Call to Action: #PAIZOACCOUNTABILITY needs your voice


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zeonsghost wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
I dunno, I'd say the thread where we saw customer service's response times and queue depth drop significantly while working from home is a very good evidence point that they can do their job more efficiently from the office.

Do you know what really hampers response times?

When your staff is off with covid for 2+ weeks.

I can’t imagine they want to pay for testing, cleaning, and more workspace to accommodate best practice safety. Things are as bad as they were last winter. If they can work for home, my coworkers in the ER would appreciate if they continue to do so.

Is Washington actually that much more dangerous than New Jersey at the moment? I suspect that I may actually be at greater risk in this regard than the Paizo folks are.

But most of these issues do seem to involve the tradeoff between spending a certain amount of money now vs. incurring an ever growing risk of truly catastrophic losses later. For example, Paizo never took the obvious step of upgrading their phone system once it became obvious that they would not have everyone back in the office after a month or so. If they had taken care of that, then they would be under less pressure to get the CS folks back in the office.

Silver Crusade

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Also working from home can be hampered by not being supplied with the right setup to enable such working conditions in the first place.

(no idea if that was the case or not)


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David knott 242 wrote:
zeonsghost wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
I dunno, I'd say the thread where we saw customer service's response times and queue depth drop significantly while working from home is a very good evidence point that they can do their job more efficiently from the office.

Do you know what really hampers response times?

When your staff is off with covid for 2+ weeks.

I can’t imagine they want to pay for testing, cleaning, and more workspace to accommodate best practice safety. Things are as bad as they were last winter. If they can work for home, my coworkers in the ER would appreciate if they continue to do so.

Is Washington actually that much more dangerous than New Jersey at the moment? I suspect that I may actually be at greater risk in this regard than the Paizo folks are.

But most of these issues do seem to involve the tradeoff between spending a certain amount of money now vs. incurring an ever growing risk of truly catastrophic losses later. For example, Paizo never took the obvious step of upgrading their phone system once it became obvious that they would not have everyone back in the office after a month or so. If they had taken care of that, then they would be under less pressure to get the CS folks back in the office.

From what I understand they've got spikes like most of the country and are receiving overflow cases from nearby states that exist in healthcare deserts. Being a good employer and a good citizen means they should have done that or found a workaround. It's not like the whole world hasn't had to make do.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

Also working from home can be hampered by not being supplied with the right setup to enable such working conditions in the first place.

(no idea if that was the case or not)

That is a fair point.


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Rysky wrote:

Also working from home can be hampered by not being supplied with the right setup to enable such working conditions in the first place.

(no idea if that was the case or not)

My company set things up so that we could forward calls from our business phones to our home/cell phones. While I did not personally take advantage of it, something like that would have kept things running much more smoothly for Paizo's Customer Service department. The lack of Paizo's customer service number at the bottom of this page is evidence that they still have not done anything like that.


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David knott 242 wrote:
zeonsghost wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
I dunno, I'd say the thread where we saw customer service's response times and queue depth drop significantly while working from home is a very good evidence point that they can do their job more efficiently from the office.

Do you know what really hampers response times?

When your staff is off with covid for 2+ weeks.

I can’t imagine they want to pay for testing, cleaning, and more workspace to accommodate best practice safety. Things are as bad as they were last winter. If they can work for home, my coworkers in the ER would appreciate if they continue to do so.

Is Washington actually that much more dangerous than New Jersey at the moment? I suspect that I may actually be at greater risk in this regard than the Paizo folks are.

But most of these issues do seem to involve the tradeoff between spending a certain amount of money now vs. incurring an ever growing risk of truly catastrophic losses later. For example, Paizo never took the obvious step of upgrading their phone system once it became obvious that they would not have everyone back in the office after a month or so. If they had taken care of that, then they would be under less pressure to get the CS folks back in the office.

In Washington the hospitals and urgent cares are no longer testing unless you have symptoms because the healthcare system is overloaded. Idaho is in triage mode and is sending their overflow to Washington. Idaho for some reason has an extremely low vax rate.

Is it worse? I don't know. I do know that we are locking down and the county Seattle is in is increasing restrictions. You now must show proof of vaccine to dine in.

If people can work from home right now they should be.


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David knott 242 wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Also working from home can be hampered by not being supplied with the right setup to enable such working conditions in the first place.

(no idea if that was the case or not)

My company set things up so that we could forward calls from our business phones to our home/cell phones. While I did not personally take advantage of it, something like that would have kept things running much more smoothly for Paizo's Customer Service department. The lack of Paizo's customer service number at the bottom of this page is evidence that they still have not done anything like that.

All they had to do was get a ring central number for 25 a month and forward their CS number to it. Then have whatever CS team member manning the phone that day log into the client and pick it up on a computer or cell phone app.

.... this is the one thing I don't understand why someone on their end hasn't figured out yet ....


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

There may be issues around protecting staff.

Historically, some of the worst abuse of Paizo CS staff by customer has been via phone. Given the likely increase in grar arising from the pandemic delays, there may well have been a decision taken to shield the staff from that immediate, somewhat personal outlet of anger.

(I haven’t heard that said, I’m just speculating).

Grand Lodge

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I only speak for myself, but having a customer service department that was anywhere from six weeks to three months behind in responding to customer issues for the better part of a year and a half, was one of the worst cases of mismanagement I have ever seen. We cannot know for sure who is essentially responsible for it, but the evidence seems to indicate it was above Sara Marie's head, likely Jeff (being the senior operations manager). It is fairly clear that the CS department was doing the best they could with the resources available which places the responsibility solely on management. That they couldn't even create a "hotline" to address emergency issues where a customer's credit card was at risk is appalling and why I will never tie myself to a re-occurring subscription with them ever again.


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Of all of this, I do hope that the mention of trans employees facing a double standard over hotel and convention accommodations gets a concrete response ASAP.

For a company whose public image and fandom leans so heavily on queer rep, it's an allegation that cuts pretty deep - and having been screwed over by a previous corporate employer's HR department completely dropping the ball on some workplace transphobia myself, it's something I take seriously enough to not give Paizo money over. There's obviously a lot in the air right now, but this is one talking point I've seem almost no noise about, and I'm desperate to make sure it doesn't get lost. A /very/ convincing refutation or some pretty ugly confessions followed by tangible action* are necessary for me to come back.

*If this allegation is true? Whoever oversaw it, in any capacity, has to go.

Grand Lodge

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It seems to be fairly clear from Jeff, Erik, and those who have posted in support of them that no one (at least no one currently working with Paizo) is substantiating the hotel/trans claims suggested in social media and are fairly strongly denying it. Given that admittance would be grounds for a fairly serious wrongful termination lawsuit or at least a complain with the DoL, there is zero chance they are going to post anything more than what has already been shared. That being (1) they support people in the trans community, (2) strive to maintain an inclusive and respectful environment and (3) they continue to look for ways to improve the relations in their workspace.

If it did happen, it would have been at the highest levels of leadership and those people are not going to resign just because a couple of people laid a claim in a social media rant, especially when at least one of them has a very dubious reputation.


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TwilightKnight wrote:

It seems to be fairly clear from Jeff, Erik, and those who have posted in support of them that no one (at least no one currently working with Paizo) is substantiating the hotel/trans claims suggested in social media and are fairly strongly denying it. Given that admittance would be grounds for a fairly serious wrongful termination lawsuit or at least a complain with the DoL, there is zero chance they are going to post anything more than what has already been shared. That being (1) they support people in the trans community, (2) strive to maintain an inclusive and respectful environment and (3) they continue to look for ways to improve the relations in their workspace.

If it did happen, it would have been at the highest levels of leadership and those people are not going to resign just because a couple of people laid a claim in a social media rant, especially when at least one of them has a very dubious reputation.

I've worked for companies that publicly espoused queer-inclusive virtues while treating its trans employees like dirt behind the scenes. It's not hard at all for me to imagine - though I'd be glad to be shown that it didn't happen. Paizo is a company I like! I'd really like to believe they're above this.

Do you have a link to anyone refuting these specific allegations? I've just seen a lot of "well, they've always been good to queer people around me," but I could've missed something.


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keftiu wrote:
Of all of this, I do hope that the mention of trans employees facing a double standard over hotel and convention accommodations gets a concrete response ASAP.

This is one of the most significant issues for me as well. Reading that account from someone I implicitly trust and respect enormously was heart wrenching.


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FWIW, I haven't seen any denials of the transphobia beyond the "I have gay friends" comment. I would also be very happy to learn that the problem has been solved.

Grand Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
Do you have a link to anyone refuting these specific allegations

Jeff essentially denied it with his comment. Erik's denials were a bit more pointed. The few current employees who have commented and a few former, like Owen, have said exactly what you did, that they are unaware of any of the people accused having said/done the things they are accused of. Does doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen but fair is fair. We place a lot of value on the accusations exactly because multiple people are claiming it. The more people who cry wolf, the more likely their is a worf. So, it stands to reason that the more people who say they never say a wolf around, the less likely there is a wolf.

We cannot say that because a few people said a bad thing happened we have to believe them just on their word, but then turn around and dismiss it when a a few people say nothing happened because there is no proof. That is unreasonable and irrational.

*To be clear, I don't think anyone said anything to the effect of "to directly respond to the allegations made by Jessica and Crystal regarding the treatment of trans people and with regards to hotel rooms, I/we deny it and affirm it never happened." I wouldn't expect them to give power to her claims by acknowledging them directly. However, it is fairly easy to read that their public statements are a general denial of the accusations that have be made with some (Erik's) being stronger than others (Jeff).


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TwilightKnight wrote:
So, it stands to reason that the more people who say they never say a wolf around, the less likely there is a wolf.

Excepting of course that several of the people saying they never saw a wolf are those accused of being wolves in human suits in one way or another.

A denial doesn’t immediately have more weight than an accusation simply by existing.


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TwilightKnight wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Do you have a link to anyone refuting these specific allegations
Jeff essentially denied it with his comment. Erik's denials were a bit more pointed.

Neither one of them said anything about the allegations of trans employees being denied the chance to share hotel rooms with cis coworkers or attend conventions.

Grand Lodge

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dirtypool wrote:
A denial doesn’t immediately have more weight than an accusation simply by existing.

No, but that is exactly the point. The very people who are accused are the ones being expected to police themselves. Its silly. That's not to say something shoudln't be done. Of course it should, but most of the "solutions" being offered in forum-land are, to be blunt asinine. Either they didn't do the things they are accused of and there is nothing Paizo needs to do about it. Or, they did do it, are denying it, and therefore have little to no reason to do anything about it.

I feel like I'm speaking to an empty mic. I hope someone understands what I am saying.

Grand Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
Neither one of them said anything about the allegations of trans employees being denied the chance to share hotel rooms with cis coworkers or attend conventions.

As I said in my other comment, there are a lot of allegations. That is just one. They are not addressing each one individually. They and their advocates are making general denials. If they start to address any of the allegations individually, its going to be a never-ending chain of, "oh yeah, well what about..." Just like you are primarily concerned with the trans/hotel incident, there are other people equally concerned about other incidents, some going back years.


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They are addressing specific allegations individually. They are picking and choosing (as is their right).

They haven’t commented on whether that one happened, nor on what the current policy is.


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“TwilightKnight” wrote:


I feel like I'm speaking to an empty mic. I hope someone understands what I am saying.

It might feel that way because your communication is somewhat inconsistent. You will post one statement about how the leadership shouldn’t be leading the defense, then you’ll post two more claiming that the volume of denials having more value than the accusations, then you’ll give Paizo credit for denials and refutations they have not made. Then you’ll bring up “years of known issues” that no one else seems to know about.


Unions cannot really keep firings from happening though, they are there to make sure people's rights are respected.

Liberty's Edge

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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Unions cannot really keep firings from happening though, they are there to make sure people's rights are respected.

Which just might be enough to prevent some firings actually.


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I dunno about you people, but I'm busy following Twitter and other social media accounts of all Paizo low-to-mid level staff and freelancers. Follows means ranges, ranges mean jobs.

Plus, those are some awesome, quirky, interesting and zany folks.

Since Twitter is one of crucial job tools of mine these days (yes, I get paid to tear bad people apart on social media, what's not to love?) I will compile a list of Twitter handles to follow at some point.

Liberty's Edge

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Really happy to see you back, Totally Not.

I would love to see Deadmanwalking come back too. Does anyone know what happened to them ?


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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
I will compile a list of Twitter handles to follow at some point.

That would be fantastic.


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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
I will compile a list of Twitter handles to follow at some point.

Oh hey something I can help with. Others may have personal Twitter accounts but these are the folks who are public enough and active enough that Twitter has recommended I follow them. Includes higher-ups because I am not a good arbiter of the category "low-to-mid". Apologies to any staff that I've missed that feel they should be on this and also apologies to any staff who would prefer not to be on this.

Raychael Allor: @AnnonInGelydh
Brian Bauman: @BrianMBauman
Jason Bulmahn: @Jason Bulmahn
Logan Bonner: @loganbonner
James Case: @toriariaria
John Compton: @Archaeotagh
Adam Daigle: @Daigle
Katina Davis: @KatinaLMDavis
Cosmo Eisele: @feralsloth
Eleanor Ferron: @Izsisu
Leo Glass: @leoglasswrites
Logan Harper: @itsloganharper
Mika Hawkins: @mikamala
Thurston Hillman: @OnCallGm
Patrick Hurley: @hurlepat
Jenny Jarzabski: @jenjski
Jason Keeley: @herzwesten
Mike Kimmel: @_MikeKimmel
Avi Kool: @legalizegoblins
Maryssa Lagervall: @maryssamari
Ron Lundeen: @RPGRonLundeen
Luis Loza: @donatoclassic
Erik Mona: @erikmona
Mark Moreland: @yoda8myhead
Sonja Morris: @robosapienx
Ianara Natividad: @Imachinate
Joe Pasini: @joeadultman
Sarah Robinson: @sarahrob72
Michael Sayre: @MichaelJSayre1
Mark Seifter: @MarkSeifter
Aaron Shanks: @aaronwshanks
Alex Speidel: @AlexSpeidel
Levi Steadman: @arrannai
Jason Tondro: @doctorcomics
Tonya Woldridge: @TonyaPaizo
Linda Zayas-Palmer: @lzpalmer


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Ex-Paizo people deserve recognition, too:

Joan Hong: @joannenotjown
Sean K Reynolds: @seankreynolds
F. Wesley Schneider: @FWesSchneider
James L. Sutter: @jameslsutter
Owen K. C. Stephens: @Owen_Stephens
Crystal Frasier: @AmazonChique
Amanda Hamon: @amandahamon
Liz Courts: @lilithdarkmoon
Alison J. McKenzie: @alisonjmckenzie

I'll add more as I locate them.

Silver Crusade

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Evan Tarlton wrote:
FWIW, I haven't seen any denials of the transphobia beyond the "I have gay friends" comment. I would also be very happy to learn that the problem has been solved.

No, that was in response to the allegation that he called gay staffers the f slur, not in response to the allegations that the trans woman developer was not allowed to go to cons.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Unions cannot really keep firings from happening though, they are there to make sure people's rights are respected.
Which just might be enough to prevent some firings actually.

Even then, but that is why Unions tend to provide insurance that helps to cover lawyer fees.


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Morality requires more than empathy, it requires demonstrable action. One can feel bad about something and disagree with it but if they do nothing with it, oh well, at least they were empathic.

Silver Crusade

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Hmm, if only there was things people could do now.

Hmm maybe cancel their subs and show support and organize, hmmm

Silver Crusade

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And again, there's action being taken, support of creators and employees who are hurting, asks for the Paizo management to take action on. Just because we aren't boycotting does not mean we are not doing something. The fact that you think the only meaningful action is to completely withhold our money is completely bonkers.


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Mergy wrote:

Every day at least one person comes out of the woodwork with the "it's morally superior to not care about anything" sort of stance. Either because things can't possibly change, because they shouldn't, or because they don't personally effect the person.

Every day we tell those people to pound sand.

I did not say change was not possible. However, businesses care about their bottom line. Unless people are willing to stop buying Paizo products then all they are doing is complaining. Loudly and often, but still complaining. Their complaints, from what I have read, certainly have merit, people do not deserve to be discriminated against, but businesses don't always care about merit of complaints.


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Cori Marie wrote:
And again, there's action being taken, support of creators and employees who are hurting, asks for the Paizo management to take action on. Just because we aren't boycotting does not mean we are not doing something. The fact that you think the only meaningful action is to completely withhold our money is completely bonkers.

In a capitalistic society, with business, money is the key.

I hope that people remember this when they get their new phones and technology and shop at Wal-Mart.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

In a capitalistic society, with business, money is the key.

Hence why so many of us have been talking about cancelling subscriptions. Thanks for reiterating what we were discussing in these threads on Wednesday and Thursday


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Some do not live on these boards but have responsibilities outside of monitoring a gaming companies behavior.


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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Some do not live on these boards but have responsibilities outside of monitoring a gaming companies behavior.

General etiquette is to catch up a discourse before jumping into the middle of it.


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With the current outrage, one might never catch up on these posts :)

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