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Posting this here from the main thread for visibility.
Obviously, this situation is a lot, with many moving pieces. However, one thing has become clear; employees are being mistreated. Writers, artists, developers who make the stories we love, and use the platform of Paizo to reach more people than they ever could alone. But that's coming at the expense of abuse from their employers, and it has to stop.
This situation has evolved into is a call for accountability and for better working conditions for Paizo Employees. Those interested in helping more can find the hashtag #PaizoAccountability on Twitter, where several former Paizo staffers, freelancers and community members have put together a list of demands, which are:
* Paizo needs to hire a whistleblower/arbitration company.
* Said company must investigate Sara Marie's wrongful termination.
* Executives need to be held accountable and investigated
* Executives need to enter good faith negotiations with their employees
* Salaries need to be posted and raised; some employees live below the median living wage in Seattle
These are requests put together by people who know Paizo and have or still do work with them. These aren't fantasies, they're fundamental requirements of the employees to fix this company. I, the guy in charge of the Dice Will Roll Podcast, and many other content creators like Jessica Redekop of Valiant, Perram of Know Direction and Rise of the Rulelords have joined in in calling it; if you want things to be better, or maybe you just want to stop hearing about all this, then help us end it and email these fundamentals to customer.service@paizo.com and help make a change.
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A quick note about this. Given this post by an anonymous staff member, it seems like emailing customer service might not be the most effective way to proceed:
“Posts and CS emails won't be seen by the executive team unless they ask for them, which seems unlikely.
As for who to contact with your concerns, I would recommend anyone at the C-level, particularly Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, or Jeff Alvarez (firstname.lastname@paizo.com). They may not choose to listen, but at least they'll know you cared enough to try.”
Emailing the executive staff directly seems like it would be a more effective way. Again, for reference, those email addresses are:
lisa.stevens@paizo.com
erik.mona@paizo.com
jeff.alvarez@paizo.com
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Again...
I love this list of "demands" and those like it. Does anyone even hear themselves over their pitchforks and torches? You've already made your decisions and these demands set forth the groundwork of "trial by the mob is complete".
* Paizo needs to hire a whistleblower/arbitration company.
A whistleblower/arbitration company you say? While it's clear, even by Paizo supporters, that there are management issues within, we've skipped the entire "hire a company to help investigate our corporate culture and have an external review of the concerns noted" and leaped right to "arbitration". Nothing says, "I have an opinion and it's right" then jumping past steps 1-9 and right to 10.
* Said company must investigate Sara Marie's wrongful termination.
It's clear that few here have had to actually let someone go. In my personal vacuum believe Sara's termination was a a poor decision; however, said termination being immediately classified as "wrongful" by a group of individuals who are not Sara or Paizo is ludicrous. Good people are terminated regularly for bad reasons. Good people are also terminated regularly for good reasons. Welcome to the real world of at will employment. Paizo owes us on both ethical and the legal front absolutely no commentary regarding Sara's firing - it is between Sara and Paizo. It may have been a good decision, it may have been a bad decision. And no, Diego's walk-out doesn't taint this, he is also a good employee that could have made a bad decision, or a good decision - we don't need to know which. Offer Sara solidarity over being fired because you like Sara, but that's where any of our involvement on the personnel issue should end.
* Executives need to be held accountable and investigated
Of course accountability in any organization is critical for the organizations function. Billion dollar industries exist to support this. As for investigation, for what? Are you going to be disappointed if the investigation doesn't include a bullet list of items from JP and Crystal? How about how? Do you need daily progress reports or is the demand going to get louder when an investigation (which can take years for some organizations) is quiet? How do you know that there isn't already an investigation underway? A lot of the claims involve personnel, are you asking for details on personnel records? What if the investigation is done and nothing happens because there's no wrongdoing found? If Jeff isn't immediately fired is everyone making these demands going to assume that the accountability investigation is flawed, or are you going to actually listen to somebody that comes in and doesn't say what you want them to say? Are you going to heft those pitchforks higher? You know what, why not simply ask for a seat on the board?
* Executives need to enter good faith negotiations with their employees
What does this mean? Negotiate for what? Salaries? Well that's the next point you make. Sounds like another open ended demand where you have the opportunity to move your goalpost when what you see isn't being done to me.
* Salaries need to be posted and raised; some employees live below the median living wage in Seattle
Aaah my favorite. We have a fundamental wage problem in America. Yelling loudly at a company clearly hasn't fixed it for decades, and isn't going to fix it here. Is underpaying your workers bad? Yes, but like all things the answer comes with an "it's complicated". I saw one person say "rehire Sara and Diego and give them more!" Okay, does that mean everybody else gets the more too? What about the need for more employees to cover the fact that it's clear Paizo has an under-staffing problem? Where does that money come from in what is universally known as a poor-profit industry? What about Paizo employees? How much of this should be put on them and the fact it's their job, or are you going to do all the negotiation for them? Do we get to figure out where the money for the investigation comes from before or after this? Every gamer loves to speak out of both sides of their mouths. "I need to cancel my subscription, it's become too expensive to maintain", followed by, "why don't you pay your employees enough." Living wage is a real and good goal, but a demand like this isn't simply going to move the boulder.
You might want to try backing up a step and looking at your own bias before jumping to your list of demanded solutions.
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This is a great initiative, and I fully support it.
Greater protections for employees is an obvious win, and will let the creative people who make and support the making of the things we love escape burnout, and not be driven from the industry by negligence and abuse.
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It doesn't need my voice and isn't going to get it.
Agreed and seconded.
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Paizo's employees deserve better treatment I am 100 percent behind this. The people responsible for creating the very content we love deserve to be properly compensated for their work and to not have to face discrimination in the workplace, among many other things.
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It doesn't need my voice and isn't going to get it.
this is just stupid... you posted on this thread my friend....with your voice......
additionally, i really dont see why it is a problem to say "this firing sounds sketch...we want a 3rd party investigation"
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I hope we all understand that investigations like this can bankrupt a company, or at least raise prices on an already struggling economic situation. All this for unproven allegations.
I feel like we all need to take a breath and let Paizo try and figure this out.
Please, won't someone think of the management?
Companies shouldn't be able to hold their employees hostage to avoid boycotts and consumer influence.
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It doesn't need my voice and isn't going to get it.this is just stupid... you posted on this thread my friend....with your voice......
additionally, i really dont see why it is a problem to say "this firing sounds sketch...we want a 3rd party investigation"
Because I don't work there, and I can't comment on that whole situation, and neither do 99.999% of the posters here. If it sounds sketch and if it is, then the person who was fired should go speak to a damn attorney and go from there. They would be well within their rights to. This whole firestorm is set off by another former employee with a history of histrionics and a grudge it seems, and not even the person in question. Not even the one who resigned in solidarity, which I applaud I've done it prior, but guess what? I was still without a job for a week or so kind gesture or not.
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It doesn't need my voice and isn't going to get it.this is just stupid... you posted on this thread my friend....with your voice......
additionally, i really dont see why it is a problem to say "this firing sounds sketch...we want a 3rd party investigation"
Because I don't work there, and I can't comment on that whole situation, and neither do 99.999% of the posters here. If it sounds sketch and if it is, then the person who was fired should go speak to a damn attorney and go from there. They would be well within their rights to. This whole firestorm is set off by another former employee with a history of histrionics and a grudge it seems, and not even the person in question. Not even the one who resigned in solidarity, which I applaud I've done it prior, but guess what? I was still without a job for a week or so kind gesture or not.
You may be unfamiliar with Washington hiring and firing practice but it is a no fault state. Which means an employer can fire you, just say 'you are fired' and if they give no reason then it is legal and nothing you can do about it. If they give you a reason then they open themselves up to a court case. Welcome to why people are pro union. It requires documentation for people to be let go or a valid reason at minimum.
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You may be unfamiliar with Washington hiring and firing practice but it is a no fault state. Which means an employer can fire you, just say 'you are fired' and if they give no reason then it is legal and nothing you can do about it. If they give you a reason then they open themselves up to a court case. Welcome to why people are pro union. It requires documentation for people to be let go or a valid reason at minimum.It doesn't need my voice and isn't going to get it.this is just stupid... you posted on this thread my friend....with your voice......
additionally, i really dont see why it is a problem to say "this firing sounds sketch...we want a 3rd party investigation"
Because I don't work there, and I can't comment on that whole situation, and neither do 99.999% of the posters here. If it sounds sketch and if it is, then the person who was fired should go speak to a damn attorney and go from there. They would be well within their rights to. This whole firestorm is set off by another former employee with a history of histrionics and a grudge it seems, and not even the person in question. Not even the one who resigned in solidarity, which I applaud I've done it prior, but guess what? I was still without a job for a week or so kind gesture or not.
Dude I live in SC in one of the most pro corp/anti union (employee) states in the union, they can fire you for anything but you still have rights, and a paper trail helps as well. So that isn't gonna fly.
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I hope we all understand that investigations like this can bankrupt a company, or at least raise prices on an already struggling economic situation. All this for unproven allegations.
I feel like we all need to take a breath and let Paizo try and figure this out.
Please, won't someone think of the management?
Companies shouldn't be able to hold their employees hostage to avoid boycotts and consumer influence.
I’m not saying defend the management, I’m saying consider the actual facts at play and understand that a real possibility is burning this company to the ground on unproven allegations. We the customers have, at best, 2nd if not 3rd hand knowledge of these events. Let the wronged parties seek reparation, and we can decide after that.
Burning down the business due to accusations is horrible. There’s due process in the US for a reason. If these accusers have been wronged, sue and get reparations. That’ll be public record, then do with that what you will.
If we claim to love this company, give them a chance.
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Don't forget that many of us are trying to get Paizo to give an official (good) response to the allegations so that we can, in good conscience, support them. This isn't about tearing down something we love.
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Because I don't work there, and I can't comment on that whole situation, and neither do 99.999% of the posters here. If it sounds sketch and if it is, then the person who was fired should go speak to a damn attorney and go from there. They would be well within their rights to. This whole firestorm is set off by another former employee with a history of histrionics and a grudge it seems, and not even the person in question. Not even the one who resigned in solidarity, which I applaud I've done it prior, but guess what? I was still without a job for a week or so kind gesture or not.
You say that, but Jason Bulmahn has confirmed Jessica Price's account of sexual harassment and Bulmahn instructing his team not to speak with her (she was project manager at the time) after she rejected his advances, although he denies the two events were related.
Other people have corroborated other parts of Price's account as well, so I'm disinclined to dismiss her story out of hand.
Edit: Jason Bulmahn's tweet
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Because I don't work there, and I can't comment on that whole situation, and neither do 99.999% of the posters here. If it sounds sketch and if it is, then the person who was fired should go speak to a damn attorney and go from there. They would be well within their rights to. This whole firestorm is set off by another former employee with a history of histrionics and a grudge it seems, and not even the person in question. Not even the one who resigned in solidarity, which I applaud I've done it prior, but guess what? I was still without a job for a week or so kind gesture or not.You say that, but Jason Bulmahn has confirmed Jessica Price's account of sexual harassment and Bulmahn instructing his team not to speak with her (she was project manager at the time) after she rejected his advances, although he denies the two events were related.
Other people have corroborated other parts of Price's account as well, so I'm disinclined to dismiss her story out of hand.
He confirmed it? Is there a link?
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Maybe I misread it but he asked her out. That constitutes sexual harassment?
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Maybe I misread it but he asked her out. That constitutes sexual harassment?
I think that it was more the sequence of events being suspect. Asked her out, she declined, then she was cut away from the rest of the team. There certainly could be many reasons why things happened that way, but it is not - as the kids say - a good look.
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I mean, he himself says it was unacceptable.Maybe I misread it but he asked her out. That constitutes sexual harassment?I think that it was more the sequence of events being suspect. Asked her out, she declined, then she was cut away from the rest of the team. There certainly could be many reasons why things happened that way, but it is not - as the kids say - a good look.
Unacceptable sure, I get it.
And then there's Sara Marie implying Price's account is suspect.
Where was this?
Her Twitter.And then there's Sara Marie implying Price's account is suspect.Where was this?
It's private, so this isn't something that's common knowledge. Do you have a screengrab to share?
My private messages have always been enabled (unless something has changed recently). I absolutely respect Sara's privacy, but where was this brought up? This is the first I've heard of it.
It's already out there so here's a link to the other post
There's another bit about this making people to refute claims that aren't quite what they started as. So there was something, but not exactly what she worded it as.
Thank you for this, as it does add more context.
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The pointy that is getting lost because people being people is that Sara was fired. This may or may not be without cause. In response Diego stepped down as well. Price, as her way, has made this about her instead about Sara.
That is why I am here. To Support Sara and Diego as well as pushing for positive changes/improvements of Paizo. The Stuff with Price is old news and the fish keeps growing in size with each retelling.
As for Jeff, he isn;t homophobic but could be transphobic. Is he? I don;t have any clue. Crystal has aired her grievances. I also don;t like seeing Lulu quietly leaving and hinting it was due to systemic trans related issues.
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The pointy that is getting lost because people being people is that Sara was fired. This may or may not be without cause. In response Diego stepped down as well. Price, as her way, has made this about her instead about Sara.
That is why I am here. To Support Sara and Diego as well as pushing for positive changes/improvements of Paizo. The Stuff with Price is old news and the fish keeps growing in size with each retelling.
As for Jeff, he isn;t homophobic but could be transphobic. Is he? I don;t have any clue. Crystal has aired her grievances. I also don;t like seeing Lulu quietly leaving and hinting it was due to systemic trans related issues.
Definitely seems like a concerted effort to keep it off questions regarding the treatment of CS staff and on someone who seems to be a controversial figure. Firings and departures before your biggest PR days of the year scream mismanagement at the very least. If there's a pattern of transphobia that becomes clearer, my halt on purchases will become a stop.
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* Paizo needs to hire a whistleblower/arbitration company
This one in particular struck me as funny. If the accusations levied at the company are even close to the truth that means either you expect the people perpetrating the problem to willingly bring about their own downfall or if the allegations are false, waste money with a circus just to appease a portion of their audience that has proven for the past decade plus that if they just wait a few weeks the outrage will die down and everything will go back to normal.
* Executives need to be held accountable and investigated
* Executives need to enter good faith negotiations with their employees
* Salaries need to be posted and raised; some employees live below the median living wage in Seattle
Again, what idealistic world are you living in? They are either already doing these things and the accusations are false or they are true and management is doing what its doing because they WANT to. Paizo is not a publicly traded company. They do not back stock owners to appease. The closest they have to accountability is to their customer community and we have demonstrated for years that we will scream outrage when an incident occurs, argue about it for a few weeks, and then go back to playing our games when the next "shiny" is released. Until/Unless there is a major community shift, there is zero reason for Paizo to make any chances. Again, either the claims are false and there is no reason to change, or they are true and they exist because the managers are doing it on purpose. Its like telling a Nazi or a white supremacist to stop being a bad person and expecting them to have a sudden epiphany*.
There seems to be a massive divide between reality and the fluffy-bunny idealistic world many of the commenters thing they live in. They just don't get it.
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Welcome to why people are pro union. It requires documentation for people to be let go or a valid reason at minimum.
Only if its in the contract and some/many/most contracts do not contain such language because the union also wants the freedom for their employees to walk off the job for no reason. This is especially true with construction unions and those that do not have a specific ongoing workflow. You might see it more in a factory environment, but even then it is not consistent by any stretch. In my experience as both a union member and former contractor management its only when an employer wants to ban a specific worker from entering their property are reasons generally expressed and even then, the worker/union might not care and just move the worker to another contractor. Unfortunately, just like in non-union work, there are office politics and personalities that are often the root cause of most of the problems.
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Maybe I misread it but he asked her out. That constitutes sexual harassment?
In and of itself, no. Sexual harassment generally requires "unwanted." Unless there was a preemptive no, or some indication on Jessica's part that the question would be considered offensive, asking her out, or any co-worker is not automatically harassment. OTOH, once she expresses disinterest, if he persists or uses her refusal to negatively affect her work environment, that would absolutely be harassment.
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A quick note about this. Given this post by an anonymous staff member, it seems like emailing customer service might not be the most effective way to proceed:
“Posts and CS emails won't be seen by the executive team unless they ask for them, which seems unlikely.
As for who to contact with your concerns, I would recommend anyone at the C-level, particularly Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, or Jeff Alvarez (firstname.lastname@paizo.com). They may not choose to listen, but at least they'll know you cared enough to try.”
Emailing the executive staff directly seems like it would be a more effective way. Again, for reference, those email addresses are:
lisa.stevens@paizo.com
erik.mona@paizo.com
jeff.alvarez@paizo.com
Thanks, now iI know who to send my support:
"Dear Paizo,
First of all, I want to express my thanks and aprecciation for all the work you have placed in your wonderful products throughout the years.
It has come to my atention that there are currently some rumors going around about the company. Please, rest assured that I wil avoid jumping the gun in any social media witch trail until the dust is settled and continue to suppport with my patronage.
Best regards,"
Humbly,
Yawar
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Very well put YawarFiesta.
Thank you for all the contact information that has been provided and places to go to show support. Id just like to say overall im pretty impressed with the responce from the community here on the forums.
I think unionization would be a great idea. There is too much of a conflict of interest in corporate HR departments. It Essentially allows companies to police themselves which hardly ever proves effective.
After reading the Twitter posts, the only thing giving price any credibility is that some of what she stated has been corroborated. Frankly her posts were, at first read, an angry outburst of baisless claims from a jaded ex employee. With that said, the accusations are very concerning, and even with the questionable trustworthiness of the accuser and with or without ratifying comments, they need to be investigated thoroughly. Out right dismissal of the accusations based on Prices's past public dealings is not appropriate, but neither is immediately assuming guilt on the part of paizo and those accused.
#paizoaccountability has a connotation of complete guilt on the part of the accused. I do no agree with that. Its far more likely this ends up somewhere in the middle, with portions of Prices statements being true, some being embellished, and others being false.
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I think everyone needs to take a moment out of their day today and read Owen's thread, think about Sara's post about JP and the posts by many other Paizo employees.
Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread
Edit: Fixed link
Theoretically it can still be illegal if they don't give a reason. It's just a lot harder to prove than if they state a discriminatory reason.
You may be unfamiliar with Washington hiring and firing practice but it is a no fault state. Which means an employer can fire you, just say 'you are fired' and if they give no reason then it is legal and nothing you can do about it. If they give you a reason then they open themselves up to a court case. Welcome to why people are pro union. It requires documentation for people to be let go or a valid reason at minimum.
There are federal laws (and presumably state laws) against an employer retaliating against employees for certain activities (such as whistleblowing reports of illegal activities within the company). If Sara Marie has a legal case at all, this looks like it could be the most promising avenue for her to pursue.
Exactly. If it is more than hearsay. There is email, multiple witnesses to the incident or pictures. There is the state labor board and or Federal EEOC which would affect much greater change than tweets or posts. Mediation and legal action if warranted can be done. Also mediation does not open you up
to court procedures.
If it is a case of retaliation, the actions for which the retaliation occurred are unlikely to be in dispute. Then it would be up to the company to prove that the employee's termination was for some reason other than retaliation for those actions. That is why that would be the strongest case for the employee.
The return to work issue would probably be the weakest case. The company can easily prove that the department in question can do their job more efficiently from the office, so they would almost certainly win in a real court while losing in the court of public opinion over this issue being just one of many health and sanitation problems apparently left unaddressed over many years.
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I dunno, I'd say the thread where we saw customer service's response times and queue depth drop significantly while working from home is a very good evidence point that they can do their job more efficiently from the office.
Do you know what really hampers response times?
When your staff is off with covid for 2+ weeks.I can’t imagine they want to pay for testing, cleaning, and more workspace to accommodate best practice safety. Things are as bad as they were last winter. If they can work for home, my coworkers in the ER would appreciate if they continue to do so.