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I agree. The sorcerer has access to all 4 traditions as option and I don't see this being compensated in anyway (and don't make sense for balance questions) it even has access to cross tradition spells.
The witch is mee because a series of bad design decisions it's not because it's need to be compensated in order to not be in CRB or have many traditions options.
Sorcerer is probably a bit more powerful than Wizard. Hard to tell exactly. I see it as less powerful than the other spellcasters aside from Witch. And maybe Oracle. Not sure on that one either.
Occult sorcerer vs Bard: well not much outclasses Bard.
Divine sorcerer vs Cleric: no Divine Font, less martial ability.
Primal sorcerer vs Druid: Druid just feels a lot stronger - especially in melee range combat.
Not that I would shed any tears about getting serious buffs to the Witch class.
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As for the complete rebuild idea, I don't think it will happen. I also don't think that it should.
Any rebuild that includes the pick-a-tradition will end up in a similar position. Not really able to be all that strong without replacing other classes somewhere.
Rebuilding it to be a single-tradition sounds promising. Occult tradition, prepared spellcasting, INT based. Sounds pretty good actually - as a new class. Maybe Mesmerist?
So why not have both Mesmerist and current Witch?
Just as a reminder, minions normally can't aid as they do not have a reaction.Familiars in Exploration
Something we've done at our table isto treat a character's familiar as aiding the exploraction activity of the character with narrative descriptions of what the familiar is doing and how it is using its abilities to affect the DC for aid checks.
Good thing we're not a PFS table :)
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The difference between the sorcerer and other tradition casters is largely the same as the wizard vs other casters. The main delineation between them is the extra spell slot of the sorcerer/wizard vs the extra class features and proficiencies 3 slot casters get.
'Pick a tradition casters need to be bad on purpose' isn't something that's reflected in the rules and, once again, doesn't make any sense from a balance or design perspective anyways.
The witch is just weirdly tuned... and honestly a lot of those issues come from small aspects of the class and the way it was rebuilt after the playtest, rather than much to suggest some sinister conspiracy to make the class terrible.
I agree. The sorcerer has access to all 4 traditions as option and I don't see this being compensated in anyway (and don't make sense for balance questions) it even has access to cross tradition spells.
The witch is mee because a series of bad design decisions it's not because it's need to be compensated in order to not be in CRB or have many traditions options.
Yes the thought that one type of spell list is markedly inferior to any other is not correct. Yes I still think Arcane is marginally ahead but there is not much in it, and its very situational. But Paizo staff have made statements that they don't view any one list as better than the other.
Well, this thread seems to be devolving back into class comparisons again. Which has been hashed and rehashed repeatedly. I would link to the old threads, but I hid them. So you will have to find them yourself.
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Where else is the thread supposed to go.
You want errata for a reason. Others want errata for different reasons, in part because Witch compares unfavorably to other casters in some regards.
Where else is the thread supposed to go.
You want errata for a reason. Others want errata for different reasons, in part because Witch compares unfavorably to other casters in some regards.
I'm aware that this is where the topic trends towards from post 1. Actually, I think there is a lot of good discussion in this thread.
I'm hoping for errata meaning 'fixing errors and confusion' rather than changing class balance.
In thinking on this for the last half hour or so...
Why do Oracle and Cleric not conflict as much?
They are both Divine casters. They both have focus spells. They actually share the ability to get off-tradition spells.
What is it that makes it such that people still want to use both of them. One doesn't completely overshadow the other.
If we can understand that, maybe we can come up with something that will help Witch be able to be increased in mechanical power without risking replacing another class or two.
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In thinking on this for the last half hour or so...
Why do Oracle and Cleric not conflict as much?
They are both Divine casters. They both have focus spells. They actually share the ability to get off-tradition spells.
What is it that makes it such that people still want to use both of them. One doesn't completely overshadow the other.
If we can understand that, maybe we can come up with something that will help Witch be able to be increased in mechanical power without risking replacing another class or two.
Because battle oracle is light-years ahead of warpriest, life oracle isn't too far off from heal cleric, spontaneous casting feels better to a lot of people, you can steal spells from multiple different gods, people like the curse flavor+mechanics, cha is a good stat
That said, every oracle I've played with has been dissatisfied with the class since divine is an awful list for a spontaneous caster and cleric's total knowledge of the spell list, ability to freely heighten as needed, and extra heal slots make far better use of it.
The witch, by comparison, has no niche and no flavorful mechanic.
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Because battle oracle is light-years ahead of warpriest, life oracle isn't too far off from heal cleric, spontaneous casting feels better to a lot of people, you can steal spells from multiple different gods, people like the curse flavor+mechanics, cha is a good stat
That said, every oracle I've played with has been dissatisfied with the class since divine is an awful list for a spontaneous caster and cleric's total knowledge of the spell list, ability to freely heighten as needed, and extra heal slots make far better use of it.
I'm not entirely sure what aspects you are meaning when comparing the Battle Oracle and Warpriest Cleric. That one might just be the numbers making the difference.
For the rest of this, it doesn't appear that you are talking about the stats and numbers. It is more things like Divine Font vs. off-list spell selection and curse.
The witch, by comparison, has no niche and no flavorful mechanic.
Hmm... While that is not technically correct, it isn't wrong either. Witch does kinda have a niche, just not a very powerful one. And Witch's mechanics are generally not unique.
It has a familiar. So do a lot of other classes after one feat choice.
It has focus spells. So do a lot of other classes.
It can get off-list spells. As can Cleric, Oracle, and sometimes Sorcerer. Bard can even get one at high enough levels.
I see the Witch having two primary mechanics to focus on. One is the familiar. The other is the ability to pull concepts from other classes. The problem with that second one is that while you are making a unique character a-la-carte style, nothing about the character is actually unique.
Improving the familiar is fairly easy and likely won't overshadow other classes except maybe Summoner. Witch-specific familiar abilities to start with. And put the Familiar Master feats of Familiar Conduit and Mutable Familiar as Witch class feats and have them as Additional Feats for the Familiar Master archetype. Much like how Martial Artist has Additional Feats from the Monk class. Martial Artist is an archetype that lets you feel like you have Monk brawling ability but without the rest of the Monk archetype. Familiar Master should be doing the same for Witch. You get something similar to the Witch familiar, but without the rest of the Witch archetype.
Pulling together pieces of separate classes into one character is a lot more difficult. One idea that I had was to improve the Lesson feats to include more off-list spells to choose from. Instead of getting one fixed spell, you can choose any spell (from any tradition) with a particular trait. So Lesson of Life would give Life Boost and one spell with the Healing trait. And Lesson of the Elements would give Elemental Betrayal and one spell with the Air, Fire, Water, or Earth traits.
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Sorry for another much-too-long post. I promise I'll stop at some point...
Let's summarize a bit here...
Concerning the original topic:
The issues with familiars breithauptclan brings up are absolutely relevant and should be cleared up. The minions in exploration issue needs to be fixed in a CRB errata since it goes far beyond the Witch class. Witch just happens to be the one class that can't exist without a permanent minion.
Basic Lesson being the "best" choice at level 2 is a bit more subjective, even though I personally mostly agree. I do think other classes have similar problems, though. If not at level 2, then at a later level. This usually is not due to the one feat being super powerful. It's often the other feats at that level that are lackluster.
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Class design/balance:
We all mostly agree that the Witch is among the weaker classes, yes? Both in design and in power. The reasons I see in general are:
- Cloth caster chassis (proficiencies, HP) with only 3 spells per level and nothing that really makes up for it.
- Strong focus on the familiar which by the end of the day isn't that much better than what other classes can get via their own feats and/or archetypes.
- Hex cantrips are ok-ish at best but often very situational and/or outright weak. Picking a certain tradition locks you into only a few different cantrips to choose from. No ability at all to get more than one focus cantrip - ever. Not from another Patron and no new higher level ones like the Bard can get via feats.
- The initial Focus spell Phase Familiar is absolutely terrible. It's one of the worst Focus powers in the game. And among the worst it's the only one you cannot avoid in any way. It could easily be an unlimited unique reaction of the class without breaking anything. And even then I doubt it would come up very often.
I can think of a few more minor issues in addition to those points but I think that covers the big stuff.
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Possible fixes without doing a huge redesign:
The caster chassis is fine by itself. It's the very beaseline for a full caster, but still fine. What's lacking is the stuff that's supposed to be "make" the Witch: Familiars and Hexes.
The witch (barely!) gets a few unique tricks she can pull off with her familiar. I honestly think Familiar Master does a better job at making familiars feel more unique. If I was playing a Witch and wanted to focus on my familiar, I'd probably take that archetype instead of the actual Witch familiar feats - which also means any other class/character can do the same. So the Witch's familiar needs a bit more. Maybe a few witch only familiar/master abilities?
Hexes are in a weird spot right now. I do believe the Witch is meant to use a lot of Hexes and the existance of unlimited cantrip Hexes points in that direction. But then why are the Hex cantrips so bad? Maybe there's just too many so not all of them could have the same quality. But even the best ones (which I guess would be Fervor and Evil Eye?) aren't anywhere near good enough to be class-defining. No option to pick up more than one Hex Cantrip under any circumstance is also weird. Maybe it would be better to give all Witches one strong Hex cantrip as baseline (like a slightly buffed Evil Eye or something) and let them choose another one whenever they get a Lesson feat. Also buff the weaker/more situational ones, of course.
As for actual focus spells, I do believe the class desperately needs those to define itself. That's why it's so weird that you don't really get any (useful) unless you buy them via feat. I would have expected the witch to be more along the line of Oracles or Runelords when it comes to focus spells: Starting with at least two focus spells (Hello, Basic Lesson + Cackle!) and maybe getting the refocus feats for free. That wouldn't be "unique" design anymore at this point, but if you add it to improved Hex cantrips that are actually worth using often and maybe a more fleshed out familiar, it might just make the Witch class stand on its own.
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Final thoughts:
I think - beyond the sorely needed errata for exploration minions and the Witch archetype familiar - those things need to happen in an APG errata. And by "those things" I don't mean precisely my suggestions but "some things to make the Witch feel like a whole unique class". Adding them later in another book (via class archetype, new feats or similar things) just makes that book mandatory and half the class in the APG obsolete. And that's why I feel these issues need to be brought up when talking about a Witch errata.
The caster chassis is fine by itself. It's the very beaseline for a full caster, but still fine. What's lacking is the stuff that's supposed to be "make" the Witch: Familiars and Hexes.
With the introduction of the flexible caster archetype, I was thinking maybe witch could get a subclass option where they go down to 2 slots but their focus point pool and recovery are doubled. They would still need better options, but at least you've got something much closer to the 1e witch with a unique niche to build from.
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Except people do complain about the Oracle with a decent amount of regularity... The Cleric (especially Warpriest) and Wizard too, all single tradition classes... and from what I've seen most people are fine with the Sorcerer in general and more complain about specific options being bad.
Summoner works pretty differently, but I've seen plenty of varied opinions about it... but similar thoughts on the Magus in general.
Seems like if there's any commonality to be drawn here it's that the post-Core classes in general are probably designed a bit more conservatively than their Core counterparts rather than any pick a tradition conspiracy.
Instead it makes a lot more sense to look at the design process the witch went through.
The class was built as a 4-slot caster and hastily redesigned into a 3-slot caster in a short window between the playtest and when the book finished the writing/development phase. It chassis was never properly updated to reflect this and as part of the change the focus spells it started with were turned into feats.
And then we look at some of the main complaints about the class and we see... people talking about familiars (a point of contention for the whole life of PF2), people talking about its weak chassis and people talking about how it lacks a strong identity and feels really pushed into a specific level 2 feat because of that. All of which relate directly back to that design process.
I feel like that makes a lot more sense than some hidden agenda someone at Paizo has to turn pick-a-list spellcasters into trap options that they forgot to do to every pick-a-list spellcaster except the Witch.
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Possible fixes without doing a huge redesign:What's lacking is the stuff that's supposed to be "make" the Witch: Familiars and Hexes.
The witch (barely!) gets a few unique tricks she can pull off with her familiar. I honestly think Familiar Master does a better job at making familiars feel more unique. If I was playing a Witch and wanted to focus on my familiar, I'd probably take that archetype instead of the actual Witch familiar feats - which also means any other class/character can do the same. So the Witch's familiar needs a bit more. Maybe a few witch only familiar/master abilities?
Hexes are in a weird spot right now. I do believe the Witch is meant to use a lot of Hexes and the existance of unlimited cantrip Hexes points in that direction. But then why are the Hex cantrips so bad? Maybe there's just too many so not all of them could have the same quality. But even the best ones (which I guess would be Fervor and Evil Eye?) aren't anywhere near good enough to be class-defining. No option to pick up more than one Hex Cantrip under any circumstance is also weird. Maybe it would be better to give all Witches one strong Hex cantrip as baseline (like a slightly buffed Evil Eye or something) and let them choose another one whenever they get a Lesson feat. Also buff the weaker/more situational ones, of course.
As for actual focus spells, I do believe the class desperately needs those to define itself. That's why it's so weird that you don't really get any (useful) unless you buy them via feat. I would have expected the witch to be more along the line of Oracles or Runelords when it comes to focus spells: Starting with at least two focus spells (Hello, Basic Lesson + Cackle!) and maybe getting the refocus feats for free. That wouldn't be "unique" design anymore at this point, but if you add it to improved Hex cantrips that are actually worth using often and maybe a more fleshed out familiar, it might just make the Witch class stand on its own.
Familiar: Some witch only would maybe help, but as familiars are next to useless in my opinion, I'm not sure it's going to help much. I feel hexes are more the defining witch trait, as anyone can have a familiar. The only way to get the witch a useful familiar is if you would treat it almost like an animal companion with familiar traits, but stuck at low level unless you invest in feats like beastmaster.
Cantrip hexes: Have one fixed to the Patron and one free choice. Skip the minute immunity. You can only cast one hex per round, that is limitation enough. Simple fixes next to that could make the cantrips better. Evil eye has one target on 1st level, 2 when you get a greater lesson, 3 when you get a major lesson. etc. Clinging Ice would be fine if you could use it every round. Stoke the heart is fine as is.
Focus points & Spells: Automatic refocus and starting with basic lesson/Cackle would be a big help. Hexes are the defining trait. Same as with the Oracle with the curses. It is what I believe is the defining trait for the Oracle. Changing to make the focus on hexes a lot stronger would be giving the Witch it's own place. Oracle and (divine) witch are still different enough to want one or the other.
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We all mostly agree that the Witch is among the weaker classes, yes?
No. The people who don't feel this way just avoid the "Witch sux and here's why" threads at this point.
The subreddit also does not agree, FWIW.
And the same arguments happen every time to the point that it's painful
> "Dirge of doom is better than Evil Eye!!!!"
> "Yeah, after 25% of the game is over and they can't use it with Inspire Courage"
> "Yes they can! Harmonize!"
> "The three action activity that means the Bard can't move? I mean how is that not apples and oranges? Also why are we comparing a borderline too strong Class to the Witch."
> "Well yeah but baseline Arcane Witch is not as good as Familiar Wizard!"
> "That's pretty subjective and depends entirely on what the Witch takes as they level since their Feat stacks are different, and even then the Wizard has to take Familiar Master to get accesss to the same Familiar opportunities (Improved Familiar)"
And on, and on, and on.
It's just tiresome and to be honest, there's usually familiar voices in those threads making the same arguments.
Do I think out-of-combat familiar's need guidance/rules? Absolutely. That's why I wrote some.
Is Basic Lesson a bit problematic as a choice at level 2 considering Eldritch Nails is a thing? Are there some "weaker choices"? Sure.
But Arguably things like Cleave from the Barbarian are just as weak and I don't see people making broad stroke statements about Barbs being terrible because a few options aren't as "good" as others (spirit for instance).
If people here have a consensus about the Witch being weak, the consensus should be that of exactly the size of people that believe so here and not a grander expression of the overall views of the Class across tables as a whole.
FWIW :)
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@Blave Thank you. I agree with every last word of that.
As for class identity, I could absolutely get behind the idea of a combat capable familiar. Probably with a significant cost though so as not to replace Animal Companion and Eidolon.
While other classes can get a familiar, a Witch can get a familiar that actually helps them defeat enemies.
Some ideas I have for unique familiar abilities:
Spell Throwing: prerequisite - spell delivery: Requirements - familiar in your space, you cast a spell that does not target the caster. The familiar then uses two actions to move and the spell is then cast originating from that position.
Spell Sharing (stolen from D&D 3.5): Requirements - your familiar is in your space, you cast a spell that targets yourself and is not a morph or polymorph spell. The familiar is also affected by the spell. If the spell has an area either you or the familiar is targeted, but not both.
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Currently you are able (at level 10, I think) to have your familiar cast one spell per day. Having them cast Animal Form is an interesting choice. It (probably?) allows your familiar to act a lot like an Animal Companion, while (probably?) still letting them keep their normal familiar abilities. The problem being that casting Animal Form 5 levels lower than your caster level doesn't really make for a useful combatant against significant enemies of your level.
One thing I worry about when designing a combat capable familiar is combining the combat power of an Animal Companion with the abilities of a familiar (notably flying and fast movement, though the sense upgrades are good too). I don't want the familiar to be more powerful than Animal Companion or Eidolon. At least not on a permanent basis (or frequently enough to be used on every battle).
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As for class identity, I could absolutely get behind the idea of a combat capable familiar. Probably with a significant cost though so as not to replace Animal Companion and Eidolon.
While other classes can get a familiar, a Witch can get a familiar that actually helps them defeat enemies.
Some ideas I have for unique familiar abilities:
Spell Throwing: prerequisite - spell delivery: Requirements - familiar in your space, you cast a spell that does not target the caster. The familiar then uses two actions to move and the spell is then cast originating from that position.
Spell Sharing (stolen from D&D 3.5): Requirements - your familiar is in your space, you cast a spell that targets yourself and is not a morph or polymorph spell. The familiar is also affected by the spell. If the spell has an area either you or the familiar is targeted, but not both.
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Currently you are able (at level 10, I think) to have your familiar cast one spell per day. Having them cast Animal Form is an interesting choice. It (probably?) allows your familiar to act a lot like an Animal Companion, while (probably?) still letting them keep their normal familiar abilities. The problem being that casting Animal Form 5 levels lower than your caster level doesn't really make for a useful combatant against significant enemies of your level.
One thing I worry about when designing a combat capable familiar is combining the combat power of an Animal Companion with the abilities of a familiar (notably flying and fast movement, though the sense upgrades are good too). I don't want the familiar to be more powerful than Animal Companion or Eidolon. At least not on a permanent basis (or frequently enough to be used on every battle).
The way you do that is by looking at ways that Specific Familiars can already contribute to combat.
Imp has basically a better version of True Strike (or any roll really), Faerie Dragon has an AoE version of Slow (3rd level spell) that can target potentially up to 5 individuals (but vertical down, 4 is in the cards, and two has a pretty high chance if at least 2 targets are adjacent to each other).
Dweomercat Cub has some pretty sick abilities too.
Shadow Familiar might be honestly the strongest Specific Familiar yet considering it actually can make a Strike (though not a true one) and can bestow Enfeebled (a fantastic condition).
So what can be done is you make it so every Witch doesn't have to go for these Specific Familiars, because they are supposed to be options and not mandatory choices (and they also flavor-wise don't fit with every class).
So for starters, a bunch of new Specific Familiars helps, so variety is there for choices, but it's also the basis that I used to build Specialty Familiars (basically a "buy as you go" style of Specific Familiar).
Specific Familiars are basically a "package deal" on familiar abilities. You'll notice Faerie Dragon costs 6, gets a breath weapon, and also has Manual Dexterity, Flier, Touch telepathy, Speech, Amphibious, and Darkvision.
That's 6 abilities total and the Breath Weapon.
This indicates the design pattern we can use for familiars in that if we lock in abilities that cannot be changed (lack of variability) in order to create a cohesive Familiar, we can then potentially add "special stuff" that the familiar can do.
Now for the most part, I think abilities should be in the same vein as Faerie Dragon/Imp/Dweomercat Cub/Shadow.
I think there's a lot to work with coloring inside the lines as it is, the building blocks are there they just need to be broken down and reconstructed in ways that allow Witches (and other Classes with Familiars) to shape their familiar into something that helps exemplify their character concept better.
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Count me in as one who wants clarifications on if the Witch MCA is supposed to grants 1 ability less than a WITCH Familiar does or if it's supposed to be 1 ability less than a GENERIC Familiar.
Not that my opinion matters but I run it as Witch Familiar Abilities -1 and NOT Generic Familiar Abilities -1.
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Count me in as one who wants clarifications on if the Witch MCA is supposed to grants 1 ability less than a WITCH Familiar does or if it's supposed to be 1 ability less than a GENERIC Familiar.
Not that my opinion matters but I run it as Witch Familiar Abilities -1 and NOT Generic Familiar Abilities -1.
"Argument from balance" resolves it pretty easily for me. You get one less cantrip than other casting dedications, and a familiar with one ability can give you a cantrip back. Otherwise, it outperforms Familiar Master and every other caster dedication.
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No. The people who don't feel this way just avoid the "Witch sux and here's why" threads at this point.
We all mostly agree that the Witch is among the weaker classes, yes?
Fair enough. :)
FWIW, I'd be interested on your take on the matter. How does the Witch compare to the other caster classes? What sets it apart and makes it better (or at least their equal)?
It's absolutely possible that I might be missing things.
If you're willing to share your views, I promise not to argue your points unless you want me to.
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If you're willing to share your views, I promise not to argue your points unless you want me to.
If we don't retread the same ground, I have no problem with counter-points :)
Here are my personal takes
1. The main component the Witch brings to the table above all else is the flexibility it has with Action economy because it has the most 1 action abilities to use in a single combat, has Cackle which allows for a free action sustain, and command for their familiar among their Spell options. Being able to Sustain, cast new Hex, command faerie dragon to use breath weapon is a potent turn. Being able to Summon and sustain a hex (or sustain a command of an already cast summon even) is something no other Class can even do for most of the game. Yes, bards have 1 action cantrips, but Bards also don't have familiars, don't have free action sustains, can't use more than one composition at a time (for the most part) and do not really flex into the debuff+buff space as well as the Witch at least until they get DoD (which requires 6th level and a Class Feat). This highly flexible action economy is difficult to measure in discussion and on paper, because its value basically adheres entirely to how the Witch chooses to act in their given combats, what types of creatures they are facing, etc. I think it is the most powerful part of the witch that ultimately gets overlooked because of mechanical insights people find with the rest of the class.
2. It is the best familiar class and if you take the most powerful options in that space and your GM allows even a modicum of what a Class Feat (or in the case of specific familiars, multiple Class Feats usually) should be capable of doing, can be a very potent entry for power. There is no official rule that says what familiars can do out of combat, and that is what makes it so difficult to measure their value as it will come down to table variation on what GMs will allow what. Not only that, but forcing every Witch to take Faerie Dragon/Imp/etc. just to be "good" isn't "fun", nor is it very supportive of the way people make and use companions. Every single player I've had with a pet (every game I've played at least 1) has always held it as a treasured companion. The notion that some players should "kill" their companion to get a more powerful one feels evil and wrong. Yet, a Cat with Darkvision, Flier, Climber, and Burrower doesn't inherently have any value outside of potentially scounting (and that's subject to GMs ruling).
So in short, table variation is the biggest reason that both of the above factor in to Witch opinions, and one of the reasons that people can seem so divided on the Witch as a whole in terms of power. And that IS something worth discussing. Table variation should not have such a grandose effect on viability/value.
That's ultimately what lead me to develop the familiar rules I did, because it allowed Witches to take Familiars that suited their character without feeling compelled due to power constraints (and because there is a SERIOUS lack of options in the familiar space IMO as well as personality).
Now, is the Class perfect? No. My main gripes are that some of the options are undoubtedly not even at all. Basic Lesson I agree is a defacto "winner" at level 2, and Eldritch Nails is IMO maybe one of the worst Class Feats ever printed if only for the fact that you can't even really use the Hex portion of the ability with a Hex at the level you can take the feat! (even if it wasn't a straight-up downgrade to just casting the hex).
Theoretically, class support could help with some aspects, and a smidge of errata are the most I realisitcally think it needs at all (Basic Lesson for free at level 1 with the Pet ability moving to a level 1 Class Feat for instance). And to be honest, if you could actually invest in Familiars I don't even know if the errata is needed personally. I've had a lot of witches at my tables at this point, most of them seem pretty happy and feel relatively good with their parties (especially in Skill contributions). And I think a Witch built to its maximum is at least as good as other casters. But a Witch built to its minimum or thematically to their liking? It can be in a pretty bad spot and not by virtue of "picking wrong on purpose" but simply "picking what fits my character".
And when you have limited mechanically good options for "picking what fits my character", that is a bit of an issue.
But all that said, I think the Witch is actually in a reasonably good spot with the exception of some underpowered/underrealized options being major culprits for contributing to that. That and the very underutilized Familiar system (which is actually IMO really good as a base, it just needed to be fleshed out).
/endrant
:)
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No. The people who don't feel this way just avoid the "Witch sux and here's why" threads at this point.
We all mostly agree that the Witch is among the weaker classes, yes?
I don't avoid such threads as a result of not agreeing that Witch is likely the weakest combat class printed so far - it absolutely is. I avoid them because they have stopped leading towards anything productive. Rehashing the same arguments and devolving into personal attacks.
'Alchemist sux' threads get the same response from me at this point too.
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Put me in the camp of severely disappointed with how the witch turned out but generally trying not to add my negativity to witch threads. Particularly on reddit. The class just didn't turn out in any way how I hoped (and surveyed), so I'm generally working to get over myself and just let it exist.
I will say, however, that of the three times a player has asked me to write their character out so they can make a new one, two were playing witches and were dramatically unsatisfied with them. I've not yet had anyone play more than three levels as a witch without switching to something else. To me that says a lot more than my theorycraft ideas.
Truthfully, few tweaks and they're decent. Boost a couple hex cantrips and give them the basic lesson for free. Add more cantrips and feats to optionally pick more. Add feats like a sorcerer for some very limited tradition crossing/muddling. Clarify some familiar questions.
Or! Just give them a fourth spell slot back and leave them as is. I don't think that would be unfair at all.
But I don't really know. I love the witch but it needs a hand.
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@Midnightoker Thanks for that! I really appreciate it!
I will say that I haven't followed other "Witch sux" topics closely so I apologize in advance if I do happen to reiterate what has been said at some point.
What you describe as an "optimized" Witch is probably indeed a good caster. And I say "probably" because I simply have yet to see such a Witch in action, not because I find it unlikely.
The thing is, nearly all that comes from class feats: Cackle, Specific Familiars, good Hexes. And to keep using the Hexes with high frequency you also need the improved refocus feats. At this point, you've most likely spend nearly all your class feats up to level 12 with little variety.
I acknowledge that good class feats are - of course - part of a class's strength. But I LOVE doing weird/stupid stuff so I rarely play a character with less then one or two archetypes. That often leaves little (sometimes no) room for class feats. If I do that on a Witch, the class is nearly gone. What remains is basically a buffed familiar and a cantrip hex. And the worst caster chassis in the game.
That's what I mean when I say the class lacks identity. Having any other caster as a base class gives me so much more - both in flavor and in mechanical power.
And honestly, it doesn't even look like your opinion and mine diverge all that much. You said yourself that you'd welcome Basic Lesson for free and that you want more meaningful things to do with your familiar. I have pushed it a bit further in my rough suggestions - maybe even too far with free imporovd refocusing - but the general direction is basically the same, no?
Also by no means do I think the Witch is really bad or unplayable or something like that. I just feel it needs a little help in finding where it belongs.
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And honestly, it doesn't even look like your opinion and mine diverge all that much. You said yourself that you'd welcome Basic Lesson for free and that you want more meaningful things to do with your familiar.
Well not free per se, I just feel like the initial Focus spell probably should have been Basic Lesson instead of Pet Cache and I mostly have an issue with Basic Lesson being a choice compared to other options.
Generally, options that compete should have relatively reasonable parity. Pet Cache to me has reasonable parity with level 1/2 Class Feats, and Basic Lesson does not, which to me is the bigger issue, not so much that Witch needs Basic Lesson in order to be at the appropriate power level, but that Witch's that do not select Basic Lesson put themselves at a (at least perceived) lower power level.
but I guess that distinction wasn't necessarily clear.
I have pushed it a bit further in my rough suggestions - maybe even too far with free imporovd refocusing - but the general direction is basically the same, no?
I think the Class could benefit from restructuring or definition in some cases.
AKA the average power level based on choices of the class could use more "leveling off" as opposed to the peaks and valleys that currently exist, but I fully believe the peaks should absolutely not be that much (if at all) higher.
Also by no means do I think the Witch is really bad or unplayable or something like that. I just feel it needs a little help in finding where it belongs.
Thing is to me, the identity is pretty clear to me. They do not at all feel like other Classes in play and I do not feel like "most flexible caster action economy" is not an identity. To me, the fact that a Witch has the most flexible/variable spell options (both focus and spell list) in terms of choice and action cost is the niche it fills (as well as having a Familiar).
But alas, these are things that are difficult to measure. The Witch that could cackle to sustain their Summon and Summon another creature, and then on turn three cast Evil Eye, Sustain, Sustain has something no other Class has the ability to do.
One of the biggest complaints that is made about Casters is "what do I do with my 3rd action?"
The Witches at my tables have never had to even ask that question, they have multiple options even outside the standard ones that apply to everyone.
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But Arguably things like Cleave from the Barbarian are just as weak and I don't see people making broad stroke statements about Barbs being terrible because a few options aren't as "good" as others (spirit for instance).
The problem with the Witch isn't that it has a couple bad feats though, it's that every discussion about the witch tends to come down to some specific feats you're 'supposed' to take.
Like last time I made a druid (and tbh even the summoner I'm playing right now) I basically just picked options completely on a whim and the character turned out amazing.
But with the witch it's always someone popping up in the thread to say "okay so if you take basic lesson (be sure to pick the correct lesson) and cackle (and maybe one or two other specific feats too) and play in this very specific way you're actually only a little bit underpowered, just so long as you pick the right patron at level 1 too" and somehow that's supposed to be 'proof' that the class is actually totally fine and that you need to make so many specific choices isn't a giant red flag or anything.
Like. Okay sure you can do some neat things with Cackle and Elemental Betrayal or whatever. That's cool and all but what if I take archaeologist dedication at 2 and trap finder at 4 instead.
If the answer is not to do that because the witch needs those feats or its chassis doesn't have enough oomph on its own... then I mean that seems like an argument against the class, not for it.
Like, honestly you're defending the class but the points you're making seem to do a really good job summarizing why it's in a little bit of a bad place from over here.
I kinda like the idea of phase familiar being a general reaction Witches have as a focus cantrip, like Summoner's boost eidolon.
I'd just remove it from the power balance equation at all, honestly, and let Witches in practice have this ridiculously robust familiar.
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I mean I don't really see issues with it at the table is the thing.
Even when characters don't pick Basic Lesson it's not like they have issues being empowered at the table.
I feel maybe people are looking at these (to me minor) critiques I'm pointing out and taking that as an indictment on the class as a whole. It's really not.
The truth is, I have had the pleasure of running games for witches (divine, arcane, occult, and primal) with varying choices on feats across levels 1-7 and have at no point been told by a Witch that they felt "weak" or that they could not meaningfully contribute to the game.
A minor flaw is just that, a minor flaw.
In Pathfinder 2, a minor flaw not only doesn't really disrupt the game, but in my personal experience can be completely unnoticed by all.
So in essence, if I have made any of my points seem like "mountains", rest assured, I consider them molehills in terms of playing the game.
And then of course, I have just started offering my players more robust familiar options recently, so the "familiars are no fun/suck/lame" stuff doesn't really apply to my games anymore (nor did they ever really, I'm not a GM that says your familiar does nothing in exploration mode because there aren't rules to cover it, that's sort of my job to adjudicate).
Not to invalidate how people feel, the biggest issue with the Witch is that table variation influences the Class a lot. What works for my tables might not work for others, but the fact that different tables can play familiars and combats in different ways makes it difficult to agree on what's what.
In essence, when I am pointing out the "flaws" above, I am trying to say "I see where you are coming from even if I do not agree" and that in the event that changes were made, here is what I could see Paizo/others doing to help move things into a new space.
Like I also think the Swashbuckler is flawed in that you can "make a wrong choice" when leveling up your Skills (not choosing panache skills makes you inherently worse at being a Swashbuckler), but that doesn't mean the Class is at all unplayable, bad, has no identity, etc. etc. It's just a flaw the Class design has, that it removes player choice in respect to choosing your skills, even if realistically a Swashbuckler would probably prioritize those skills most of the time. The "houserule" I had suggested for that was basically a Skill Feat of appropriate level (that Skillful Lessons could select) that increases proficiency of a Skill to alleviate the burden and open up your much needed Skill increases to non-panache options.
But again, that's not an indictment, it's just a perceived flaw.
Sometimes perceived flaws don't have good solutions or solutions to the flaws can cause other flaws.
For instance, Basic Lesson at level 1 is a bit problematic if someone is Human and then takes Cackle.
That effectively maps to a 2 Focus Point pool at level 1 with a pretty solid Focus Spell. As far as I know, that would be pretty dang strong for a Witch. I would argue it might be a bit too strong.
But then again, if it were too strong, that would just end up being another "minor flaw" and ultimately would have little impact on the game.
I encourage people to modify things as they please because one of the best parts of PF2 honestly is that it is so homebrew friendly if you follow the design patterns in the game (which are basically all but spelled out in how they are constructed).
I have been programmed most of my life to just look at the flaws in things. I wish I wasn't like that, I feel like a joy thief and it sucks, so even if I like something I can always find flaws (I personally like Witch and Swashbuckler a LOT). I'm all for discussing flaws, but I think I could find a flaw in just about every class in the game as written right now.
Heck, Bard has no business getting Expert Perception at level 1, nor does it deserve better proficiencies in weapons than its caster brethren. It also pidgeonholes people into spending the exact same actions every turn for extremely repetitive game play, which is not inherently fun for players IME. Is it strong? No doubt. But I think, like all classes, Bard has notable flaws in its design that deserve as much scrutiny as anything else.
OP's frustration with Familiars and familiar rules in general makes a lot of sense. It puts the burden on GMs to come up with random stuff, hold to it, and then potentially put themselves in bad spots if they allow something that eventually gets abused (Lassie moments getting to advanced), but the alternative is "your familiar can't do anything outside of combat" which is equally uncool.
I'm not really sure what my point is, but I do enjoy the discussions on these forums when we dive into the logistics of what makes a class tick and where the seams are, and I think if most Witch (or any class) threads went that route instead of sticking to the broadstroke statements and moving on to "fixing" things, we'd be better for it.
What "fixes" things for one table will generate flaws or break things at another. It's up to each of us to decide where that line is for our tables, but we have to remember that it doesn't apply to everyone.
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Rise, thread!
Playing a witch in Strength of Thousands. I took Improved Familiar instead of Basic Lesson. I don't regret the decision-- my familiar has been incredibly effective and fun at my table-- I do really wish I had a credible use of my focus point. Getting one or two feats for free would do a lot to make the class better. Cackle and Basic Lesson are both pretty good choices.
Witch is definitely one of those PF2 classes that has a hard time affording everything you really want.
Do we know if errata for the APG is coming any time soon?
Regarding APG errata, Aaron Shanks wrote this 2/12:
#Soon? All sorts of things are stuck in ports. The reprint of the APG is not yet in the warehouse, as of the last report. Thus the unavailable status. When it is and when we are shipping it, we will release the errata on the FAQ's page. (We have to make sure all our license partners get the errata too.) I'm just waiting on the green light from the warehouse to say they are here and I can promote them.
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Do we know if errata for the APG is coming any time soon?
Surprisingly, we do! ... Well, kinda sorta...
Looks like the they already did a reprint of the APG, including errata, but it's stuck somewhere in logistics hell right now.
And they still decided to withhold releasing the errata until they have the new print run in their warehouse and start shipping it.
Didn't I hear somewhere (GenCon?) they were thinking about how to better get FAQs and errata out to players? Not holding those back when they are done would be a step in the right direction, I think.
Edit: Ninja'd
Aside from the issue of not having a familiar, I feel like the Psychic does a lot of what people are wanting the Witch to do. Even the two different styles, logic and emotion, feel a lot like what patrons could have offered.
The Psychic may launch weak if the playtest doesn't power things up significantly, but it feels like a Psychic that picks up some Witch via an archetype could help a lot of builds feel better.
So therefore, the Witch class as a whole needs to compare as slightly less powerful than any of the other casting classes. At least as far as HP, Armor, casting slots, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, and the like are concerned. The room to shine is in the unique features such as class feats, familiar abilities, and focus spells.Strongly disagree with this, although maybe its not worded as carefully as you intended.
Very likely bad wording on my part.
Witch shouldn't be better than wizard/druid/cleric/bard but be roughly equal in overall power with them but express the power differently. i.e maybe they get less spells than a wizard, but make up for it with stronger focus spell options or support tools.
That sounds a lot better and more accurate to what I am thinking. Witch shouldn't be trying to compete directly with these other classes. If we measure the Druid by how good it is at doing the job of a Bard that wouldn't make sense. So why would it make sense to measure Witch vs Bard or Witch vs Wizard that way? But people insist on doing it anyway - and of course the Witch comes up lacking.
But at the same time, I think there are definitely some areas where Witch class lacks in power. Most notably the 2nd level feat slot. Having that slot be occupied with a primary class feature means it is hard for a Witch to take any archetypes - especially class archetypes that can't have their dedication feat delayed to 4th level.
Witch shouldn't be trying to compete directly with these other classes. If we measure the Druid by how good it is at doing the job of a Bard that wouldn't make sense. So why would it make sense to measure Witch vs Bard or Witch vs Wizard that way? But people insist on doing it anyway - and of course the Witch comes up lacking.
The Witch is competing with those other casters because it shares their schools of magic. If I'm looking to cast Occult spells and care at all about optimization I'm not sure that Bard and Witch are on the same planet. A Divine Witch sure can't fill a Cleric's shoes. The Druid eats a Primal Witch for breakfast and gets a pet. The only possible slot for a Witch to edge somebody out is Arcane and Wizard and Sorcerer close that door too.
The Witch is, arguably, a flavor win but simply can't back it up.
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Witch shouldn't be trying to compete directly with these other classes. If we measure the Druid by how good it is at doing the job of a Bard that wouldn't make sense. So why would it make sense to measure Witch vs Bard or Witch vs Wizard that way? But people insist on doing it anyway - and of course the Witch comes up lacking.The Witch is competing with those other casters because it shares their schools of magic. If I'm looking to cast Occult spells and care at all about optimization I'm not sure that Bard and Witch are on the same planet. A Divine Witch sure can't fill a Cleric's shoes. The Druid eats a Primal Witch for breakfast and gets a pet. The only possible slot for a Witch to edge somebody out is Arcane and Wizard and Sorcerer close that door too.
The Witch is, arguably, a flavor win but simply can't back it up.
Well, yeah, if you insist that the familiar can't scout then the witch doesn't have much left. But it feels weird to say the witch is underpowered in one thread while saying letting them use their signature class feature to the fullest is overpowered.
Familiar scouting gives the witch a super solid niche.
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Familiar scouting gives the witch a super solid niche.
If it needs a familiar to make a niche for itself, I think that by itself is saying there is an issue. Is having an emergency food supply a niche now? ;)
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Well, yeah, if you insist that the familiar can't scout then the witch doesn't have much left. But it feels weird to say the witch is underpowered in one thread while saying letting them use their signature class feature to the fullest is overpowered.
Familiar scouting gives the witch a super solid niche.
Except that a Witch isn't the only class that can get a familiar. Heck, you could take the Witch's dedication feat and get one on a Bard or Psychic if you really wanted one.
Familiar scouting gives the witch a super solid niche.If it needs a familiar to make a niche for itself, I think that by itself is saying there is an issue. If having an emergency food supply a niche now? ;)
Joking aside, the familiar is their signature thing. If they were a wizard it would be their spell book. If they were a cleric it would be their connection to their god. What should their niche be if not the familiar? Focus cantrips? Bard has those. Prepared casting? Wizard has that locked down.
Except that a Witch isn't the only class that can get a familiar. Heck, you could take the Witch's dedication feat and get one on a Bard or Psychic if you really wanted one.Well, yeah, if you insist that the familiar can't scout then the witch doesn't have much left. But it feels weird to say the witch is underpowered in one thread while saying letting them use their signature class feature to the fullest is overpowered.
Familiar scouting gives the witch a super solid niche.
The witch is the only class that doesn't lose a week of downtime if their familiar dies, though. Nor does it come packaged with the guilt of getting a little furry animal killed. In practice that is a huge difference in how willing a player is to send it into danger.
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So coming to this a bit late, but if you wanted to make some quick and dirty house rules, most people could get behind this?
- Give Basic Lesson as a free class feature at level 1
- Be pretty supportive about familiars doing stuff and being a lively junior character
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Considering that you get your familiar back every day, does final sacrifice still have the evil tag if you target your familiar? You are killing a non-mindless creature, but it's effectively immortal so is it really killing it?
If a witch character kept sacrificing their familiar regularly, I might have the witch's patron inquire as to what exactly is going on here. It's a roleplaying opportunity, not a punishment.