Call to Action: #PAIZOACCOUNTABILITY needs your voice


Paizo General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
YawarFiesta wrote:
Rysky wrote:

And if they raise the prices, then what?

Again, this is a luxury industry, not a necessity, and you can get all the rules for free.

We can push for the people making these products to be paid more, just like in commissioning art, but you have no right to demand they be paid less, and asking for stagnation of wages is just that.

Just because this is a luxury doesn't mean it is completely elastic to the price. Presumably, Paizo already prices their product at the price that maximizes their proffit, so any price change would likely hurt Paizo. Also, likewise, you don't have any right to demand other people pay more for a product.

Humbly,
Yawar

The laughable part of this is that in my ten years as a subscriber I have seen the price points change on books multiple times. When I started subscribing back in 2011, Adventure Paths were $19.99 each (which is the price they started at in 2007 with Burnt Offerings). Then in 2013, that price point went up to $22.99 with the first installment of Reign of Winter. In September 2015 that price went up again with Hell's Rebels to the current $24.99 price point. So yes, prices of the books is not an unchangeable number, and in fact they've been at the current price point for longer now than they have ever remained at one price.

YawarFiesta wrote:
Patrick Curtin wrote:


According to Rent Café, the average rent in Seattle for 700 square feet is $2169/mo. That is $26,028 a year. When most budgeting guides suggest you pay 25% of your income for housing, you can see the disconnect. That is also gross pay vs. a net cost. $36K in salary is likely $27K after taxes. So an employee trying to subsist on $36 K in a housing market that demands almost 100 % of their wages to participate is going to be under enormous financial stress. It’s ironic that the very employees who create the product would not be able to indulge in any gaming purchases due to lack of disposable income.

$36 K for an employee in a high-profile job in a successful company is just wrong. I know a lot of people who live in that area, and rent anxiety is a constant issue. Also, due to the construction of the city and its congestion, there are few options to live farther out without subjecting yourself to immensely long commutes.

I hope if you and your wife make less that $36K a year that you also live in a place where the rent is under $26K a year.

Be careful when using averages, higher end accomodation can really inflate those values. Also, the tendency in cities is moving towards size efficiency.

Humbly,
Yawar

Tendency in cities is moving towards size efficiency because nobody can afford otherwise.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Patrick Curtin wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
From my point of view, everyone talked about already makes more than me and my wife combined. Any cost increase would sadly mean stopping purchases. The trouble paizo has to balance is how many are on each side and whether raising prices would actually allow for increased staff care (in whatever form) or actually involve cutting staff due to lost sales.

According to Rent Café, the average rent in Seattle for 700 square feet is $2169/mo. That is $26,028 a year. When most budgeting guides suggest you pay 25% of your income for housing, you can see the disconnect. That is also gross pay vs. a net cost. $36K in salary is likely $27K after taxes. So an employee trying to subsist on $36 K in a housing market that demands almost 100 % of their wages to participate is going to be under enormous financial stress. It’s ironic that the very employees who create the product would not be able to indulge in any gaming purchases due to lack of disposable income.

$36 K for an employee in a high-profile job in a successful company is just wrong. I know a lot of people who live in that area, and rent anxiety is a constant issue. Also, due to the construction of the city and its congestion, there are few options to live farther out without subjecting yourself to immensely long commutes.

I hope if you and your wife make less that $36K a year that you also live in a place where the rent is under $26K a year.

Damn. I don't often feel lucky for being in the mid-west, but I make about Paizo wages apparently and for my mortgage I've got a lot more than that for a lot less per month.


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First, ceteris paribus, everything else being equal, no. A change in price usually means a change in market conditions, be it on side of the offer, podruction cost, or on the side of the demand, popularity, alternatives, etc. And a change in salary for administrative personnel would be an administrative cost son it would not factor directly on the price.

Second, yes. As long as people continue to prefer living in cities, the price of the cities limited space will increase until people end up living in Japanese style apartments, studios or "pods". The only thing Paizo could do about that is relocate to a less populated place to reduce the burden on the city.

Humbly,
Yawar

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
YawarFiesta wrote:

First, ceteris paribus, everything else being equal, no. A change in price usually means a change in market conditions, be it on side of the offer, podruction cost, or on the side of the demand, popularity, alternatives, etc. And a change in salary for administrative personnel would be an administrative cost son it would not factor directly on the price.

Second, yes. As long as people continue to prefer living in cities, the price of the cities limited space will increase until people end up living in Japanese style apartments, studios or "pods". The only thing Paizo could do about that is relocate to a less populated place to reduce the burden on the city.

Humbly,
Yawar

So you know for a fact that those are the reasons the prices went up in 2013 and 2015? Pray tell what gives you that knowledge?


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Uchuujin wrote:
Damn. I don't often feel lucky for being in the mid-west, but I make about Paizo wages apparently and for my mortgage I've got a lot more than that for a lot less per month.

That’s why you have to look at the wider picture when you talk income. $36K is a livable salary in many US markets. It’s not in Seattle. Where I personally live (the DC/MD/VA metro area), I am pulling close to the six-figure mark for the first time in my life, and only at this rarefied level am I starting to be able to breathe a bit easier and build up a retirement nest egg. Where I used to live (Cape Cod MA) there was the double whammy of sky-high cost of living and no well-paying jobs. Which is why I no longer live there, despite wishing I could.


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A basic course in accounting, another in micro-economics 101, and the assumption that Paizo management are rational actors.

Humbly,
Yawar


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YawarFiesta wrote:

… The only thing Paizo could do about that is relocate to a less populated place to reduce the burden on the city.

Humbly,
Yawar

Or, you know, raise their salaries so they don’t have to live in a pod ….


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Cori Marie wrote:


The laughable part of this is that in my ten years as a subscriber I have seen the price points change on books multiple times. When I started subscribing back in 2011, Adventure Paths were $19.99 each (which is the price they started at in 2007 with Burnt Offerings). Then in 2013, that price point went up to $22.99 with the first installment of Reign of Winter. In September 2015 that price went up again with Hell's Rebels to the current $24.99 price point. So yes, prices of the books is not an unchangeable number, and in fact they've been at the current price point for longer now than they have ever remained at one price.

2015 -> 2021 with inflation would be about $28.84 per AP book today if anyone's curious.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It's also weird that you don't seem to think employee salaries should factor into the cost of making the books.


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Mergy wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:
Also, it is not Paizo's responsability that their employees make a livable wage
This is repugnant, and I hope that only a small minority of Paizo customers have such ridiculous and cruel

If somebody enters a contract willingly it is their responsibility. If the conditions change and they need a salary increase they can demand it, however, if they do it and there is some body willing and able to do it for less (only possible if there is other people able to live on that salary) you might not like the results.

Humbly,
Yawar

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You have no empathy whatsoever do you?


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Cori Marie wrote:
You have no empathy whatsoever do you?

Yes, I do. I even been in the losing negotiating side. But all the empathy of the world won't make the rivers flow upwards.

Humbly,
Yawar


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Patrick Curtin wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:

… The only thing Paizo could do about that is relocate to a less populated place to reduce the burden on the city.

Humbly,
Yawar

Or, you know, raise their salaries so they don’t have to live in a pod ….

That would only make the problem Cori was referring to, the tendency for space in cities to get more expensive and the reduction of living spaces, worse.

Humbly,
Yawar

Silver Crusade

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… paying employees more… would make the cost of housing go up?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Wonder if he knows that cost of living has gone up faster than wages in most places.

Dark Archive

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Folx, if you keep saying mean stuff about capitalism, you might expose some of the many inherent contradictions between capitalism and democracy. No one wants that, right?


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Mergy wrote:

We're still waiting for a response to the initial allegations. Other issues have seen some response. This one seems hard to talk about for some reason.

If you feel I'm being repetitive and I'm bothering you, feel free to download a third party app like Paizo campaign tools and hide my posts. I'm going to keep asking for a response to these allegations until there is one.

So you have chosen to insert words into my mouth suggesting an attack on you from me, I don't think I have interacted with you before. Not cool.

I was asking because you seemed very insistent so I was accepting your right to response rather than dismissing your experience or assuming I had all the information,

Dark Archive

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Rysky wrote:
… paying employees more… would make the cost of housing go up?

Unfortunately in Seattle.... yes. You have Microsoft and Amazon which will throw off scales for rent. Paizo increasing their salaries will not even register. Not saying they shouldn't, but with an increase in local total compensation, there is usually an increase in total cost of living. This is usually manifested in rent/mortgage/housing prices.

Silver Crusade

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Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Rysky wrote:
… paying employees more… would make the cost of housing go up?

Unfortunately in Seattle.... yes. You have Microsoft and Amazon which will throw off scales for rent. Paizo increasing their salaries will not even register. Not saying they shouldn't, but with an increase in local total compensation, there is usually an increase in total cost of living. This is usually manifested in rent/mortgage/housing prices.

You lost me.

I know certain businesses being in/coming to the area will make the price of real estate hike *glares at Amazon*, but I fail to see how Paizo employees being paid more will make their rent increase.

Dark Archive

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Rysky wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Rysky wrote:
… paying employees more… would make the cost of housing go up?

Unfortunately in Seattle.... yes. You have Microsoft and Amazon which will throw off scales for rent. Paizo increasing their salaries will not even register. Not saying they shouldn't, but with an increase in local total compensation, there is usually an increase in total cost of living. This is usually manifested in rent/mortgage/housing prices.

You lost me.

I know certain businesses in the area make the price of real estate hike *glares at Amazon*, but I fail to see how Paizo employees being paid more will make their rent increase.

Sorry, I will try to be more precise.

Paizo can increase the salaries they pay their employees. I agree they should. Unfortunately, and I think I see where I went wrong with my statement or where the confusion lies, Paizo paying their employees more will not increase the employee's rent/mortgage, but the overall level of income/wealth in the area will increase rents/mortgages for everyone. It is a side effect of the two big employers mentioned. Totes when you factor in the geographic local for the three companies (they are all in the same general vicinity). It's not just Paizo, that entire metro area has a cost of living problem. Same as in Portland. My own hometown is grappling with housing density and cost of said. You are seeing the cost for a lack of urban planning for housing. And transportation. When everyone has to funnel in on one of three(?) bridges.... I have direct experience trying to drive into Seattle from the north during rush hour. It was awful.

Does that help?

Silver Crusade

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Yes, I don’t entirely agree but that’s probably on account of you being succinct for the sake of everyone including yourself heh.

But I get what you’re getting at.

My view is it’s the companies being there, rather than what the employees make, resulting in the price. If it was the latter well, the housing wouldn’t cost as much.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The cost of living in an area is not calculated based on the overall level of income/wealth. It is calculated via a comparison of the current market value of a specific index of common goods and services in a region.

Giving Paizo staff raises would not move the needle on cost of living adjustments to mortgages and rental rates in Seattle, it would just put them closer to parity with median earners in the region.

The Exchange

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Mimski wrote:
I am bewildered by the people here who maintain that a job... should not pay people enough to survive? I guess the difference in values is staggering to me.

And I'm bewildered again how the arguments posted can be misread that much. Because literally no one has said that.

Let's just be real for a moment. Of course everone would like the people working in the RPG industry earning wages that allow them to live a comfortable life (in fact, just to survive isn't enough). Reality (aka capitalism) doesn't work that way, though, because the so-called invisibile hand is completely rigged in favor of the already rich.

Which means, that WotC is probably the only rpg publisher who can afford to pay satisfying wages in the current economy without putting a sweat. And they are also probably the only publisher that can afford to fail without putting its own existence at threat immediately.

To say that doesn't change a bit how I wish it would be otherwise, but then my wishes also don't change a bit how reality works.

I'll gladly pay more if I can, and in fact I'm already doing so, because I already throw away a substantial amount of money to keep my subscription because even with the legacy advantage, thanks to international shipping, I pay 30 $ for each AP issue when I just could spend 18$ on the pdf (which is the only thing I use anyway). The only reason I am doing that is because a Paizo official once told me how important subscriptions are for the Paizo model.

I already spend all my free money (aka the money I don't need for anything else) on either RPG products (Paizo, 3PPs, other games), on books or on music (mostly smaller bands that need any support as much as the Paizo employees do).

And yesterday I had this small conversation with Liz where I agreed that I could afford to pay slightly more on each product. I still stand by that, but given that the other costs in the publishing industry will also keep rising, there will soon come a point where I have to decide which costs to cut. And the easiest way to do so would be to cut costs at the Paizo front, because most of money goes to them.

Pointing that out doesn't mean that I don't want Paizo employees to earn more. What it means though is that Paizo probably has to think hard about how to do that without putting their whole business at risk.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

if paizo's employees cant make a living wage in washington, then maybe they should move their office or find a way to pay the employees more, even if it means increasing the prices of their books or finding another way. All of their content can be bought as pdfs and the rules themselves are for FREE on archives of nethys. These are luxury goods and they create multiple books a year, the employees deserve to be paid better and YES, it is paizo's responsibility to make sure their employees can make a livable wage

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