I enjoy the ranger (melee, dual weapon). Past lvl 10 it gets to be really interesting. Master monster hunter, double prey. Extra die from sneak, extra dies from elemental runes, a witch that adds status damage. Mass haste is often used in our party, meaning move and full attack. Master monster hunter with max Nature (wis second stat) gives loads of information. In a party with a rogue, were on par with damage. Soul forger with planar pain against resistances or to hit weaknesses in tough fights. At 18th level having 6 attacks at -2 is quite nice. Had to pick a fight with a white dragon not long ago, the bow a secondary weapon also worked quite nicely. Ok, lesser runes, but coincidentally a fire rune... As for the changes, as far as I read, I don't see much that would've impacted my choices. They sound fine, I might have picked up some focus spells which I haven't done for this character.
And even these rules are just guidelines, and the dice are a huge influence in the outcome of any fight. Last week our party of Taldoran heroes (6 chars, 18th level) faced some devil's in an arena fight. 5 rounds of buffing before the fight, both parties made good use of that. A pit fiend, two apostate devils (elite), two cornugons (elite). Would be an extreme encounter for a rested party, but we'd already lost quite some resources in earlier encounters. The dice rolled and the outcome was a walkover from our side. They started out with a meteor swarm and two fireballs that did hardly any damage. And from there it was downhill for them, even after a successful dominate from their side and the pit fiend just ignoring the prismatic sphere around him.
Not sure why people think a bard is boring or a one trick pony. Lingering composition means you need to use you Inspire once or twice in a combat. Get swashbuckler dedication and get one for all, antagonize if you feel you want some action, guardians deflection if you want to help your martials. Don't be afraid to stand close to the martials. With this you have a lot of possible actions you can choose from (composition, one for all, intimidate, attack) with some spells on top of that. Occult list is super for combat effectiveness. Command, invis, hideous laughter, roaring applause, dispel magic, synesthesia etc. Or just use damage spells if that is more your thing.
I would say that medical researcher replaces alchemical crafting for those few items that can be created (as named in the feat). It would be illogical to require medical researcher (medicine) and alchemical crafting to create items that could be created with alchemical crafting by itself. You'll still need the formula and a lab to create the items, but no need for crafting or the alchemical crafting skill. A case of specific overriding general. Or otherwise to bad to be true.
Having gone from 3.5 -> pf1 -> 5e -> pf2 as a player, I think that that pf2 as a player is easier and more enjoyable than pf1 and 5e. In pf1 I needed excel to keep track of all the different bonuses which was a pain. 5e is just b@+~!%#s with multiclassing and options. Pf2 has lots of numbers, but when you understand the system, it's actually easy to get to the final numbers. Level, stat, proficiency plus up to three separate bonuses: item, status and circumstance. While we use foundry to play (huge help, even when actually sitting down together) and pathbuilder to create characters (easy to use, because of multiple books as sources of feats and classes) you could well do without for the actual numbers. The fun part for me as a player: lots of optimization options, without making characters that can break the game (either too strong or to weak) if you follow some simple rules. All classes and races are viable, of course some are better than others, but nothing to break the system. Martials and casters are equally strong and useful from low to high. The only thing which bothers me a bit, is that you can't build a class without the three save stats. You can't skip Wis on a char that otherwise wouldn't need it, because that will be surely cause issues.
Eldritch Yodel wrote: The book really makes me want to play a celebrity. It was already unironically one of my favourite archetypes because of its general tone of much of it being "You are a delusional narcissist who thinks they're the center of the universe" which I found beautiful, and the new book has added enough to it to make it properly FA viable whilst maintaining that tone. Ah, now I need to see the book. I have wanted to use the Celebrity archetype, but it didn't have enough body.
SuperBidi wrote: What I dislike about the Flying Blade + Dual Finisher combo is that it's so strong you really have 2 Swashbucklers. Melee Swashbucklers are in a hard spot in terms of efficiency while Flying Blade Swashbucklers are quite fine. It pushes to play with Flying Blade when it's not exactly the basic Swashbuckler build you can imagine. Starting to sound a bit like the magus. I do agree that the wording of flying blade means it will apply to all strikes (melee strike is a strike).
SuperBidi wrote: Roaring Applause is a sustained spell, it asks for hands (otherwise the target can't applause) Not entirely true, as even IRL there a different ways of applauding. From Wiki: The age of the custom of applauding is uncertain, but it is widespread among human cultures. The variety of its forms is limited only by the capacity for devising means of making a noise[1] (e.g., stomping of feet or rapping of fists or hands on a table). Within each culture, however, it is usually subject to conventions.
I'm quite sure that all intelligent being will have a way to applaud. SuperBidi wrote: Now, Roaring Applause is definitely a top spell. So it makes other similar spells look bad. Lvl 6 vs lvl 9? That would look real bad indeed. I believe that fascination part would make up for the difference though.
Gortle wrote: To me fascination is a side effect. The main feature is the loss of actions paying tribute. Which works even if your GM rules that the fascination is broken. In combat, fascination will be broken almost immediately. Then what makes this spell 9th level? It has incapacitation. Targets must do a manipulate action at least once per round. twice even on a success. A 6th level roaring applause (no incapacitation) also has targets (up to 10!) do manipulate actions once per round on failure (sustain). Would removing the fascination as normal not make this a very weak 9th level spell?
Lucerious wrote:
I also feel as if you look at it from the other perspective, you run into issues. Fascinated ends when you or an ally are being attacked. If fascinated ends, would that imply that the spell also ends? Because when affected, you are fascinated -> no longer fascinated -> no longer overwhelmed. But even ending the fascinated status would be weak for this spell (9th level), as a roaring applaus at 6th level would be a better choice, in combat at least. And the spell is already "weakened", because incapacitation.
While the spell is active (duration: until the tributes are done), creatures are fascinated. Normally fascinated ends when a creature or one of its allies is attacked, but in this specific case it sounds as if fascinated does not end as long as the tributes are not done (specific overrides general). There were some older topics on this but short and without agreement. Thoughts?
28d4 @8th lvl or 56d4 when using 6 actions. You'd be lucky to capture 3 creatures in the 6 actions versions as they can see what is coming, most higher level creatures are intelligent enough. Plus you need a way to reposition between rounds (haste). So difficult to setup. 6 actions is a lot. If it's about damage, I'd prefer to go with true target - biting words heightened. And use (true strike or synesthesia) biting words for the second and third instance on the rounds after and direct the damage where I need it. Which can target reflex using the signet. Or just use a spell like spirit song, which as a cone is easier to use (use = get more enemies, so more damage). I only have a high level bard, and she's setup to be very flexible. Can do both support and damage, whichever is needed. Cantrips, one for all, spells, skills. So actions are always at a premium, spending 6 actions to get the most out of inner radiance torrent is just not working for me. Hard to imagine other casters to do have that (6 action) time actually.
Gortle wrote:
Used it with this scaling, dumped the spell for not being useful. Remove this scaling and it gets even worse. Bard doesn't have much reflex options, even so this doesn't work. No need to errata.
BloodandDust wrote:
Totally agree. My Caster (bard) character is setup for both damage and support. High level occult spells have some nice area damage stuff (spirit song, phantasmal calamity). And with a shadow signet, staff of divination (true strike) and biting words (linguist character, lots of languages) she has a good chance to do a lot of damage on bosses even. Some characters in the group have good recall knowledge options. The advantage of Biting words is that you get three attacks for one spells slot, each can be used with true strike and follow up attacks are one action only.
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
My 15th lvl soulforger dual weapon flurry ranger (STR based) also has a bow, and I've developed dex (18). The bow is his worst weapon, but it does have +2 greater striking by now. I can remember only one combat where he actually used the bow. So I agree, concentrate on your main thing, but having a backup never hurts. And about the drawing, again, soulforger solves a lot of issues with that....
In my experience with a dual wielding flurry ranger:
Dual wielding flurry ranger do a shitload of damage. Stand up there and swing. Sentinel helps for the +1 ac of plate. Soulforger helps for damage resistance if you choose that as a power.
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Only one enemy get the effect when you hit multiple targets. Rogue/bard works well for this. Staff of divination for true strike, lingering Dirge of doom, Dread striker and I personally like Biting words, you can get enough languages through multilingual. But your still mostly a bard with more skills (very useful), some more damage with attack spells and some extra useful defensive options like mobility.
Gortle wrote:
Hmmm, triple threat is a bit late for it to actually work. Shame about that. But it works very well at 20th level!!!
Some nice builds:
No rogue flurry ranger? Hmm let's try the dual flickmace flurry ranger barbarian. Add the soulforger dedication. Works better after mighty rage and double prey and gets really nasty at the highest levels.
Gortle wrote:
Lingering Dirge, Circle of protection pre-cast on a martial and bless on the bard, who has actions to extend it sometimes. That's the combo I try to go for. As a bard I like to stay close to the martials anyway. That really shifts the odds.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Exactly. It's not difficult for a bard to use 3 actions, 4 even. That doesn't leave much room for rogue actions. Yet another useful 3rd action, I'd almost say. Certainly not bad to have a strike with sneak as that 3rd action, but that sure won't be something you'll use every turn.
I've played a fighter/cloistered cleric. Smite becomes really strong, if you add a cleric with true strike it's really strong. A bard/rogue is a very useful combination and is very strong in social event, but not much more in combat. You can choose to buff or fight in combat, but both as a bard or as arogue you need your actions. Not do fighter in a dual class will do much to help. Also martial/martial (flurry ranger/rogue...) should not be allowed. Otherwise, playing the DC characters was fun.
Turgan wrote:
And there is even a talisman that can give you sweep so indeed, hammers are better. Or kukris for the trip , dogslicers for the damage, sawtooths also. But in the end the differences are small. Just go with what you want. Btw, until you actually need 2x agile (for sneak, or lvl 18 imposs flurry) you can just use a d8 normal weapon and an agile weapon for the second attack. Warhammer plus light hammer with returning on the LH.
Super strong indeed, but for RP purposes having a FP char walk around normally is also very nice. The char is also a dual wielding ranger, but also a very good medic who works in a hospital sometimes. Walking around normally is a big plus, no more armor or weapons visible. Until a fight starts and all of a sudden the harmless bystander is suddenly a metal played blender.
You might want to check soulforger, which is super useful. Summon and dismiss weapons/armor anytime, way better than QuickDraw for dual wielders. And the powers aren't bad either (once per day). You're already going for Monster hunter, that would have been my next advice. L12 look at double prey. Very useful for hatchet wielders due to sweep. Get a +1 circumstance bonus if you attack a second target with the same weapon.
If you're considering keen icm with true strike, doing it for the second attack is much better than for the first attack, because keen adds little to the first attack, where a 19 can be a crit already. But spell strike is 2 actions already, so the answer would be that keen is not the most effective rune for true strike / spell strike combo.
It's a nice overview, but to actually mean anything you should add why you come to these values, and also which variant of the class you're looking at for these values. Not all barbs do the same damage, same as rogues, same with rangers. Edit: I missed your post where you mentioned to explain the ranking. Would be very useful indeed. I would love to see how a champion would do more damage than a two-weapon flurry ranger. Edit 2: I agree with what I saw elsewhere about tiers also being defined by level. low level play can be a lot different than high level play, on all fronts.
I consider spell attacks spells part of a casters play, and whether you want to use them or not is up to the player. My 14th lvl bard has only one spell attack spell (biting words) but it is a signature spell. She has a shadow signet and a staff of divination (useful both in combat and out of combat). Which spell and levels to use depends totally on the situation and using biting words certainly has its uses. It helps that you get 3 attacks with one 7th level spell, with the second and third attack using only one action (bard are king of one action actions). In short: part of the game, use it or not, but it has it's uses, with or without true strike (although it helps of course).
Captain Morgan wrote: The best is probably double slice into twin takedown. Double Slice doesn't have flourish, right? Not sure why this is an either/or thing. This is indeed the main advantage, get 4 attacks in at 0, 0, -4, -4 (DS, TT) which is a bit better than 0, -2, -4, -4 when doing TT followed by two strikes. Whether the extra Mapless attack is worth the feats depends on what else you gain from the archetype.
Pre-errata AC (nimble: bird) had no problem surviving. Flanker mostly. Went wrong twice at lvl 13 (weakest level for AC) due to wrong positioning. Bird got sandwiched and was gone in a round. But otherwise, with healing available it never went wrong. With the new errata, a nimble AC will still be OK, but you'd need to be more careful. Not sure I'd still want to play one. Maybe on a char that would optimally use it (flurry ranger not being the best char for an AC). I would have preferred a solution where the nimble AC would have stayed as is and the other would have been made stronger. Adding expert/master armor for example. Having comparable or better AC AC to casters is not bad, given the limited options for ACs.
Extradimensional Storage: The armament is stored in an extradimensional space when not in use, and you can Manifest it to summon it into your hands or onto your body. A soulforged armament can be Dropped, Disarmed, or otherwise removed from you, but its soulforged abilities don't function for anyone else, and you can Dismiss the manifestation to return the items to the extradimensional space no matter where the items are. If you die or choose to pass ownership of a soulforged armament to a successor, it loses any soulforged abilities; violating the spirit of the soulforged bond by selling the item tends to have disastrous results. There might be special techniques or rituals by which a determined foe can break your bond with a soulforged item, but otherwise, your ability to Dismiss and Manifest it essentially means it can't be stolen. I think the above implies that Manifesting is actually retrieving it from this extra dimensional storage. So dismiss/manifest needed. But I agree extra clarity could be useful. Simple line mentioning manifest is only possible from the ED storage.
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
When you Manifest Soulforged Armament, you can summon any number of your armaments (you must meet the Requirements for each), and when you Dismiss the effect, you can choose to Dismiss some and not others. You can choose to manifest the essence form of any number of your armaments when you take the action. Each armament can manifest its essence form only once per day. The above part of the rules disagrees with your remark, I would say. When you take the action of manifesting your armament you can choose to manifest the essence form. And to manifest, you need to have your hands free and/or no armor.
The Raven Black wrote: Well. It was fun while it lasted :-D I had already replaced my whip with a staff on my linguist bard for a shadow signet assisted true strike biting words, but it was fun. Also for the primal witch who used my whip for some searing light flankin attacks on synesthesia-ed enemies while blessed... The good old times.
I've chosen planar pain, planar bond and healing grace on my flurry ranger. I've not used them much yet (retrained beastmaster for soul forger @14th level), but in the last extreme encounter two of the three were very useful. Dismissing and manifesting isn't fun, but the added extras are worth the trouble.
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