Let me make this clear


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I can't speak for Rysky, but I believe that many of us here are looking out for the employees first. I haven't seen anyone looking for Paizo to fall and I know for a fact that I play (and shall continue to play) several games with these forum-goers. But it if our money goes towards causes that we don't agree with (particularly for me are the accusations of how trans employees are treated), we would understandably be upset.

We'd like answers so that we can justify supporting Paizo in the future. I think everyone is aware that those answers will take time, but also remaining silent makes it that much easier for bad behavior to be swept away and forgotten.


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TwilightKnight wrote:

Generally speaking, a union is not going to stop something like the firing of Sara Marie. Most union/contractor relationships are completely discretionary. Meaning the worker can walk off the job for any or no reason and the union can put them right back to work the next day with another contractor. No questions asked. OTOH, the contractor can send a worker away for zero cause and have the union send someone else in their stead.

Of course if this happens to any meaningful degree, one side or the other is going to cry foul. The contractor could just not renew their contract with the union. And the union could strike or "conveniently" not have any workers available for the contractor when needed.

The primary role of the union is simply to create a framework by which the workers, represented by a few elected officials can bargain on equal ground for benefit and conditions with the company who also appoints a few officials to speak for them. Both sides have to negotiate in good faith or both sides will suffer. Maybe not immediately, but in the long run.

I suppose both sides could agree to a no-separation without cause clause, but those can often hurt the employee as much as the company so few agree to such things.

This is all just from the perspective of the US. I have not studied nor participated in any European, African, or Asian unions so I don't know how closely (or different) the US model matches the others. I strongly support unions, but its hard to discuss them because there is so much misinformation and unsubstantiated bias on both sides that it usually devolves into a street fight.

That sounds like an employment agency rather than a Union, interesting.


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Paulyhedron wrote:

Thank for kind words, pulling through.

Boredom, boredom made me do it.
Not really (ok a little during my normal work week I wouldn’t even have known about this tbh)
Story time:
I’ve been in a company where people got riled up over and unjust firing, we ended up just working 2 short everyone doing more because of the clamor. It made our, the people still there jobs much harder. Granted this wasn’t an office job but we all weren’t happy and certainly weren’t happy when we raised our voices and management was like ok, and didn’t fill the position for a month. Paycheck was a little fatter but living at your job and no quality of life during sucked.
So that’s where my stfu attitude comes from.

Still a customer though

Yeah, agree that you are an anomaly.

I will just say this. Paizo's product caters to a certain section of the community that are avid advocates for many causes. It should not be a surprise that when an injustice occurs in plain sight that their customers become extremely vocal about it.

Attacking them for it, telling them they are clutching pearls, isn't helping the situation. It is embedding yourself into the narrative, so feel free not to play the noble better than though card and expect the people you are talking down to to not respond in kind.


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Even if it's a bit late I want to chime in saying that the diverse, colorful and inclusive things are exactly what keeps me supporting Pathfinder. Just in case someone at management gets to see this thread and needs some hints that this direction is good.


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It’s not being an anomaly unless your either the owner, a shareholders or Paizo is a publicly traded company all we can do is ask and request changes be made. With Paizo under no obligation to really change or improve anything. It seems posters confuse online vs real world reality.

Online anyone and everyone can demands and expect companies to cater to their whims. In the real world where I and most actual live it’s the opposite. You are a customer all you can do is ask. Not threaten, nor demand nor force them to do anything. Not unless one meets all or some of the criteria in the first paragraph.

Now if they can and do improve things and hire back some of the people they let go I will be happy. If you think your going threaten, force or do the internet equivalent of slamming one fists on Paizo front door and go “ YOU BETTER LISTEN TO ME PAIZO OR ELSE”. Come down to reality because it’s not happening.

I’m sure people will still complain myself and other who feel that way are “ anomalies “ since they can’t really refute how companies work in the real world and not the Internet..

Try going up to your boss and act the same and see why your fired. Or wonder why the landlord evicts you from your apartment because you demand go pay less rent for no other reason because you think you should.

I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears and be ignored because too may here seems to want to live on the Internet instead of the real world.


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Particular Jones wrote:

It’s not being an anomaly unless your either the owner, a shareholders or Paizo is a publicly traded company all we can do is ask and request changes be made. With Paizo under no obligation to really change or improve anything. It seems posters confuse online vs real world reality.

Online anyone and everyone can demands and expect companies to cater to their whims. In the real world where I and most actual live it’s the opposite. You are a customer all you can do is ask. Not threaten, nor demand nor force them to do anything. Not unless one meets all or some of the criteria in the first paragraph.

Now if they can and do improve things and hire back some of the people they let go I will be happy. If you think your going threaten, force or do the internet equivalent of slamming one fists on Paizo front door and go “ YOU BETTER LISTEN TO ME PAIZO OR ELSE”. Come down to reality because it’s not happening.

I’m sure people will still complain myself and other who feel that way are “ anomalies “ since they can’t really refute how companies work in the real world and not the Internet..

Try going up to your boss and act the same and see why your fired. Or wonder why the landlord evicts you from your apartment because you demand go pay less rent for no other reason because you think you should.

I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears and be ignored because too may here seems to want to live on the Internet instead of the real world.

There's a difference here. And I feel you know it.

Positioning this in the way you do is an either or scenario. Either you understand your efforts are useless because you have no power. Or you don't understand your efforts are useless because you have no power and refuse to realize it.

It's just not the case. It is way more nuanced. Telling someone that they have no power to change is exactly what the people abusing the power they have want.

If you have a voice, and you are in a safe enough position to comfortably use it, you always should. If you are not in that position then weigh the benefits. If you can't speak up for yourself then chances are you are constantly wishing someone would for you.

This is that third scenario, where people cant speak up for themselves. It is likely Sara Marie was their vocal advocate. They have lost that. Now you have people in the community who are safe enough and comfortable enough to use their voice for the people who don't have the power or safety to speak up for themselves.

This is called advocacy. Saying that there is no power isn't true. There is power. Is it enough to effect change? Time will tell. If there isn't change then will some people change their metaphorical landlord? The increase in subscription cancellations sorta points to yes on that one.


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Particular Jones wrote:

It’s not being an anomaly unless your either the owner, a shareholders or Paizo is a publicly traded company all we can do is ask and request changes be made. With Paizo under no obligation to really change or improve anything. It seems posters confuse online vs real world reality.

Online anyone and everyone can demands and expect companies to cater to their whims. In the real world where I and most actual live it’s the opposite. You are a customer all you can do is ask. Not threaten, nor demand nor force them to do anything. Not unless one meets all or some of the criteria in the first paragraph.

Now if they can and do improve things and hire back some of the people they let go I will be happy. If you think your going threaten, force or do the internet equivalent of slamming one fists on Paizo front door and go “ YOU BETTER LISTEN TO ME PAIZO OR ELSE”. Come down to reality because it’s not happening.

I’m sure people will still complain myself and other who feel that way are “ anomalies “ since they can’t really refute how companies work in the real world and not the Internet..

Try going up to your boss and act the same and see why your fired. Or wonder why the landlord evicts you from your apartment because you demand go pay less rent for no other reason because you think you should.

I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears and be ignored because too may here seems to want to live on the Internet instead of the real world.

Please do not conflate or even imply that a customer buying a product from a company is the same thing as an employee/boss or tenant/landlord relationship. This isn't Shadowrun just yet. Moreover neither your boss nor landlord can just do whatever they please, the employee/ tenant has rights and can take the other party to task for their failings.


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Particular Jones wrote:

It’s not being an anomaly unless your either the owner, a shareholders or Paizo is a publicly traded company all we can do is ask and request changes be made. With Paizo under no obligation to really change or improve anything. It seems posters confuse online vs real world reality.

Online anyone and everyone can demands and expect companies to cater to their whims. In the real world where I and most actual live it’s the opposite. You are a customer all you can do is ask. Not threaten, nor demand nor force them to do anything. Not unless one meets all or some of the criteria in the first paragraph.

Now if they can and do improve things and hire back some of the people they let go I will be happy. If you think your going threaten, force or do the internet equivalent of slamming one fists on Paizo front door and go “ YOU BETTER LISTEN TO ME PAIZO OR ELSE”. Come down to reality because it’s not happening.

I’m sure people will still complain myself and other who feel that way are “ anomalies “ since they can’t really refute how companies work in the real world and not the Internet..

Try going up to your boss and act the same and see why your fired. Or wonder why the landlord evicts you from your apartment because you demand go pay less rent for no other reason because you think you should.

I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears and be ignored because too may here seems to want to live on the Internet instead of the real world.

I don't even understand what you mean or probably more accurately what you think other people mean.

How do the boss/landlord analogies work? Is Paizo going to fire us as customers? Stop letting us buy their products?

You're absolutely right that Paizo doesn't have to listen. They're under no obligation to do anything. Everyone knows that.
On the other hand, we have no obligation to keep buying their stuff either and Paizo needs customers, even more than we need Paizo. Not every post explicitly states it, but many do. The obvious threat that backs up the demands is the loss of sales. That's a very practical reality, especially given that Paizo has long had a reputation for being a diverse, inclusive and welcoming company and has certainly gained customers based on that.

Will that pressure be enough to make them change? Will this just quickly blow over with little effect on the company? I don't know. The idea that the uproar is just internet idiots demanding things and not understanding the real world is simply not true. We're on the Internet talking about it, but real world consequences follow from that. Cancelled subscriptions are a real thing. We don't know if that's widespread enough to matter or not, but it's just as real as a boycott in the physical world. Some of which succeed and some fail.


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Well the way some have phrased it here imo it comes off as Paizo is in some kind of obligation to listen and implement change.

Note I am saying they should and when some here get told otherwise they act and talk as if they work for the company or some kind of majority stockholder.

Loss in sales only pushes change when it equals loss in profit. Unless the cancelled subscriptions hurt them financially nothing is going to change. Even then they don’t have to change anything if they don’t want to fo so. Imo they should yet Liss could just get fed up and walk away and either hold on to the IP or sell it to a company less inclusive and diverse.

As for advocacy it’s a great concept still beholden to capitalism, If a company still makes money even after ignoring any and all requests through advocacy well I respect the effort it’s still not going to do much if it does not hurt the company financially and nothing will change.

They could hire Sara back if they want and under no obligation to give her any kind of raise or reward. I think they should yet in the real world you get hired back after being laid off with no additional reward or benefit. I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.


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Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.

You are only worth what you negotiate.

Acquisitives

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Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.

Tell that to the livable wage crowd.


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Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.
Tell that to the livable wage crowd.

If a job is worth hiring for, it is worth paying a livable wage. If you can't afford to do business in the market environment you are breaking into without paying your employees enough to live in the area? Then you should re evaluate your expectations.

/shrug

They weren't talking about a livable wage.


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It’s all to easy to tell an employer to reevaluate their expectations. Except in the real world they can just tell you point blank “ no snd if you don’t like what I am paying you feel free to leave at anytime”. With someone ready to take the job if the employee does leave. It is what makes Capitalism both a blessing and a curse imo.

Some here act like employees seem to have unlimited rights and bargaining power. We have limited forms of both because the employer is free to listen and ignore any and all requests and demands. Unions help to be sure and then suddenly the store or location gets shut down due to suddenly” not making enough money.”.

Unions work yet only if the employer does not match what the non-unionized employees receive vs those who are. I worked in two places where the owed of the unions was broken because everything the unionized employees received everyone else did as well do no reason to join it.


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In the real world employees do. Sadly they have been conditioned to believe they don't.

Every work revolution that has happened had a catalyst and then people banded together.

But you are right, day to day life the cogs are mostly powerless. Which is why people who have the ability and safety to speak up for the powerless should when they can.


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Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.
Tell that to the livable wage crowd.

They heard that and are bringing that sentiment up in the workplace on a regular basis. And according to the searching I do on glass door, monster and other websites looking for a new job, outside of it as well.

Acquisitives

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Yoshua wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.
Tell that to the livable wage crowd.

If a job is worth hiring for, it is worth paying a livable wage. If you can't afford to do business in the market environment you are breaking into without paying your employees enough to live in the area? Then you should re evaluate your expectations.

/shrug

They weren't talking about a livable wage.

It's in the hashtag thing on twitter everyone thinks is activism. Incorrect of course if a job pays x amount and you take the job, then thats on you. If their wages aren't up to snuff then go elsewhere. It is not their job to provide a livable wage, its your job to figure out if that wage livable to you.

Example me: I could make a lot more going elsewhere (hiring bonus, and considering our wages are the same as they were from 2017 (I started in 2019), but everyone else is bumping up because this industry is dying for people) , but I live fairly comfortably and while I don't like my company much for reasons, they've not really done anything egregious and I frankly hate changing gigs.
Though anytime I get asked to come in on my day off, I ask for a raise, and when they say no, I say no.

Acquisitives

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Freehold DM wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.
Tell that to the livable wage crowd.
They heard that and are bringing that sentiment up in the workplace on a regular basis. And according to the searching I do on glass door, monster and other websites looking for a new job, outside of it as well.

Good on them. They should. Hell it's what I would do (and do constantly). I just get irritated at people online demanding this and that when they don't work there.


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Paulyhedron wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.
Tell that to the livable wage crowd.

If a job is worth hiring for, it is worth paying a livable wage. If you can't afford to do business in the market environment you are breaking into without paying your employees enough to live in the area? Then you should re evaluate your expectations.

/shrug

They weren't talking about a livable wage.

It's in the hashtag thing on twitter everyone thinks is activism. Incorrect of course if a job pays x amount and you take the job, then thats on you. If their wages aren't up to snuff then go elsewhere. It is not their job to provide a livable wage, its your job to figure out if that wage livable to you.

Example me: I could make a lot more going elsewhere (hiring bonus, and considering our wages are the same as they were from 2017 (I started in 2019), but everyone else is bumping up because this industry is dying for people) , but I live fairly comfortably and while I don't like my company much for reasons, they've not really done anything egregious and I frankly hate changing gigs.
Though anytime I get asked to come in on my day off, I ask for a raise, and when they say no, I say no.

Nothing you say, I disagree with there in spirit.

I do disagree that base level incomes mandated by minimum wage should be a livable wage. Not a thriving wage, but enough to put a roof over a persons head and food on the table. Without regulation though that won't keep up with inflation which is, in my opinion, arbitrary and market driven.

It's no secret that the top of the food chain when it comes to the economy is bloated and it will break eventually. That is what happens in capitalist societies.


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Particular Jones wrote:

It’s all to easy to tell an employer to reevaluate their expectations. Except in the real world they can just tell you point blank “ no snd if you don’t like what I am paying you feel free to leave at anytime”. With someone ready to take the job if the employee does leave. It is what makes Capitalism both a blessing and a curse imo.

Some here act like employees seem to have unlimited rights and bargaining power. We have limited forms of both because the employer is free to listen and ignore any and all requests and demands. Unions help to be sure and then suddenly the store or location gets shut down due to suddenly” not making enough money.”.

Unions work yet only if the employer does not match what the non-unionized employees receive vs those who are. I worked in two places where the owed of the unions was broken because everything the unionized employees received everyone else did as well do no reason to join it.

Some on the other hand act like employers have unlimited rights and bargaining power. Employers definitely have an advantage, but it's not an unlimited one.

Workers have more power when they unite than separately, bringing them at least closer to employer's power. Even without that, you can see employee power sometimes. My job is currently going through a period where a bunch of senior employees have left/are leaving at least partly due to paying well below market rate as the job market improves. They've had to respond with a significant raise and some working condition improvements for those who've stayed, for fear of losing more workers, more tribal knowledge and not being able to keep up with the work they need done.

As you say, companies can break unions by pretending that the unions aren't helping employees - this is partly due to crappy US labor laws. Often that leads to conditions going downhill after the union goes away.

Liberty's Edge

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Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread


Anorak wrote:
Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread

For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread
For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?

Paraphrasing he is giving support to voices and praises Paizo for being a force of good for the ttRPG community. Admits its flaws, lots of them, and admits he wishes he could have done more while he had the power to do so. I assume that means when he worked for Paizo.

It is a good post. Really good post. But has nothing to do with Sara Marie or Diego. Which by the time I got to the end of the near 30 tweets left me a bit sad as that is what the current hot topic should be.

Like I said. Shy of 30 tweets. No way to sum up all of what he said in a quick post.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread
For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?

For such folks, I also have the whole thing here.

I consider Lissa Guillet's statement far more important than mine, but to the best of my knowledge it is only available on Facebook, here.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:


For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?

Can't everyone view birdsite posts named after noises that are public?


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dirtypool wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:


For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?
Can't everyone view birdsite posts named after noises that are public?

It's an issue specific to myself. PTSD closely related to the site.


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Yoshua wrote:
It is a good post. Really good post. But has nothing to do with Sara Marie or Diego. Which by the time I got to the end of the near 30 tweets left me a bit sad as that is what the current hot topic should be.

I have amplified what Sara Marie and Diego have had to say as I could, which isn't much tbh.

I am firmly in their corner, but lack any specific knowledge that would allow me to make a call for specific action.

If either of them wants any help or amplification from me at all, I have told both they have my unwavering support.


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dirtypool wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:


For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?
Can't everyone view birdsite posts named after noises that are public?

The only thing that has ever prevented me from seeing such posts without logging in has been using an unsupported browser such as Internet Explorer. Some people on that site do prevent people from seeing their tweets without being logged in, but Owen definitely did not do that.


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Owen KC Stephens wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
It is a good post. Really good post. But has nothing to do with Sara Marie or Diego. Which by the time I got to the end of the near 30 tweets left me a bit sad as that is what the current hot topic should be.

I have amplified what Sara Marie and Diego have had to say as I could, which isn't much tbh.

I am firmly in their corner, but lack any specific knowledge that would allow me to make a call for specific action.

If either of them wants any help or amplification from me at all, I have told both they have my unwavering support.

Yeah, I get that. And I respect the post for what it was. Good work and I am grateful.

I am in the frustrated corner right now that Paizo is "at" GenCon and any follow up will likely be stalled until after. Just hoping that the flames don't die down before then so that they feel they can just walk away from the situation without having to address it.

Thanks again for making the post. Amplifying voices is extremely important and you did it eloquently.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:


It's an issue specific to myself. PTSD closely related to the site.

Understood. I thought you were speaking technologically, I hadn't considered the personal/emotional reasons why one might not be able to go and read stuff there.


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Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Particular Jones wrote:
I was fired and then hired again because the person who took my place made a mess of things after they let me go. If I tried to ask for more or worse some kind of compensation for being let go they would have laughed in my face.
You are only worth what you negotiate.
Tell that to the livable wage crowd.
They heard that and are bringing that sentiment up in the workplace on a regular basis. And according to the searching I do on glass door, monster and other websites looking for a new job, outside of it as well.
Good on them. They should. Hell it's what I would do (and do constantly). I just get irritated at people online demanding this and that when they don't work there.

Part of the reason why we have weekends off, holidays off, paid overtime and other such things isn't solely because of unions fighting for the middle/working class. It's because people found out that those things were an option through open discussion with other people who were working in other places and left to find employment that offered those benefits. Other companies moved to keep up with those options when they noticed they were losing employees and in time they became commonplace across multiple industries.

In short, if you don't know you have an option, then you don't have it.


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When we speak of management who do we speak of? Erik, Jeff, who else is considered management?

Liberty's Edge

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Talk about messy and interesting. I know people don;t like complicated but that is what this is. Complex and with a lot of people involved, who to me, need to apologize to each other, try to forgive and work to build a better community. There definitely needs to be some management training action or even full on transition.

Also we as consumers need to take in consideration how precarious companies such as Paizo are in right now. Look around. S@#& is bad everywhere, from supply shortages to staff walk outs to the neverending drama of the stubborn Pandemic.

Anyway, thank you Owen for your posts. I have followed you since you took on Star Wars at WotC. The World has changed since then, and for the hobby, for the better. You have to admit that. Look at Critical Role, Look at all the diversity, at the native voices, and so on. The Hobby looks nothing like it did in the 1990s and sure as hell doesn't look like the 80s.

I love Paizo, Golarion and the people who shed tears to make it a reality.

Here are to better days ahead, stay safe, make good decisions and damn it Management if you're reading this, do some self-reflection.Your job is to take it for the team and protect your people. All of them. Do better.


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Lissa Guillet's post, and the responses to it, give me hope for the future of Paizo.


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Link?


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Storm Dragon wrote:
Link?

Sorry, it's above in Owen KC Stephens' post.

Afraid I'm not enough of a computer guru to copy the link.


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I don’t feel comfortable monetarily supporting Paizo until the specific allegations about the treatment of trans employees are addressed.

RPG Superstar 2012

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Thomas Keller wrote:
Storm Dragon wrote:
Link?

Sorry, it's above in Owen KC Stephens' post.

Afraid I'm not enough of a computer guru to copy the link.

Link


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Owen KC Stephens wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread
For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?

For such folks, I also have the whole thing here.

I consider Lissa Guillet's statement far more important than mine, but to the best of my knowledge it is only available on Facebook, here.

Not to be That Guy, but you don't actually say anything. Sure it's well written and all but I don't get what you're saying.

Dark Archive

captain yesterday wrote:
Owen KC Stephens wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread
For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?

For such folks, I also have the whole thing here.

I consider Lissa Guillet's statement far more important than mine, but to the best of my knowledge it is only available on Facebook, here.

Not to be That Guy, but you don't actually say anything. Sure it's well written and all but I don't get what you're saying.

I can't even see what statement without signing up on facebook ^^;


captain yesterday wrote:
Owen KC Stephens wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread
For those of us that can't view birdsite, what's the contents of this?

For such folks, I also have the whole thing here.

I consider Lissa Guillet's statement far more important than mine, but to the best of my knowledge it is only available on Facebook, here.

Not to be That Guy, but you don't actually say anything. Sure it's well written and all but I don't get what you're saying.

I mean, if you're looking for specifically information regarding the Jessica things, then there's a suggestion that some of the things that she described happens, but that he feels she added certain interpretations that he believes were not originally there. He also feels that Paizo has issues, and that people should keep pushing for it to be improved (especially in the worst places that have hurt employees), but that overall it's a good company that has his support.

He also specifically noted he was not going to try and speak on specific people or topics, as he did not see everything or took it differently than those people did.

I hope I did not mischaracterize the overall tone of Owen's thread, and if I did, please correct me.


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Paulyhedron wrote:
To be truthful it's not uncaring we simply don't have a story to go on here other than feelings and those aren't facts, you may have liked the lady who was terminated, obviously several did but it still isn't your business or anyone elses from a company perspective.

Well I can tell you my story about how I was gaslit and emotionally abused by someone who Paizo supposedly knew was an issue. And I say Paizo in the amorphous context supposedly Sara Marie told someone but *shrug*. If you take Jessica Prices claim about covering up harassment and my issues I've seen it becomes downright horrifying.

Liberty's Edge

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keftiu wrote:
I don’t feel comfortable monetarily supporting Paizo until the specific allegations about the treatment of trans employees are addressed.

The allegations are meritless, have no evidence, and fundamentally cannot ever be disproven by way of the nature they are presented... you might as well just stop posting here because this is a nothing-burger and if you expect concrete info on it you're going to be left waiting just like the USA waiting for news of WMDs in Iraq.

Dark Archive

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Meritless is false on its own. Many have been addressed, showing that indeed the allegations had merit. Just because you have shut your eyes and plugged your ears does not mean everyone else has followed suit.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:


The allegations are meritless, have no evidence, and fundamentally cannot ever be disproven by way of the nature they are presented...

The allegations have merit because they were made by the employee who was directly impacted by the behavior described. Their first person testimonial is a piece of evidence.

Worse for Paizo is that many of the denials of the other charges leveled at them have been statements that acknowledge some truth to the original claim but then state it was not as bad or did not go as far as the initial accusation claimed.


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dirtypool wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:


The allegations are meritless, have no evidence, and fundamentally cannot ever be disproven by way of the nature they are presented...

The allegations have merit because they were made by the employee who was directly impacted by the behavior described. Their first person testimonial is a piece of evidence.

Worse for Paizo is that many of the denials of the other charges leveled at them have been statements that acknowledge some truth to the original claim but then state it was not as bad or did not go as far as the initial accusation claimed.

Which is particularly disturbing when many of the claims involve management not being responsive to internal complaints and not taking things seriously enough or not being sensitive enough to some issues.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I don’t feel comfortable monetarily supporting Paizo until the specific allegations about the treatment of trans employees are addressed.
The allegations are meritless, have no evidence, and fundamentally cannot ever be disproven by way of the nature they are presented... you might as well just stop posting here because this is a nothing-burger and if you expect concrete info on it you're going to be left waiting just like the USA waiting for news of WMDs in Iraq.

Do you have a habit of telling marginalized folks not to worry when they hear about mistreatment of their own by a corporation, or is this a special case?

I’m a trans woman. I will believe allegations of workplace transphobia, especially ones that have yet to be refuted.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Crystal is ethical and honest. If she says it happened, I believe her. (She also named a corroborating witness, Amanda). The accusation has merit. Reparations for that are a private matter.

Assurances that it is no longer happening and that there are formal company policies ensuring it doesn’t happen again does not have to be hush hush. The more the issue gets the silent treatment, the worse it is.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:

Crystal is ethical and honest. If she says it happened, I believe her. (She also named a corroborating witness, Amanda). The accusation has merit. Reparations for that are a private matter.

Assurances that it is no longer happening and that there are formal company policies ensuring it doesn’t happen again does not have to be hush hush. The more the issue gets the silent treatment, the worse it is.

Agreed on all counts.

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