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I dunno, just going by the CRB text, my understanding was that the Hands entry of a weapon indicates the amount of hands required. The requirement/type of weapon doesn't change just because you're using more hands than minimally required. At least, there's nothing in that section in the CRB that says so.
It seems the same to me as the way a melee weapon isn't a melee weapon when you throw it. You're wielding the weapon in two hands, so it's a two-handed weapon.
That Thunderous Strike uses the terms interchangeably (the requirement vs the body text) further cements to me that that's how it's supposed to function.
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I wonder if there's other useful things that previously seemed impossible that this opens up?
Although I have to say, the jezail is still a bit wonky. I mean, when you're not wielding it, you're by definition not wielding it in two hands. So then it defaults to being a 1H weapon and thus a valid target for pistolero. And pistolero doesn't say draw it in 1H.
From the Core Rulebook, pg 279, on the matter of Hands under the Weapon Statistics explination: The last two lines suggest to me that the moment you begin wielding a 1-handed weapon with 2-hands, it then counts as a 2-handed weapon for the sake of abilities and Feats, regardless of the actual handedness requirement of the weapon or its Traits.
So, by extension, because you are then wielding it specifically as a 2-handed weapon and not as a 1-handed weapon, it no longer qualifies for those abilities or Feats that explicitly rely on wielding a weapon with 1-hand, until you change your grip. That's my take away from it anyways.
So the Jezail is specifically a 1-handed weapon, despite it being a long rifle. So for any ability, like the Pistolero's Ten Paces, it functions because it is a "one-handed firearm", unless you were specifically attempting to draw it with 2-hands. But you couldn't use something like an Arquebus, because it is specifically a 2-handed Firearm, and it requires two-hands to effectively wield.
Likewise, if you instead are a Vanguard, you can choose to wield a Jezail or any other 1-handed firearm/crossbow with 2-hands, at which point they count as meeting the requirements for the Vanguard's Clear a Path. But, if you wanted to, say, use Pistol Twirl after Clear a Path, you'll have to spend an action first to change your grip on the Jezail, which you were wielding 2-handed.
That's my take away from it. I'm not sure if that helps at all, as I honestly didn't read everything from the conversation. But, I hope that helps. ^^
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That's not how it works. Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?"
It works with a Jezail even in 2handed mode because it is technically a 1handed firearm.
With due respect, but are you sure? The CRB doesn't go as far as saying that any weapon wielded in 2 hands is a 2H weapon, or that it ceases to be a 1H weapon. All it says is that things that require you to be wielding a weapon in two hands work when you're wielding a weapon in two hands even if it's not listed as a 2H weapon.
If any 1H weapon wielded in 2 hands no longer counts as a 1H weapon (and, presumably, starts counting as a 2H weapon instead), that would also allow you to use Knockdown with a 1H weapon by wielding it in 2 hands, right? And you'd be able to use Thunderous Strike with a 1H weapon if you were using it in 2 hands at the time?
In addition, some abilities require you to wield a weapon in two hands. You meet this requirement while holding the weapon in two hands, even if it doesn’t require two hands or have the two-hand trait.Hands - Rules - CRB 279
Yeah but look at what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that if you wield a 1H weapon in 2 hands, that it stops having a minimum hands of 1. All that it says is that abilities that require you to be holding a weapon in 2 hands can be satisfied by holding a 1H weapon in 2 hands.
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Yeah but look at what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that if you...That's not how it works. Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?"
It works with a Jezail even in 2handed mode because it is technically a 1handed firearm.
With due respect, but are you sure? The CRB doesn't go as far as saying that any weapon wielded in 2 hands is a 2H weapon, or that it ceases to be a 1H weapon. All it says is that things that require you to be wielding a weapon in two hands work when you're wielding a weapon in two hands even if it's not listed as a 2H weapon.
If any 1H weapon wielded in 2 hands no longer counts as a 1H weapon (and, presumably, starts counting as a 2H weapon instead), that would also allow you to use Knockdown with a 1H weapon by wielding it in 2 hands, right? And you'd be able to use Thunderous Strike with a 1H weapon if you were using it in 2 hands at the time?
In addition, some abilities require you to wield a weapon in two hands. You meet this requirement while holding the weapon in two hands, even if it doesn’t require two hands or have the two-hand trait.Hands - Rules - CRB 279
Could you elaborate what the issue you see is? For the purposes of feats and abilities that call for a two-handed weapon, the entry from p. 279 establishes that a 1H weapon wielded in 2H is a two-handed weapon for those purposes.
The minimum required amount of hands doesn't matter in this case. That's why Michael mentioned determining the 2 parts of it. "Minimum required" and "how many hands am I actually using at this moment". You can't use a weapon properly without the minimum amount of hands for the weapon, and you can't use the feats/abilities you have without the number of hands you'd need for that ability. Which works in favor of 1H weapons being wielded with 2H.
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Well let's look at the instances being mentioned.
Blazons of Shared Power: Original statement was that you could use it with the Jezail while using the Jezail in two hands. Now yes, you can apply it to the Jezail because Jezail is at base a 1-handed weapon. No, I don't think the Blazon falls off because you grabbed the weapon with two hands. The thing is though... it doesn't matter. The Blazons explicitly say you must be wielding both weapons for the effect to apply, and there is (as of yet) no way to get an effective 3 hands for weapon wielding.
Knockdown: Yes, as per both Michael's statement and the quoted rules, you can use Knockdown to perform a Trip even if you are wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands. It just... doesn't really matter? Nothing about the feat actually requires you wield a two-handed weapon (or wield a weapon with two hands), so you could just as easily be wielding a one-handed weapon in one hand and just do the included Trip normally. You can't, say, Sword-n-Board it, but the feat never said you could anyways.
Thunderous Strike: This is the one where it gets interesting. The mechanics of the Focus Spell do call out making a "melee Strike with your two-handed weapon." So what does a "two-handed weapon" mean in this context? Well fortunately if we look at the Requirements for casting this spell, it gives us an idea. "You're wielding a melee weapon in two hands." Nothing about minimum hands, just 'wielding a weapon in two hands.' In this case, if you want to take your dagger, wrap both hands around the (fairly small) hilt, and slam someone with it to shockwave those behind them... I'd say go for it. Bit of a weird choice for an Inexorable Iron Magus, but if you're in a jailbreak and all you've got to fight with is the knife you lifted from the kitchen, why not let them firmly grasp it and still use their class features? They still don't have a free hand or anything.
That's not to say that minimum hands doesn't mean anything, because there is one feat (related to Knockdown in fact) where it does: Mauler Dedication. Which explicitly calls out "melee weapons that require two hands to wield". Your Mauler Rogue isn't gaining proficiency in Sword Canes just because you're wielding it with two hands, as its minimum hands is still 1. But it is notable that it does explicitly call out the minimum hands, and isn't just "wielding... in two hands."
The Blazons explicitly say you must be wielding both weapons for the effect to apply, and there is (as of yet) no way to get an effective 3 hands for weapon wielding.
Juggle: "You can wield weapons you are Juggling (but not shields or other items) as long as they can be wielded in one hand." This technically allows for a Jezail as it only requires that it CAN be wielded in one hand, not that you do wield it in 2 hands. Mithral can reduce the Bulk to Light and get it into the range on Juggle. So you could Juggle and wield a Jezail and another weapon at the same time with the Blazon.
Juggle: the is there anything it can't fix? ;)
Yeah but look at what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that if you wield a 1H weapon in 2 hands, that it stops having a minimum hands of 1. All that it says is that abilities that require you to be holding a weapon in 2 hands can be satisfied by holding a 1H weapon in 2 hands.
Wouldn't this be an instance of "Do what the rules say, don't do what the rules DON'T say?"
What type of damage is the splash damage from the Scatter trait? Also does it deal damage if you miss?
Splash is only defined really in the splash trait so it can be hard to tell how it is supposed to work outside of it.
What type of damage is the splash damage from the Scatter trait? Also does it deal damage if you miss?
Splash is only defined really in the splash trait so it can be hard to tell how it is supposed to work outside of it.
Since it refers to splash and doesn't mention differences (apart from not being a thrown weapon), I would assume it works just like splash weapons, dealing the splash damage even on a miss, but not on a critical fail.
As for damage type, while the rules don't state it, it seems logical and coherent with every splash weapon so far that the splash damage is the same type as the main damage, so a blunderbuss would deal piercing splash damage while a flingflenser would deal slashing. After all, scatter just means some of the same ammunition is spread out.
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What type of damage is the splash damage from the Scatter trait? Also does it deal damage if you miss?
Splash is only defined really in the splash trait so it can be hard to tell how it is supposed to work outside of it.
On a hit, the primary target of attacks with a scatter weapon take the listed damage, and the target and all other creatures within the listed radius around it take 1 point of splash damage per weapon damage die.
Unlike most splash damage, this specifically requires a hit to happen.
What type of damage is the splash damage from the Scatter trait? Also does it deal damage if you miss?
Splash is only defined really in the splash trait so it can be hard to tell how it is supposed to work outside of it.
On a hit, the primary target of attacks with a scatter weapon take the listed damage, and the target and all other creatures within the listed radius around it take 1 point of splash damage per weapon damage die.Unlike most splash damage, this specifically requires a hit to happen.
My conundrum is this:
Let's take an arbitrary bomb, alchemist's fire, it deals 1d8 damage, 1 persistent damage and 1 splash damage. This is dealt with a Strike, where on Success you deal the damage and on Critical Success you double the damage. So here we already have a "on hit, deal splash damage" in a sense. This is overridden by the Splash trait which says
If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.
However splash damage is not mentioned anywhere in the rules except for this trait so if we are not supposed to use this trait for Scatter then what does splash damage even do? Does it double on a crit? Is it combined with the damage before weaknesses or resistances?
What type of damage is the splash damage from the Scatter trait? Also does it deal damage if you miss?
Splash is only defined really in the splash trait so it can be hard to tell how it is supposed to work outside of it.
On a hit, the primary target of attacks with a scatter weapon take the listed damage, and the target and all other creatures within the listed radius around it take 1 point of splash damage per weapon damage die.Unlike most splash damage, this specifically requires a hit to happen.My conundrum is this:
Let's take an arbitrary bomb, alchemist's fire, it deals 1d8 damage, 1 persistent damage and 1 splash damage. This is dealt with a Strike, where on Success you deal the damage and on Critical Success you double the damage. So here we already have a "on hit, deal splash damage" in a sense. This is overridden by the Splash trait which says
If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.However splash damage is not mentioned anywhere in the rules except for this trait so if we are not supposed to use this trait for Scatter then what does splash damage even do? Does it double on a crit? Is it combined with the damage before weaknesses or resistances?
The splash trait as a whole needs to be looked at again. The spell acid splash is in a similarly nebulous boat
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What type of damage is the splash damage from the Scatter trait? Also does it deal damage if you miss?
Splash is only defined really in the splash trait so it can be hard to tell how it is supposed to work outside of it.
On a hit, the primary target of attacks with a scatter weapon take the listed damage, and the target and all other creatures within the listed radius around it take 1 point of splash damage per weapon damage die.Unlike most splash damage, this specifically requires a hit to happen.My conundrum is this:
Let's take an arbitrary bomb, alchemist's fire, it deals 1d8 damage, 1 persistent damage and 1 splash damage. This is dealt with a Strike, where on Success you deal the damage and on Critical Success you double the damage. So here we already have a "on hit, deal splash damage" in a sense. This is overridden by the Splash trait which says
If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.However splash damage is not mentioned anywhere in the rules except for this trait so if we are not supposed to use this trait for Scatter then what does splash damage even do? Does it double on a crit? Is it combined with the damage before weaknesses or resistances?The splash trait as a whole needs to be looked at again. The spell acid splash is in a similarly nebulous boat
It would be great to get the term 'splash damage' defined outside of its usage in the Splash Trait.
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This would be a very specific interpretation of the rules, but since the Scatter description on Archives LINKS to the Splash trait, I would say that every reference of Splash Damage applies.
So...
1. On a Hit, the target and secondary targets take 1 point splash damage per weapon die.
2. Since this is splash damage, "On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage."
3. "Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances."
4. "You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit."
Since we're being very strict here...
A. Since these weapons have the Scatter trait and not the Splash trait, I'd say that these are NOT "splash weapons" (instead they'd be "scatter weapons").
As such you do not apply "If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage."
B. Since Scatter and Splash don't say anything about other damage types (Fire, Sonic, what have you), I'd say the splash damage is whatever the weapon does; concussive or untyped.
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Applying scatter damage on a miss would definitely make the most sense with how shotguns work. Otherwise, where did all the projectiles go? Especially with swarm creatures, how would you miss? I'm unsure what the RAI is though cause that could go either way I think.
If I were to try and argue between scatter and splash, I'd probably say splash is a burst because the systems assumes you're lobbing the thrown item for "maximum effect." That would mean to me, however, that scatter should have a cone shape since you don't lob the pellets.
Really though, it looks like scatter is a 1.5 Build trying to reference a 1.0 Splash Build.
Gnome Amalgam Musket has Reload 2 while the Hammer Gun is pretty much an identical weapon (shove instead of trip) with Reload 1. Gunsword also has similar power with Reload 1.
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Gnome Amalgam Musket has Reload 2 while the Hammer Gun is pretty much an identical weapon (shove instead of trip) with Reload 1. Gunsword also has similar power with Reload 1.
Gnomish blacksmiths got cocky after the flickmace and decided that neither man nor god could tell them too much was too much. The GAM was the result of their hubris.
(It's probably the Versatile, along with Trip being a bit more powerful than Shove. But mostly it's the hubris.)
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The bulk of the slide pistol is weirdly high. It is 2 bulk, which is more than a musket. Meanwhile, the Liar's Gun is the same thing, but slightly smaller and is light bulk. The latter also seems weirdly low.
So, with Fake Out you need a loaded gun to use the reaction. How does that work with capacity weapons like the slide pistol? Do you need to have switched to an active/loaded barrel to use Fake Out or can you just always use it assuming your slide pistol has at least one loaded barrel?
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I think there is the need to put the firearms category in the Greivous rune bunch, it has been quite a bit of time since the release of the book
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Munitions Crafter, the feat that is explicitly intended to allow you to make bullets when you can't find any, doesn't give you the formula for actual bullets. All formulas you gain are 1st level, while the formula for bullets is level 0.
In addition to that, the black powder entry has an activation (one action) component. You can tell that is for when it is not used as ammo, but that part not being explicitly called out has already caused confusion.
Lastly, all CRB rules on "special" ammunition only mention magical ammunition. This means that technically we don't have rules for alchemical ammunition beyond the general consumable rules. As a personal request, when you get around to fixing that, please don't apply the "you don't get property runes for that shot" rule to alchemical ammo as well. That would make most of it functionally useless.
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Covered Reload allows you to Hide and then reload. As per the rules in the Hide action, this would immediately make you not hidden anymore, except if the GM says otherwise.
(I never even noticed that, other people found it. I'm just putting it in the central thread for visibility.)
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Alchemical Shots says "and the firearm misfires". Misfire is only for firearms in general, and it is called out here again. You can also use Alchemical Shot with a crossbow, allowing you to fully ignore that penalty. That hardly seems fair for firearms.
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Munitions Crafter, the feat that is explicitly intended to allow you to make bullets when you can't find any, doesn't give you the formula for actual bullets. All formulas you gain are 1st level, while the formula for bullets is level 0.
In addition to that, the black powder entry has an activation (one action) component. You can tell that is for when it is not used as ammo, but that part not being explicitly called out has already caused confusion.
Lastly, all CRB rules on "special" ammunition only mention magical ammunition. This means that technically we don't have rules for alchemical ammunition beyond the general consumable rules. As a personal request, when you get around to fixing that, please don't apply the "you don't get property runes for that shot" rule to alchemical ammo as well. That would make most of it functionally useless.
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Covered Reload allows you to Hide and then reload. As per the rules in the Hide action, this would immediately make you not hidden anymore, except if the GM says otherwise.
(I never even noticed that, other people found it. I'm just putting it in the central thread for visibility.)
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Alchemical Shots says "and the firearm misfires". Misfire is only for firearms in general, and it is called out here again. You can also use Alchemical Shot with a crossbow, allowing you to fully ignore that penalty. That hardly seems fair for firearms.
I am guessing Alchemical Shot was just not meant to be used with crossbows and the requirement was the error. The flavor implies you're mixing the bomb juice with your ammo's powder or whatever.
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I am guessing Alchemical Shot was just not meant to be used with crossbows and the requirement was the error. The flavor implies you're mixing the bomb juice with your ammo's powder or whatever.
That certainly looks like it. The playtest version didn't allow crossbows and I'm guessing someone wanted to give crossbows some deserved love, but missed that part. The mistake is certainly understandable, it took me years and looking over the pdf several dozen times before realizing this is a problem. I always just applied misfire to the crossbow and didn't think twice about it...
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I propose an errata to the Inventor's armor innovation. The subterfuge suit should be +2 AC/+3 Max Dex instead of a +1 AC/+4 Max Dex because the Inventor who chooses that as their innovation can't cap AC until level 5.
The inventor's initial weapon modification "segmented frame" allows you to collapse the item down to light Bulk. It should probably say that most weapons cannot be used to attack in that form (or all, depending on how simple you want to make it).
How does Alchemical Shot interact with crossbows?
The requirement says "You have an alchemical bomb worn or in one hand, and are wielding a firearm or crossbow in the other."
However, two issues with that. First, the feat specifically states "Strike with your firearm" which you can't do with a crossbow.
That, and the failure is a misfire. Can crossbows even misfire?
Yeah, the feat is a bit borked in general. And no, misfire is exclusive to firearms.
Yeah, the feat is a bit borked in general. And no, misfire is exclusive to firearms.How does Alchemical Shot interact with crossbows?
The requirement says "You have an alchemical bomb worn or in one hand, and are wielding a firearm or crossbow in the other."
However, two issues with that. First, the feat specifically states "Strike with your firearm" which you can't do with a crossbow.
That, and the failure is a misfire. Can crossbows even misfire?
You mean that my crossbow will not wonk back and hit me in the face while the arrows stands still in mid air?
Fatal Aim's RAW can easily be read in a way that doesn't allow you to reload while benefiting from the trait.
"[...] so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading."
"Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand."
If read literally, reloading such a weapon and still getting the fatal afterwards takes 3 actions. 1 to take your hand off, 1 to reload and 1 to put your hand on again.
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Disagree. You can't switch "between the two grips" as part of reloading, but if you're simply reloading you aren't switching between the two grips.
The second part is also incorrect, it doesn't take an action to take your hand off the weapon, it takes an action to adopt its 'complicated' one-handed grip. The fatal aim trait says as much in the part you left out in an ellipses.
Disagree. You can't switch "between the two grips" as part of reloading, but if you're simply reloading you aren't switching between the two grips.
The second part is also incorrect, it doesn't take an action to take your hand off the weapon, it takes an action to adopt its 'complicated' one-handed grip. The fatal aim trait says as much in the part you left out in an ellipses.
As far as I can see, there are exactly two grips - one-handed and two-handed. The "complicated" grip is just the one-handed grip for fatal aim weapons, which has additional stipulations. It is not a third way to hold a weapon.
And the fact that we can even have this disagreement makes it clear that this needs better wording.