| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is why i want spell school archetypes that really let you focus on and strengthen the weaker spells in the system. a conjurer line which gives feats so you can make summons the same strength of relative level animal companions would be great as well as some action economy boosts too.
P.S. Cackle should of let you sustain a hex for free for 1 minute.
No specialization archetypes like that in SoM.....and if they're not in the magic book I don't think it's something the developers want to explore (which is a bummer). Also, I'd be down for that version of cackle.
I guess my bad for kicking off the summoning tangent.
To be clear, I gave examples of how in specific situations witches can be strong from the accounts of people who have actually used witches in those ways and found it powerful and useful. I don't have the experience to back up those accounts, but I trust them enough to confidently say the Witch is playable, and at least feels strong to certain people.
As for me, I can't bring myself to play a witch since it's release because it's features aren't what I personally want out of it.
| 21 people marked this as a favorite. |
I asked one of my players who has played a witch from levels 1-12 (and counting!) what her overall thoughts on the class are, what she likes and what she feels is missing.
Firstly, the familiar. She likes that it's a core part of the class, but is incredibly dissatisfied with it. Mainly because while you get to pick more features than the average familiar even without investment, there's nothing uniquely witchy about it. There's no unique or weird things that only a witch can do with their familiar. Familiars being able to assist in casting spells somehow (and not just by giving extra slots/focus) would be very nice to her.
Next, hexes. She likes the format of starting off with a spammable one and then unlocking more powerful ones as you level up, but mentions the massive power disparity between them. Many of them just feel like worse versions of things other classes can do. For instance, hers was Nudge Fate, which is just a worse version of Inspire Courage. Nudge Fate rarely made a difference because it's only a +1 to a single person, even after I houseruled it to let it turn a success into a crit. She could often just use the Aid action or go into flanking to offer a higher bonus.
One of her items is a dagger with the returning and cunning runes. To her, what she does with this dagger (deal a small amount of damage and then gain knowledge from their blood) feels more in line with what a hex cantrip should be than what she actually has.
All in all she's enjoying playing the class, but that's mostly due to her spell selection and a couple feats (Cauldron and Witch's Communion). Beyond that, there's nothing that actually feels like witchcraft. No unique rituals, no magical trinkets or heartstones, no ability to feel like a hag, just not enough weird stuff.
Keep in mind that this isn't just about power. While she agrees the class feels underpowered, she's the kind of player that would enjoy playing something that's weak if it delivers on the class fantasy, but she doesn't think the PF2 Witch hits the mark.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I asked one of my players who has played a witch from levels 1-12 (and counting!) what her overall thoughts on the class are, what she likes and what she feels is missing.
Firstly, the familiar. She likes that it's a core part of the class, but is incredibly dissatisfied with it. Mainly because while you get to pick more features than the average familiar even without investment, there's nothing uniquely witchy about it. There's no unique or weird things that only a witch can do with their familiar. [...] Beyond that, there's nothing that actually feels like witchcraft. No unique rituals, no magical trinkets or heartstones, no ability to feel like a hag, just not enough weird stuff.
I can understand why she thinks that way. Swashbucklers have panache, oracles have their mysteries and curses, investigator has an arsenal of investigative mechanics that only he has, and even the basic classes like wizard and sorcerer have things like Arcane Thesis and Blood Magic. what is unique about Witch? Focus spell? Familiar? Cantrip Focus Spell? Aside from the flavor of having a familiar eat pages and scrolls the familar and focus spells are the only things witches get from their patron and these things are easily accessible to other classes.
This lack of something unique that only Witches can do is one of the problems with the class. Some might even say that witches have Cackle, but that's not a class mechanic, it's a talent option. It's a case very similar to what they did with Magus adding Arcane Cascade (I think that's the name) as class core mechanic that is accessible to any Magus subclass.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.
Yeah, I have trouble coming up with of a witch build that makes sense that does not spend feats on all three lessons. A feat that almost every character of a class takes probably should not be a feat.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.Yeah, I have trouble coming up with of a witch build that makes sense that does not spend feats on all three lessons. A feat that almost every character of a class takes probably should not be a feat.
Even disregarding their power it's where a lot of the flavor comes from. A rune witch who archetypes out at 2 or takes enhanced familiar instead feels and plays a lot more like a wizard with fewer spell slots than their own unique twist on a spellcaster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1. Summons spells are three actions.
2. Summoned monsters can't use reaction abilities or 3 action abilities or spells above the level of the spell.
3. Range is 30 feet. Which may or may not allow you to put them in attack position or flank position.
4. Attack rolls are low and keep getting comparatively worse as you level and the level between the creature you summon and the creature you are fighting grows bigger. So much of the math of PF2 is level based.
5. Incapactiation effects hammer summoned creatures. So any auras, gazes, AoE spells, or innate abilities are going to require a big save and will affect them fully.
6. Requires a sustain action to maintain the spell which limits your ability to move and cast for likely less reliable damage and effects than a flaming sphere or something similar.
Let's address these points
1. 3a vs 2a isn't really that big of a difference for wizards, because they basically don't have anything good to do with the 3rd action anyway (unlike those pesky cha casters who get all the good stuff).
Only if you are really bad at building your character. There are a lot of options for good one action abilities. CHA casters are people too and shouldn't be excluded anyway.
2. Sure, whatever. My assessment of good summons never included these.
It merely means that in a lot of cases the enemy can just ignore your summons. Which is kind of important. Watch how the players treat your summons when you GM.
3. 30 feet is the standard range of pretty much every spell in the game, most spells will require you be that close to enemies, and unless they're at the very edge of your range (and your melee is positioned badly) summoning into flanking shouldn't be an issue.
OK
4. Ye, attack rolls are consistently low... but they're still monsters which have effectively fighter or fighter-1 hit bonus. That still turns out to be approx 45-50% hit rate on their first attack.
Still a bit low. Often the best tactic is to ignore the summons
5. It would have to be a very specific encounter for this to be relevant and also not equally hammer the party badly. Creatures that are lower level than you with incapacitation effects are generally a joke anyway, so there's no point blowing a top slot on them. If they're equal or higher level than you, your summon is only as good as you are with regard to incap.
Fair enough, not a big deal.
6. It's not about damage. It's about effects. If you wanted just damage, you'd use flaming sphere, which is not very good anyway. You get repeatable control with all the other minor benefits of an extra body (space blocking, flanking, etc.).
All thoses other things are helpful. But it does need to be about damage sometimes. Its just too low at the moment. Summons need an effective buff to be a viable tactic in most combat situations. +2 to hit would be enough....
:)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.
Yeah, that sounds like a good KISS Witch patch. Give them their lesson feats for free. Those three extra feats might bring them roughly on a par with (say) a Wizard.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.Yeah, I have trouble coming up with of a witch build that makes sense that does not spend feats on all three lessons. A feat that almost every character of a class takes probably should not be a feat.
Eh I generally ignore the greater lesson. IMO they're all kinda bad, so I just get minor and major.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Only if you are really bad at building your character. There are a lot of options for good one action abilities. CHA casters are people too and shouldn't be excluded anyway.
For int casters, most of the good 1a stuff is use limited and situational. BMed, some focus spells, Shield Cantrip. It's not universally useful like Demoralise, Bon Mot, One For All, etc. is.
Sorcs can summon with primal evolution effectively giving them an extra top slot for summoning, but they probably don't want to.
Wizards get a lot of use out of summoning.
It merely means that in a lot of cases the enemy can just ignore your summons. Which is kind of important. Watch how the players treat your summons when you GM.
No reactions and no 3a abilities doesn't mean they're ignorable. Just get ones with abilities that can't be ignored.
Still a bit low. Often the best tactic is to ignore the summons
I agree, which is why my assessment assumed the summon was always ignored if able, and why I rate "tanky" summons like Construct so low because... they have nothing that forces them to be attacked, what's the point of being so tough?
Still, you can get summons which can't be ignored.
All thoses other things are helpful. But it does need to be about damage sometimes. Its just too low at the moment. Summons need an effective buff to be a viable tactic in most combat situations. +2 to hit would be enough....
If you need damage cast another spell. A summon shouldn't adequately solve every single conceivable problem you have, that's called a broken spell.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
1. Summons spells are three actions.
2. Summoned monsters can't use reaction abilities or 3 action abilities or spells above the level of the spell.
3. Range is 30 feet. Which may or may not allow you to put them in attack position or flank position.
4. Attack rolls are low and keep getting comparatively worse as you level and the level between the creature you summon and the creature you are fighting grows bigger. So much of the math of PF2 is level based.
5. Incapactiation effects hammer summoned creatures. So any auras, gazes, AoE spells, or innate abilities are going to require a big save and will affect them fully.
6. Requires a sustain action to maintain the spell which limits your ability to move and cast for likely less reliable damage and effects than a flaming sphere or something similar.
My group has tried quite a few times to make summons work. They don't. They always do inferior damage, inferior effects, and aren't worth casting in place of some other spell. Even magic missile is far more reliable damage for 3 actions. They've tried animate dead, summon animal, summon dragon, summon elemental, and summon giant. Every time they have used it with a max level slot, it has been dramatically underwhelming.
Personally, I find it sad to see spells that were very cool in PF1 reduced to nearly useless spells that are very suboptimal to take.
These are solid points, the thing is that this kind of thinking can be applied to almost every other spell as well, so it's not like only summoning is an outlier in this regard. Magic spells as a whole were nerfed and they have much more limitations now than they previously did.
Unless the GM is blatantly metagaming, odds are, that the summons will be a target if they are enough of a threat and in difficult situations when the math is heavily stacked against the party and the summon, it means that the action economy is stacked against the enemy, so any bit of advantage helps. An extra body for flanking,...
It isn't an outlier. You could include some other spells that were very powerful in PF1.
Suboptimal spells that were good in PF1.
1. Summons
2. Control spells like domination and charm.
3. Sleep and hold effects.
4. Spells like turn to stone or polymorph.
Battle forms I would put in this category, but a druid can build a good battle form caster and some battle forms at the level you get them are pretty good for a few levels. So battle forms aren't completely terrible and can do some decent damage.
All this is from experience with a bunch of players including myself trying to use these spells in an optimal manner.
I'm sure most on here have seen the process in each new game system or iteration of any old game system of trying to figure out what are the optimal spells to take. In PF2, the formerly good spells I listed above are suboptimal choices now including summons.
But yes you are right, summons are not alone in being suboptimal in the new edition. I find it a bit disappointing considering 5E still made summons very cool and usable. That is one area where I feel 5E did a much better job of making a very cool area of casting still powerful, fun to use, and on par with other optimal spells. I hope the PF2 design team takes a look at summons spells again and makes them cool again.
Things my primal sorcerer can summon:
Character Level 5:
leopard - can pounce, moving and attacking as a single action. So the range of my summon spell is effectively 90'. Also has grab.giant bat - flies and has echolocation. The primal list doesn't get See Invis, but with the bat it will be easy to target a Faerie Fire or Glitterdust.
crocodile - can function underwater, where my fire spells don't work.
Character Level 7:
snapping flytrap - can make two improved-grab attacks with 10' reach with no MAP (requires 2 targets)(other things) - fly, tremorsense, knockdown, acid cone
leshy - has hands and speaks common
Character Level 9:
Argh, it looks like the devs want me to summon elementals now instead of animals and plants. So my primal evolution feat won't work well at levels 9-10, unless I buy more bestiaries.------------------
I'm not seeing one supreme animal that I should just summon all of the time - several of the critters have niche uses.
The summoning gives me something to do when I can't get 2 targets in a fireball or electric arc, but there isn't a single "boss" opponent who would be a good target for Slow.
Since primal evolution gives me an extra spell slot that can only be used for summoning, summoning can be less powerful than other spells of the same level, but still good for me.
I have this on my primal sorcerer as well. I have used it a few times. Always underwhelming, but hey, it's free so why not use it sometimes. Maybe at some point will surprise me.
One of the few times when you can test summons with no opportunity cost.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I asked one of my players who has played a witch from levels 1-12 (and counting!) what her overall thoughts on the class are, what she likes and what she feels is missing.
Firstly, the familiar. She likes that it's a core part of the class, but is incredibly dissatisfied with it. Mainly because while you get to pick more features than the average familiar even without investment, there's nothing uniquely witchy about it. There's no unique or weird things that only a witch can do with their familiar. Familiars being able to assist in casting spells somehow (and not just by giving extra slots/focus) would be very nice to her.
Next, hexes. She likes the format of starting off with a spammable one and then unlocking more powerful ones as you level up, but mentions the massive power disparity between them. Many of them just feel like worse versions of things other classes can do. For instance, hers was Nudge Fate, which is just a worse version of Inspire Courage. Nudge Fate rarely made a difference because it's only a +1 to a single person, even after I houseruled it to let it turn a success into a crit. She could often just use the Aid action or go into flanking to offer a higher bonus.
One of her items is a dagger with the returning and cunning runes. To her, what she does with this dagger (deal a small amount of damage and then gain knowledge from their blood) feels more in line with what a hex cantrip should be than what she actually has.
All in all she's enjoying playing the class, but that's mostly due to her spell selection and a couple feats (Cauldron and Witch's Communion). Beyond that, there's nothing that actually feels like witchcraft. No unique rituals, no magical trinkets or heartstones, no ability to feel like a hag, just not enough weird stuff.
Keep in mind that this isn't just about power. While she agrees the class feels underpowered, she's the kind of player that would enjoy playing something that's weak if it delivers on the class fantasy, but she doesn't think the PF2...
They really need to do something with familiars. They are completely forgettable. How do I know this? Every player I have run that has had one forgets about them and doesn't bother to do much with them other than when they remember to get an extra focus point.
I forget about them as a DM because they are no danger at all and I would feel bad killing a useless familiar due to an AoE spell or effect.
They need some kind of rework or thought put into how to use them within the PF2 paradigm. They used to be good for stealth because they got a huge Stealth bonus for being tiny. But the don't get that now. And creatures have really good Perceptions now.
And getting you items in short fights where martials are brutalizing monsters without you needing to pull out the big gun spells doesn't make grabbing items very interesting any more.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Only if you are really bad at building your character. There are a lot of options for good one action abilities. CHA casters are people too and shouldn't be excluded anyway.For int casters, most of the good 1a stuff is use limited and situational. BMed, some focus spells, Shield Cantrip. It's not universally useful like Demoralise, Bon Mot, One For All, etc. is.
So Recall Knowledge, a ranged weapon attack, then there are one action spells like Clinging Ice. Yes Charisma casters have it better, but if you don't have a useful single action to do, then it is mostly because you haven't thought about it. It should be factored into your character creation.
Wizards get a lot of use out of summoning.It merely means that in a lot of cases the enemy can just ignore your summons. Which is kind of important. Watch how the players treat your summons when you GM.No reactions and no 3a abilities doesn't mean they're ignorable. Just get ones with abilities that can't be ignored.
Any recommendations?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Only if you are really bad at building your character. There are a lot of options for good one action abilities. CHA casters are people too and shouldn't be excluded anyway.For int casters, most of the good 1a stuff is use limited and situational. BMed, some focus spells, Shield Cantrip. It's not universally useful like Demoralise, Bon Mot, One For All, etc. is.
So Recall Knowledge, a ranged weapon attack, then there are one action spells like Clinging Ice. Yes Charisma casters have it better, but if you don't have a useful single action to do, then it is mostly because you haven't thought about it. It should be factored into your character creation.
Wizards get a lot of use out of summoning.It merely means that in a lot of cases the enemy can just ignore your summons. Which is kind of important. Watch how the players treat your summons when you GM.No reactions and no 3a abilities doesn't mean they're ignorable. Just get ones with abilities that can't be ignored.
Any recommendations?
Recall Knowledge and Clinging Ice fall in the category of cooldown/niche. I've never gotten much use out of recall knowledge, nor have I ever seen it been particularly useful. And that's before even accounting for the fact that it needs 5 different skills across 2 stats, with 5 different magic items.
Clinging Ice... 1 minute CD per person.
Ranged weapon attack is probably the most feasible here, just being a single level 2 feat to drop into archer and you can do it every turn.
As for recommendations My list above has what I'd consider the best summons for Summon Animal, but you can also check My summon guide for my thoughts on every summonable creature. Abilities like Grab with Reposition are simply not ignorable. You grab the enemy, now they have a choice - they escape the grab (in which case they haven't ignored the summon), they attack the summon (in which case they haven't ignored the summon) or they ignore the grab, at which point you just reposition them on the next turn so now they have to escape the grab (so they can move) and move, or attack the summon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wel oppinions are divided on Recall Knowledge, it is useful though, or at least supposed to be useful, but GMs vary.
I forgot, Meta Magic. It can be a good use of that third action.
|
|
Metamagic is similarly situational. Reach is usually good, but you don't need to use Reach all the time. Other ones are a little more specific - Silent, Conceal and Widen aren't getting used that often. Neither is Overwhelming. Forcible can get used every round, but the spells it works on are a small subset.
I've had basically all those options except a bow (because a bow occupies hand slots, which means no staff) and recall knowledge (because my experiences haven't been nice to it) on my characters and still ended up with a dead 3rd action quite often playing an Int class.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well this is the question I was responding too.
1. 3a vs 2a isn't really that big of a difference for wizards, because they basically don't have anything good to do with the 3rd action anyway (unlike those pesky cha casters who get all the good stuff).
There is plenty to do with your 3rd action as a wizard. Which I've shown. Even without getting into single action magic missile which is useful. Or maybe even a staff with magic missile in it. Or sustain the summon that you are so fond of. Personally I prefer illusions.
I certainly get that not everyone likes a caster to use a weapon.
I'm sorry that you have had bad recall knowledge experiences but I'd encourage you to keep persevering with it. Its the GMs that need to embrace it so give them another go.
But its not really fair to say no to all these perfectly good options and then say that they have none.
|
|
Well this is the question I was responding too.
1. 3a vs 2a isn't really that big of a difference for wizards, because they basically don't have anything good to do with the 3rd action anyway (unlike those pesky cha casters who get all the good stuff).
There is plenty to do with your 3rd action as a wizard. Which I've shown. Even without getting into single action magic missile which is useful. Or maybe even a staff with magic missile in it. Or sustain the summon that you are so fond of. Personally I prefer illusions.
I certainly get that not everyone likes a caster to use a weapon.
I'm sorry that you have had bad recall knowledge experiences but I'd encourage you to keep persevering with it. Its the GMs that need to embrace it so give them another go.
But its not really fair to say no to all these perfectly good options and then say that they have none.
My point being the relative cost of the 3a and continued need to sustain isn't really that large because it's competing against the following for int clases
1. Recall Knowledge
2. Shield Cantrip (Situational)
3. Metamagic (Situational)
4. Class-Based focus spells/cantrips (Use-limited)
5. Battle Medicine (Situational)
6. Weapon (Huge opportunity cost)
As an INT caster, none of your options are useful in many situations in the way Bon Mot, Demoralise and One for All are. They're much more narrow than that, so therefore the relative cost of spending the 3rd action casting a summon spell, and the continued cost of sustaining them is lower simply because the value of your 3rd action is lower.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.Yeah, I have trouble coming up with of a witch build that makes sense that does not spend feats on all three lessons. A feat that almost every character of a class takes probably should not be a feat.
As a staunch defender of the Witch as is, I think I agree with this.
If the Lessons were just granted at 4/8/12/16 (and there was an actual 16) that'd be better design in general just so Lesson wasn't the obvious choice.
Like the fact that Living Hair and Basic Lesson are in the same choice selection pool is pretty silly.
Plus like the whole concept of a Witch just never picking up another Lesson seems like it means a "dead" relationship with the Patron.
It'd also be nice if Witch Patron's granted one specific familiar ability that only Witches got or that a Witch could use a Familiar as the casting point for Hexes and spells.
I think the overall design of the Class is great, it's just the parts are missing some mustard.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sort of feel like Lessons should have been integrated into the core class, because many of the Witch's most unique and compelling options come from those... which is a little bit problematic since they're feats.Yeah, I have trouble coming up with of a witch build that makes sense that does not spend feats on all three lessons. A feat that almost every character of a class takes probably should not be a feat.As a staunch defender of the Witch as is, I think I agree with this.
If the Lessons were just granted at 4/8/12/16 (and there was an actual 16) that'd be better design in general just so Lesson wasn't the obvious choice.
Like the fact that Living Hair and Basic Lesson are in the same choice selection pool is pretty silly.
Plus like the whole concept of a Witch just never picking up another Lesson seems like it means a "dead" relationship with the Patron.
It'd also be nice if Witch Patron's granted one specific familiar ability that only Witches got or that a Witch could use a Familiar as the casting point for Hexes and spells.
I think the overall design of the Class is great, it's just the parts are missing some mustard.
Yea I've been beating that witch specific familiar abilities drum for a while. That and integrated lessons would make the class good to go. If the witch chassis is gonna focus on familiars it should be able to do things no other familiar can do. As is it's just a familiar that auto sales to six of the same abilities anyone else can have on their familiar.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been having fun with both of my witches in PFS.
One's a Fervor Witch from Nidal.
The other is a Tengu Curse Witch with the Former Aspis Agent background.
There is still no witch as badly anti-synergistic as the Tempest and Flames Oracles, which read like they were designed around having access to the Primal spell list.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Flames Oracle has zero issues getting the spells it wants to use, Divine Access is very kind to anyone who wants Fireball.
Tempest should also be in the same boat. I remember Crashing Wave not being accessible through a deity yet but most every other relevant water spell should be.
Thanks to Divine Access, those two mysteries should be able to keep up as long as they pump out new deities with new spells.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Divine Access doesn't require you to have a diety, you just choose a deity associated with your domain and gain their spells when selecting the feat.
Divine Access doesn't require you to have a diety, you just choose a deity associated with your domain and gain their spells when selecting the feat.
Yeah, you can definitely flavor the feat via "I have no personal opinion on Lysianassa one way or the other, but via some cosmic accident I have access to some of her power."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That does mean they’re effectively taxed out of feats to get the spells they need though, and it’s contingent on having a deity with the right spell.
Not much of a tax though, since its hardly an actual 'need' especially as more spells come out-- its more like a want, your features don't invest a lot of power in you using non-revelation fire spells, there's only one feature that incentivizes you to use a fire trait spell, and it doesn't effect area spells to begin with so anything with an AOE is a good choice there-- because its not an actual benefit, it just makes single target spells harder to land unless it has the fire trait.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Divine Access doesn't require you to have a diety, you just choose a deity associated with your domain and gain their spells when selecting the feat.
I think Exocist meant just having a deity that exists with the right spell, but you’re absolutely right.
With SoM, for example, any new non-divine fire, air, and water spell will be inacessible to the two elemental mysteries respectively up until we get deities that grant them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Divine Access doesn't require you to have a diety, you just choose a deity associated with your domain and gain their spells when selecting the feat.Yeah, you can definitely flavor the feat via "I have no personal opinion on Lysianassa one way or the other, but via some cosmic accident I have access to some of her power."
That’s basically the whole conceit of the Oracle class.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yea I've been beating that witch specific familiar abilities drum for a while. That and integrated lessons would make the class good to go. If the witch chassis is gonna focus on familiars it should be able to do things no other familiar can do. As is it's just a familiar that auto sales to six of the same abilities anyone else can have on their familiar.
Yeah like if anything was Patron specific, I would have liked to see the Familiar get an ability that's patron specific.
I would have loved something that created more cohesion with casting your hexes too:
Eyes of Night - "Your familiar eyes are accustomed to the dark. On any turn in which you cast or sustain a spell with the Darkness trait, your familiar gains darkvision. If your familiar already has darkvision it instead gains the ability to see in magical darkness that originates from spells you cast. If your familiar is adjacent to you, you also benefit from these effects."
Flowing Fate - "Your familiar is a tool of fate. Whenever you cast Nudge Fate or a spell with the fortune trait on ally, your familiar receives the benefits of the spell cast until the start of your next turn. If it occupies your square, you also receive the benefits until the start of your next turn."
Accursed Knowledge - "Your familiar gleans knowledge from the targets of your curse. When a target fails a save against a spell or hex with the Curse trait, your familiar may roll a Recall Knowledge check against the target. If you are trained in the appropriate skill, it receives a +1 circumstance bonus to this check. If you are at least a master in the appropriate skill, the circumstance bonus increases to +3."
Empathetic Emotion - "Your familiar is a conduit of emotion. While your familiar is adjacent to you, you receive a +1 circumstance bonus against savings throws with the Emotion trait. At 13th level, if your familiar is adjacent to an enemy, it receives a -1 circumstance penalty to savings throws with the Emotion trait."
Runic Mark - "Your familiar knows the power of runes. Once per day on a turn in which you cast a spell, you may command your familiar to grant a fundamental rune to a piece of equipment it can touch of your level. The familiar must be adjacent to deliver the rune. At 13th level, your familiar can instead add property runes with the common trait."
Call of the Wild - "Your familiar has the ability to call its brethren. Once per day, your familiar can cast the spell Summon Animal or Summon Plant/Fungus at the highest level spell you can cast so long as the creature summoned is of the same type of creature as the familiar."
Icy Proximity - "Your familiar can channel your cold magic as well as you can. Whenever you cast a spell with the Cold trait, you may choose to use either yourself or your familiar when determining the point of casting."
Idk something where the familiar actually feels integrated into the playstyle.
These are kinda off the cuff but I kinda like them (and yes some are beefier because of their corresponding hex being a bit meh).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yea I've been beating that witch specific familiar abilities drum for a while. That and integrated lessons would make the class good to go. If the witch chassis is gonna focus on familiars it should be able to do things no other familiar can do. As is it's just a familiar that auto sales to six of the same abilities anyone else can have on their familiar.
Yeah like if anything was Patron specific, I would have liked to see the Familiar get an ability that's patron specific.
I would have loved something that created more cohesion with casting your hexes too:
Eyes of Night - "Your familiar eyes are accustomed to the dark. On any turn in which you cast or sustain a spell with the Darkness trait, your familiar gains darkvision. If your familiar already has darkvision it instead gains the ability to see in magical darkness that originates from spells you cast. If your familiar is adjacent to you, you also benefit from these effects."
Flowing Fate - "Your familiar is a tool of fate. Whenever you cast Nudge Fate or a spell with the fortune trait on ally, your familiar receives the benefits of the spell cast until the start of your next turn. If it occupies your square, you also receive the benefits until the start of your next turn."
Accursed Knowledge - "Your familiar gleans knowledge from the targets of your curse. When a target fails a save against a spell or hex with the Curse trait, your familiar may roll a Recall Knowledge check against the target. If you are trained in the appropriate skill, it receives a +1 circumstance bonus to this check. If you are at least a master in the appropriate skill, the circumstance bonus increases to +3."
Empathetic Emotion - "Your familiar is a conduit of emotion. While your familiar is adjacent to you, you receive a +1 circumstance bonus against savings throws with the Emotion trait. At 13th level, if your familiar is adjacent to an enemy, it receives a -1 circumstance penalty to savings throws...
If Familiars weren't so god-awful, this wouldn't be so bad. It's not unlike the Work Together effects of Animal Companions, just differently done. Some of these are still really lame or are on the same vein of Wilding Words, but a few could be potentially useful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like the idea of patron specific familiar abilities. The witch I tried to play had Baba Yaga as their patron who had their familiar as a fashionable top hat (that sometimes has eyes, fangs, and spider legs) and picking out familiar abilities for something that is going to spend almost all of its time on your head was pretty blah.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If Familiars weren't so god-awful, this wouldn't be so bad. It's not unlike the Work Together effects of Animal Companions, just differently done. Some of these are still really lame or are on the same vein of Wilding Words, but a few could be potentially useful.
I think considering the Witch can lose their Familiar for a day and basically have 0 consequences, I would disagree since these sort of give that value back on familiars.
As for some being lame, they were deliberately tuned considering the paired Hex Cantrip for each Patron.
For that reason, Accursed Knowledge is I suppose one of "lamer" ones, but its intended to be mostly flavorful with minor benefit intentionally because Evil Eye is the gold standard of Hex Cantrips.
I like the idea of patron specific familiar abilities. The witch I tried to play had Baba Yaga as their patron who had their familiar as a fashionable top hat (that sometimes has eyes, fangs, and spider legs) and picking out familiar abilities for something that is going to spend almost all of its time on your head was pretty blah.
If I was trying to think of a good one for Baba Yaga I would try to go with something along these lines:
Refocus Activity - "Choose an activity that would be relevant to your chosen familiar item. While engaging in this activity, you can regain focus points as normal so long as you use your item to perform that activity."
Then if you choose like a "Cauldron" and use that to brew medicine or something, you can regain focus points while treating wounds.
Or if you're using your Broom to fly for scouting, you also regain a focus point.
A little more free-form and up to GM, but it's a Rare patron anyways.
____________
Oh as an aside, in my mind I figured these were "free" familiar abilities that did not need to be selected but can't be replaced with another ability for instance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That does mean they’re effectively taxed out of feats to get the spells they need though, and it’s contingent on having a deity with the right spell.
Oracle's feat list is kiiiiinda lackluster so getting taxed out of feats isn't that big of a deal for the class unless there's some shiny archetype you want a lot of feats from or if you actually want one of the focus spells from your mystery.
Now the deity part is an issue but if you can't find the spell you really, really want there's always Mysterious Repertoire which can get you a single spell of your choice onto your list. It is 14th level though so you will be waiting a while.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The deity part isn't really an issue for Oracles, since divine access for them lets them cherry-pick from any deity associated with their mystery. I also think people are overstating how 'necessary' the feat is. I'd probably take it on most oracles, but more because I dislike the divine list than because the class can't function without it.
The only real problem with the feat is you can only swap out one spell when you level up and the feat gives you up to three. Should really give you the ability to swap those spells in when you take the feat as part of its benefit.
As for some being lame, they were deliberately tuned considering the paired Hex Cantrip for each Patron.
For that reason, Accursed Knowledge is I suppose one of "lamer" ones, but its intended to be mostly flavorful with minor benefit intentionally because Evil Eye is the gold standard of Hex Cantrips.
IDK I'd rather have free knowledge checks than a conditional +1 that I probably won't use most rounds or an ability that requires me to send my familiar out ahead so I can cast from it or have it apply a really minor debuff.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The deity part isn't really an issue for Oracles, since divine access for them lets them cherry-pick from any deity associated with their mystery. I also think people are overstating how 'necessary' the feat is. I'd probably take it on most oracles, but more because I dislike the divine list than because the class can't function without it.
The only real problem with the feat is you can only swap out one spell when you level up and the feat gives you up to three. Should really give you the ability to swap those spells in when you take the feat as part of its benefit.
Yes Divine Access has got silly limitations on it. It should enable you to swap in as many of those spells as you want. But when you take it you are leveling so you can add one spell to your repetoire and also swap in another. So you can take 2 spells straight out.
IDK I'd rather have free knowledge checks than a conditional +1 that I probably won't use most rounds or an ability that requires me to send my familiar out ahead so I can cast from it or have it apply a really minor debuff.As for some being lame, they were deliberately tuned considering the paired Hex Cantrip for each Patron.
For that reason, Accursed Knowledge is I suppose one of "lamer" ones, but its intended to be mostly flavorful with minor benefit intentionally because Evil Eye is the gold standard of Hex Cantrips.
Yes. Familiars are reasonably useful, but I don't favour any of the options for putting them at risk.
That does mean they’re effectively taxed out of feats to get the spells they need though, and it’s contingent on having a deity with the right spell.Oracle's feat list is kiiiiinda lackluster so getting taxed out of feats isn't that big of a deal for the class unless there's some shiny archetype you want a lot of feats from or if you actually want one of the focus spells from your mystery.
I've noticed this too. Building oracles kind of sucks due to their uninspiring feat choices.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've noticed this too. Building oracles kind of sucks due to their uninspiring feat choices.That does mean they’re effectively taxed out of feats to get the spells they need though, and it’s contingent on having a deity with the right spell.Oracle's feat list is kiiiiinda lackluster so getting taxed out of feats isn't that big of a deal for the class unless there's some shiny archetype you want a lot of feats from or if you actually want one of the focus spells from your mystery.
Thankfully Divine Access and archetypes that give out focus spells are both things. Splash in Blessed One dedication and bada bing, bada boom, you have a ton of Lay on Hands points to heal up the party with. Flavorful too. Even if you actually want to use your curse it gives you something to do with the spare focus points you may or may not have that doesn't put you further into your curse state.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
IDK I'd rather have free knowledge checks than a conditional +1 that I probably won't use most rounds or an ability that requires me to send my familiar out ahead so I can cast from it or have it apply a really minor debuff.
I do consider Stoke the Heart and Clinging Ice as good or nearly as good as Evil Eye, so that's a portion of the thought on why those are relatively weak.
But in the case of Empathetic Emotion, the +1 applies against Demoralize, so I think that's actually pretty decent considering it and frightful presence are common.
And in the case of casting from Familiar ability, I think that's pretty valuable for obvious reasons (it's essentially a bonus familiar action on top of what Reach Spell would be but in whatever speed directions the familiar can move).
I wasn't particularly married to either mechanical benefit, only the themes around them: Empathetic Emotion was on the familiar causing greater emotional impact since it's 'Fervor', and for the familiar to be a facilitator of cold in the same regard (I could have gone Ice Resistance in a similar fashion, but wanted to explore the idea of not just going with the same familiar ability only tweaked a bunch of times).
Heck, you could even take the above concept and instead of going with "Unique familiars" which grant bundles of Abilities at a discount, and go with abilities that cost two or three instead of the one that are only available to Witch.
But then I also don't see the problem with putting familiars at risk. It basically amounts to a once per day ability in the event that it goes south (and Phase Familiar can at least help there) due to this:
If your familiar dies, your patron replaces it during your next daily preparations. The new familiar might be a duplicate or reincarnation of your former familiar or a new entity altogether, but it knows the same spells your former familiar knew regardless. Your familiar's death doesn't affect any spells you have already prepared.
The biggest consequence to losing your familiar is that you can't Refocus without your familiar. Outside that and not having a Familiar for the remainder of a 24 hour period, there are no real major penalties to losing your familiar.
Last encounter of the day or against the BBEG? Why wouldn't you send the familiar in? Isn't that actually thematic to a Witch as a latch ditch effort?
Even then, I wouldn't be opposed to a Witch-specific Familiar ability where you get some kind of spiritual Communion which allows you to Commune with the familiar as if it were alive for the purposes of the Refocus activity.
But then, I do not think Witches are that far off the mark outside the more niche cantrip hexes needing some potential attention (my homebrew for Wildling Word where you can choose non-eligible targets but they receive the benefits of incapacitation made my player happy).
_______________________________________
Anyways, all I'm trying to say is a little push on Witch-specific Familiar abilities could make a pretty monumental difference while also taking care of issues that people have complained about thematically.
Are the above great examples? They have flaws I'm sure (heck I didnt even specify a duration on the Rune one by accident lol) but they were mostly meant to exercise what could be possible in that space to potentially solve what people perceive to be the problem. I like the Witch, and I dont think they need much adjustment to work (if any, none of my witches have said anything but good things) but I recognize others have issues with the class here.
One of the most common retorts when people emphasize what they gain in Familiars can be done by the Wizard (which isn't really true IMO because Witches get Incredible Familiar and Phase Familiar), by claim of the Thesis.
But I recognize that forcing all Witches to get "Incredible Familiar" to justify their base class feature isn't a fair one. Just like I don't like Lessons being optional.
So if the intent is to narrow the Witch from making objectively bad decisions and evening the power range of the floor/ceiling while helping its themes in the process? Who wouldn't want that.
I also tend to think what would Paizo realistically ever do? Printing new Familiar ability choices for Witch only seems like a pretty uninvasive way to buff the Witch directly without too much reprinting. At least in the vein of what they did with Alchemist.
But to me when people say Familiars are bad, it's like when I hear people say Recall Knowledge is bad because the GM can choose to run it in a way that makes it almost useless.
It's just not my experience to run RK that way, nor is it from a decent portion of people.
I think saying a familiar is bad because it can be mushed by a single enemy attack just doesn't seem fair as an assessment to me. Heck, that's a 1 action tax even if it could one-shot a creature with your AC, which isn't by any stretch a guarantee or even statistically likely (especially if you use Phase Familiar). Is something that taxes *two* actions taxed in a day, not something that someone can generally do once per day anyway?
And my personal experience with "Familiars are bad" is not only the total opposite, but I've had some pretty incredible narrative play as a result of them being a thing. They can't make Strikes but that doesn't mean they are terrible, especially when they have almost no consequences for dying in the case of the Witch.