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That's one of the biggest reasons why I am not canceling my subscriptions (yet). Washing my hands of it takes away what little power I have to push for change, and it's likelier that a bunch of canceled subscriptions would just result in layoffs. People need some security. Life can be so precarious. Look at what happened to Adam Daigle.
To be fair, that is exactly why this has continued to fester for years. Paizo knows that we all love the creative team and don’t want to hurt them. A meaningful boycott would likely result in downsizing. But here’s the thing. Those creative minds are recognized as some of the best in the industry. They are highly sought after and will be okay in the long run. We cannot continue to allow Paizo to do business as usual. Management might be toxic, but it’s not dumb. In the past when they’ve separated from a high profile employee, they’ve learned to keep quiet about it, let the fervor die down and focus on the next new shiny to distract us. They have learned that we, the customer/community won’t do anything because we don’t want to hurt the remaining staff. They know that after a few weeks the outrage will die out and things will return to normal.
We have to say, “no more.” We have to say “here, but no further.” It’s time that Paizo was taught a lesson that many other companies have already learned. Maybe things will change, maybe they won’t, but if we do nothing, we know neither will they.
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I am an 11 year subscriber. Like others, I am waiting to see Paizo's response before making a decision on my patronage. That said, there MUST be a response, and it needs to include meaningful change.
I wish I could tell you what that looks like, but I am very prepared to direct my money elsewhere.
I'd like to say thank you to all of the creatives, developers, editors, and customer service people for being shining examples of "rightness."
I hope this situation brings about real change for you and your work environment.
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Those creative minds are recognized as some of the best in the industry. They are highly sought after and will be okay in the long run.
This industry is so small and has so little money that the best and brightest minds have frequently ended up jobless for months or years because they refused to give up on the jobs they love and to switch careers.
It's been a plight of multiple ex-Paizo people. Basically, unless you're lucky to land a permanent gig at WotC, you're out of luck if you want to work in TTRPGs. Most other companies are 1d6 permanent people + freelancers, hire once in a blue moon, and usually hire folks they already know.
It's gotten a bit better now that the industry has grown exponentially over the last 5 years, but it's still an industry that makes NGOs or academia look like treasure islands of stability, and that's not a good look.
This is also one major reason why I would prefer Paizo to fix their house and keep all those fantastic people doing what they love.
Those creative minds are recognized as some of the best in the industry. They are highly sought after and will be okay in the long run.This industry is so small and has so little money that the best and brightest minds have frequently ended up jobless for months or years because they refused to give up on the jobs they love and to switch careers.
It's been a plight of multiple ex-Paizo people. Basically, unless you're lucky to land a permanent gig at WotC, you're out of luck if you want to work in TTRPGs. Most other companies are 1d6 permanent people + freelancers, hire once in a blue moon, and usually hire folks they already know.
This is also one major reason why I would prefer Paizo to fix their house and keep all those fantastic people doing what they love.
100%
Exactly why I'm not immediately jamming my finger on the cancel button.
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To the "but Jessica" crowd: Put Jessica Price aside for a moment; fairly or not, her history clearly makes her a distraction.
Firing Sara Marie is suspect by itself, but when others from CS feel the need to *quit in protest*, something is very clearly not right.
Yes, we should give Paizo a chance to respond, but short of illegal conduct on Sara's part, I'll have a hard time seeing this sequence of events as the result of something other than bad management.
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Paizo is the new Blizzard! Congratulations.This is really disrespectful to what people at activision blizzard have suffered and why the court casehas revealed.
It may be the case at Paizo, but we don't have evidence of that yet even in JP's incredibly biased and in many places intentionally misleading rant.
Also out of the woodwork to double up on this statement.
There is a vast difference between bad decisions that happen every day at every company in the world and the literal hell of Activision/Blizzard that required court involvement.
Good people are fired all the time for dumb reasons. Sara Marie was beloved, and it's pretty clear everyone here knows why. She was good at her job and every issue I had her deal with was dealt with appropriately. From that viewpoint I personally think this was dumb, but I also don't have any of the facts at hand other than a whole lot of airing of dirty laundry tweets from somebody with a personal agenda I absolutely don't respect (and a handful of less vitriolic tweets from the people I do respect).
Companies make terrible decisions all the time, and if one thinks that this is somehow "unusual", they really need to look around. But one thing is for sure, it's yet at the scale and scope of Activision/Blizzard. I don't have any subscriptions left to cancel, and I'm interested to see where this goes, but I'm not ready to pull out the torches and pitchforks yet.
Paizo is the new Blizzard! Congratulations.This is really disrespectful to what people at activision blizzard have suffered and why the court casehas revealed.
It may be the case at Paizo, but we don't have evidence of that yet even in JP's incredibly biased and in many places intentionally misleading rant.
Also out of the woodwork to double up on this statement.
There is a vast difference between bad decisions that happen every day at every company in the world and the literal hell of Activision/Blizzard that required court involvement.
Good people are fired all the time for dumb reasons. Sara Marie was beloved, and it's pretty clear everyone here knows why. She was good at her job and every issue I had her deal with was dealt with appropriately. From that viewpoint I personally think this was dumb, but I also don't have any of the facts at hand other than a whole lot of airing of dirty laundry tweets from somebody with a personal agenda I absolutely don't respect (and a handful of less vitriolic tweets from the people I do respect).
Companies make terrible decisions all the time, and if one thinks that this is somehow "unusual", they really need to look around. But one thing is for sure, it's yet at the scale and scope of Activision/Blizzard. I don't have any subscriptions left to cancel, and I'm interested to see where this goes, but I'm not ready to pull out the torches and pitchforks yet.
I see your response, and it mainly *rightly* focus's on the firing of Sara Marie. But the person you are quoting is talking about the larger issue that Jessica Price and other former employees have described on social media....
Which, if it is true, is extremely problematic and what they are referencing... Just making sure your response was encompassing that as well? Because some of those stories were corroborated back and forth.
I agree comparing anything to the Blizzard situation is click bait and dumb. This situation in and of itself should be taken in as its own situation.
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This industry is so small and has so little money that the best and brightest minds have frequently ended up jobless for months or years because they refused to give up on the jobs they love and to switch careers.
Certainly people must do what they believe is the right thing, but just remember, Paizo knows this is the pervasive view of the community and they are banking on that to save them from any meaningful unpleasantness so they can continue to do what they have always done.
In an idea world, those doing the "badness" would be replaced, however, stop to consider for a moment that those people are in place because that who the owners want. They have cultivated this environment. I just think its a little wishful thinking to expect top management to turn over and their replacements to be any better/different than what is already in place given the owners.
Just stop to think of all the people who have left Paizo either because they were fired, or because they decided to bail because they just couldn't do it anymore. Its an incredibly long and very distinguished list. And virtually nothing at Paizo's top level has changed in all that time.
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We do know that the firing was the culmination of about three weeks of things getting steadily worse. We don't know the exact details and probably never will, but this didn't come out of nowhere.
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Which, if it is true, is extremely problematic and what they are referencing... Just making sure your response was encompassing that as well? Because some of those stories were corroborated back and forth.I did, thank you for your concern.
Wasn't really concern, just wanted to know if I agreed with ya or not. In which case I don't in the grand scheme but that is on me and not you. More than one stance on the situation when it comes to a toxic work environment.
What I take into account is that the 2 employees that quit in solidarity speak volumes to me. I have worked in toxic work environments. For extended periods. If someone is willing to walk out instead of keeping their head down and try not to risk losing their sole income then I have to see that as the larger picture.
Fact that Diego and Lu walked is what speaks to me more than what Jessica put out on social media. But because they did walk out? Gives a lot more credence to the complaints coming out of the woodwork from more than just one disgruntled ex employee.
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Fact that Diego and Lu walked is what speaks to me more than what Jessica put out on social media. But because they did walk out? Gives a lot more credence to the complaints coming out of the woodwork from more than just one disgruntled ex employee.
Speculation, but the only thing this signifies is they disagreed with the reasons for her termination. Nothing more.
Just stop to think of all the people who have left Paizo
Yes, there are probably more ex-Paizo stars at this point than current Paizo staff stars... No offense to the current Paizo stars! And some of them with director/manager titles too so I could imagine them coalescing into Paizo 2.0 if they all wished it. However, looks like a good portion of them works for/contributes to WotC now. Maybe the history cycle is over and WotC is now the new hot company again?
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Fact that Diego and Lu walked is what speaks to me more than what Jessica put out on social media. But because they did walk out? Gives a lot more credence to the complaints coming out of the woodwork from more than just one disgruntled ex employee.Speculation, but the only thing this signifies is they disagreed with the reasons for her termination. Nothing more.
Conjecture, but absolutely agree. Which is why I put that in the form of an opinion. 'speaks to me'
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We do know that the firing was the culmination of about three weeks of things getting steadily worse. We don't know the exact details and probably never will, but this didn't come out of nowhere.
What things were getting steadily worse, specifically? I ask because many posters here on the forums started seeing threads like this one and needed to ask what was going on because they had heard nothing and thought things were fine.
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We do know that the firing was the culmination of about three weeks of things getting steadily worse. We don't know the exact details and probably never will, but this didn't come out of nowhere.What things were getting steadily worse, specifically? I ask because many posters here on the forums started seeing threads like this one and needed to ask what was going on because they had heard nothing and thought things were fine.
Community rule is not to talk specifically about Paizo employees, while others here may be naming names I won't.
Something definitely changed in the last few weeks.
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To the "but Jessica" crowd: Put Jessica Price aside for a moment; fairly or not, her history clearly makes her a distraction.
Firing Sara Marie is suspect by itself, but when others from CS feel the need to *quit in protest*, something is very clearly not right.
Yes, we should give Paizo a chance to respond, but short of illegal conduct on Sara's part, I'll have a hard time seeing this sequence of events as the result of something other than bad management.
Jesus. Old home week.
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Solidarity to the workers who are under some pretty toxic management; I wish them luck with organizing if it takes that direction, which is something this industry is in dire need of.
The Agents of Edgewatch/George Floyd response - and by that I mean a fairly nonspecific “we’ll do better” - will not fly here, Paizo. It’s gonna be damn hard to care about your Gen Con panels with this looming overhead. Here’s hoping for swift, thorough action on this.
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Jesus. Old home week.To the "but Jessica" crowd: Put Jessica Price aside for a moment; fairly or not, her history clearly makes her a distraction.
Firing Sara Marie is suspect by itself, but when others from CS feel the need to *quit in protest*, something is very clearly not right.
Yes, we should give Paizo a chance to respond, but short of illegal conduct on Sara's part, I'll have a hard time seeing this sequence of events as the result of something other than bad management.
git off my lawn
Community rule is not to talk specifically about Paizo employees, while others here may be naming names I won't.
Something definitely changed in the last few weeks.
Sure, but it was stated as something that was known.
I would PM you the thing that happened but you do not have those enabled.Sure, but it was stated as something that was known.Community rule is not to talk specifically about Paizo employees, while others here may be naming names I won't.
Something definitely changed in the last few weeks.
Same, which is why I vague responded.
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After all that I've read, I think I'm going to stop buying Paizo products both online and in store. I don't like the excuse of continuing to give Paizo money so that creatives, developers, warehouse, customer service, etc. can keep their jobs. That line of thinking to me makes it look like the consumer is the bad guy if we don't keep buying. I think instead I might divert that money to the above's Patreon or whatever platforms they use to help support them. The onus should be on Paizo leadership to fix the issues that are prevalent.
Please treat your employees with professional respect. They are adults and not children. Please do not harass or make an employees life miserable. You will chase away good talent and make the company suffer. If they have to work overtime, please give them a bonus for meeting a deadline. Please give your employees higher and equal pay so that they don't have to constantly do side hustles to keep afloat. If you have to up the price of your products to accommodate that, make it happen. I will gladly pay a higher price for your products just for that. And lastly, please be a industry leader in inclusiveness. Keep pushing the envelope and nurture and support creatives, developers, etc. in promoting inclusiveness. This is a hobby for everyone.
If all the above is met, I will gladly support you.
That's strange, I made no change to my PM settings and the last one I received was last Wednesday. Fixed now.
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I am curious about what happened in these weeks as well.
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Worth saying that I’m stopping my financial support until we see clear steps taken by management.
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I am curious too!
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Jesus. Old home week.
Did...did you just say I live in an old folk's home? I mean, I probably should, but that's beside the point... ;-)
Seriously, though: In my experience Sara Marie has been absolutely amazing in what I expect is a very thankless, difficult job even in the best of times (which these ain't). Firing her reeks of managerial cowardice and incompetence. As much as I'd like to be proven wrong, I'm not holding my breath.
We do know that the firing was the culmination of about three weeks of things getting steadily worse. We don't know the exact details and probably never will, but this didn't come out of nowhere.What things were getting steadily worse, specifically? I ask because many posters here on the forums started seeing threads like this one and needed to ask what was going on because they had heard nothing and thought things were fine.
I wish I had an answer. I know it was strictly an internal matter, and I only know that because Diego said so on Twitter after he quit. It sounds like some other posters might have a greater insight. If so, I'd like to know as well.
I'd be interested to know as well.
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I'd like to be informed as well.
Conjecture, but absolutely agree. Which is why I put that in the form of an opinion. 'speaks to me'Fact that Diego and Lu walked is what speaks to me more than what Jessica put out on social media. But because they did walk out? Gives a lot more credence to the complaints coming out of the woodwork from more than just one disgruntled ex employee.Speculation, but the only thing this signifies is they disagreed with the reasons for her termination. Nothing more.
I'll also note that as far as I can tell, only Crystal has corroborated any of the larger thread, and only a very small part of it, whereas Mark Moreland (and technically Logan Bonner, by like proxy) said this in response.
I 100% expect there to have been management messups, especially in relation to Sara Marie. That's something that can be fixed.
What I'm more worried about is the other problems described, which if true, would pervade quite a bit more than just the exec side.
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We do know that the firing was the culmination of about three weeks of things getting steadily worse. We don't know the exact details and probably never will, but this didn't come out of nowhere.
It is interesting to note the "coincidental" timing of Sara Marie's firing and the promotion of Tonya to Director of Community, supervising the customer service department a couple of weeks prior.
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I'd like to be informed as well.
Conjecture, but absolutely agree. Which is why I put that in the form of an opinion. 'speaks to me'Fact that Diego and Lu walked is what speaks to me more than what Jessica put out on social media. But because they did walk out? Gives a lot more credence to the complaints coming out of the woodwork from more than just one disgruntled ex employee.Speculation, but the only thing this signifies is they disagreed with the reasons for her termination. Nothing more.I'll also note that as far as I can tell, only Crystal has corroborated any of the larger thread, and only a very small part of it, whereas Mark Moreland (and technically Logan Bonner, by like proxy) said this in response.
I 100% expect there to have been management messups, especially in relation to Sara Marie. That's something that can be fixed.
What I'm more worried about is the other problems described, which if true, would pervade quite a bit more than just the exec side.
Crystal, Lissa, Lu, Diego have all spoken on specific things. Just because Mark or Logan haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
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What things were getting steadily worse, specifically? I ask because many posters here on the forums started seeing threads like this one and needed to ask what was going on because they had heard nothing and thought things were fine.
One of the problems is the pervasive attitude of some community members who seem to pray at a Paizo alter and violently oppose anything that would be construed as criticism of the company. They shout down and bury any attempt to question the purity of their beloved Paizo. There are a lot of people who cannot separate the creative side of Paizo from their business side. Not to mention the use of the delete key by the moderators to scrub unflattering posts under the guise of forum violations. I don't think you'll find many people, anywhere really, that would have negative things to say about the creativity of the products. However, there a significant, and ever growing community of people who have little to nothing good to say about Paizo's management.
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Mark Moreland (and technically Logan Bonner, by like proxy) said this in responseMan says "I never saw the problems", so they never happened.
Really?
That's not the same thing.
And in my experience, if you are an ethical and forthright person, a lot of the shady stuff and abuse will always be hearsay because people won't do it around you.
Even as hearsay, if you're in a leadership position a lot of people won't tell you because they'll assume you know and are complicit or they just don't know you well enough because they don't work with you directly.
It can be a tough spot.
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Adding my voice, for what little it's worth.
I love the creative work that Paizo put out. 2e is my preferred ruleset. The inclusivity and representation I see in the world and adventures is what drew me in and keeps me here. I will not cancel my subscription as I want to continue supporting the creative work of the team.
I do not support the low pay and mistreatment of these excellent creatives by senior management that came to light this week. As a member of the LGBT+ community, the language reportedly used by the CEO to refer to us shocked and appalled me.
It's clear things need to change. I will follow the creative talent wherever they go - they are irreplaceable. Management are not.
Crystal, Lissa, Lu, Diego have all spoken on specific things. Just because Mark or Logan haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.I'd like to be informed as well.
Conjecture, but absolutely agree. Which is why I put that in the form of an opinion. 'speaks to me'Fact that Diego and Lu walked is what speaks to me more than what Jessica put out on social media. But because they did walk out? Gives a lot more credence to the complaints coming out of the woodwork from more than just one disgruntled ex employee.Speculation, but the only thing this signifies is they disagreed with the reasons for her termination. Nothing more.I'll also note that as far as I can tell, only Crystal has corroborated any of the larger thread, and only a very small part of it, whereas Mark Moreland (and technically Logan Bonner, by like proxy) said this in response.
I 100% expect there to have been management messups, especially in relation to Sara Marie. That's something that can be fixed.
What I'm more worried about is the other problems described, which if true, would pervade quite a bit more than just the exec side.
I'd assume if top management were routinely bullying employees out of the company and putting them in the hospital, for instance, that this would be something that would be noticed by high-level employees of 11 years experience. Or prominently displaying Nazi-adjacent imagery above their desks, explicitly design-milking mental illnesses, etc.
Like, if you're there for 11 years, and these problems are that much in the forefront, I'd probably expect that you'd notice.
(Things I wouldn't necessarily expect to be noticed: trans women rooming accommodations, targeted sexual harassment, etc)
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One of the problems is the pervasive attitude of some community members who seem to pray at a Paizo alter and violently oppose anything that would be construed as criticism of the company. They shout down and bury any attempt to question the purity of their beloved Paizo. There are a lot of people who cannot separate the creative side of Paizo from their business side. Not to mention the use of the delete key by the moderators to scrub unflattering posts under the guise of forum violations. I don't think you'll find many people, anywhere really, that would have negative things to say about the creativity of the products. However, there a significant, and ever growing community of people who have little to nothing good to say about Paizo's management.
I don't think thats what the other poster was referring to, as Sara Marie was still moderating forums herself throughout that period.
I also think we need to be real careful about accusing people of violently opposing criticism of the company as we're in an online forum that has thus far generated no violence.
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One of the problems is the pervasive attitude of some community members who seem to pray at a Paizo alter and violently oppose anything that would be construed as criticism of the company. They shout down and bury any attempt to question the purity of their beloved Paizo. There are a lot of people who cannot separate the creative side of Paizo from their business side. Not to mention the use of the delete key by the moderators to scrub unflattering posts under the guise of forum violations. I don't think you'll find many people, anywhere really, that would have negative things to say about the creativity of the products. However, there a significant, and ever growing community of people who have little to nothing good to say about Paizo's management.I don't think that's what the other poster was referring to, as Sara Marie was still moderating forums herself throughout that period.
I also think we need to be real careful about accusing people of violently opposing criticism of the company as we're in an online forum that has thus far generated no violence.
Eehhhhh.... it's happened; just not recently.
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Like, if you're there for 11 years, and these problems are that much in the forefront, I'd probably expect that you'd notice.
Let's also not forget that Mark has been there from the literal ground up. He may be "management" now, but has not always been management. I trust Mark's opinion an awful lot, and his comments go a long way towards my personal decision to take a watchful waiting stance vs. the "burn the whole place to the ground" stance.
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Mark Moreland (and technically Logan Bonner, by like proxy) said this in responseMan says "I never saw the problems", so they never happened.
Really?
That statement feels like privilege or incompetence. There are reasons why it might not be, but wow is that not the right thing to say when several people start talking about the problems they faced.