda implies at least one psychic subclass will have the ability to manifest etheric weapons. Now, it's probably going to be more along the lines of Unlimited Blade Works or Gate of Babylon than, say, Mindblade Magus, but still.
Mindblade Magus was pretty similar to typical use of UBW, in that it's "pull sword from thin air, use sword, make sword go away, grab different sword, loop." I have been advocating a UBW/spontaneous weapon creation ability for a very VERY long time. And will continue to do so until such an ability that feels thematically adequate comes out! GIVE ME THIS ONE TOY PAIZO, AND I WILL NEVER ASK FOR ANYTHING AGAIN!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*Quote Nesting*Mindblade Magus was pretty similar to typical use of UBW, in that it's "pull sword from thin air, use sword, make sword go away, grab different sword, loop." I have been advocating a UBW/spontaneous weapon creation ability for a very VERY long time. And will continue to do so until such an ability that feels thematically adequate comes out! GIVE ME THIS ONE TOY PAIZO, AND I WILL NEVER ASK FOR ANYTHING AGAIN!
NGL if it does get something along those lines, I'm hoping it can also at least be used to represent non-Melee weapon summoning. Something I've been hoping for since even the PF1e days was the ability to do something along the lines of Mami's (Madoka Magica) fighting style and from how I'm reading it this might be able to get that feel. Even among the countless options in PF1e first-party content, there was never a way to summon guns, and especially not summon multiple that fire themselves <.<
Spiritual weapon ?Yes, but with potency runes and maybe a status bonus. Kinda like an alternate to battle form.That would go past the spellcaster proficiency.
Being able to rely on either your spellcaster stats and spellcaster DC/Attack ( as well as potency runes ) would make the spellcaster a combatant ( and even better than them by lvl 19 ) , and I feel I can say it's not going to happen given how this 2e works.
I know, but I don't see another way of justifying a squishy wizard going into melee with a conjured weapon Darksouls or Elden Ring style.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But in the end, elder ring is a videogame ( which leads to an outrageous powercreep regardless the starting "class" ) and this 2e a boardgamey rpg. If conjuring weapons were that good ( using spellattack, benefitting from spellcaster stat and runes ), and also not requiring the spellcaster to renounce to their spells ( like battleforms do ), the balance would be drastically off.
This is the biggest part of it.
Elden Ring is a single player (primarily, not sure if there is PVP and even if there is it isn't required or even the normal focus) game. That has a completely different dynamic than a multiplayer game, even one where you're all on the same team.
If you can spend one spell slot per day on having a weapon that is as good as what martial characters spend like 35% of their money on...it's a huge balance problem.
Elden Ring doesn't need to be balanced because its focus is on one individual player by themselves. Balance doesn't matter because the game can just make enemies tougher (if they want) to counter your power creep. Or they're designed with your power creep in mind.
That's much harder to balance in a multiplayer game.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's much harder to balance in a multiplayer game.
I mean. Balance doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's more conscious design decisions baked into PF2 fundamentally. There's no inherent reason why you couldn't have weapon summoning martial wizards that are perfectly balanced with their less arcane counterparts, except that PF2 has made some very conscious design choices to limit the capabilities of both martials and spellcasters in order to force them into fairly narrow lanes.
Ultimately, the game is what it is, but trying to shrug it off with "It's a multiplayer game" is sidestepping a lot of the real issues, which is more that Paizo made this game in such a way as to shut down ideas like this on purpose.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's much harder to balance in a multiplayer game.I mean. Balance doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's more conscious design decisions baked into PF2 fundamentally. There's no inherent reason why you couldn't have weapon summoning martial wizards that are perfectly balanced with their less arcane counterparts, except that PF2 has made some very conscious design choices to limit the capabilities of both martials and spellcasters in order to force them into fairly narrow lanes.
Ultimately, the game is what it is, but trying to shrug it off with "It's a multiplayer game" is sidestepping a lot of the real issues, which is more that Paizo made this game in such a way as to shut down ideas like this on purpose.
I mean, I guess I can see where you coming from. But within the context of the basic rules structure of PF2 it is a balance issue.
If you want to completely rewrite the rules of the game and make huge overhauls, such that it isn't PF2 and you can do something like this, then sure. But at that point it's not PF2.
Perhaps I am exaggerating a bit. Because if you were to implement automatic bonus progression, implement a weapon summoning cantrip available to anyone capable of casting magic, and made it such that the bonus from ABP could be applied to it then casters are only saving on the cost of the weapon and nothing is gained.
Of course, it also doesn't really reflect the intention of the OP either because it's a much more subdued version of summoning a magic weapon.
But I stand by my statement that within the basic ruleset of PF2, the reason we can't implement what the OP wants is because of balance, which is necessary based on the confines of the rule system.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think one thing worth pointing out is that just because something in a different game is fun, does not mean that thing is appropriate for Pathfinder.
Like in terms of video games, I adore stealth games, which generally allow you to instantly incapacitate an on-level opponent when you have snuck up on them sufficiently well. That's just not a thing that we're going to see in Pathfinder though.