Let me make this clear


Paizo General Discussion

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Themetricsystem wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I don’t feel comfortable monetarily supporting Paizo until the specific allegations about the treatment of trans employees are addressed.
The allegations are meritless, have no evidence, and fundamentally cannot ever be disproven by way of the nature they are presented... you might as well just stop posting here because this is a nothing-burger and if you expect concrete info on it you're going to be left waiting just like the USA waiting for news of WMDs in Iraq.

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So you don't regard witness/victim statements as evidence?


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, LO Special Edition, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Eye witness accounts are evidence, but not very reliable. I can't speak to the reliability of victim statements, but I think generally they should be accepted at least until investigation verifies them... or doesn't.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Eye witness accounts are evidence, but not very reliable. I can't speak to the reliability of victim statements, but I think generally they should be accepted at least until investigation verifies them... or doesn't.

Hence 'evidence' rather than 'proof'.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, LO Special Edition, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Tremaine wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
Eye witness accounts are evidence, but not very reliable. I can't speak to the reliability of victim statements, but I think generally they should be accepted at least until investigation verifies them... or doesn't.
Hence 'evidence' rather than 'proof'.

Of course.


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Eye witness accounts are evidence, but not very reliable. I can't speak to the reliability of victim statements, but I think generally they should be accepted at least until investigation verifies them... or doesn't.

With most things like this, there's never going to be anything but witness statements. I'm not even sure what verification you'd be looking for in most cases.

Other than looking for explicit written policies of discrimination, which very rarely exist, most investigation will consist of getting more witness statements to corroborate or deny allegations.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:

Crystal is ethical and honest. If she says it happened, I believe her. (She also named a corroborating witness, Amanda). The accusation has merit. Reparations for that are a private matter.

Assurances that it is no longer happening and that there are formal company policies ensuring it doesn’t happen again does not have to be hush hush. The more the issue gets the silent treatment, the worse it is.

Has Amanda corroborated this? Also, I'm sorry, but who is Amanda?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Amanda Hamon, former developer at Paizo. She has not, but she has also been physically at GenCon all week, so may not even be aware of what's going on.

Liberty's Edge

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I hear the anger and pain. However, I would encourage humility and grace with this. It is easier to tear down then to build up.

Humility in that we don’t really know what all happened. We just don’t. Nor are we likely to ever fully understand any HR related topics; even employees in the same company rarely know the truths. Also, Social media is notoriously bad at giving or finding “truth”.

Grace in that you should want Paizo management and staff to be treated in the same fair way that you would want to be treated. I can’t imagine the pain and fear that Jacob and Erik must feeling, being bashed on social media by the same fans that they put their heart and soul into creating content for. This is a very sad thing. Jacob, Erik, and whoever else the mob wants fired, deserve better from their fans. If you feel they did bad things then you should want them to improve and make amends. But like I said above, that is only a feeling you have. You don’t know.

You do you. But for me, I will continue to support Paizo and purchase their amazing inclusive content. Maybe someday there will be obvious facts on this subject. But that someday is not today.

Humility and grace.

Dark Archive

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I really want to like Paizo as a company, and to continue supporting them. Or at least, I want to support the company I thought that they were. A number of us have said that we believe Crystal's account of what happened, and so we are waiting for a response to show that things have changed already, or that aggressive changes are taking place.

Anything less, and it turns out I was supporting a company that I shouldn't have.

Silver Crusade

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Cori Marie wrote:
Amanda Hamon, former developer at Paizo. She has not, but she has also been physically at GenCon all week, so may not even be aware of what's going on.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that EVERYBODY at Paizo is aware of what is going on. Although many of them quite likely don't have time to read all (or even some of) the posts, twitters, etc I'd bet significant money that they know the basics (the firing of Sara Marie has caused a massive s@#!storm of posts and tweets and lots of accusations are being lobbed at Paizo. At least some of which have some truth to them. And quite a few people are threatening to vote with their wallet and a fair few have already done so)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
pauljathome wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Amanda Hamon, former developer at Paizo. She has not, but she has also been physically at GenCon all week, so may not even be aware of what's going on.
Oh, I'm pretty sure that EVERYBODY at Paizo is aware of what is going on. Although many of them quite likely don't have time to read all (or even some of) the posts, twitters, etc I'd bet significant money that they know the basics (the firing of Sara Marie has caused a massive s$*@storm of posts and tweets and lots of accusations are being lobbed at Paizo. At least some of which have some truth to them. And quite a few people are threatening to vote with their wallet and a fair few have already done so)

Amanda hasn't been at Paizo for a couple of years now, so she very well may not.

Silver Crusade

Cori Marie wrote:
Amanda hasn't been at Paizo for a couple of years now, so she very well may not.

Ah. Fair enough. Especially with Paizo people not being physically at GenCon (I'd kinda forgotten that for a second and falsely assumed it would be a hot topic of conversation between current and former Paizo employees)

Silver Crusade

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That is in no way humility, humility would be something asked of the company on behalf of the customers and their employees, not what you demand of the people outraged (aka you keep using that word...)

Grace would be to keep the poignant matters prominent, and also actually know what's going and who all is involved, such as the difference between a Jacob and Jason.

It'd be best to acquaint yourself with what's actually occurring to the best of your abilities before making demands of how others should act.


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Rysky wrote:

That is in no way humility, humility would be something asked of the company on behalf of the customers and their employees, not what you demand of the people outraged (aka you keep using that word...)

Grace would be to keep the poignant matters prominent, and also actually know what's going and who all is involved, such as the difference between a Jacob and Jason.

It'd be best to acquaint yourself with what's actually occurring to the best of your abilities before making demands of how others should act.

Humility includes understanding that you can be wrong no matter how sure you feel about something.

Humbly,
Yawar

Silver Crusade

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Automatically dismissing any claims and assuming a company is in the right be the default and to not make any noise is not in anyway humility, it is being a doormat.

I CAN be wrong, absolutely, but automatically deciding I am and to not bother is self defeating with no purpose.


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Turbo-captialists: You know how the free market works? You vote with your wallet and the invisible hand of free market kicks in, taking care of stuff.

Heart-throbbing LGBT+ kids, simulacrums of snarky European lawyers, Steve from Australia: ok boomers *cancel subs*

Turbo-captialsts: n..no..not like that


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cori Marie wrote:
Amanda Hamon, former developer at Paizo. She has not, but she has also been physically at GenCon all week, so may not even be aware of what's going on.

Thank you for the clarification.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YawarFiesta wrote:

And flooding the inbox of Paizo executives during their, possibly, busiest time of the year is.

Humbly,
Yawar

If “too many emails” is abuse in your mind - then how are you able to countenance any of the behaviors and charges made against Paizo management? The things they are accused of having done all rise far beyond the level of “too many emails.”

Dark Archive

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dirtypool wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:

And flooding the inbox of Paizo executives during their, possibly, busiest time of the year is.

Humbly,
Yawar

If “too many emails” is abuse in your mind - then how are you able to countenance any of the behaviors and charges made against Paizo management? The things they are accused of having done all rise far beyond the level of “too many emails.”

Don't expect logically consistent beliefs here: consumers and employees should be lucky to get what they need to scrape by (stop emailing, that's too aggressive!), and business owners are captains of industry and job creators who can do no wrong.

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