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Considering...
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I don't think I like it. The idea of the non-stacking bonuses is that you can get the same bonuses from diverse options. If you change the class features to have a separate type of bonus, then it becomes another place to maximize. A place where someone who is expert in rules-reading can end up with a noticeably superior character than someone who is less skilled in it.
So yeah. Battle Mystery bonus doesn't stack with Inspire Courage or Heroism. That means that you don't have to have a Bard in your party in order to have that amount of bonus. Which is probably good since an Oracle may be taking the role of the 'party buff'/'light combat'/'party face' that the Bard would take - so having both may be redundant.
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This seems to be mostly a problem with pickup games, where you don't know who everybody else is bringing to the table. If you can plan around "okay, what is everybody else playing" this is less of an issue.
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I feel like this is the exact same argument as "Inspire Courage makes Heroism obsolete." In our group we had a Marshal and a Bard. Marshall's aura and Inspire Courage did not stack. But that just meant that the bard didn't feel bad dropping IC for a round or two if he needed to. Redundancy can sometimes be a good thing.
P2 is designed to stay within certain parameters. Avoiding the "I have +1 to hit from 17 different sources each with a different bonus type so now I can hit a monster 10 CR above me with anything but a natural 1" problem was an explicit intent behind the P2 design.
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I kind of agree with the OP. It feels awkward to have a character's relative effectiveness scale or sputter based on the availability of buffs. It makes the character asynergistic with their party members and creates weird disparities where the class is almost able to compete with true martials if buffs aren't widespread but then falters and falls behind again if they are.
Trying to tie this to "PF1 infinite buff stacking" is a little bit slippery slope fallacy here, nobody's talking about that, we're just talking about a class' internal mechanics.
It's not like this is new either, literally every martial in the game has an "untyped" bonus tied to their combat mechanics: Both the Fighter and Flurry range receive bonuses to hit that stack with everything. Barbarians, Rogues, Precision Rangers, Investigators, Cascading Magi, and Inventors receive bonuses to damage that stacks with everything.
For the people talking about the dangers of buff stacking or 'maximizing bonuses' ... would the game be better if the Fighter's bonus proficiency was a status bonus? If a Flurry Ranger's reduced MAP didn't stack with Agile? If sneak attack was a circumstance bonus?
I kind of agree with the OP. It feels awkward to have a character's relative effectiveness scale or sputter based on the availability of buffs. It makes the character asynergistic with their party members and creates weird disparities where the class is almost able to compete with true martials if buffs aren't widespread but then falters and falls behind again if they are.
Huh? The class features aren't being lost. It is not like the character is losing out on something that they normally get just because Inspire Courage doesn't do as much for them.
It's not like this is new either, literally every martial in the game has an "untyped" bonus tied to their combat mechanics: Both the Fighter and Flurry range receive bonuses to hit that stack with everything. Barbarians, Rogues, Precision Rangers, Investigators, Cascading Magi, and Inventors receive bonuses to damage that stacks with everything.
Well, then it sounds like you already have what you want then. An untyped bonus that is available to those specific classes. But if the other classes are designed without those, why would adding those be better?
It sounds like you are wanting a Battle Oracle with a Bard backup to have the same combat abilities as a Fighter but with full spellcasting and focus spells too.
It sounds like you are wanting a Battle Oracle with a Bard backup to have the same combat abilities as a Fighter but with full spellcasting and focus spells too.By that logic a battle oracle without a bard has the same combat abilities as a fighter without one. If so, I havent seen the cries of battle oracle being too strong.
Classes are balanced around the baseline, if one classes baseline stacks, and the other doesn't, it is annoying.
Uh... The logic should be that a Battle Oracle with a Bard would be as strong in combat as a Fighter without a Bard. That was at least the intent of my statement.
Which, I am not sure that it is even accurate. I haven't done the full math analysis on the proposed changes to see.
But in any case, I don't think it is a slippery slope fallacy to point out that you are trying to add another bonus type (a class bonus, to give it a named type).
A lot of classes have something in the class features that gives a typed bonus.
Fighter for example has Battlefield Surveyor which gives a circumstance bonus to Perception when used for initiative.
And of course they all get untyped bonuses too, such as Oracle getting legendary proficiency with Divine spells.
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Not to say I agree or disagree, but maybe the opposite should be considered - try to get rid of as many untyped bonuses as we can. Things like rage maybe should be a status bonus.
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Well, then it sounds like you already have what you want then.
Yes, those very same bonuses that you claim would ruin Pathfinder already exist all over the system. Go figure.
It sounds like you are wanting a Battle Oracle with a Bard backup to have the same combat abilities as a Fighter but with full spellcasting and focus spells too.
Nah, the Oracle falls well behind the fighter regardless. It would just be nice if there was less volatility in their relative power because of the way their class features interact with general purpose buffs.
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I think it's worth noting that most Martial Classes effectively have "untyped" bonuses, whether through increased proficiency, reduced MAP, damage bonuses while raging, sneak attacking, spellstriking, etc.
By contrast, Spellcasters with combat bonuses are either typed as Status and Circumstance.
I think this is a good thing, and working as intended.
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A battle oracle in their curse hits about as often as a barbarian, but instead of rage damage and resistances gets full spellcasting and fast healing. Seems about right as is.
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A battle oracle in their curse hits about as often as a barbarian, but instead of rage damage and resistances gets full spellcasting and fast healing. Seems about right as is.
Is the curse bonus to hit enough to match barb? It’s only a +1 and at that curse level, they’re stupefied so the full spellcasting isn’t even fullly active.
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A battle oracle in their curse hits about as often as a barbarian, but instead of rage damage and resistances gets full spellcasting and fast healing. Seems about right as is.Haven't played them enough to say for sure. But lets say they are about right.
Add a bard. Or heroism. Now the barbarian is a lot better than the battle oracle. See the issue? One can get easily buffed, the other can't.
waves as the goalposts fly past
There are a lot of party compositions that can work without either.
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A battle oracle in their curse hits about as often as a barbarian, but instead of rage damage and resistances gets full spellcasting and fast healing. Seems about right as is.Haven't played them enough to say for sure. But lets say they are about right.
Add a bard. Or heroism. Now the barbarian is a lot better than the battle oracle. See the issue? One can get easily buffed, the other can't.
I'm not especially opposed to the idea of making class bonuses untyped, but I do think you're missing the broader picture of what's available here.
The bard can do a whole lot more than inspire courage, and a common complaint of the class is that inspire courage feels almost obligatory basically cutting you down to 2 actions. If the party isn't reliant on the bard for their status bonus attack/damage they suddenly get more freedom to do what they want with that 3rd action, to try out other composition cantrips or just get 3 actions instead of 2 every round. They benefit from oracle not leaning on their buffs.
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Notice how it's the casting classes that most often have typed buffs that prevent stacking? That's intentional to make sure they don't accidentally get too close to being on par with martials at martial things and especially so they can't really do it under their own power.
No idea about why class feature speed bonuses are status though.
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Probably to prevent people from achieving warp 9.Notice how it's the casting classes that most often have typed buffs that prevent stacking? That's intentional to make sure they don't accidentally get too close to being on par with martials at martial things and especially so they can't really do it under their own power.
No idea about why class feature speed bonuses are status though.
Longstrider is the outlier there. If that didn’t exist, it wouldn’t seem so off. As is, a level 2 wand with an 8 hour duration is a pretty easy choice for a class with the Arcane spell list. Swashbuckler, at least, might not want to invest in Trick Magic Item or a dedication. And eventually they get more than a 10-foot bonus.
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I’m no Battle Oracle optimizer, but in fairness to it, once you go major curse, you’re not a full caster anymore. I wouldn’t dare risk casting a spell to just lose it to stupefied 2; I’m going full martial mode.
Then again, you’re indeed a full caster before that. You’re supposed to cast all your spells before using your major curse as a last resort.
Casters are expected to mitigate the gap between them and martials using spells if they want to fight. I see things like Battle Oracle as giving a shortcut, a non-stacking replacement that frees up casting that spell. It shouldn't stack with the spell, because then they would have both, and a selfish caster would be more accurate than a martial.
As for bard song, it's already the best at-will ability in the game. It doesn't need to be further boosted by stacking with everything. It's a spell, so anything that shouldn't stack with a spell shouldn't stack with it.
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I defenatly think the speed bonuses should be untyped, if only because a 10 foot speed status increese is so cheap and easy to obtain that having it as a class feature isnt worth a lot. I mean what other class features can be replaced with a 60 gold item?
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I defenatly think the speed bonuses should be untyped, if only because a 10 foot speed status increese is so cheap and easy to obtain that having it as a class feature isnt worth a lot. I mean what other class features can be replaced with a 60 gold item?
That also costs a feat and skill proficiency for most characters.
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I defenatly think the speed bonuses should be untyped, if only because a 10 foot speed status increese is so cheap and easy to obtain that having it as a class feature isnt worth a lot. I mean what other class features can be replaced with a 60 gold item?That also costs a feat and skill proficiency for most characters.
Trained proficiency and a single skill feat are negligible in the extreme. Skill feats are already largely low value so you have no reason not to pick up this one.
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I think the issue is actually that the wand of longstrider is unusual. There aren't that many spells that last long and that you'd want to buy a wand to cast every day.
it also buffs something that does not innately scale, so that 10 foot bonus has roughly the same value at level 3 (when you can get the wand) as it does at level 20, being a 40% speed buff unlike say, mage armor, another potential morning cast all day wand, which becomes obsolete
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If I'm not making a mistake, all bonuses have a type but some damage bonuses. Making class bonuses untyped would be a pretty big change in the system internal rules. In my opinion, if you start going in that direction, you will quickly raise issues everywhere (why shields don't stack with cover, etc...).
Damage rules are quite messy, there are lot of grey areas, mostly due to these additional/extra damage. So, I must admit I'm not eager to see the same kind of issues outside damage rolls!
Wild Shape also uses a status bonus when the druid uses their own attack bonus.
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Notice how it's the casting classes that most often have typed buffs that prevent stacking? That's intentional to make sure they don't accidentally get too close to being on par with martials at martial things and especially so they can't really do it under their own power.
No idea about why class feature speed bonuses are status though.
Yeah, I can see that from a certain perspective. My problem though is that it creates an inherent volatility in that relative balance based on buff availability.
Because if there isn't widespread buff availability, the battle oracle's ability does help put them in between other spellcasters and martials, though still noticeably behind the latter.
And if there is, then they don't actually get much of an edge over even wizards, really.
And that dichotomy in particular is why I find it kind of problematic. If such a character is intended to be a step above a sorcerer but a step below a true martial, they should feel that way all the time. If such an ability is meant to be a throwaway tool that doesn't do much except provide some convenience, it should feel that way all the time.
Right now it can be either, basically depending on whether or not you have a Bard in the party (or something similar).
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Right now it can be either, basically depending on whether or not you have a Bard in the party (or something similar).
But there's nothing similar, only the Bard easily gives group wide bonuses to attack rolls. The Marshal can give bonuses to attack rolls (or damage), but the area is ridiculously small and you need a skill check to just activate it (I have a Marshall player in one of my campaigns and it's hard for him to affect anyone in the party).
So, maybe the issue is with the Bard. The blanket +1 to attack and damage overwrites a lot of small buffs other classes have.
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I think Battle Oracle is the best example of why the characters are limited by these types of bonuses. Otherwise a Battle Oracle would just cast heroism on themselves and be as accurate or more accurate than a martial.
Most characters have tons of options of what they do in combat. For example if your team has a Battle Oracle and a Bard the solution is quite easy...
Have the Bard cast a different focus cantrip... Inspire Defense/Dirge of Doom are great.
Of course if the Bard is stubborn then just don't use the Major Curse of Battle Oracle unless you want +5 damage/fast healing. Yes not super fun but nothing else to do really.
There are tons and tons of examples of this in the game. Example Witch Stoke the Heart doesn't stack with Eidolons Boost Eidolon etc...
The point about move speed is just a different discussion.
Sadly I think wand of Longstrider was just something missed and a mistake... It seems like players are actively going out of their way to have this buff on every character which PF2 was actively trying to avoid with the 1-10 minute durations. Are there other buffs like this other than mage armor? I can't think of any of the top of my head and mage armor is bad for the most part.
Long lasting buff stacking was my least favorite part of PF1 by far and PF2 does a decent job of getting rid of them but Longstrider slipped through the cracks.
Now that I know about this gimmick it is going to be hard to pass up on this wand. Since it is so cheap for such a good bonus. Oddly I don't even remember much discussion about Longstrider last year when I was heavily into PF2. Now I hear it mentioned a lot.
Overall I think it is much better that these things don't stack in general. Otherwise if every class feature stacked with everything we get into absurd modifiers. For example I would say Inspire Courage is a class feature and I am almost certain no one wants that to be an untyped bonus.
I think Battle Oracle is the best example of why the characters are limited by these types of bonuses. Otherwise a Battle Oracle would just cast heroism on themselves and be as accurate or more accurate than a martial.
Most characters have tons of options of what they do in combat. For example if your team has a Battle Oracle and a Bard the solution is quite easy...
Have the Bard cast a different focus cantrip... Inspire Defense/Dirge of Doom are great.
Of course if the Bard is stubborn then just don't use the Major Curse of Battle Oracle unless you want +5 damage/fast healing. Yes not super fun but nothing else to do really.
There are tons and tons of examples of this in the game. Example Witch Stoke the Heart doesn't stack with Eidolons Boost Eidolon etc...
The point about move speed is just a different discussion.
Sadly I think wand of Longstrider was just something missed and a mistake... It seems like players are actively going out of their way to have this buff on every character which PF2 was actively trying to avoid with the 1-10 minute durations. Are there other buffs like this other than mage armor? I can't think of any of the top of my head and mage armor is bad for the most part.
Long lasting buff stacking was my least favorite part of PF1 by far and PF2 does a decent job of getting rid of them but Longstrider slipped through the cracks.
Now that I know about this gimmick it is going to be hard to pass up on this wand. Since it is so cheap for such a good bonus. Oddly I don't even remember much discussion about Longstrider last year when I was heavily into PF2. Now I hear it mentioned a lot.
Overall I think it is much better that these things don't stack in general. Otherwise if every class feature stacked with everything we get into absurd modifiers. For example I would say Inspire Courage is a class feature and I am almost certain no one wants that to be an untyped bonus.
5th Level See Invisibility is another that lasts for 8 hours.
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The relative price and level that you can get that, though, means wands of it aren't going to be quite as common.
EDIT: I don't mind that some 8-hour duration spells exist. I think it's a more interesting game for it. In this one instance, however, it's an outlier compared to other abilities. One option with Longstrider would be to reduce it to a 5-foot bonus, which would mean that most of the class features would still be an improvement. Some of them already are at higher levels anyway.
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Battle Oracle player here who just played a session with a bard. At low levels the Inspire only fails to stack for +1 damage which is no big deal. At higher levels the bard should have opportunity to replace it with a different composition. Odds are a party with two primary casters will be better served by Dirge of Doom anyway.
I'm more ticked about circumstance bonuses being so common out of combat. Lots of feats and features give them. Aid gives them. And a lot of contextual AP activities give them as well. At least two of those three should usually stack, IMO.
The easiest solution is just making those AP contextual bonuses stack or reduce the DC.