Bonuses Built Into A Class Should Be Untyped


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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It also wasn't just a normal bastard sword swing. It was a True Strike Weapon Surge attack. I used Haste to move into place for it.

(3d12+1d6+6)*2 averages 58 damage. I rolled somewhat above average but not enormously so. The difference is True Strike makes me significantly more likely to crit and removes concealment. Would it have sucked if I missed? Absolutely. But True Strike, +1 status, and flanking help tons there.

A wizard could hit that hard it they spent 1 feat on weapon proficiency, 2 on Weapon Surge. But they'd also want one feat on armor, maybe two, and another to shore up the hit points. They've spent 6 feats compared to the Oracle spending one Divine Access. (Well, both also could have Bespell Weapon, but 7 to 2 doesn't look much better.) And that's without going into this requiring multiple archetypes and therefore "buy out" feats as well. And you're still lower damage without the curse bonus.


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Actually, a wizard doesn't need anything but the weapon proficiency.

(12+12+4+1d6)*2 can hit 68 if the rolls are lucky.
And more important, there's no need to waste a focus spell ( as well as 2 class feats ) on weapon surge.

What changes is just the odds, because the oracle ( by lvl 11 since you consider +1 status hit ) has a higher average damage, and because so will deal that damage more often if compared to the poor wizard.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HumbleGamer wrote:

Actually, a wizard doesn't need anything but the weapon proficiency.

(12+12+4+1d6)*2 can hit 68 if the rolls are lucky.
And more important, there's no need to waste a focus spell ( as well as 2 class feats ) on weapon surge.

What changes is just the odds, because the oracle ( by lvl 11 since you consider +1 status hit ) has a higher average damage, and because so will deal that damage more often if compared to the poor wizard.

Ok, but if you don't weapon surge you're "only" at 68 max compared to 82, and the Surge also grants a +1 status bonus before level 11.

And if you don't spend feats on durability then you're a strength build without strength appropriate armor, less hit points than the battle oracle, and no fast healing. That's just a bad idea. That is not a build that wants to be in melee regardless of maximum damage.


Yeah, the maximum damage would be totally different ( oracle wins hands down ).

My point was that even a wizard would have been able to achieve a 66 critical hit by lvl 8.

In terms of tankyness

- AC is the same ( fullplate -1 vs wizard with a general armor training )
- HP would be 20 more for the oracle by lvl 20. Not a huge deal, but still very good to have.
- Fast healing ( traded for stupified 2 ) is nice to have.

Not a big difference ( given the average length of a fight, a wizard might achieve the same oracle regen by taking the witch dedication + life boost ). What bothers me the most is the expert weapon proficiency which kicks in by lvl 13 rather than 11 ( by lvl 11 with the status bonus would be +3 compared to the wizard ).

But from what I have seen, the majority of critical hits ( unless against creeps -1/0/+1 ) occurs on a natural 20 on pure combatants, so its 1 out of 20 ( in terms of critical hits. normal hits are definitely towards the oracle during those 2 levels. no doubt about it ).

Anyway, I'd probably feel more at ease with the bastion dedication with either wizard and battle oracle.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HumbleGamer wrote:

Yeah, the maximum damage would be totally different ( oracle wins hands down ).

My point was that even a wizard would have been able to achieve a 66 critical hit by lvl 8.

In terms of tankyness

- AC is the same ( fullplate -1 vs wizard with a general armor training )
- HP would be 20 more for the oracle by lvl 20. Not a huge deal, but still very good to have.
- Fast healing ( traded for stupified 2 ) is nice to have.

Anyway, I'd probably feel more at ease with the bastion dedication with either wizard and battle oracle.

The Oracle would actually be 40 more by level 20. 8 hp a level vs 6. Plus the fast healing is basically extra hit points. So the advantage in practice is more like 40-80 more hit points for a three round fight, depending on whether you go to major curse or not.

Bastion is OK but you're giving up some damage to do it and you already have the should cantrip. There's a lot of stuff vying for your actions so the only way to reliabily raise the shield is Reactive, which means no block.


Max damage is meaningless if you die in 1-2 hits and have to be within melee range to do it. Having to spend half your feats doesn't make it better, it makes it passable.

But it's nice to know true strike does it job as intended.

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