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Well, given that Formian and Lashunta both effectively share the same actual homeworld as every Elf from the setting (before they split off and began to inhabit Golarian) I think that despite them being "off-worlders" the presence of the aiudara on both planets that it makes logical sense for them to be represented with PC Ancestries, hell they were even featured in Inner Sea Races alongside the Android and they are FAR less technologically advanced than them, after all real SF level technology isn't a thing on Castrovel yet and I see no reason why they would have a more difficult time migrating to Golarian than the Elves who created and subsequently abandoned the many gates between the worlds.
Formians can probably be ported over directly with very little change but Paizo would almost certainly have to update Lashunta gendered biology aspect that they saw in 1st edition and be given the option to choose either of the dimorphic forms regardless of their gender/biological sex like they did for SF but that's an easy change because the Heritage Silo is absolutely perfect for that.
Versatile - I'd like to see aberrant-blood or feyblood or possibly half-dragon (if large).
I find centaurs really creepy, so not them.
An insect-based ancestry would be good.
I'd also quite like the Lashunta and Kasatha.
Well, given that Formian and Lashunta both effectively share the same actual homeworld as every Elf from the setting (before they split off and began to inhabit Golarian) I think that despite them being "off-worlders" the presence of the aiudara on both planets that it makes logical sense for them to be represented with PC Ancestries, hell they were even featured in Inner Sea Races alongside the Android and they are FAR less technologically advanced than them, after all real SF level technology isn't a thing on Castrovel yet and I see no reason why they would have a more difficult time migrating to Golarian than the Elves who created and subsequently abandoned the many gates between the worlds.
Formians can probably be ported over directly with very little change but Paizo would almost certainly have to update Lashunta gendered biology aspect that they saw in 1st edition and be given the option to choose either of the dimorphic forms regardless of their gender/biological sex like they did for SF but that's an easy change because the Heritage Silo is absolutely perfect for that.
I actually quite like how the weird bioessentialism in Lashunta culture was handled in Starfinder: it’s explicitly said that Lashunta activists worked to decouple those different permutations from their cultural understanding of gender, which I think is cool.
Mantis people, because Thri-kreen.I feel like if something like this existed we'd have heard about it by now, what with there being a big mantis-themed cult and god in-setting.
I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing some sneaky mantisfolk who live on Mediogalti Island.
As a big Distant Worlds girl, I’d be down for playable Formians; Castrovel and Akiton both feel like solid adventuring locales across a number of potential power levels, and I’d like the tools to make them happen!
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I think they mentioned Centaur was considered for the character guide, I think that would be perfect for + Strength and Wisdom. I also wouldn't mind large either, it feels like the ancestry guide was really starting to flirt with that, what with Beastkin and Lizardfolk.Well that moved them up in my “what we getting in LO Bazaar” list.
Stheno still seems most likely, but now I’m curious.
Yeah if it was considered so early, I'm kind of surprised it didn't happen in the ancestry guide.
I'd also forgotten we're getting an ancestry in the bazaar.
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Plus one for some of the castrovel and akiton races. Idk if it's anytime soon though, paizo might wanna give starfinder room to breathe before taking it's toys, if it ever does. I will guiltily admit that I want starfinder races for the four armed kasatha and shobahd, though
Plus one for some of the castrovel and akiton races. Idk if it's anytime soon though, paizo might wanna give starfinder room to breathe before taking it's toys, if it ever does. I will guiltily admit that I want starfinder races for the four armed kasatha and shobahd, though
The shobhad have definitely leaned on some iffy tropes in the past; I’d love to see them playable, to help balance that out.
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I want to see a pandafolk ancestry!
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Syrinx haven't come out yet in PF2, and I'd like to see more of them.
Are there syrinx communities that aren't flight-supremacist? Can the Pathfinder Society make diplomatic contact with them without having to withstand incessant condescension?
Syrinx, wyrwoods, and Arcadian ethnic groups for core Ancestries and others would make me a /very/ happy girl.
Merfolk are the first one that come to mind, though I'd also like to see some sort of "ghostfolk" quasi-ectoplasmic race that's explicitly not undead. A sentient inanimate object race would be pretty cool, too.
I’m still waiting on an undead ancestry I like; dhampirs don’t scratch the itch, deadwalkers feel more like a kind of samsaran, and mortics don’t really feel playable to me.
A little bit of a tangent, but I see some people asking for a default large ancestry, wouldn't that break some (all?) existing adventure path/module maps, requiring the large character to Squeeze through 5' hallways?
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A little bit of a tangent, but I see some people asking for a default large ancestry, wouldn't that break some (all?) existing adventure path/module maps, requiring the large character to Squeeze through 5' hallways?
I think the fantasy of "I want to be a really big guy/gal/etc" is worth satisfying, but if you're like 9' tall and bulky you can still be medium. The fantasy of "I want to get reach for free by my ancestry choice" is probably not one they're going to entertain. The aformentioned hypothetical "at the top end of medium" ancestry probably could get a "do something to get reach" via an ancestry feat (I mean, Leshies get this) but bonus reach shouldn't be baked into top level choices at chargen.
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Merfolk are the first one that come to mind.
Of course, they would need to be "Amphibious" rather than "Aquatic" as they are in the Bestiary. Then there is the mobility issue to deal with in a variety of possible ways (possibly split up by heritage).
A little bit of a tangent, but I see some people asking for a default large ancestry, wouldn't that break some (all?) existing adventure path/module maps, requiring the large character to Squeeze through 5' hallways?I mean, to a certain extent that's true, but it doesn't and has never stopped Paizo (or WotC OR 3rd parties) from publishing 'Aquatic or Semi-aquatic races that are routinely hosed by not having access to a large body of water every N hours'.
Like, if you consider Azarketi to be an acceptable ancestry to publish then really any argument of "This ancestry has special problems and limitations in a large number of prewritten adventures" is NOT a good argument to use.
And clearly Paizo thinks Azarketi with their water dependence IS a good race to publish, since they've released it for free as a preview because the book they were planning to publish it in has been delayed.
They've fully released the Azarketi.
A little bit of a tangent, but I see some people asking for a default large ancestry, wouldn't that break some (all?) existing adventure path/module maps, requiring the large character to Squeeze through 5' hallways?I mean, to a certain extent that's true, but it doesn't and has never stopped Paizo (or WotC OR 3rd parties) from publishing 'Aquatic or Semi-aquatic races that are routinely hosed by not having access to a large body of water every N hours'.
Like, if you consider Azarketi to be an acceptable ancestry to publish then really any argument of "This ancestry has special problems and limitations in a large number of prewritten adventures" is NOT a good argument to use.
And clearly Paizo thinks Azarketi with their water dependence IS a good race to publish, since they've released it for free as a preview because the book they were planning to publish it in has been delayed.
I don't think water dependence and having to squeeze through 5 foot hallways are comparable. In my experience, it's pretty rare for the Azarketi to not be able to meet their water needs in Paizo published adventures. Most of the time the group completes a task and then returns to town or a home base of some kind to rest and regroup and this tends to happen daily. They don't even need to meet it daily since they can go up to 48 hours until they actually have serious consequences.
Compare this to 5-foot hallways, they're literally everywhere in every adventure path, module, society, bounty, one-shot, etc. and would slow the movement speed of the party down to a minimum of 5 feet per minute (10 rounds), 1/150 of the average party's movement speed, and that's only if the squeeze is successful. Plus slow the game down with continuous need for Squeeze rolls. Not to mention the technical issues with walls when it comes to a VTT. I think this is a big part of the reason the only access to large we've seen for PC's is able to be turned on and off and I think it will continue to be that way for the foreseeable future.
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A little bit of a tangent, but I see some people asking for a default large ancestry, wouldn't that break some (all?) existing adventure path/module maps, requiring the large character to Squeeze through 5' hallways?I mean, to a certain extent that's true, but it doesn't and has never stopped Paizo (or WotC OR 3rd parties) from publishing 'Aquatic or Semi-aquatic races that are routinely hosed by not having access to a large body of water every N hours'.
Like, if you consider Azarketi to be an acceptable ancestry to publish then really any argument of "This ancestry has special problems and limitations in a large number of prewritten adventures" is NOT a good argument to use.
And clearly Paizo thinks Azarketi with their water dependence IS a good race to publish, since they've released it for free as a preview because the book they were planning to publish it in has been delayed.
To be clear I'm fine with them including any ancestry at all I don't have any strong feelings about it. However, I think it's unlikely that we'll see Paizo include an actual 'Large' ancestry.
I don't think water dependence and having to squeeze through 5 foot hallways are comparable. In my experience, it's pretty rare for the Azarketi to not be able to meet their water needs in Paizo published adventures. Most of the time the group completes a task and then returns to town or a home base of some kind to rest and regroup and this tends to happen daily. Compare this to 5-foot hallways which are literally everywhere in every single adventure path, module, society, bounty, one-shot, etc. and would slow the movement speed of the party down to a minimum of 5 feet per minute (10 rounds) and that's only if the squeeze is successful. Plus slow the game down with continuous need for Squeeze rolls. Not to mention the technical issues with walls when it comes to a VTT. I think this is a big part of the reason the only access to large we've seen for PC's is able to be...
Once it has occurred, the Lizardfolk version cannot be reversed, although you're still right in the sense that by the time you do it, you probably know if it'll be a problem or not.
Still, I'm actually pretty ok with Large ancestries having to squeeze in some scenarios, having to move slower in some areas of the dungeon is not that severe a difficulty, although i say that partially because I can't imagine most dungeons are exclusively made up of five foot corridors.
I could also see a feat or something to ease the pain, if your character is being played in a game where its a very common circumstance.
Once it has occurred, the Lizardfolk version cannot be reversed, although you're still right in the sense that by the time you do it, you probably know if it'll be a problem or not.
Still, I'm actually pretty ok with Large ancestries having to squeeze in some scenarios, having to move slower in some areas of the dungeon is not that severe a difficulty, although i say that partially because I can't imagine most dungeons are exclusively made up of five foot corridors.
I could also see a feat or something to ease the pain, if your character is being played in a game where its a very common circumstance.
What's the Iruxi one? The only one I saw is Bone Investiture and it's the same as casting Dinosaur Form which ends after 1 minute.
What's the Iruxi one? The only one I saw is Bone Investiture and it's the same as casting Dinosaur Form which ends after 1 minute.Scion Transformation.
Thanks!
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I don't think water dependence and having to squeeze through 5 foot hallways are comparable. In my experience, it's pretty rare for the Azarketi to not be able to meet their water needs in Paizo published adventures. Most of the time the group completes a task and then returns to town or a home base of some kind to rest and regroup and this tends to happen daily. They don't even need to meet it daily since they can go up to 48 hours until they actually have serious consequences.
I won't claim to be an expert on published adventures, since I've only run two of them thus far, but both of the ones I've run have included multi-day traveling which could have been problematic with an Azarketi in the party. Overall, it seems very easy to have water dependence be an issue in many campaign settings, and in some being more problematic than dealing with 5 foot hallways.
I'd also note that the squeeze action specifies, "This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check." So I'd see an argument for saying that a large ancestry didn't need to make a squeeze check for an average 5 foot hallway and would simply treat all the spaces as difficult terrain for being a tight fit.
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Maybe playing a large ancestry would compel someone other than a high-level Rogue to seek out Quick Squeeze for the first time since the game's inception. (Or get a way to cast Shrink on themself, maybe.)
Anyway, I like cute monstery people. The ones that exist are nice, more would also be nice.
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I don't think water dependence and having to squeeze through 5 foot hallways are comparable. In my experience, it's pretty rare for the Azarketi to not be able to meet their water needs in Paizo published adventures. Most of the time the group completes a task and then returns to town or a home base of some kind to rest and regroup and this tends to happen daily. They don't even need to meet it daily since they can go up to 48 hours until they actually have serious consequences.I won't claim to be an expert on published adventures, since I've only run two of them thus far, but both of the ones I've run have included multi-day traveling which could have been problematic with an Azarketi in the party. Overall, it seems very easy to have water dependence be an issue in many campaign settings, and in some being more problematic than dealing with 5 foot hallways.
I'd also note that the squeeze action specifies, "This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check." So I'd see an argument for saying that a large ancestry didn't need to make a squeeze check for an average 5 foot hallway and would simply treat all the spaces as difficult terrain for being a tight fit.
The Azarketis limitations are not that bad. They are only marginally more water dependant than regular humans. I'm not seeing the point of a separate merfolk race. Take Inuerd or Mistbreath heritage if the water limits bother you too much. From a role play point of view, I want the limits, they add to the story and justify the bonus that you have.
I think this is exactly how Squeeze is supposed to be played. But the rules aren't precise AFAICT. But from a common sense argument a large ogre that is 10ft tall is probably going to be able to get through a 5ft wide corridor relatively quickly with some sort of crawling maneuver.
There are a lot of size large characters anyway in the game. Giant Instinct Barbarians, most wild shaped Druids, virtually every Animals Companion/Mount after a few levels.
A regular size doorway is an important terrain obstacle.
Or... You can just GM-ify and say the hallways are 8' high and doesn't impede the local centaurs because the human part only needs to bend over slightly for them to maintain a full gallop ^.^
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Or... You can just GM-ify and say the hallways are 8' high and doesn't impede the local centaurs because the human part only needs to bend over slightly for them to maintain a full gallop ^.^
Totally, folks or Paizo could do whatever they like. I won't be feeling it with half the character model/mini sitting in the wall though. I know the game isn't a real-life simulation, but I can't see that as anything other than a squeeze.
I'd also note that the squeeze action specifies, "This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check." So I'd see an argument for saying that a large ancestry didn't need to make a squeeze check for an average 5 foot hallway and would simply treat all the spaces as difficult terrain for being a tight fit.
As above, with half your model/mini sitting inside the wall I would rule it a squeeze, but obviously, that's gm fiat.
I won't claim to be an expert on published adventures, since I've only run two of them thus far, but both of the ones I've run have included multi-day traveling which could have been problematic with an Azarketi in the party. Overall, it seems very easy to have water dependence be an issue in many campaign settings, and in some being more problematic than dealing with 5-foot hallways.
I'm no expert on every single one, but any time I've encountered multi-day overland travel in a published adventure there's never been any reason the PC's couldn't find a stream, pond, lake, river, those things aren't exactly uncommon. Obviously, if they were in the middle of the desert that would be difficult, but I haven't seen that myself. You can also take the heritage to avoid the problem altogether and by level 7 you can have a decanter of endless water and a collapsible bathtub.
We already have a thread for Classes, and Rulebooks, and APs, but what interesting/exciting Ancestry or Versatile Heritage options are people hopeful/excited for?
For reference, as of writing there are 8 ancestries confirmed to be coming out this year:
Lost Omens Mwangi Expanse Anadi, Grippli, Gnoll, Shisk, Conrasu, Goloma
Guns and Gears Automaton
Lost Omens Grand Bazaar Unknown never-before-playable ancestryPersonally I hope we get a VH to make characters truly undead (mortic maybe?}, as well as centaurs and other Large ancestries and more weird/non-humanoid options.
Ogre and half ogres, and centaurs that are all playable, feel like actual ogres and centaurs, and are not particularly more powerful than the other ancestries.
I also have a foundness of vanara, rabbit folk, and such.
Ascestries from the first world might be interseting, as would a first world setting/adventure path where the game takes place in a fairy land and you can play a native denizen.
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I feel like if we get centaurs as an ancestry there will be size differences based on heritages (Sprites can be tiny or small already), so if your campaign is one where "not fitting in a 5' square" is a problem, you can choose a heritage that is medium and fits in a 5' square.
It's not like there aren't horses that are much smaller than other horses.
Ascestries from the first world might be interseting, as would a first world setting/adventure path where the game takes place in a fairy land and you can play a native denizen.
We've got sprites as of the Ancestry Guide releasing if that's what your imagining, though there are a lot of possibilities for native creatures to the First World.
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A symbiotic parasite heritage.
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...Source?We already have a thread for Classes, and Rulebooks, and APs, but what interesting/exciting Ancestry or Versatile Heritage options are people hopeful/excited for?
For reference, as of writing there are 8 ancestries confirmed to be coming out this year:
Lost Omens Mwangi Expanse Anadi, Grippli, Gnoll, Shisk, Conrasu, Goloma
Guns and Gears Automaton
Lost Omens Grand Bazaar Unknown never-before-playable ancestryPersonally I hope we get a VH to make characters truly undead (mortic maybe?}, as well as centaurs and other Large ancestries and more weird/non-humanoid options.
Ogre and half ogres, and centaurs that are all playable, feel like actual ogres and centaurs, and are not particularly more powerful than the other ancestries.
I also have a foundness of vanara, rabbit folk, and such.
What are you asking a source FOR? He said he would like centaurs and ogre playable races, that feel like centaurs and ogre, while not overshadowing the rest of the cast.
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A symbiotic parasite heritage.
Serious English question: is that an oxymoron?
A symbiotic parasite heritage.
Did you ever see Daelkyr Half-Bloods in Eberron?
You contort yourself to squeeze through a space so small you can barely fit through. This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check.A 5' space is usually just difficult terrain for Large creatures, isn't it?
To the best of my knowledge, there's no official ruling on the definition of what counts as an exceptionally small space. I think in first edition squeeze applied to an area that was half your width. In my opinion, a space that's half your width would count as a squeeze, but it appears to be GM fiat.
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Yes it is. Symbiotic relationships are when two creatures live off of each other in harmony, each needing the other to survive, whereas parasitic relationships are those where one organism leeches off of another without giving anything back.A symbiotic parasite heritage.Serious English question: is that an oxymoron?
Pshh. That’s just what the parasites want you to think.
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A symbiotic parasite heritage.Did you ever see Daelkyr Half-Bloods in Eberron?
I tried, but they seem to excel at obfuscation to the extent that I’ve never even heard of them.
To the best of my knowledge, there's no official ruling on the definition of what counts as an exceptionally small space. I think in first edition squeeze applied to an area that was half your width. In my opinion, a space that's half your width would count as a squeeze, but it appears to be GM fiat.You contort yourself to squeeze through a space so small you can barely fit through. This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check.A 5' space is usually just difficult terrain for Large creatures, isn't it?
As far as I can tell, there is no official definition of "tight spaces" outside of the text for Squeeze. For the best interpretation - I'd consider looking at the Sample Squeeze Tasks:
"Trained space barely fitting your shouldersMaster space barely fitting your head."
So it'd seem reasonable to me to say that anything that can comfortably fit your shoulders doesn't qualify as "space so small you can barely fit through" or "exceptionally small spaces" and instead falls under "tight spaces" which only give difficult terrain instead of requiring a check. After all, a 2.5ft doorway shouldn't require an average human to squeeze to get past it (despite taking up a 5ftx5ft square, I've yet to meet a 5ft wide human).
If we use human as a typical example of how a Medium ancestry fills their space - I'd note that average shoulder width seems to be roughly 16 inches from what I can find online. Lets round that up to a full 2 feet to account for variation and make calculations easy (above XXL shirt dimensions here - which are made for 22 inch shoulder width). If a large-sized size ancestry was proportionally scaled similar to a human to fill their 10ft x 10ft square, that'd be a (very) rough shoulder width of about 4 feet. Which would still comfortable fit in a 5ft hallway, but might be an issue for something like the 3ft doorway near me. Rules-wise, that would seem to mean that the hallway would only be difficult terrain (tight space since they have to crouch and have limited arm movement), while the doorway would impose a squeeze check (which doesn't seem to have good rules for squeezing through areas less than 5 feet long).
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For visualizing this - I'd consider Lady Dimitrescu from RE: Village to be a Large-sized creature. At the smaller end of the scale being 9'6", but a Roper (9 feet tall) and Ogres (10 feet tall) both qualify as large-sized, so I'd view it as reasonable to include her as well. For her in-game, hallways aren't much of an issue (besides not having enough room to spread her arms out), and doors seem to require just a bit of effort (having to pause to duck underneath and sometimes gripping the doorframe). Considering something like a playable Ogre would be just a bit larger and an average residence would probably have lower ceilings - I'd still see them as being able to move through a 5ft hallway with only limited difficulty, so difficult terrain seems most appropriate (fighting might be a bit tougher however).
Overall: If paizo wanted to print a large-sized ancestry, a sidebar would probably be appropriate to clear up some rules elements like this, but it would take relatively little space to do so in my opinion. And if the biggest issue was taking just a bit longer to pass through hallways / having trouble fighting there, then that's hardly crippling for most campaigns.