Call to Action: #PAIZOACCOUNTABILITY needs your voice


Paizo General Discussion

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Dark Archive

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I was waiting for more information and some clearer heads to prevail before jumping to any conclusions. (Too old, no more jumping to anything for this dude.)

But if Liz Courts says a thing is so, then I'm convinced. She's the real deal.

Dark Archive

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Catulle wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:

It’s also VERY easy to say just rebuild the company from the ground up.

It takes this thing called money to do so. The goodwill of the fan base too except goodwill is not an acceptable form of currency in banks.

I want to see them improve except the way some of you talk you make it sound so incredibly easy, strew free and more importantly making it look like it cost nothing or very little in terms of cash.

So perfect scenario you get what you want except it causes them to have to spend more money yo do so the cost ends up on the shoulders of the consumer. Certainly not the owners of the company why souls the absorb the cost of all the changes. Then the same people here claiming for change will then complain about the products costing more. Or do you think paying better wages was going to come out of the owner pocket.

Using the human shield strategy is beneath contempt.

Hi welcome to capatalism

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just to address the criticisms of the first point made vis a vis hiring a third party whistleblower firm: this was a point made by a Paizo employee, not a random community member. I hope that clears things up.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Posting to show my support for past and present members of the Paizo family, including Sara, Diego, Lu, Liz, Crystal, and Jessica, as well as anyone else hurting from...everything.

I don't know what else to say that hasn't been said more eloquently by someone else. I will say I wish I could hear more from Sara about what happened recently. Some kind of response about management's transphobic behavior Crystal talked about is also essential for my continued patronage.

On the matter of raising wages, from what Mark Seifter has said, that might not be very financially viable for Paizo right now. Another option that was raised was moving Paizo's HQ to a more inexpensive area, which sounds great if they can make that work. Same with raising prices on their books (although I'm worried that could easily have an opposite effect).

I don't know what to campaign for here, but there are a couple of things I would personally like to see. While I don't intend for this to be a long-term solution, I'd love for Paizo to allot a space on their website for each of their staff to advertise their personal work and accomplishments, and promote their names. In addition, it would be great for a tip feature to be implemented, that would contribute directly toward the developers and freelancers who put their heart and sweat into these awesome works of art. I for one would be more than willing to forego my subscription discounts to put that extra money directly in the hands of the developers who deserve it.

Don't know much of the pros and cons of this approach, but at least it'd give us consumers a way to help alleviate this financial pain in the meantime.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Please charge me more so the employees can be paid more.


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This right here ^


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Maybe I am too cynical as I get older yet it is easy for anyone and everyone to say they want to pay more VS really wanting to pay more.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

You mean words are much easier to speak than actions are to take? So what Paizo says carries less weight than what it does?

Dark Archive

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
You mean words are much easier to speak than actions are to take? So what Paizo says carries less weight than what it does?

Never ever change. <3


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Plus honestly, I don’t think there would be too much suffering on the owners part if they took a cut in pay

Dark Archive

Patrick Curtin wrote:
Plus honestly, I don’t think there would be too much suffering on the owners part if they took a cut in pay

Well first they dont really run the company at this point and second pretty sure Mark Seier already coverd part of this.


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Kevin Mack wrote:
Patrick Curtin wrote:
Plus honestly, I don’t think there would be too much suffering on the owners part if they took a cut in pay
Well first they dont really run the company at this point and second pretty sure Mark Seier already coverd part of this.

They don’t run the company, but they own the company. I’m not really processing the fact that Liz made 36K a year in her position while living in Seattle. That seems a bit … what’s the word … exploitive? You can say ‘hey yo, capitalism” but you could say the same thing about the Gilded Age (and people did).

Dark Archive

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Please charge me more so the employees can be paid more.

On the one hand that does seem a simple solution unfortunatly it is very rarely as simple since it is a very tight rope to balance because any form of price increase will lead to at least some number of people to quit buying the product meaning any increase in revenue due to price rise can end up being offset by the decrease in people buying the product (or in really bad cases lead to an actual decrease in profits)

Another problem is when you have an industry with one company much bigger than anyone else since they essentially get to set the market price (Wizards due to magic could easilly afford to keep the prices of all there books cheap if they want to for instance)

The Exchange

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Please charge me more so the employees can be paid more.

This was basically what Mark Seifter pointed out would need to happen for this particular problem to get solved. He also points out that this needs to be supported by more than 1% of the fandom because it wouldn't help anybody if the other 99% would stop buying stuff.

Mark's post is a great read, especially when he points out that those low wages might not even have to do with exploitation (citing Erik and Jason as examples of people higher in the hierarchy who probably don't get that much money either).

And just for the record: I'd love to pay them more if that money went to their employees. But given my budget and depending on what "more" means, chances are that I couldn't afford to do so.

Dark Archive

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It is very possible some people are shocked at how big an issue transphobia is. And I suppose at some point they will join us in the current year.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
You mean words are much easier to speak than actions are to take? So what Paizo says carries less weight than what it does?

I'm saying it is easy to say in public that one wants to pay more. In private it is usual the opposite imo. I am willing to pay for more though I am also slowly migrating towards PDF only so an increase in price for me at least is not that hard to absorb.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Please charge me more so the employees can be paid more.

No, need. You can just buy multiple copies of the PDFs from extra accounts if you are so inclined to give extra money to Paizo.

Humbly,
Yawar


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Jot me down as someone who would gladly pay more. Prices are so massively depressed in the tabletop industry; even the humblest indie product is probably looking at tens of hours of development time, plus the specialized skillsets of creative writing, technical writing, illustration, and layout… and then it’ll sell for $5 or less. I commissioned a single piece of cover art for one of my books and paid the relatively-low $150 for it - my wallet trembled in fear when I read the Mwangi book and saw how lavish the art was.

This is not a Paizo-exclusive thing, it’s the whole industry. Tabletop prices need to go up for things to be equitable and fair to the workers who make it all happen.


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Mergy wrote:
It is very possible some people are shocked at how big an issue transphobia is. And I suppose at some point they will join us in the current year.

I see that you have brought this up repeatedly, has there been evidence brought up that has revealed transphobia?

I have read the original accusatory statements, just wondering if more has come up since then.

Dark Archive

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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Mergy wrote:
It is very possible some people are shocked at how big an issue transphobia is. And I suppose at some point they will join us in the current year.

I see that you have brought this up repeatedly, has there been evidence brought up that has revealed transphobia?

I have read the original accusatory statements, just wondering if more has come up since then.

We're still waiting for a response to the initial allegations. Other issues have seen some response. This one seems hard to talk about for some reason.

If you feel I'm being repetitive and I'm bothering you, feel free to download a third party app like Paizo campaign tools and hide my posts. I'm going to keep asking for a response to these allegations until there is one.


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Sure it always "bad faith arguments" when I am posting something in opposition to the point be made. I can do that too when I cannot respond constructively to the poster. I expect nothing less on this forum as many here REALLY do not want anyone to have a different opinion. Nor surprised I am not going to change and neither will anyoe else so why bother bothering to even engage in a discussion.

I want to see them address the issue of Transphobia yet I also realize it will take time. So I am willing to see how they handle it. Im not going to automatically I assume they will not simply because I dislike the response they gave.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Mergy wrote:
It is very possible some people are shocked at how big an issue transphobia is. And I suppose at some point they will join us in the current year.

I see that you have brought this up repeatedly, has there been evidence brought up that has revealed transphobia?

I have read the original accusatory statements, just wondering if more has come up since then.

It is mostly referring to the treatment of Crystal Fraser, who was not allowed to go to cons as it would mean sharing a room with another woman, even though they were fine with it. There is a tweet from her on this linked way back in the thread.


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Either that or sales have to increase massively. While I am more than fine to pay more, not sure on the price elasticity of RPG books. While I see lots of players and GMs with great jobs and lots of disposable income those have limited time and tend to be selective buyers. More completionists tend to have more time and less money…..

So not sure how to make this work. The quality of RPG books in arts etc has massively increased, but not sure it helps the business model.

Still I am sure they can make improvements that don’t cost much…

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Particular Jones wrote:

Sure it always "bad faith arguments" when I am posting something in opposition to the point be made. I can do that too when I cannot respond constructively to the poster. I expect nothing less on this forum as many here REALLY do not want anyone to have a different opinion. Nor surprised I am not going to change and neither will anyoe else so why bother bothering to even engage in a discussion.

I want to see them address the issue of Transphobia yet I also realize it will take time. So I am willing to see how they handle it. Im not going to automatically I assume they will not simply because I dislike the response they gave.

What do you call bringing back up wages when someone is talking about transphobia if not bad faith?

Contributor

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Opsylum wrote:
On the matter of raising wages, from what Mark Seifter has said, that might not be very financially viable for Paizo right now. Another option that was raised was moving Paizo's HQ to a more inexpensive area, which sounds great if they can make that work. Same with raising prices on their books (although I'm worried that could easily have an opposite effect).

Paizo employees have friends, families, partners with their own careers, and a myriad other concerns that make packing up and moving the whole operation and everyone inolved to a different state not only a challenge, but also a horrible thing to ask of employees.

What would be better is allowing remote work. Currently, some employees can work remotely, while others are forced to relocate. The pandemic has proven to us that these people all CAN remote work; the designers, editors, and other staff all have been, and the work is all getting done. The books are coming out. If all staff were afforded the same opportunity to choose remote work, they could choose for themselves if they wish to live in WA, or somewhere else where their paycheque stretches further. It also removes the burden of moving costs on new hires and makes the job postings more accessible to minority developers, and eliminates hours of commute time for staff who live in WA but can't afford housing in Redmond close to the office.

Shadow Lodge

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YawarFiesta wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Please charge me more so the employees can be paid more.

No, need. You can just buy multiple copies of the PDFs from extra accounts if you are so inclined to give extra money to Paizo.

Humbly,
Yawar

And you believe this will actually put more money in the employees pockets.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jessica Redekop wrote:

Paizo employees have friends, families, partners with their own careers, and a myriad other concerns that make packing up and moving the whole operation and everyone inolved to a different state not only a challenge, but also a horrible thing to ask of employees.

What would be better is allowing remote work. Currently, some employees can work remotely, while others are forced to relocate. The pandemic has proven to us that these people all CAN remote work; the designers, editors, and other staff all have been, and the work is all getting done. The books are coming out. If all staff were afforded the same opportunity to choose remote work, they could choose for themselves if they wish to live in WA, or somewhere else where their paycheque stretches further. It also removes the burden of moving costs on new hires and makes the job postings more accessible to minority developers, and eliminates hours of commute time for staff who live in WA but can't afford housing in Redmond close to the office.

Thanks for the insight, Jessica, and for what you've shared recently. This sounds like a fantastic reform for Paizo, and I'll help however I can to push for it.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

They took away the option of buying multiple copies of a PDF, sadly. (Though there are ways around it, it’s a little awkward now).

Initially you could just add multiple copies of a PDF into your sidecart. They stopped that, then later instituted a check to bar you from buying a PDF you’ve already got.

Contributor

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Some additional commentary from me regarding a few points in this thread.

Relying upon any one person to "fix" or "save" a problem is inherently problematic. Many of the concerns being raised are endemic to not only Paizo, but the industry as a whole. It's not a task for any one person to fix, because it's not a problem caused by any one person. This is a team effort.

And since folks are concerned with cost of a book to consumers, we're gonna do a bit of math. Now, most of these print numbers are hypothetical, because I don't have access to that information anymore, but they are based on past releases.

Let's say Paizo has 100 employees (again, not sure, but let's be generous), and wages increase by $5000 across the board, so $500k a year more in labor. In our hypothetical print run for a hardcover book, let's say it's 20,000, with the MSRP being $39.99. In order for that labor cost to be absorbed, the cost would have to go up by $25.

This hypothetical model only accounts for a single product, not the multiples that Paizo produces in a year. That's simply not the scale Paizo works at. Let's expand our hypothetical print run to the following:


  • 4 hardcovers a year, 20k print run each
  • 18 APs and adventures a year, 5k each
  • 24 PDFs, 2k each

Again, Paizo makes more products than this in a year, but the number of units in this hypothetical print run is 188,000. To absorb that wage increase each unit would have to have an MSRP increase of...almost $3. If I subscribed to every item in this hypothetical print run, it would cost me an extra $146 a year (or about 13 typical Starbucks orders for me).

If the difference between employees getting better wages is my latte, pastry, and sandwich treat, then that is a price I am willing and happy to pay.

At the end of the day, for the consumers, this is a hobby, a luxury. The entertainment you enjoy is created by the hard work of the folks in it. That doesn't mean that those working in the industry should not get a fair compensation for their labor.

And as a preemptive commentary about company profit margins and cost of goods and blah blah blah. No s&%%, we know, that's capitalism. Having the power to make decisions in favor of your employees, even at the cost of profit, is also a choice.

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