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So, with the Summoner now being out, there are some gaps in the available Eidolons. So, what should be an Eidolon type that currently isn't , and what sort of abilities should they have?
Currently Existing Eidolons:
Angel (Divine)
Anger Phantom (Occult)
Beast (Primal)
Construct (Arcane)
Demon (Divine)
Devotion Phantom (Occult)
Dragon (Arcane)
Fey (Primal)
Plant (Primal)
Psychopomp (Divine)
Eidolons from First Edition Unchained:
Aberrant (Occult)
Aeon (Divine)
Agathion (Divine)
Ancestor (Occult)
Archon (Divine)
Astral (Arcane)
Azata (Divine)
Daemon (Divine)
Deepwater (Primal)
Devil (Divine)
Div (Arcane)
Elemental (Primal)
Genie (Arcane)
Inevitable (Divine)
Kami (Primal)
Kyton (Occult)
Protean (Divine)
Radiant (Primal)
Shadow (Occult)
Storykin (Arcane)
Void (Primal)
Phantoms in First Edition (All Occult)
Despair
Desperation
Fear
Greed
Hatred
Jealousy
Kindness
Lust
Pride
Remorse
Suffering
Whimsy
Zeal
Well, that's a lot of Divine and Occult options. Which probably explains why Paizo limited them at the start to just 10 with a max 3 of each to avoid the Phantoms or Outer Planar creatues overwhelming the options list.
So, what's still misisng? What eidolons do people want to see first? And what sort of abilities should they have?
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Aberrant and Elemental are the most egregious exemptions IMO. I understand Elemental not making the cut since Primal already has the most eidolons with the current list, but I 100% would have picked Aberrant over Psychopomp, or at least swapped out one of the Phantoms for it.
Are the phantoms explicitly undead? I know they are spirits, but they don't have the undead trait - maybe a Wraith Eidolon for the more evil necromancy focused summoners? Nightstalker? Shadows?
The obvious choice is to fill out the other main outsiders - archon, azata, devil, daemon, aeon, protean, and the four main elementals.
I would like to see some kind of eldritch abomination eidolon - you can keep it vague by just calling it abberration eidolon and it can cover eidolons connected to the Dark Tapestry/Cthulhu Mythos/Dominion of the Black/etc.
I think Genie, Devil, Aberrant and Elemental are the main ones I feel are missing
Conveniently, these also cover the four traditions.
Arcane for Genie.
Divine for Devil.
Occult for Aberrant.
Primal for Elemental.
The other one that I feel is missing is an explicitly undead eidolon. The phantoms sort of fill that niche, but a full on necromancer Summoner with a Zombie, Skeletal, or even Vampiric Eidolon would be cool.
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Construct kinda got merged with Astral in a neat make what you want eidolen sort of way. Would love to see a return of inevitable/aeon for a more law bent and protean for a more chaotic bent twist to eidolen. Devil being the third one I probably want back most of all.
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I'd definitely want a Kyton/Velstrac Eidolon at some point. Lots of potential there. I think I agree with the top picks being Devil, Genie, Elemental, and Aberration. Shadow is definitely high on the list, too.
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Yeah- Devil, Genie, Elemental, and Aberration really represent the largest images of Summoner that aren't covered yet. Devil and Genie have notable regions that "need" them. Summoning a betentacled horror is as Occult as it gets, and it needs some variety beyond "emotions". And Primal should be able to call on a force of nature.
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I'd like Proteans to come with the Arcane tradition (or at least the option to) so the original iconics (Balazar and Padrig) can be replicated.
I definitely want the Aberration with Occult spellcasting and was surprised they skipped out on it for the initial release and instead doubled up on phantoms.
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Sinspawn could be an interesting arcane eidolon that would tie the Summoner to Thassilonian lore.
Phantoms are not "undead" based on the traits. They are similar to ghost in that they are souls that went to the ethereal plane.
Off of that list I am surprised that Protean, Ancestor, and Inevitables were not done. Proteans were 1 of the most customizeable. Inevitables used to be the "construct" eidolon (also not from the astral plane). And well Ancestor is the one that let you have an old family member.
Twinned and Storykin, well they'll maybe come eventually.
Surprised? At least to me, the ones they picked made sense. For the Outer Planes, they got the LG, TN, CE alignment diagonal covered, with angels being flexible to any Good. Psychopomps certainly get the most action out of any of the monitors, so if they had to pick just one for space, that makes sense.
Inevitable eidolons were reflavored as constructs a lot- possibly more than they were used as inevitables?- so just going ahead and having a construct eidolon makes sense for an initial release.
I'm looking forward to eventually getting protean eidolons again at some point, although as with all the Outer Planes eidolons, I'll be asking the GM for a different spell list. Hmm… might also just reflavor dragon eidolon to one in the meantime, since acid breath and some claw-claw-tail/bite action fits decently. I like the flavor better than dragon, and I like the spell list better than divine, so that's good all around.
I'd forgotten about ancestor, so thank you for the reminder! That'd be an excellent on to have show up because of all the customization of ancestry feats. Would probably need a restriction to avoid picking up class feats/dedications/etc. given all the issues that'd cause, but still plenty of cool stuff that could be done if they open it up like that.
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Wizard Vestige Eidolon, maybe. An arcane eidolon that focuses more on getting and enhancing magical spells, based off of a lasting impression a spellcaster left on the astral plane.
I feel you can kind of achieve some of the missing ones with the existing feats.
Elemental can be Beast + Energy heart. Most of the elementals in the bestiary have beast base forms now.
Genie could for the time being just be Fey reskinnned with the Arcane spell list.
Shadow could as easily be either of the phantoms - take shadowcaster dedication if need be. I mean the difference mechanically is almost null. Take energy heart and negative energy or cold is another good way of adding the shadow flavor.
Devotion phantom could easily work for ancestor.
The amalgam could be construct just reflavour the base resistance to be due to the weird nature of the thing and then make it organic.
I am not saying these won't or shouldn't be their own thing only that for those that want a close approximation its doable. But a lot of the old eidolons can be approximated in the meantime.
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I feel you can kind of achieve some of the missing ones with the existing feats.
Elemental can be Beast + Energy heart. Most of the elementals in the bestiary have beast base forms now.
Genie could for the time being just be Fey reskinnned with the Arcane spell list.
Shadow could as easily be either of the phantoms - take shadowcaster dedication if need be. I mean the difference mechanically is almost null. Take energy heart and negative energy or cold is another good way of adding the shadow flavor.
Devotion phantom could easily work for ancestor.
The amalgam could be construct just reflavour the base resistance to be due to the weird nature of the thing and then make it organic.
I am not saying these won't or shouldn't be their own thing only that for those that want a close approximation its doable. But a lot of the old eidolons can be approximated in the meantime.
If you want to improve your shadow phantom, playing a Fetchling and getting permission to reflavor them to human will give you access to a bunch of shadow abilities without touching your class feats at all.
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Angel and Demon already blanket cover celestial/infernal rather well
Tbh I'm surprised they didn't just write them as blanket celestial/infernal eidolons and instead made them specific.
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Angel and Demon already blanket cover celestial/infernal rather wellTbh I'm surprised they didn't just write them as blanket celestial/infernal eidolons and instead made them specific.
Guess it leaves room for expansion in the future.
I am hoping the book of the dead will have Undead Eidolons of some sort, or maybe a class archetype which changes the Eidolon to a powerful undead companion.
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I don't think that Paizo care much about "rounding" lists for classes with multiple traditions, Sorcerer have 16 bloodlines right now and 6 are divine per example and the most recent released was a divine one that already had more than the others. It pretty much follow the theming of the book instead of marking checklists.
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I don't think that Paizo care much about "rounding" lists for classes with multiple traditions, Sorcerer have 16 bloodlines right now and 6 are divine per example and the most recent released was a divine one that already had more than the others. It pretty much follow the theming of the book instead of marking checklists.
I agree, they said as much regards Secrets of Magic in that they could have just made a list of spells which are basically fireball but with different elements, or replicating stuff from 1e - and some of that stuff does exist - but really they are getting more enjoyment from just doing what is fun and evocative and adds to the world of Pathfinder, rather than going through a checklist of reequipments.
Angel and Demon already blanket cover celestial/infernal rather wellTbh I'm surprised they didn't just write them as blanket celestial/infernal eidolons and instead made them specific.
Blanket celestial/fiendish, you mean? Infernal would just be devils.
Demons, devils, and daemons diverge drastically and do devious deeds differently. I'd expect devil eidolons to get something like get additional skill feats or have some sort of binding/compulsion ability. Daemons, I'd expect something related to souls or death. Demons naturally have something focusing on sin, since that's their biggest focus in PF2.
I'm already a little sad to have the 1st and 17th level abilities on demon be generic anti-Good stuff; doing that to the 7th level ability too to make it fit all fiends would be really disappointing.
They're also ancient, mythical and otherworldly with a divine origin.
Could honestly be Primal, Divine or even Occult and still make sense.
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Kami are the other side of the Oni coin, are described as "divine nature spirits", and all have innate Divine spells. So, definitely Divine in origin.
Anyways, anumber of the Archetypes specific options for either 1e Summoner or Spirtualist that wouldn't strictly need an Archetype to work in 2e could be good additions. Granted not all of these provided an specific Phantom or Eidolon that was mechanically different, but a possible theme was there.
Avatar Eidolon (Divine)
- As in an Avatar of your Deity or one of their servants. Maybe give them access to Domains to make them interesting.
Blood/Sanguine Eidolon (Arcane -or- Occult)
- Eidolons born of blood and violence. Perhaps one of their frequent forms is that of a Vampire, given their relations to blood. Occult sounds good for it, but I've an idea of having some Eidolons tied to each Essence, so maybe Blood is Arcane via Matter and another could be Ki Eidolon for Life. Just an idea.
Elemental Eidolon (Primal)
- Hopefully eventually including all the other secondary and alternative elements; such as Magma, Void, Wood, etc.
Shadow/Shade Eidolon (Occult)
- Of the Shadow Plane. Duh.
Storykin (Arcane -or- Occult)
- 1e presents them as possibly Arcane in origin. SoM suggests room for Occult though.
Twin Eidolon (Arcane)
- Probably better for an Archetype that capitalizes on the idea. But, Shining anyone?
Drowned Phantom (Occult)
- And other "how you died" Phantoms. Could basically be the Elementals of the Occult world. Meaning, Drowned as some water based abilities.
Geistform/Zeitgeist Phantom (Occult)
- Basically a bunch of Phantoms without a clear emotional tie or emotionless altogether.
Hag Eidolon (Occult)
- Self-explanatory. Have some abilities/evolutions based on each main type of Hag.
Undead Eidonlon (Divine)
- Also self-explanatory. Maybe have two kinds though? One for Corporeal Undead, like Zombies, Skeletons, Ghouls. Another for Incorpreal Undead, such as Wraiths, Ghosts, Shadows.
Weapon Eidolon -or- Phantom (Arcane)
- Self-explanatory. Gives cool abilities that let it fight on its own of gives bonuses when wielded.
Exemplar Phantom (Occult)
- Sorta like Twin, only it is the most perfect version of yourself. I'm thinking MAYBE granting the Phantom a Multiclass Dedication and suggesting "this is you, if you weren't a Summoner"
Immortals (Divine)
- Aeons (Inevitables), Agathions, Kami, Demodands, Velstracs, Oni, Rakshasas, Archons, Asuras, Azata, Devils, Divs, Protean, Qlippoth, Sahkil, AESIR; would also like to see Couatl, Garuda, and Peri included here (who should fall under the True Celestial umbrella).
These are just the ones that kind of stood out to me. Most were covered by the Unchained Summoner in 1e, but I figured I'd list them regardless.
I'd love to have a swarm eidolon show up, especially in PF2 where it wouldn't be so unbalanced.
Kami could follow a path similar to Fey by having a spell list and adding spells. Divine with added primal or vice versa.
I'd love Qlippoth eidolons, but I don't think we'll get them. Part of the Qlippoth's whole deal is that they hate mortal life and want to kill everybody to keep them from becoming more demons. It's hard to imagine them partnering with someone to the extent required to be an eidolon.
Mhmm, agreed. Getting a Qlippoth familiar… sure, they're weak enough that they can't do anything about you, and you at least represent a way to get more things killed. I can't see any qlippoth tying its life force to a mortal and setting up a telepathic link, though. Stylish as heck, but it'd make no lore sense.
I'm not really hurting for eidolons right now, but I hope that we get Aberrations by the time Synthesist drops.
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I'd love Qlippoth eidolons, but I don't think we'll get them. Part of the Qlippoth's whole deal is that they hate mortal life and want to kill everybody to keep them from becoming more demons. It's hard to imagine them partnering with someone to the extent required to be an eidolon.Mhmm, agreed. Getting a Qlippoth familiar… sure, they're weak enough that they can't do anything about you, and you at least represent a way to get more things killed. I can't see any qlippoth tying its life force to a mortal and setting up a telepathic link, though. Stylish as heck, but it'd make no lore sense.Who said that creatures are "willing". But there is no reason for that to be the case.
Not to mention that devils and demons would love nothing more than for their Summoners to die after getting corrupted. Qlippoths are no different, but you bet that they would not listen to much of what a Summoner has to say if it doesn't involve what they like. Specially when you consider that qlippoths despite being outright evil, have a priority of killing demons and daemons over everything else.
Also honestly, they aren't much different from Daemons, personality wise.
Not even as a matter of willingness, just that it seems inimical enough to a qlippoth's nature to be an issue. Heck, if you did that, I feel like you have a decent chance of ending up with a demon? Mixing qlippoth with souls is how you got a few of the less humanoid demon lords, after all.
Happy to be wrong about it, though. Actually, your post made me realize that there definitely could be a good reason for qlippoth to do something like this. While they don't want to corrupt people, they do want to prevent souls (especially evil ones) from passing on. Include a PF1-style soul-destruction type drawback for the Summoner (an anti-resurrection effect in terms of game mechanics) on one of their abilities, and it gives the qlippoth a reason to be doing this.
Oh, I most certainly agree with the Qlippoth thing in regards to their nature. Certainly unlikely that any standard mortal could hope to control one without risk of death.
But, Summoners and Eidolons aren't really normal, by comparison to some other magical classes. The Eidolon is intrinsically tied to the Summoners life-force and don't have a physical form without them. So, I can see a Qlippoth Eidolon being very possible, agreeing to such a partnership if only to gain a body. Maybe it's likely that the being would refuse, because they even hate themselves. But, the opportunity to possess the means to destroy all life within the Multiverse by tying themselves to what they hate long enough to complete that mission? That seems likely to me. As far as the Qlippoth may be concerned, it will kill the Summoner once it has killed everything else.
And, should the Qlippoth attempt to attack their Summoner, they can always be dismissed or simply manifested in a way that is directly controlled by the Summoner or keeps the Summoner safe(I.E: Melding or Synthesizing)
Maybe the Qlippoth eventually gets so desperate that they secretly start begging other creatures to relieve them of the (from their point of view) infernal contract they signed onto with their master? (And then they keep getting dissed and/or even further ripped off instead.)
Another concept I'd like to see is playable Unfettered Eidolons -- for instance, the Summoner dies, and the party tries to Reincarnate/Raise Dead them, but something goes wrong, and they get the Eidolon instead of the Summoner, and now it's no longer bonded to the Summoner. I had a character concept for this for some of the more infernally-oriented 1st Edition APs, but the 1st Edition rules don't support this concept except with the most extreme shoehorning.
I'm not really hurting for eidolons right now, but I hope that we get Aberrations by the time Synthesist drops.
Are we still getting Synthesist? I mean, Meld into Eidolon is a thing, now....
I continue to assert that we need a divine caster zombie/skeleton summoner, and some reasonably satisfying way (perhaps a feat that requires Hulking Size) to turn them into a horde/swarm. It might also be cool to have some sort of vampire/ghost/ghoul/whatever option for a summoner, but the modeled behaviors are going to be different enough that it should be a distinct eidolon type. Bonus points if there's a feat to give them the "bloody skeleton" effect. Possibly some sort of enhancement feat to Reactive dismissal that allows you to resummon it where it was and makes it easier to do so?
Actually... you could build an entire collection of feats around the idea of your eidolon going down in battle and getting back up again - leaving difficult terrain where it fell, for example, and then damaging or autograppling the foe if they were standing on it when they came back.
I'd also like to see some way for aberrations with a bunch of tentacles to be particularly good at grappling - either a particular eidolon that is a tentacled aberration that has grapple benefits built in or a feat that requires a tentacle attack or something. I really do like the plant-based grappler build, but it would be nice for aberrations to be able to compete in that space in some way.
...and both of those speak to a deeper thing. No one set of three advantages is going to really describe "zombie/skeleton" and the higher undead particularly well at the same time. The stuff they have in common isn't the stuff that's going to make people want to play those particular kinds of summoner. As far as I can see, its' going to be *real hard* to come up with a set of advantages for aberration that covers both the "I want to be a mass of grappling tentacles" crowd and the people who want to run straight-up eldritch weirdness like the gibbering mouther or blood painter. You *could* solve this by just printing more eidolons, but it might also make sense to give a few different options for one or more of the three "what does my eidolon get" slots.
We are still getting Synthesist, yes. The "temporarily meld into your eidolon" feat even had its name changed from the playtest to avoid confusion.
I could see qlippith having interesting mechanics with them actively hostile to the link. More powerful but more unstable.
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{. . .}
Also @UnArcaneElection , I am not sure I agree, The PF1 rules for a Monster PC were relatively easy to follow. The PF2 rules by comparison look a bit more muddied due to needing to reconcile PC proficiency stats vs monster proficiency stats.
I wasn't thinking of difficulty understand the Pathfinder 1st Edition rules on monster PCs so much as difficulty avoiding giving the GM balance nightmares.