Every time I think about using a thrown weapon I can't help but compare them to bows, which from my perspective seem just plain better.
Bows have longer reach, equal or better damage dice, dont require you to lose your weapon each strike/have to draw more/get the throwing rune to compensate, get more damaging traits (deadly d10 etc) and, from what i can see, more feat support. What do thrown weapons get? Well, you can add your full strength to damage instead of half like with propulsive, but if you're building around thrown weapons then dexterity is still going to be your primary stat. So even "maxing" strength as a secondary stat means this "extra" damage only gets you +5 damage at 15th/20th level, compared to bows that max out at +2 damage 10 levels earlier. Given that the magus is d8 hd, is an intelligence caster, only has middling saves and the fact that you can only raise 4 stats at a time, you'll probably have to at least partially neglect either strength, your casting stat or wisdom. The most rational choice to neglect is strength in my opinion, because spells are the draw of this class over other martials and will saves are generally very important. That makes the only thing that even slightly compensates for thrown weapon inferiority pretty hard to justify.
Now that said, I'm not pooping on the design of the game and you shouldn't feel the need to get defensive. I'm curious how I can make the concept of a throwing magus work well, where I wont constantly be wishing I'd chosen to use a bow instead. Ive not used thrown weapons or seen them used extensively before, so is there something I've overlooked?
You can have a selection with different enchantments/material.
They are easy to conceal.
They can be used in melee (most of them).
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They all have agile, something which other ranged weapons lack. You also get access to some traits that aren't available with other ranged weapons - a quick glance at the weapon tables on AoN and I can see that the backstabber, forceful, ranged trip, twin are all traits that work at range and are only available on thrown weapons. On top of this, there are a bunch of other traits that are on thrown weapons that are melee-only but still useful to have for when you inevitably get stuck in melee.
I think perhaps the ranged only thrown weapons like javelins should have been better. Melee versatility is great but doesnt sell me on the idea of a throwing magus, because it'd be better to be a "melee magus that can sometimes throw" if using them, meaning primarily strength would be better etc etc and suddenly you're not actually playing a throwing specialized character. Similarly agile and forceful dont appeal much to a magus who is best when spellstriking and doesn't have much to incentivize attacking multiple times (like a fighter, monk, ranger, rogue or barbarian does, either due to higher hit chance, better economy strikes or big chunks of static/precision damage). I also dont think "you can have different ones with different enhancements" is a unique sell for thrown weapons, you could do that with any weapon and generally you'd have to have a generous gm or it'd be costly to have many different magic items.
Its nice that some are small enough to be concealed, I'll grant you that. But the ones like that have even worse damage/range and outside of very rare rp situations concealing weapons almost never comes up.
I have no doubt they'll add a harrow themed hybrid study or feats eventually. Hopefully when they do they'll give the magus more incentive to be throwing themed.
You want to play Gambit.
You beat me to it by 2 mins.
Guess you could say that given paizo's love of harrow themed stuff that this possibility is... on the cards.
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As someone who's currently designing a thrown weapon Magus:
-You have a free hand, which can pull out items in the middle of battle without locking you out of your weapon. An archer can start a fight with a potion or in hand, but will have to use or drop it before shooting
-alternatively, you can use a shield for extra AC; freeing up another cantrip slot and being able to benefit from magical shields, or saving yourself and 8th level feat and carrying a staff in hand, thrown weapon in the other
-you have a melee option should you want it. This is honestly pretty niche since you still proc AoO when casting, but it does let you use feints, lets you get around effects like wind wall that batter away arrows, etc
Imo, it is probably weaker than a bow overall, but lets you interact with items easier.
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Bombs? Is there any place in this world for a bomb-throwing magus?
Mostly there for the silly thought, but I'm also honestly curious.
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Ideally a way of making a non-throwing weapon into a throwing weapon would be good, but as far as I know that ability is limited to the lumberjack archetype with 1h axes, level 14 monks with finesse monk weapons, and a couple of dwarf only unique weapons. Even then, with the exception of a level 26 dwarven artifact (which may be able to be thrown with two hands), the best they can do is replicate a trident.
If there was something to incentivize a dual wielding throwing magus that would be perfect, but as it stands there isnt really anything to incentivize a dual wielding melee magus at this point either. Its more odd that they skipped that when making the hybrid studies than anything else. Arcane cascade only working for melee strikes is extra salt in the wound. If only they had written "melee and thrown weapon strikes", that little boost would have helped.
I dont remember, were the hybrid studies or arcane cascade part of the playtest?
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As someone who's currently designing a thrown weapon Magus:
-You have a free hand, which can pull out items in the middle of battle without locking you out of your weapon. An archer can start a fight with a potion or in hand, but will have to use or drop it before shooting
-alternatively, you can use a shield for extra AC; freeing up another cantrip slot and being able to benefit from magical shields, or saving yourself and 8th level feat and carrying a staff in hand, thrown weapon in the other
-you have a melee option should you want it. This is honestly pretty niche since you still proc AoO when casting, but it does let you use feints, lets you get around effects like wind wall that batter away arrows, etc
Imo, it is probably weaker than a bow overall, but lets you interact with items easier.
This. Slightly weaker in trade for more utility.
I wouldn't underestimate the free hand. Paizo puts weight in getting that option. Being able to hold things (like a staff as mentioned (very useful!), a macguffin, or a downed PC) while fighting is worthwhile IMO. I was going to say a shield first, but that's iffy w/ actions available and when there's Shield w/ zero hands needed.Nor would I underestimate the slight bonus to damage since damage bonuses are incremental in PF2.
And if you get a Finesse throwing weapon, a 14 Str/18 Dex Magus could throw as default then switch to melee when AoOs are involved or when underwater/in severe winds without much penalty. Tougher scenarios in PFS have had portions where bows would be shut down.
Oh yeah, i can see a free hand is invaluable, but that doesn't help for wanting to dual wield throwing weapons. I think I've just fallen for the worst combination of class and fighting style and it cant be helped. The maths is not so off that I'll be useless, but I still feel stupid for noticing something isnt as good and doing it anyway. But I'm ok with that and hopefully they'll add more support for it in the future.
I'm surprised it wasnt pointed out that dual-wielding and to a lesser extent throwing weapon builds got the short end during the playtest for the magus abilities, assuming arcane cascade and hybrid studies were included at that point. But perhaps they just needed to hold something back for future releases.
Oh yeah, i can see a free hand is invaluable, but that doesn't help for wanting to dual wield throwing weapons. I think I've just fallen for the worst combination of class and fighting style and it cant be helped.
I mean kind of. The Magus has no internal support for dual wielding and one of the big perks of thrown weapons is switch hitting, which the Magus is also discouraged from doing because ranged weapons is its own mutually exclusive fighting style.
Also some of the best throwing weapons are good because they're Agile and the Magus isn't the best at leveraging that property either.
Bombs? Is there any place in this world for a bomb-throwing magus?
Mostly there for the silly thought, but I'm also honestly curious.
Well, Bombs are just martial thrown weapons. So I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with Spellstrike as long as you have Starlit Span (or some future option to allow Spellstrike with ranged weapons).
Not sure that I would build an entire character based on it. Those bombs would get expensive. But it would mechanically work.
IMO thrown isn't a good choice as primary weapon for Magus. Thrown is a good option for classes who want a free hand for other actions like fighters and champions with shields or alchemists who wants make more attacks without waste many bombs.
For a Magus, as a class uses many actions maneuvers constantly and can cast without need a free hand I see little benefits to use thrown weapons as their primary weapon choice.
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Pretty much my conclusion too. Its a shame, because my 1e eldritch "archer" throwing magus was great and I was hoping to convert them to 2e without feeling like I was making suboptimal choices, but optimal isn't everything, right?
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-You have a free hand, which can pull out items in the middle of battle without locking you out of your weapon.
There ARE 2 handed thrown weapons. [Bladed Diabolo and Combat Grapnel]
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Ideally a way of making a non-throwing weapon into a throwing weapon would be good
Soulforger - your soulforged weapon can be any weapon, gets thrown over 30 feet and returning without using a slot for a property rune (at least thats one option)
For one minute a day.Ideally a way of making a non-throwing weapon into a throwing weapon would be goodSoulforger - your soulforged weapon can be any weapon, gets thrown over 30 feet and returning without using a slot for a property rune (at least thats one option)
It was for one minute a day only? dangit, okay then it'S no good... my eyes kind of skipped that part
Bombs? Is there any place in this world for a bomb-throwing magus?
Mostly there for the silly thought, but I'm also honestly curious.
Well, Bombs are just martial thrown weapons. So I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with Spellstrike as long as you have Starlit Span (or some future option to allow Spellstrike with ranged weapons).
Not sure that I would build an entire character based on it. Those bombs would get expensive. But it would mechanically work.
Magus/Alchemist sounds like it could be a pretty fun build for a dual-class campaign but doesn't seem like it'd work under normal rules, just wouldn't have enough bombs for it to be viable.
Starlit Span
2)Dual Weapon Warrior
4)Dual Weapon Thrower
6)Force Fang
8)Expansive Spellstrike
10)Dual Weapon Blitz
12)Focus 2
Force Fang is a decent recharge for ranged and a source of focus point, can change to runic impression if desirable.
Expansive Spellstrike is just for Blink Charge for FFXV Noctis Style, thrown the weapon and teleport to it then force fang.
Double Slice and Dual weapon Blitz gives a decent option for spellstrike off turns.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Starlit Span
2)Dual Weapon Warrior
4)Dual Weapon Thrower
6)Force Fang
8)Expansive Spellstrike
10)Dual Weapon Blitz
12)Focus 2Force Fang is a decent recharge for ranged and a source of focus point, can change to runic impression if desirable.
Expansive Spellstrike is just for Blink Charge for FFXV Noctis Style, thrown the weapon and teleport to it then force fang.
Double Slice and Dual weapon Blitz gives a decent option for spellstrike off turns.
Gloaming Shard gives you the Noctis move without spending a feat/spellstrike on it.
Gloaming Shard gives you the Noctis move without spending a feat/spellstrike on it.Starlit Span
2)Dual Weapon Warrior
4)Dual Weapon Thrower
6)Force Fang
8)Expansive Spellstrike
10)Dual Weapon Blitz
12)Focus 2Force Fang is a decent recharge for ranged and a source of focus point, can change to runic impression if desirable.
Expansive Spellstrike is just for Blink Charge for FFXV Noctis Style, thrown the weapon and teleport to it then force fang.
Double Slice and Dual weapon Blitz gives a decent option for spellstrike off turns.
Holy f~&$, I totally missed this item. Thanks a lot for informing of it, now I will use it on every dex character ever.
That is pretty cool. You do still take the normal range penalties to hit within that 60 feet, yes?
If you get access to shurikens, they can be used to draw them and spellstrike at once. Get scrollstriker and you can load them up with scrolls you can use at a moments notice.
Ranger multiclass and Bounty Hunter Dedication can help as Hunt Prey allows you to ignore the 2nd range increment and Starlit doesn't care much for Arcane Cascade to the have enough actions for a Hunt prey or 2 without the need to maintaining Cascade. Also, Bounty Hunter Dedication gets you Bola access and they have Ranged Trip which can be an god 3rd action: Since the attack is an athletics check, take assurance athletics and the MAP doesn't matter.
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Ranger multiclass and Bounty Hunter Dedication can help as Hunt Prey allows you to ignore the 2nd range increment and Starlit doesn't care much for Arcane Cascade to the have enough actions for a Hunt prey or 2 without the need to maintaining Cascade. Also, Bounty Hunter Dedication gets you Bola access and they have Ranged Trip which can be an god 3rd action: Since the attack is an athletics check, take assurance athletics and the MAP doesn't matter.
Starlit Span still only allows you to make a Spellstrike within the first range increment of the weapon. With Hunt Prey...
You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment against the prey you’re hunting.
you only ignore the penalty due to the range. You don't simply omit having a second range increment entirely and go straight from first range increment to third.
Ranger does have Far Shot (4, so 8th via MCD) to double the range increment, and doesn't require Hunt Prey beforehand. That seems quite significant, but much more so on a shortbow.
Rogue helps w/ a +10' RI feat option, though that's pretty poor compared to so many other options.
Javelin, though taking out the melee option, can work well with Deadly Simplicity which works well if already planning to MCD Cleric (for Divine Lance/Searing Light/et al).
It was for one minute a day only? dangit, okay then it'S no good... my eyes kind of skipped that partFor one minute a day.Ideally a way of making a non-throwing weapon into a throwing weapon would be goodSoulforger - your soulforged weapon can be any weapon, gets thrown over 30 feet and returning without using a slot for a property rune (at least thats one option)
The use of the essence form (with the "free" magic property) is once per day for one minute; the "basic" soulforged armament (which can be a magic item) can be used without limit: "You manifest an armor, shield, or weapon as a soulforged armament. Choose one essence power for the armament... Once per day when you use this ability, you can manifest the armament's essence form. You gain the armament's essence power until it's Dismissed. After 1 minute, the essence form armament is automatically Dismissed."
It's still good (dismiss and re-manifest a disarmed, dropped, thrown, etc. soulforged armament; using Rapid Manifestation to manifest as a free action), just not crazy good with an additional "always on" effect.
you only ignore the penalty due to the range. You don't simply omit having a second range increment entirely and go straight from first range increment to third.
Yep, I messed that up. I was thinking of this:
Ranger does have Far Shot (4, so 8th via MCD) to double the range increment, and doesn't require Hunt Prey beforehand.
Ever have one of those days when you're one step behind? That's today for me. ;)