With the two new classes being announced, what are people hoping to see in them?
For the Thaumaterge, in almost expecting it to be skilled and martial focused, with some focus spells. Perhaps with a trinket focus thrown in like the alchemist with alchemical items, maybe getting multiple uses out of them. Giving them cantrips (and only cantrips, perhaps with feats to frant them the occasional spell) would be cool too.
As for psychics... i have no idea. I figured that was the purpose of the Occult Sorcerer. So instead, I say... make them prepared Occult casters. Cleric/druid style, so no spellbook, just access to the Occult list (though my real preference would be Arcanist style casting, but oh well). This is literally the last class I thought would ever hit PF2, so I'm not sure what they would do with it.
One thing confirmed--Thaumaturges are martial characters with no spellcasting at all, including it seems no way to get focus spells within the class it self. Nevertheless, their abilities seem explicitly oriented around knowing a lot about and using magic in ways that are not tied to spells. One ability known so far involves using a special Recall Knowledge action to discover or create a weakness in a target.
As for Psychics, I never expected the Occult Sorcerer would completely fill that niche. While I didn't know that Psychic itself would personally be making a come back, I have been waiting and expecting to see their unique brand of magic (no V/S components, only pure mental effort) to come back in some form. That said, I do hope there is a lot more to the Psychic besides Occult Sorcerer + replacing spell components, but that's a question for their list of feats, I'm sure.
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One suggestion I've seen for the Psychic that I think would be cool would to have the phrenic amplification abilities it had from 1e reframed in 2e as special metamagic focus spells, and have those be one of the major focuses the class has. I personally think that would be cool.
For example, perhaps one particular "Amplification Spell" could allow the Psychic to temporarily affect undead creatures with charm spells.
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Everyone already can effect undead with charm spells.
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The Psychic has been confirmed to be spontaneous.
If they were to make the Psychic a prepared spellcaster, I'd assume they'd make them a flex caster that prepares spells by meditating on the Akashic Record. However, they're going with spontaneous, which is probably for the best.
I actually wonder if the Psychic just gets the Occult Spell List or maybe aven a new one. Admittedly that is a lot of work and I could imagine that, even if they get a new one, they are just playtested with the Occult spellist.
But I am quite happy since this is likely to (indirectly) bring the mesmerist closer to a comeback
Im glad it is spontanous. I love the occult spell list but sorcerers occult bloodlines are all a bit lackluster in one way or another. And bard is too bardy.
Really happy that psychic comes, though i have no previous knowledge ofwhat the class used to be. But i really love Telekinesis and Telepathy and assume that will factor in a lot.
Im hoping for some cool focus spells and some unique mechanics. personally would love for something that lets you hover around, similarly to Cosmos oracle curse. I just love that visual. Maybe something about swinging weapons telepathically, the iconic has a sword hovering next to them i think? They also hover themselves which makes me excited already.
For the thaumaturge im really curious how it will work. From what was said i kinda imagine a more martially inclined alchemist, maybe it even comes close to how the inventor is. They put emphasis on it being magic without casting spells or focus spells so i imagine some magic flavoured combat feats similarly to inventors tech flavoured combat feats. Maybe something similar to 5e Warlocks eldritch blast.
We got a preview/clarification from Mark in another thread.
A thaumaturge is based on the idea that it's not just that you might know things. You are connected to things and you can manipulate those connections and create them. Part of it is like convincing the universe that this is a thing, akin to the idea of magic maybe plowing the field for future casting from SoM treatises on the nature of magic. Is this broken chain from a freed slave a good connection to damage this tyrannical king? Well he doesn't have any weaknesses normally, but you're pushing the universe to create a new bespoke weakness just for you.
You can use Cha for a special in battle Recall Knowledge to suss out existing weaknesses or make a new one. Even if you fail, you can spend another Interact action to just pull out tons of different possibilities and try them until something works. So a success is not necessary to do your thing.
The replacement of V/S alone is a major reason why I love Psychics (and actually would gladly house-rule said rules into Sorcerer to simulate a "plausibly born with spellcasting" individual).
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I actually wonder if the Psychic just gets the Occult Spell List or maybe aven a new one. Admittedly that is a lot of work and I could imagine that, even if they get a new one, they are just playtested with the Occult spellist.
But I am quite happy since this is likely to (indirectly) bring the mesmerist closer to a comeback
It's just the Occult spell list, but depending on the subclass you can pluck things from other lists akin to a Cleric or a Sorcerer.
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I still find it weird a class whose name means practitioner of magic won't have any magic.It actually means "worker of miracles/wonders".
Beat me to it. That aside, I imagine a person who is capable of drawing on subtle and latent magical/psychic connections in the world without actually needing to cast a spell would very accurately be described as a worker of wonders, even if those 'wonders' don't come in the form of traditionally packaged spells.
Besides, if Thaumaturge is not befitting a class which clearly holds extensive knowledge about all forms of magic (despite personal lack of spellcasting), it would seem there are a number of other spell classes whose literal etymology require further interrogation. Does no one find it weird that the Wiz-ard is not a Wis-based casting class? :P
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I think the psychic could have a unique place in the game by being a stealthy occult caster, something currently difficult to do.
It's just the Occult spell list, but depending on the subclass you can pluck things from other lists akin to a Cleric or a Sorcerer.I actually wonder if the Psychic just gets the Occult Spell List or maybe aven a new one. Admittedly that is a lot of work and I could imagine that, even if they get a new one, they are just playtested with the Occult spellist.
But I am quite happy since this is likely to (indirectly) bring the mesmerist closer to a comeback
Where did you hear that? I haven't heard it, and I would love it to be true. I would also like for some new spells.
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Where did you hear that? I haven't heard it, and I would love it to be true. I would also like for some new spells.It's just the Occult spell list, but depending on the subclass you can pluck things from other lists akin to a Cleric or a Sorcerer.I actually wonder if the Psychic just gets the Occult Spell List or maybe aven a new one. Admittedly that is a lot of work and I could imagine that, even if they get a new one, they are just playtested with the Occult spellist.
But I am quite happy since this is likely to (indirectly) bring the mesmerist closer to a comeback
From Reddit summary of the panel (nothing official):
"Psychic is SPONTANEOUS, OCCULT, NO SPECIAL LIST, they have some abilities that come from other spell list, like telekinetic and force made constructs."
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Ehh. I'm ready for psychic to be directly inferior to both occult sorc and bard and thaumaturge to be another skill-based martial with an inflexible action economy and/or punished for not having str/dex as the main stat. Maybe they'll get lucky and have something worth stealing with an archetype.
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Where did you hear that? I haven't heard it, and I would love it to be true. I would also like for some new spells.It's just the Occult spell list, but depending on the subclass you can pluck things from other lists akin to a Cleric or a Sorcerer.I actually wonder if the Psychic just gets the Occult Spell List or maybe aven a new one. Admittedly that is a lot of work and I could imagine that, even if they get a new one, they are just playtested with the Occult spellist.
But I am quite happy since this is likely to (indirectly) bring the mesmerist closer to a comeback
From Reddit summary of the panel (nothing official):
"Psychic is SPONTANEOUS, OCCULT, NO SPECIAL LIST, they have some abilities that come from other spell list, like telekinetic and force made constructs."
From that same write up:
"Psychic Magic is a kind of magic, it exists within the context of the current magic system, they don't use incantations, they use specialized thought and emotion, so they cast in their own way" (thanks again TMS)
So, basically, the Psychic is going to be an Spontaneous Caster that uses the Occult Tradition spell list, whose Magic is considered "Psychic Magic", in so far as they will use "thought and emotion" to caster their spells; likely as opposed to Verbal and Somatic components. This may depend on their Key Ability score, with Intelligence being tied to Logic (Thought?) and Charisma being Emotion.
So, Psychic Magic seems something more akin to say Wizardry or Halcyon Magic; a particular discipline of magic utilized by practitioners across Golarion. It isn't its own special list, like the Elemental list, but does seemingly alter how the Psychics magic works compared to other Spellcasters. Does make me curious if they'll be the only practitioners of this kind of magic, or if we will eventually see "Psychics" for the other three Traditions later.
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I wonder whether the Thaumaturge will have the same Harry Dresden vibes as the old occultist. I am pretty sure thaumaturgy is specifically called out in those books when he is drawing those circles
And the whole point is that his faith in magic and his will in believing in is real is what forces it to be real (or makes it more effective). And then he also tends to need implements to focus it
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I still find it weird a class whose name means practitioner of magic won't have any magic.
They have magic -- they just don't have spells. Big difference.
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I wonder whether the Thaumaturge will have the same Harry Dresden vibes as the old occultist. I am pretty sure thaumaturgy is specifically called out in those books when he is drawing those circles
And the whole point is that his faith in magic and his will in believing in is real is what forces it to be real (or makes it more effective). And then he also tends to need implements to focus it
This seems like an interesting take on the idea. Makes me think Thaumaturgist will primarily be found in areas where magic isn't as readily practiced. Probably not the case, since they haven't said they're Uncommon.
Also kind of makes me think of some kind of magical charlatan who goes around pretending to be a mage, taking money from the unsuspecting populous that doesn't know any better.
I wonder whether the Thaumaturge will have the same Harry Dresden vibes as the old occultist. I am pretty sure thaumaturgy is specifically called out in those books when he is drawing those circles
And the whole point is that his faith in magic and his will in believing in is real is what forces it to be real (or makes it more effective). And then he also tends to need implements to focus it
This seems like an interesting take on the idea. Makes me think Thaumaturgist will primarily be found in areas where magic isn't as readily practiced. Probably not the case, since they haven't said they're Uncommon.
Also kind of makes me think of some kind of magical charlatan who goes around pretending to be a mage, taking money from the unsuspecting populous that doesn't know any better.
Which is a great initial backstory as well. And a good excuse for your character to be picked or "hired" for a particular adventure
And then when under pressure some of the stuff turns out to be effective
I'm hoping they can do ranged stuff.
The main use of the 1E occultist was to use spell buffs and then the transmutation and abjuration implements to improve attack and defense and then wade into melee
I actually re-wrote a serial killer NPC from an AP who was a copy cat using a previous killer's murder weapon as an occultist and he was truly horrifying
But I'd like them to be able to pick up something and let out a blast of fire or something from it (again a bit like Dresden). You could do this in 1E with Evocation implements but it was a very sub optimal use
Also such an idea could have implications on another popular class that lots of people want but that I won't name to avoid the usual derailment
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It is only derailing because you keep insisting on saying "this class is unnecessary" when you've been told for going on 3 years that "need" doesn't enter into it; we WANT a kineticist for various reasons.
That said, you raise a good point as far as my personal interest in kineticists goes. I've long said it's not the elemental theme I care about, but the mechanical ability to "cast" without spell slots. Depending on how this shakes out, I could be pretty satisfied.
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Yeah, it sounds like when they say you'll have some abilities from other spell lists, that they meant you'll have some specific abilities on top of your normal spellcasting that give you some stuff you'd expect to have that are missing from the occult list. Unclear if those would be focus powers, class feats that give you special access to spells, or something else.
I'm not too worried, since we'll just see this all on monday and have plenty of chances to give feedback, they've been knocking it out of the park on their post-playtest iteration lately. Magus went from "oh no I might not like spellswords in this game" to "everything I could have ever wanted" between the playtest and release.
I'm eager to see the pact feats Mark mentioned for the Thaumaturge, being able to utilize a bargain where an entity does you a solid, but there's a cost to it. It was mentioned as probably an uncommon feat since it requires some roleplaying and GM participation to operate.
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One bit mentioned in the description of psychic is they have a focus on cantrips. Not sure if that means focus cantrips, new cantrips, or some sort of abilities or feats that alter them. Could be cool, we'll see monday!
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I'm eager to see the pact feats Mark mentioned for the Thaumaturge, being able to utilize a bargain where an entity does you a solid, but there's a cost to it. It was mentioned as probably an uncommon feat since it requires some roleplaying and GM participation to operate.
"Dormammu! I've come to bargin."
It is only derailing because you keep insisting on saying "this class is unnecessary" when you've been told for going on 3 years that "need" doesn't enter into it; we WANT a kineticist for various reasons.
That said, you raise a good point as far as my personal interest in kineticists goes. I've long said it's not the elemental theme I care about, but the mechanical ability to "cast" without spell slots. Depending on how this shakes out, I could be pretty satisfied.
Huh? The game isn't even 3 years old. So that statement would be hyperbolic to say the least
I really don't know what you are banging on about either.
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TBH, any thread where you mention Kineticist is likely to turn into the latest Kineticist thread and how best to convert it.
There really should have been a sticky thread on it by now. Or at least just one thread (I thought there was at some point).
And then surely the sheer volume of posts in it would be guaranteed to convince the developers to bring it in sooner rather than later
Do people think the implements are going to be like they always used to be? Tied to schools? I haven't seen any of the previews so I don't know if there is any indication at all
Binding entities for favours adds more of the dresden style vibe. But I think that was in before wasn't it? There was definitely something about magic circles
Dresden files can't be the only example of this concept in (relatively popular) fiction. Are there any others?
But I definitely recall either James or Jason clearly indicating it was a key inspiration for the Occultist in 1E. And seems to still be
One bit mentioned in the description of psychic is they have a focus on cantrips. Not sure if that means focus cantrips, new cantrips, or some sort of abilities or feats that alter them. Could be cool, we'll see monday!
Modifying cantrips would be relatively unique. Presumably in a different way to the bog standard metamagic feats. Perhaps different modifiers depending on subclass? Kind of like sorcerer blood magic - but for cantrips?
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From the panel: Implements are tied to deeper mystical symbolism of those objects and give you abilities based on that. So lanterns are about revealing, weapons aren't just about directly attacking but also about how weapons indicate an aggressive interjection into a situation, amulets indicate protection, and so on! Some of these will have some grounding with certain schools because, well, the schools have symbolism too, but it's not a one-for-one.
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I think they quoted John "Hellblazer" Constantine as an inspiration for the Class as well. May be remembering incorrectly. But it does fit either way. Bar his actual magical capabilities, he does often utilize esoteric objects in his line of work as an Occult Detective.
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The Belmonts from castle Ania may have e some thaumaturges in their ranks.
Constantine
I don't really watch the show but the Winchesters from Supernatural might count.
Winchesters aren't all that magical, they're more like Rangers.
Sort of reminds me of how the not-magic works in Control, but that might be too mystical.
Witchesters are definitely more Ranger-esque, with less wilderness. They could have measures of the Thaumaturge, but they strike me as utilizing objects that they actually know as an effect, rather than believing it strongly enough that it does. I.E. using silver against a Werecreature.
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Witchesters are definitely more Ranger-esque, with less wilderness. They could have measures of the Thaumaturge, but they strike me as utilizing objects that they actually know as an effect, rather than believing it strongly enough that it does. I.E. using silver against a Werecreature.
I’d like to see a class archetype that remove the wilderness aspect of Ranger. Can’t recall off hand how much stuff would need to change. Anything Nature for society and some warden spells wouldn’t be applicable. But probably not much else
Witchesters are definitely more Ranger-esque, with less wilderness. They could have measures of the Thaumaturge, but they strike me as utilizing objects that they actually know as an effect, rather than believing it strongly enough that it does. I.E. using silver against a Werecreature.
I come back to how Dresden can repel vampires with a pentacle rather than a cross because magic is what he believes in. If he uses a cross it wouldn’t work. But for other characters a cross would work
Arguably more of a “holy symbol” thing but still a similar idea
From the panel: Implements are tied to deeper mystical symbolism of those objects and give you abilities based on that. So lanterns are about revealing, weapons aren't just about directly attacking but also about how weapons indicate an aggressive interjection into a situation, amulets indicate protection, and so on! Some of these will have some grounding with certain schools because, well, the schools have symbolism too, but it's not a one-for-one.
This all sounds really cool . But also seems like a long long list. Will be interesting to see what has made it into the playtest and how the class is actually intended to work
I now just think of how I played a braggart type character who told all sorts of (made up) stories about where his gear was from (dark leaf stuff from the Elves of kyonin etc). But this kind of character would be kind of the reverse where they actually would have all the items and have collected them for specific reasons
It also sounds like an awesome role playing opportunity. Have some related to backstory and try to get creative with what you pick up and tie them to your adventures so far
Sounds awesome. Hopefully it isn’t at MAD as it seems from initial suggestions
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Two hopes and dreams for the thaumaturge which I think could be neat:
The ability to customise your own implement would be great. Instead of a generic lantern of revealing, you could invest class feats to awaken the ancestral powers of an orichalcum lantern recovered from the city of your ancestors, used in countless royal processions. Or an ancestral sword, or handcrafted armour, or...
I'm definitely hoping for customizable implements. One of few the minor gripes I had about the 1e Occultist was that their implements seemed a bit restrictive. It was minor and also fairly mechanically irrelevant. I would just like them to emphasize in the rules that the particular implement is up to the player to choose so long as it is relevant to its function/school.
Witchesters are definitely more Ranger-esque, with less wilderness. They could have measures of the Thaumaturge, but they strike me as utilizing objects that they actually know as an effect, rather than believing it strongly enough that it does. I.E. using silver against a Werecreature.I’d like to see a class archetype that remove the wilderness aspect of Ranger. Can’t recall off hand how much stuff would need to change. Anything Nature for society and some warden spells wouldn’t be applicable. But probably not much else
They could reintroduce the Hunter and/or Slayer (perhaps even combine the two) to hit this in a strictly non-magical way. Maybe sort of treat them as an item class, with a focus on items that help in monster hunting.
Personally, I was never a fan of how the Hunter was handled in 1e as far as its story was concerned. I always felt it would have been better to make it a Ranger/Fighter cross instead of a Ranger/Druid. Just me though.
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I also think it would potentially be interesting to have a feat chain where you could cast minor spells from your implements, by convincing the universe that they are enchanted. Alternatively, I think gaining a few staff charges by tricking it into thinking you're a caster could also be cool. I don't know if that would fit the flavour, though.
I think it should :-D
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Do people think the implements are going to be like they always used to be? Tied to schools? I haven't seen any of the previews so I don't know if there is any indication at all
Binding entities for favours adds more of the dresden style vibe. But I think that was in before wasn't it? There was definitely something about magic circles
Dresden files can't be the only example of this concept in (relatively popular) fiction. Are there any others?
But I definitely recall either James or Jason clearly indicating it was a key inspiration for the Occultist in 1E. And seems to still be
Reminds me of 1st Edition Stormbringer long ago where almost all magic items were actually bound demons.
It looks like the iconic psychic is changing.
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Ehh. I'm ready for psychic to be directly inferior to both occult sorc and bard and thaumaturge to be another skill-based martial with an inflexible action economy and/or punished for not having str/dex as the main stat. Maybe they'll get lucky and have something worth stealing with an archetype.
Go full cynicism and prepare yourself for the psychic to be inferior to the occult witch.