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A lot going through my head right now but I'll try to be coherent.
I'm not here involved in the forums and discussions just because of the systems. Finding the Paizo forums led me to becoming genuinely happy for the first time in my life, I had found purpose, I had found friends, I had found family, all of it interwoven together.
I have my subscriptions as a way to support the people who I look up to and admire, the editors, the artists, the freelancers, and what they do. If I just wanted the rules I wouldn't have to pay anything, I could just use Archives of Nethys and you wouldn't see a cent from me.
I have my subscriptions to support the people making the books and to voice "Hey, we need more of this!" (I am terribly lacking in writing reviews though, and that needs to be alleviated), similar to being a patron on Patreon. The people actually pushing for awesome things, for good things, to make theirs and other's dreams come true, I wish to support. The writings espouse inclusiveness and joy and fantasy and supporting that I am more than glad to do. More inclusiveness please, it's not a quota, keep going.
You take that away however, you take them away however, and there's no reason for me to continue supporting this company with my wallet, or for me to be here.
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A lot going through my head right now but I'll try to be coherent.
I'm not here involved in the forums and discussions just because of the systems. Finding the Paizo forums led me to becoming genuinely happy for the first time in my life, I had found purpose, I had found friends, I had found family, all of it interwoven together.
I have my subscriptions as a way to support the people who I look up to and admire, the editors, the artists, the freelancers, and what they do. If I just wanted the rules I wouldn't have to pay anything, I could just use Archives of Nethys and you wouldn't see a cent from me.
I have my subscriptions to support the people making the books and to voice "Hey, we need more of this!" (I am terribly lacking writing reviews though, and that needs to be alleviated), similar to being a patron on Patreon. The people actually pushing for awesome things, for good things, to make theirs and other's dreams come true, I wish to support. The writings espouse inclusiveness and joy and fantasy and the supporting that I am more than glad to do. More inclusiveness please, it's not a quota, keep going.
You take that away however, you take them away however, and there's no reason for me to continue supporting this company with my wallet, or for me to be here.
Hard same.
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A lot going through my head right now but I'll try to be coherent.
I'm not here involved in the forums and discussions just because of the systems. Finding the Paizo forums led me to becoming genuinely happy for the first time in my life, I had found purpose, I had found friends, I had found family, all of it interwoven together.
I have my subscriptions as a way to support the people who I look up to and admire, the editors, the artists, the freelancers, and what they do. If I just wanted the rules I wouldn't have to pay anything, I could just use Archives of Nethys and you wouldn't see a cent from me.
I have my subscriptions to support the people making the books and to voice "Hey, we need more of this!" (I am terribly lacking in writing reviews though, and that needs to be alleviated), similar to being a patron on Patreon. The people actually pushing for awesome things, for good things, to make theirs and other's dreams come true, I wish to support. The writings espouse inclusiveness and joy and fantasy and supporting that I am more than glad to do. More inclusiveness please, it's not a quota, keep going.
You take that away however, you take them away however, and there's no reason for me to continue supporting this company with my wallet, or for me to be here.
Getting to this place myself. I am not at all happy right now.
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As far as I know, I agree with everything on here, but did something happen specifically to trigger this? I feel like I've missed something.
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As far as I know, I agree with everything on here, but did something happen specifically to trigger this? I feel like I've missed something.
Sara Marie was fired, and Diego Valdez resigned in support. In response, a former Paizo employee, Jessica Price, posted a detailed thread on Twitter that suggested that Paizo hasn't quite been on the up-and-up regarding inclusiveness.
While I'm still watching the situation to see what develops, always push for more inclusiveness.
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A lot going through my head right now but I'll try to be coherent.
I'm not here involved in the forums and discussions just because of the systems. Finding the Paizo forums led me to becoming genuinely happy for the first time in my life, I had found purpose, I had found friends, I had found family, all of it interwoven together.
I have my subscriptions as a way to support the people who I look up to and admire, the editors, the artists, the freelancers, and what they do. If I just wanted the rules I wouldn't have to pay anything, I could just use Archives of Nethys and you wouldn't see a cent from me.
I have my subscriptions to support the people making the books and to voice "Hey, we need more of this!" (I am terribly lacking in writing reviews though, and that needs to be alleviated), similar to being a patron on Patreon. The people actually pushing for awesome things, for good things, to make theirs and other's dreams come true, I wish to support. The writings espouse inclusiveness and joy and fantasy and supporting that I am more than glad to do. More inclusiveness please, it's not a quota, keep going.
You take that away however, you take them away however, and there's no reason for me to continue supporting this company with my wallet, or for me to be here.
I can see I wasn't the only who read that thread and I agree with Rysky completely. I wish there was a way to show how much I appreciate Sara and Diego's extreme time, effort (and who are we kidding, stress) in working Customer Service and with us, the players, on these forums.
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As far as I know, I agree with everything on here, but did something happen specifically to trigger this? I feel like I've missed something.Sara Marie was fired, and Diego Valdez resigned in support. In response, a former Paizo employee, Jessica Price, posted a detailed thread on Twitter that suggested that Paizo hasn't quite been on the up-and-up regarding inclusiveness.
While I'm still watching the situation to see what develops, always push for more inclusiveness.
Lulu Pellazar also resigned in support.
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*crossposting from CS thread, probably breaking a couple of rules, /thanos I don't much care. /thanos*
What the hell, Paizo? I’ve just sent a request to cancel my remaining sub.
You don’t fire a hero like Sara Marie, unless you’re so deep in red or you’re doing away with customer service, and neither is the case here. You just don’t.
For anybody who has been an Unpaid Paizo Shill as long as I was, it was quickly obvious that, like every business, Paizo is great people, OK people, so-so people and bad people. And because the way late capitalism works, the latter tend to be in management and the former tend to be closer to the customer. Over the years, Paizo has done great things, starting with printing a gay paladin and his hubby back in 2007 when your entire customer base was middle-aged working-class white American men, and that took some courage. You’ve gotten women to write Adventure Paths, you hired Crystal, you did Lost Omens: Mwangi Exapnse, the MCU Black Panther Wakanda moment for the whole industry.
You’ve also done things questionable and/or downright dumb, ranging from keeping a mindbogglingly outdated IT system that dragged everything you did down (and for the record, while I’m skeptical of Jessica Price, the story about that being a thing because one of your higher-ups gets royalties for the code sounds oddly familiar) through printing some dumb things (madness makes you Evil, what a great take to have these days), letting great people go and giving off that uncanny air that your top brass are somewhat disconnected with reality around them. But OK, everybody is living in an episode of The Office and dealing with their Michaels and Dwights. If I were to get upset about every company I interact with having stupid people in management and making bad decisions, I'd probably have to live in a jungle and scavenge on poisonous frogs.
But you don’t fire Sara Marie. You just don’t.
For years, I’ve been attacked over being unapologetically supportive of things you did. These days have certainly come to their end yesterday.
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I'm still reeling this in. I've gone to bat for Paizo to help spread the message of their general inclusiveness, their positive product and Vibrant staff so many times..
I feel Betrayed. Not only that, I can't even imagine the pain Paizo has caused to its Staff. Things =NEED= to change.
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Very disheartening news. One of the reasons I got involved with Pathfinder and advertised it to my friend sphere was the belief that Paizo is a good company that cares.
I'll stop buying Paizo products for some time while I figure out the whole situation.
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I'm Non-binary and Bisexual, as well as Polyamorous and I've been proud to support Paizo because their products are inclusive, as well as because of how much I love Pathfinder 2e itself. I don't know about the current situation, but even if the things being alleged aren't true, I want to raise my voice in support of an inclusive Paizo as being important to me.
I wonder if they have any customer service staff left in the company who know how to lock a thread they won't want people reading/adding to? :D
But yeah, if JP's tirade is based on fact, then that is five kinds of shady.
There's a link to the tweets on the EN World homepage, which I have thoughtfully pasted below;
https://www.enworld.org/threads/jessica-price-ex-paizo-employee-spills-the- beans.682682/
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To put it bluntly are we getting this part of the story only from Jessica price? Since honestly I wouldent believe Jessica price if she said water was wet so I would like other sources besides her since something clearly has happend.
If you insist, Crystal Frasier and Diego Valdez have also spoken up, as has others. I would very much recommend taking a peek for yourself instead of jumping on a very serious thread to question the credibility of marginalized people.. Search for the Paizo Hashtags.
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I was sceptical until she mentioned the janky website, then it all fell into place.
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Not happy about any of this. I hope we see some tangible change - it hurts to see this come out of a company that puts so much into a progressive public image. The word of misogyny and queerphobia from the higher ups undercuts so much of what your diverse team works so hard to put out.
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To put it bluntly are we getting this part of the story only from Jessica price? Since honestly I wouldent believe Jessica price if she said water was wet so I would like other sources besides her since something clearly has happend.
I agree with your dislike of Jessica, however, in this instance she appears to be right on.
THIS was shared by Diego Valdez
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To put it bluntly are we getting this part of the story only from Jessica price? Since honestly I wouldent believe Jessica price if she said water was wet so I would like other sources besides her since something clearly has happend.I agree with your dislike of Jessica, however, in this instance she appears to be right on.
THIS was shared by Diego Valdez
Thank you
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To put it bluntly are we getting this part of the story only from Jessica price? Since honestly I wouldent believe Jessica price if she said water was wet so I would like other sources besides her since something clearly has happend.
Well it's not like anyone will fire Jeff Alvarez if he comes forth with the true version of events... right?
Erik Mona already was quoted in the Twitter thread with some corrections, and in frankness this part of the twitter rant sounds a bit overblown to me.
However Sara Marie had a stellar track record and was universally well-liked with customers which was her actual job and also evidently with the colleagues so I cannot imagine a good reason behind firing her. It was a mistake so big PF2 doesn't even has a word for that size anymore.
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It's clearly a rant, and I would take everything in it with a grain of salt.
That said, it seems pretty clear with what Jessica, Crystal, and Diego have said, that some pretty toxic management is happening. I've been a Paizo customer for over a decade. I recently started subscribing because I want to demonstrate long-term support for the Workers who are making stuff I love. I hate the idea that they'd have to work in a toxic and abusive environment just to be able to create the things they want to create.
I know I'll be following the conversation here, on Twitter, and on discord, looking for any kind of organized ideas for how customers can help. Just cancelling orders doesn't seem particularly effective. I'm guessing that 95% of Paizo's customers don't follow any of this. But there has to be some way for a company's most dedicated fans to apply pressure on behalf of the workers.
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A lot going through my head right now but I'll try to be coherent.
I'm not here involved in the forums and discussions just because of the systems. Finding the Paizo forums led me to becoming genuinely happy for the first time in my life, I had found purpose, I had found friends, I had found family, all of it interwoven together.
I have my subscriptions as a way to support the people who I look up to and admire, the editors, the artists, the freelancers, and what they do. If I just wanted the rules I wouldn't have to pay anything, I could just use Archives of Nethys and you wouldn't see a cent from me.
I have my subscriptions to support the people making the books and to voice "Hey, we need more of this!" (I am terribly lacking in writing reviews though, and that needs to be alleviated), similar to being a patron on Patreon. The people actually pushing for awesome things, for good things, to make theirs and other's dreams come true, I wish to support. The writings espouse inclusiveness and joy and fantasy and supporting that I am more than glad to do. More inclusiveness please, it's not a quota, keep going.
You take that away however, you take them away however, and there's no reason for me to continue supporting this company with my wallet, or for me to be here.
I’ve been a supporter of Paizo since the Dungeon/Dragon Magazine days.
I’ve been a Paizo/Pathfinder subscriber to their RPG line since the beginning.There have been red flags with Paizo over the years that as a long time fan that I’ve kind of ignored and that’s on me. Prior to this latest thing, it was both Lisa’s non-support for racial justice re: George Floyd’s murder and the constant and consistent exit of a fair amount of creative staff (which actually started before the first thing I mentioned).
Jessica Price never took sh*t from ANYONE. I’ve seen her try and be diplomatic in threads but posters/fans would keep talking out of the sides of their neck at her so she didnt suffer fools gladly. Could it be grating sure. But she’s never popped off without being provoked or without reason that I’ve seen. So when Jessica left Paizo I wasn’t really surprised?
Crystal’s unceremonious departure from Paizo bothered me. She’d always been in my eyes one of the nicest, smartest and knowledgeable faces of Paizo’s staff.
Same for Amanda HK’s departure as well. And it made me look at the departures.that took place before (Wes and Sutter in particular) and after that as well.
Now Wes and Sutter and Amanda leaving might not have anything to do with anything but it caught my attention.
After Lisa’s non statement - I stopped buying anything from Paizo for MONTHS. Aside from my one remaining sub (which I should have cancelled) no money went to Paizo. Instead I bought other games like ALIEN the RPG, or spent that money on my miniatures habit.
I’m cancelling my one remaining sub. I’m going to purchase the remaining books of the latest AP after they’re all out and hopefully from a 3rd party.
Paizo gets no more of my cash. I’m one person so it won’t be much of a dent. But the names involved? I’ll remember and I’ll make sure I never support new work, kickstarters and Patreon with their names attached.
It doesn’t take much to NOT be a toxic employer or manager. It really doesn’t.
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You and I see eye to eye on basically nothing if we can avoid it.
No secret there. We have learned, I hope, that it is better to not engage when unnecessary.
I feel it is necessary here.
Kudos. Exactly this. I am processing a lot right now too and this here is probably the most eloquent way someone could put voice to my inner turmoil.
I would add that the fact that I am having turmoil and not a knee jerk reaction is hurting too. Because I have my standards and from what I am reading of current events they come no where near them.
At the same time I am in turmoil and I am working through what my next steps are.
I don't know if Paizo CAN fix this situation, but I also feel based on everything I am reading from former employees that the change would have to be holistic, at the top, and immediate.
Rysky, you are a voice. One I don't always agree with. But you should always use it.
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I am in agreement here I am going to need to see some sort of statement from Paizo management or my subscriptions are going to go as well.
So. What now?
Will there be a statement made at some point?
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Wow. On the same wavelength there, Justin, lol.
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So I just wanted to say that I very rarely if ever post on here save when I have customer support issues.
That being said I come here all the time and read what people have to say. I have seen you post on here several times and have enjoyed what you have had to say.
I just wanted to say that I wish you well, and to say I am seriously considering cutting my subscriptions as well.
I'm sure this all this sudden exposure is blindsiding Paizo, and right before GenCon. I look forward to their response to these issues, but given the timing I wouldn't expect anything until mid next week.
Certainly not something I want to be patient on, but the timing is especially inconvenient (not accusing this as being any sort of targeted timing, just a coincidence).
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Fire your widely, rightly, adored customer service manager during GenCon week, they kinda asked for this...
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And I'm with othersvin that I don't particularly trust Jessica. But the corroboration from Crystal is what gave me the big hollow feeling that I've had the last 24 hours.
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A lot going through my head right now but I'll try to be coherent.
I'm not here involved in the forums and discussions just because of the systems. Finding the Paizo forums led me to becoming genuinely happy for the first time in my life, I had found purpose, I had found friends, I had found family, all of it interwoven together.
I have my subscriptions as a way to support the people who I look up to and admire, the editors, the artists, the freelancers, and what they do. If I just wanted the rules I wouldn't have to pay anything, I could just use Archives of Nethys and you wouldn't see a cent from me.
I have my subscriptions to support the people making the books and to voice "Hey, we need more of this!" (I am terribly lacking in writing reviews though, and that needs to be alleviated), similar to being a patron on Patreon. The people actually pushing for awesome things, for good things, to make theirs and other's dreams come true, I wish to support. The writings espouse inclusiveness and joy and fantasy and supporting that I am more than glad to do. More inclusiveness please, it's not a quota, keep going.
You take that away however, you take them away however, and there's no reason for me to continue supporting this company with my wallet, or for me to be here.
Agree completely. The inclusiveness in the writing and the quality of the material is what keeps me coming to paizo for my ttrpg gaming. I'm very pleased with the direction things have seemed to go with pf2e and the reform of mwangi in the setting and the lost omens book there in particular. The company moving in that direction is a good thing and the reason I support their products. I'm very disturbed by what I've read this morning and will be watching closely to see if I need to change that.
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And I'm with othersvin that I don't particularly trust Jessica. But the corroboration from Crystal is what gave me the big hollow feeling that I've had the last 24 hours.
At this point I think re evaluating all previous perspectives is in order.
Diego's post was enough for me to view any and all rants, ravings, accountings as a lot more legitimate than I would have 2 weeks ago.
The fact that other former employees are now willing to voice corroboration is very telling and disturbing.
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I wonder if they have any customer service staff left in the company who know how to lock a thread they won't want people reading/adding to? :D
But yeah, if JP's tirade is based on fact, then that is five kinds of shady.
There's a link to the tweets on the EN World homepage, which I have thoughtfully pasted below;
https://www.enworld.org/threads/jessica-price-ex-paizo-employee-spills-the- beans.682682/
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Bottom line is that these things are common, so before anyone mashes the "I'm taking my business elsewhere!" button, consider whether any other company is actually better at life, or whether, like Paizo a week ago, was just better at keeping their detractors silent. You're likely just buying yourself a few years of blissful ignorance before you find out that the people you thought were great have some deeply problematic behaviors.
Because, frankly, everyone has deeply problematic behaviors, and the more time you spend with someone (or someone spends with you), the more likely they are to see it manifest.
The commonality of a problem is relevant if you think you can take your guilt-free dollars elsewhere, but it's not relevant if your goal is to see this community and team (especially the workers) thrive. In that case, it's fair to ask for corrective action. And of course, we still have only a few sides of the story but corroboration, yadda yadda, etc.
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Bottom line is that these things are common, so before anyone mashes the "I'm taking my business elsewhere!" button, consider whether any other company is actually better at life, or whether, like Paizo a week ago, was just better at keeping their detractors silent...
Just because something is common doesn't mean it is okay. I think many of us come to this message board and use this company's products because we thought they stood for something better. It hurts to be told that we are wrong by several people who not just worked there but by and large WERE the company for those they interacted with.
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This is a problem I have worried about for a long time, since phrenology was somehow added as an occult skill back in 1st and no one seemed to think that needed the axe, and continued through the firings and departures of some of the strongest talent in their offices. It is horrifying to hear what I was worried about for so long was true, and a cold relief that I hadn't bought 1st party stuff since the flip to 2nd. I feel this hurting like others do, and hope that something is done soon to correct this and begin the process of repair needed to make this better, something that will take a long time and a lot of work, but will be worth it if they plan to attract talent and foster real positive growth.
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Sounds like the team needs a union and fast.
I feel very much the same. I've held on to my subscription despite a financial crunch. Hell, I was contemplating adding a Starfinder subscription. Now, I see little reason to keep either.
This is a problem I have worried about for a long time, since phrenology was somehow added as an occult skill back in 1st and no one seemed to think that needed the axe, and continued through the firings and departures of some of the strongest talent in their offices. It is horrifying to hear what I was worried about for so long was true, and a cold relief that I hadn't bought 1st party stuff since the flip to 2nd. I feel this hurting like others do, and hope that something is done soon to correct this and begin the process of repair needed to make this better, something that will take a long time and a lot of work, but will be worth it if they plan to attract talent and foster real positive growth.
I remember bringing that up on the forums at the time and people telling me it wasn't a big issue. Enlightening to see how it is part of the bigger picture, and not in a good way.
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That is a very sad and defeatist mindset to have, to think everyone vile and therefore excuse the vileness.
We’re not children, the “someone else has it worse somewhere else” tactic is as meaningless and irrelevant then as it is now.
We care about the people working for Paizo, the people we adore, being mistreated. It is something very specific we are concerned with, not some sliding scale of points. We want improvements, not unrelated places to spend our money elsewhere.
I don’t want Paizo to fail or disappear, that would hurt the people we care about, I want things to be made right.
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Knowing that whatever is said by people (particularly in Twitter rants) tends to lack context or be the most extreme version of events, the inflammatory version of anything, and tempering reactions accordingly: this still looks bad on Paizo.
Every customer who has logged into the forums and checked on the customer service threads for subscription or other related info knows this has been a ridiculously tough year for Paizo's customer service team. And literally the only complaint of substance I've seen is that they were slow to respond while working through a huge backlog.
If I knew nothing else, the fact that two of her team members quit in support of Sara Marie is sufficient for me to suspect who is in the wrong. I've worked at small companies and very large ones, and seen a lot of little things get blown out of proportion, and other things get misinterpreted by those without the details. This could be one of those, but I doubt it. I certainly don't presume to know the quality of Sara Marie's non-public-facing work, but it says a lot that Diego and Lulu left, too.
To the Paizo leadership team being called out directly for specific actions: You can be a competent, effective boss 99% of the time and a problematic boss 1% of the time and still be toxic as hell. If multiple people are quitting solely to not work for you anymore, you're toxic.
Stop undermining your own company.
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Another sad entry in the saga of creative and brilliant people lost in passion-driven industries.
I really hope we can all look back in a phew years a breath a sigh of relief after mass-unionization occurs in the various games industries. I don't expect it, but I still hope for it.
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I feel very much the same. I've held on to my subscription despite a financial crunch. Hell, I was contemplating adding a Starfinder subscription. Now, I see little reason to keep either.
This is a problem I have worried about for a long time, since phrenology was somehow added as an occult skill back in 1st and no one seemed to think that needed the axe, and continued through the firings and departures of some of the strongest talent in their offices. It is horrifying to hear what I was worried about for so long was true, and a cold relief that I hadn't bought 1st party stuff since the flip to 2nd. I feel this hurting like others do, and hope that something is done soon to correct this and begin the process of repair needed to make this better, something that will take a long time and a lot of work, but will be worth it if they plan to attract talent and foster real positive growth.I remember bringing that up on the forums at the time and people telling me it wasn't a big issue. Enlightening to see how it is part of the bigger picture, and not in a good way.
Feel you my dude. I grew up and continue to interact with a large POC group, and it always kills me that every time I look over one of my favorite books from 1st it has that big stupid stain in it, especially considering both what it says through its mechanics, and how phren is effectively mechanically redundant once you look at read aura which doesn't have the same baggage. It screamed to me that their either wasn't any diversity in the room or that training & empathy to spot it, or that management didn't listen when they spoke up, and it has soured me for a long time.
Happy to see I'm not the only one who felt it was gross and off. Thanks for the pipe up.
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Sounds like the team needs a union and fast.
One of many in the creative industry, and one of many that will be markedly improved by having people who's sole job is to fight managerial overstepping and assure that more positive and effective management is required in order to succeed.
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I just want to take a moment and say I appreciate Paizo and the Paizo community for the last 10+ years I've been a player and customer. I am not LGBTQ+ or a POC, so earlier in my experiences with PF inclusivity wasn't something I expected. I do value inclusivity, but I lacked the perspectives on why its so important. Paizo including diversity in their products and allowing discussion on their forums about inclusivity really helped me learn about perspectives I never had before. This has affected my opinions in life beyond the game. Thank you Paizo and Paizo community!
That said, the recent comments by former employees are disheartening. I do believe there is a little something to the "nobody is prefect" mindset when talking about an organization, but that certainly doesn't excuse poor behavior by individuals. Paizo really needs to address this.
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I don’t want Paizo to fail or disappear, that would hurt the people we care about, I want things to be made right.
That's one of the biggest reasons why I am not canceling my subscriptions (yet). Washing my hands of it takes away what little power I have to push for change, and it's likelier that a bunch of canceled subscriptions would just result in layoffs. People need some security. Life can be so precarious. Look at what happened to Adam Daigle.
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So what's actionable steps here? What would people need to see from the company to see it resolve this? As Rsyky says, that's the vital thing.
For me, I need a handful of things for sure for sure:
Other things I'd like to see for future stability:
What else needs to be on the to-do list?
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I'm here to echo what everyone else has said. Not cancelling my subscriptions yet. I will definitely be watching.