Let me make this clear


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Well, of course the concept of something that protects the rights of workers and employees from corporations runs counter to everything American-style terminal capitalism stands for, so that's no surprise.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

By the way -- I actually am a union member. And I see my union as being on the weak side, as it supports only the workers at a subset of the plants of a single company.


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Zaister wrote:
From a European perspective, the American demonization of anything that smells even vaguely of a union is really weird. Unions are and always have been a present and important force in the post-war German workplace environment. They have been instrumental in creating and maintaining the laws that protect employees in Germany. Something like American at-will-employment — which made it possible to fire Sara Marie at a moment's notice — is just unthinkable here.

Amazing how many Americans have been convinced that the cornerstone of the American middle class is somehow a very bad thing™.

But that's propaganda for you...


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Zaister wrote:
Well, of course the concept of something that protects the rights of workers and employees from corporations runs counter to everything American-style terminal capitalism stands for, so that's no surprise.

Hey, that's "end-stage capitalism," pal.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, Bugleyman, the Union perspective here is a vs mentality, where they work against the employer to get the employee their stuff.

This comes from the old adage that those big factories was taking advantage of the common man and using them up like cannon fodder.

Most of what is needed now is the communication skills and working together with the employer and the worker to create a good working environment that benefits both parties. This is a concept that most Unions do not subscribe to or want. There only concern is more money, more vacation, and little else. There are shrewd union reps that do keep the various pieces in place to keep the work going, but mostly the overall reason for their presence has since been under regulations and workplace basic practices that they had put in place decades ago.

That type of representation is not needed for a gaming company like WotC, or Paizo. For this "small" company, it will end up rising the cost of the product, put a barrier on the overall material being produced, and bring a host of other problems Paizo simply will not need or be able to handle.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In fairness, the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947 limited the power of American unions compared to their counterparts in other nations. It was in part a reaction to the growing Cold War, because of course it was.

ETA (there were more posts, and my original update was eaten, so let's try this): I'm a union man myself, and I've seen firsthand just how much good an effective union can do. Would gaming prices go up if there was a union? Very likely. Do you want to know what that gets us? Happier, less stressed devs and staff. That gets us even more cool stuff, because they'll be less stressed and thus more creative. Happy talent is productive talent.

(I hate putting it this way, because the prime benefit of the union is always for the workers first and that is how it should be, but there are benefits for the consumer as well, and maybe for some people that's the argument that will work)


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Mmm. Been a while since I've posted here but I wanted to chime in with my unhappiness over these events. I'll toss a +1, for what it is worth, to what Rysky opened this thread with.


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Zaister wrote:
From a European perspective, the American demonization of anything that smells even vaguely of a union is really weird.

Same same from here in Australia. Unions are good. Of course, I would say that as a former trade union leader though.


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As far as Europe goes, unions are one thing, but it's also labour laws. By default in most European countries you can't fire an employee without several weeks/months of notice unless it's a severe disciplinary matter (mostly some gross violation of law), and even then such immediate-effect terminations can be challenged before labour courts which, as a principle, are cheap and fast-ish.

Most TTRPG company employees in Europe aren't unionized (companies are too small and there are no industry-wide unions for games of pretending to be an elf) but the law by itself is sound enough to prevent scenarios like Sara's "you're no longer with the company since yesterday" story.

Grand Lodge

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Generally speaking, a union is not going to stop something like the firing of Sara Marie. Most union/contractor relationships are completely discretionary. Meaning the worker can walk off the job for any or no reason and the union can put them right back to work the next day with another contractor. No questions asked. OTOH, the contractor can send a worker away for zero cause and have the union send someone else in their stead.

Of course if this happens to any meaningful degree, one side or the other is going to cry foul. The contractor could just not renew their contract with the union. And the union could strike or "conveniently" not have any workers available for the contractor when needed.

The primary role of the union is simply to create a framework by which the workers, represented by a few elected officials can bargain on equal ground for benefit and conditions with the company who also appoints a few officials to speak for them. Both sides have to negotiate in good faith or both sides will suffer. Maybe not immediately, but in the long run.

I suppose both sides could agree to a no-separation without cause clause, but those can often hurt the employee as much as the company so few agree to such things.

This is all just from the perspective of the US. I have not studied nor participated in any European, African, or Asian unions so I don't know how closely (or different) the US model matches the others. I strongly support unions, but its hard to discuss them because there is so much misinformation and unsubstantiated bias on both sides that it usually devolves into a street fight.


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I will say this, Jeff Alvarez and Tonya Wooldridge both need to go, any other response is insufficient.


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TwilightKnight wrote:

Generally speaking, a union is not going to stop something like the firing of Sara Marie. Most union/contractor relationships are completely discretionary. Meaning the worker can walk off the job for any or no reason and the union can put them right back to work the next day with another contractor. No questions asked. OTOH, the contractor can send a worker away for zero cause and have the union send someone else in their stead.

Of course if this happens to any meaningful degree, one side or the other is going to cry foul. The contractor could just not renew their contract with the union. And the union could strike or "conveniently" not have any workers available for the contractor when needed.

The primary role of the union is simply to create a framework by which the workers, represented by a few elected officials can bargain on equal ground for benefit and conditions with the company who also appoints a few officials to speak for them. Both sides have to negotiate in good faith or both sides will suffer. Maybe not immediately, but in the long run.

I suppose both sides could agree to a no-separation without cause clause, but those can often hurt the employee as much as the company so few agree to such things.

This is all just from the perspective of the US. I have not studied nor participated in any European, African, or Asian unions so I don't know how closely (or different) the US model matches the others. I strongly support unions, but its hard to discuss them because there is so much misinformation and unsubstantiated bias on both sides that it usually devolves into a street fight.

That's not how most US unions work. At all.

In most cases, unionized employees are still employees of the company. If someone leaves or is fired, they're not replaced by someone else the union sends over. The company hires someone and they join the union when they're hired. I think some building contractor unions work closer to how you describe, but none of the unions I'm more familiar with do.

Union contracts almost always cover firing decisions.


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thejeff wrote:
TwilightKnight wrote:

Generally speaking, a union is not going to stop something like the firing of Sara Marie. Most union/contractor relationships are completely discretionary. Meaning the worker can walk off the job for any or no reason and the union can put them right back to work the next day with another contractor. No questions asked. OTOH, the contractor can send a worker away for zero cause and have the union send someone else in their stead.

Of course if this happens to any meaningful degree, one side or the other is going to cry foul. The contractor could just not renew their contract with the union. And the union could strike or "conveniently" not have any workers available for the contractor when needed.

The primary role of the union is simply to create a framework by which the workers, represented by a few elected officials can bargain on equal ground for benefit and conditions with the company who also appoints a few officials to speak for them. Both sides have to negotiate in good faith or both sides will suffer. Maybe not immediately, but in the long run.

I suppose both sides could agree to a no-separation without cause clause, but those can often hurt the employee as much as the company so few agree to such things.

This is all just from the perspective of the US. I have not studied nor participated in any European, African, or Asian unions so I don't know how closely (or different) the US model matches the others. I strongly support unions, but its hard to discuss them because there is so much misinformation and unsubstantiated bias on both sides that it usually devolves into a street fight.

That's not how most US unions work. At all.

In most cases, unionized employees are still employees of the company. If someone leaves or is fired, they're not replaced by someone else the union sends over. The company hires someone and they join the union when they're hired. I think some building contractor unions work closer to how you describe, but none of the unions I'm more...

Yes, you're both right, as that is more how construction unions work as opposed to factory unions.

I say that with my dad working for a factory union and myself having worked for a construction union.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Paulyhedron wrote:
H2Osw wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cap'n Nemo wrote:
Mona has pulled out of the Glass Cannon Podcast show now, see that is an actionable respnse from a leader.

I've been following this for most of the day as it is developing and curious what exactly do you want? It seems as if you want everyone to fall on some sword for some reason when there has only been one side of this brought to light.

Curious.

Cancel culture is going to cancel I guess.
I hear the nutjobs complain about it, but not really ever seen it till now. It's kind of ugly, you'd think stockholders would be involved but no. Not that at all.

Well considering there are no stockholders because Paizo is 100% owned by Lisa and Vic, that's a bit tough, isn't it?


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As worried as I am for the future of this company, I am AMAZED that this discussion has turned into a history lesson. I guess the past really does inform the present. Let's continue to keep things civil, though.

Acquisitives

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cori Marie wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
H2Osw wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cap'n Nemo wrote:
Mona has pulled out of the Glass Cannon Podcast show now, see that is an actionable respnse from a leader.

I've been following this for most of the day as it is developing and curious what exactly do you want? It seems as if you want everyone to fall on some sword for some reason when there has only been one side of this brought to light.

Curious.

Cancel culture is going to cancel I guess.
I hear the nutjobs complain about it, but not really ever seen it till now. It's kind of ugly, you'd think stockholders would be involved but no. Not that at all.
Well considering there are no stockholders because Paizo is 100% owned by Lisa and Vic, that's a bit tough, isn't it?

Sure is, just like every post on here trying to think they are the executives of this company. It's silly but I reckon it's helping the posters feel better about themselves. I have seen horrible things in employers, this right here? Is overblown and I am well aware these issues aren't a competition about who can be the worst, still these things are fixable and not this rampant culture of malignancy that it is getting the attention for. What's going to happen is at some point someone is going to go 'FTS' and close shop. I happen to like Paizo's place in my nerdy world where everything is cool. Is it perfect? No. Does it have to be? No it's not and it never will be, humans are humans and make mistakes but you folks are raking people over coals over second and thirdhand information posted by someone with an axe to grind for whatever reasons. The timing of this whole thing is suspect and well done on that part, they succeeded. Now all these workers everyone's worried about? Their job just got that much harder as they really have to keep their heads down. Silly.


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Freehold DM wrote:
As worried as I am for the future of this company, I am AMAZED that this discussion has turned into a history lesson. I guess the past really does inform the present. Let's continue to keep things civil, though.

I'm civil! When you met me in RL did you think I was not civil? ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

All of the uncivil energy has been pulled elsewhere, I imagine.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
As worried as I am for the future of this company, I am AMAZED that this discussion has turned into a history lesson. I guess the past really does inform the present. Let's continue to keep things civil, though.

Like the war?

(ok sorry, bad taste, I need a little humor right now)


Sunderstone wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
As worried as I am for the future of this company, I am AMAZED that this discussion has turned into a history lesson. I guess the past really does inform the present. Let's continue to keep things civil, though.
I'm civil! When you met me in RL did you think I was not civil? ;)

Hey old man! How you doing?!


Freehold DM wrote:
Hey old man! How you doing?!

Staying safe as I hope you are. I'm due to visit a certain someone near you next week. Stay safe.


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Paulyhedron wrote:
H2Osw wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cap'n Nemo wrote:
Mona has pulled out of the Glass Cannon Podcast show now, see that is an actionable respnse from a leader.

I've been following this for most of the day as it is developing and curious what exactly do you want? It seems as if you want everyone to fall on some sword for some reason when there has only been one side of this brought to light.

Curious.

Cancel culture is going to cancel I guess.
I hear the nutjobs complain about it, but not really ever seen it till now. It's kind of ugly, you'd think stockholders would be involved but no. Not that at all.

Yes is kind of laughed away with comments of "Cancel Culture doesn't exit". Until it does and happens to something or someone you like

In this case the literal cancellation of subscriptions is very short sighted in the grand scheme of things


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Paulyhedron wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
H2Osw wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cap'n Nemo wrote:
Mona has pulled out of the Glass Cannon Podcast show now, see that is an actionable respnse from a leader.

I've been following this for most of the day as it is developing and curious what exactly do you want? It seems as if you want everyone to fall on some sword for some reason when there has only been one side of this brought to light.

Curious.

Cancel culture is going to cancel I guess.
I hear the nutjobs complain about it, but not really ever seen it till now. It's kind of ugly, you'd think stockholders would be involved but no. Not that at all.
Well considering there are no stockholders because Paizo is 100% owned by Lisa and Vic, that's a bit tough, isn't it?
Sure is, just like every post on here trying to think they are the executives of this company. It's silly but I reckon it's helping the posters feel better about themselves. I have seen horrible things in employers, this right here? Is overblown and I am well aware these issues aren't a competition about who can be the worst, still these things are fixable and not this rampant culture of malignancy that it is getting the attention for. What's going to happen is at some point someone is going to go 'FTS' and close shop. I happen to like Paizo's place in my nerdy world where everything is cool. Is it perfect? No. Does it have to be? No it's not and it never will be, humans are humans and make mistakes but you folks are raking people over coals over second and thirdhand information posted by someone with an axe to grind for whatever reasons. The timing of this whole thing is suspect and well done on that part, they succeeded. Now all these workers everyone's worried about? Their job just got that much harder as they really have to keep their heads down. Silly.

So just sit down, shut up and accept it?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Lanathar wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
H2Osw wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cap'n Nemo wrote:
Mona has pulled out of the Glass Cannon Podcast show now, see that is an actionable respnse from a leader.

I've been following this for most of the day as it is developing and curious what exactly do you want? It seems as if you want everyone to fall on some sword for some reason when there has only been one side of this brought to light.

Curious.

Cancel culture is going to cancel I guess.
I hear the nutjobs complain about it, but not really ever seen it till now. It's kind of ugly, you'd think stockholders would be involved but no. Not that at all.

Yes is kind of laughed away with comments of "Cancel Culture doesn't exit". Until it does and happens to something or someone you like

In this case the literal cancellation of subscriptions is very short sighted in the grand scheme of things

So boycotts are only smart when it's One Million Moms boycotting JC Penny for a same sex couple in their ads, is that it?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Cori Marie wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
H2Osw wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cap'n Nemo wrote:
Mona has pulled out of the Glass Cannon Podcast show now, see that is an actionable respnse from a leader.

I've been following this for most of the day as it is developing and curious what exactly do you want? It seems as if you want everyone to fall on some sword for some reason when there has only been one side of this brought to light.

Curious.

Cancel culture is going to cancel I guess.
I hear the nutjobs complain about it, but not really ever seen it till now. It's kind of ugly, you'd think stockholders would be involved but no. Not that at all.

Yes is kind of laughed away with comments of "Cancel Culture doesn't exit". Until it does and happens to something or someone you like

In this case the literal cancellation of subscriptions is very short sighted in the grand scheme of things

So boycotts are only smart when it's One Million Moms boycotting JC Penny for a same sex couple in their ads, is that it?

What on earth are you talking about? I don't understand the reference. I have no idea if it is a real one or some kind of hyperbole.

If you cancel subscriptions to a company with very diverse and inclusive content in all of it's material (far more so than the many other products, and definitely more than the past) then you are shutting down a diverse and inclusive voice.

Now since one of the main complaints is attitudes towards minorities at the very senior level then surely trying to drive a company - that despite all of this still caters to these voices - out of business doesn't really help?

Because there is a fine line between "sending a message" through not buying things and putting someone out of business. And is that what people really want? No more Paizo because of bad management and some ignorant comments from one of the most senior people.

If it is then fine. But to me it seems very much like seeing a horrible bug crawling on your foot and then reaching for the shotgun as a solution...

Dark Archive

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No one here is putting Paizo out of business. People are choosing not to support bad management.

It isn't the consumer's fault that Paizo had bad management. People are already talking about ways to support the artists directly.

Sovereign Court

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thaX wrote:
mostly the overall reason for their presence has since been under regulations and workplace basic practices that they had put in place decades ago.

(...)

Quote:
That type of representation is not needed for a gaming company like WotC, or Paizo.

Yeah! Why would the workers in a game company even need union to ensure regulations and workplace basic practices?

It's not as if Paizo employees had problems with their asthma because the company hasn't cleaned its carpets for seven years or something.

Sovereign Court

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Lanathar wrote:

Now since one of the main complaints is attitudes towards minorities at the very senior level then surely trying to drive a company - that despite all of this still caters to these voices - out of business doesn't really help?

Because there is a fine line between "sending a message" through not buying things and putting someone out of business. And is that what people really want? No more Paizo because of bad management and some ignorant comments from one of the most senior people.

I think you're seriously overestimating the purchasing power of people posting on these message boards.

But let's say you are correct. Let's say the company treats its employees badly and customers boycott it because of it. And let's say the company's response to this isn't to improve its relations with the employees but to instead cuts down their salaries, treats them worse and/or fires them.

Heck man!

In that case, *maybe* the company in question *does* deserve to go down.

Dark Archive

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Since we keep talking about the carpet, I wonder if they did in the end clean carpet after 2015 though

Sovereign Court

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CorvusMask wrote:
Since we keep talking about the carpet, I wonder if they did in the end clean carpet after 2015 though

By now, the carpet has either developed sentience or began breeding those fungi from Serpent's Skull adventure path that are neither poison nor a disease so you can't boost your fortitude saves against them.

Dark Archive

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The carpet is going to need some stats.

Sovereign Court

Mergy wrote:
The carpet is going to need some stats.

Didn't you hear? Carpet is the new head of Customer Support!

Anyway, for stats, I'd start with a Trapper but rephrase the Smother ability: instead of Grappling, the creature can poison you with fungal spores if you fail the Fortitude Save.

Link

Acquisitives

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
So just sit down, shut up and accept it?

Yeah pretty much. Way too much clutching of pearls here and everyone airing their own grievances (be it personal or from their own lives not going the way they want so they look for a distraction) on something that has ZERO to do with them.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
I will say this, Jeff Alvarez and Tonya Wooldridge both need to go, any other response is insufficient.

Why Tonya?


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Paulyhedron wrote:

So just sit down, shut up and accept it?

Yeah pretty much. Way too much clutching of pearls here and everyone airing their own grievances (be it personal or from their own lives not going the way they want so they look for a distraction) on something that has ZERO to do with them.

You are VASTLY underestimating the role Sarah Marie played in just about everyone commenting here getting their hands on a physical copy of anything having to do with a Paizo product.


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Thomas Keller wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I will say this, Jeff Alvarez and Tonya Wooldridge both need to go, any other response is insufficient.
Why Tonya?

They both had a hand in it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I will say this, Jeff Alvarez and Tonya Wooldridge both need to go, any other response is insufficient.
Why Tonya?
They both had a hand in it.

In what?

Acquisitives

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:

So just sit down, shut up and accept it?

Yeah pretty much. Way too much clutching of pearls here and everyone airing their own grievances (be it personal or from their own lives not going the way they want so they look for a distraction) on something that has ZERO to do with them.

You are VASTLY underestimating the role Sarah Marie played in just about everyone commenting here getting their hands on a physical copy of anything having to do with a Paizo product.

I am absolutely not. I hadn't even heard of this person prior to this. that being said, I am simply saying it's none of your, mine, or anyone else's business save those involved at the company.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Sir Oliver wrote:
thaX wrote:
mostly the overall reason for their presence has since been under regulations and workplace basic practices that they had put in place decades ago.

(...)

Quote:
That type of representation is not needed for a gaming company like WotC, or Paizo.

Yeah! Why would the workers in a game company even need union to ensure regulations and workplace basic practices?

It's not as if Paizo employees had problems with their asthma because the company hasn't cleaned its carpets for seven years or something.

Those two lines don't go together. The representation that Paizo doesn't need is that of those that only care about wages and bennies. The carpet is another person's job, not the Paizo employee would be the overall response.

OfCourse, a competent company could have hired a carpet cleaner to come in once a month to do a cleaning, or a specific deep cleaning, perhaps while cleaning the windows. You don't need a union for that, and the union wouldn't care about the carpet these days, regulating it to building maintenance, we will talk with them about it next week. Month? Year?

Grand Lodge

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thejeff wrote:
That's not how most US unions work. At all.

Guess I didn't experience it first hand both within my own union and almost a dozen others that operated parallel to my own as well as my time as a manager who employed union labor and assisted with contract negotiations. As you may have glossed over, I said, "generally speaking" not "All unions..." Those two have very different meanings. I stand by my comments and I stand by my experience. Good luck to you.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Paulyhedron wrote:
I am simply saying it's none of your, mine, or anyone else's business save those involved at the company.

Well to be fair, leaving these things up to the company to fix and improve all these years is exactly why this has escalated as it has. Clearly the powers that be at Paizo cannot be trusted to manage their employees with respect and dignity or they wouldn't have to fire so many or watch them flee out the door with their tails on fire.

To a large part, we as the customer community are complicit in this since we continue to ignore the often disgusting working conditions that exist at Paizo and keep turning a blind eye as long as they dazzle us with cool products. I hear there are Asian companies turning out awesome gym shoes, but that shouldn't mean we ignore the fact their workers are often children working inn conditions we wouldn't keep our farm animals in and just leave it up to the company to work out.

Silver Crusade

10 people marked this as a favorite.
Paulyhedron wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Paulyhedron wrote:

So just sit down, shut up and accept it?

Yeah pretty much. Way too much clutching of pearls here and everyone airing their own grievances (be it personal or from their own lives not going the way they want so they look for a distraction) on something that has ZERO to do with them.

You are VASTLY underestimating the role Sarah Marie played in just about everyone commenting here getting their hands on a physical copy of anything having to do with a Paizo product.
I am absolutely not. I hadn't even heard of this person prior to this. that being said, I am simply saying it's none of your, mine, or anyone else's business save those involved at the company.

Then you quite frankly are an anomaly here.

And if a company I give my money to fires someone I care about which in turn causes someone else I care about to quit in protest it is quite explicitly my business.

Sovereign Court

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thaX wrote:
Those two lines don't go together. The representation that Paizo doesn't need is that of those that only care about wages and bennies.

Yeah! I mean, who needs a better pay and benefits, anyway? Certainly not employees!

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