I don't.
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Some of it is flexibility. The more of your class kit that's spent on prepared casting, the less likely you are to have useless abilities. So the worry about having your abilities be useless is replaced with the worry that you'll run out of abilities. Further, you know that if there's an insurmountable obstacle, there's probably a spell out there somewhere to solve the problem.
Another major component is removing failure chance. You can't fail to cast haste, create pit, wall of stone, or something like that; so you don't need to worry about failing against CR boosting DMs. There's decent guides out there for avoiding spells that require saves or spell penetration checks.
There's thematic things as well. Looking like a sort of regular and fairly defenseless person while being protected by invisible forces and wielding hidden power, is all pretty cool. You'll frequently run into encounters where the person hardest to hit is the one with mirror image cast.
The stand back and plink with a crossbow style isn't exciting, I agree there. Particularly if your group combines both the shooting through allies and shooting into combat modifiers. At that point holding a crossbow isn't worth the weight. But exciting isn't something I enjoy all the time, making broad strategic choices that change the encounter is much more satisfying.
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I myself have been thinking that I should try them sometime but every time I look at them I worry about running out of spells and being useless for the rest of the day.
The simple solution to that concern is just play a witch. Hexes are great at low level.
It's rare to run out of spells before your party runs out of hp. But this is what wands and scrolls are for.
The concern of running out of spells is a real one at low-levels. But consider: hit points are a resource as well. If a fighter with 13hp and AC16 loses an average of 2hp each round of melee combat, then he can effectively only use his spell "greatsword" around 6-7 times a day.
Spells like sleep and color spray can instantly end a wide variety of encounters on their own. Summon monster and obscuring mist insanely versatile. Grease and ray of enfeeblement can shut down extremely powerful opponents.
And once you have 3rd level spells and up, you quickly leave concerns about running out of spells behind, and suddenly have an answer to almost any problem and the ability to do things no one else can do. And those encounter-ending spell options just keep expanding on top of it. So you're a glass cannon, but also the troubleshooter and controller. You're the best, full stop.
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The crossbow and long spear are for low levels (when cantrips are still meaningful too) and long days. By third or fourth level you shouldn't really need them, especially if you can scribe scrolls. The sorcerer IMC has carried a crossbow and dagger since level 1; she shot the bow maybe a dozen times (mostly at targets too distant for spells) and used the dagger only for eating dinner.
I like the versatility of full arcane casters; you can do battle, you can do social, and if things go really bad, you are able to retreat in ways nobody else can.
Teleport at higher levels is your get-out-of-jail/encounter free card, and a well-prepared Invisibility can prevent a TPK. Never underestimate Invisibility!
So, This might be a odd question but I'm curious why YOU like the 9th level arcane casters?
They make good villains.
Ok, on a more serious note: I like a few cantrips and the first three spell levels of the sorc / wiz list. They offer a wealth of options, so you are not restricted to do the same thing / few things over and over during a whole campaign. Spell levels 4 and higher feel increasingly broken (and uninspired in comparison), so I find them way less interesting. Hence I usually prefer multiclassing over a "pure" full arcane caster.
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If you think you might need to carry the party because one or more players are {absent from many sessions, playing a character based purely on flavour, just incompetent at playing the game} and the GM isn't willing to make allowances, a full spellcaster can do that sometimes. Or similarly there's the power fantasy angle for you, or if you want to play a character with more flavour than practicality 9-level spellcasting can make up for weak choices elsewhere. A wizard can use every one of their feats on useless stuff and still make a decent contribution - the same is not true of a rogue.
Multiple reasons.
From a game system standpoint, AD&D 1st/2nd, D&D 3.x, and PF1 tend to skew things toward casters in general and arcane casters with 9th-level spells in particular. They get more/better options, especially at higher levels.
From a campaign effectiveness standpoint, the arcane spell lists are usually the most versatile and have an "answer" to just about any situation. Healing (to include status removal as well as straight hp) being one of the exceptions for most arcane casters with 9th-level spells; there are a few options that can function at healing, but not as well as an optimized divine healer.
From a player standpoint, that versatility allows a very wide range of concepts that are viable (or even "optimal," for the hardcore min/maxers); especially with possible multiclassing and/or prestige classes. You can play dozens (or more) different versions of each base class arcane caster with 9th-level spells and still be effective, with a bit of planning around the system mechanics.
If you're worried about the "conservation of resources" aspect of arcane casters, then you may want to consider sorcerers over arcanist, witch, or wizard. Sorcerers normally have sufficient spell slots and bloodline abilities to do "something magical" almost every round of combat.
Wizards require a bit more planning and preparation. Wizards should be using Scribe Scroll early and often (and possibly taking Craft Wand at 5th level) to have copies of spells that they either want to cast multiple times (also candidates for wands) or that they might not need often, but if they do they need it bad (such as comprehend languages, rope trick, spider climb, dispel magic, water breathing, etc.).
If even sorcerers are troubling, then one possibility is to go the multiclassing/prestige class route where the character has good options other than spells:
1) One option, even with just the Core Rulebook, is [fighter or ranger]* 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8. With a high Dex and Int, the character is a good to strong archer (ending up with +17 BAB) as well as a good to strong caster (ending up with spells as a 17th-level wizard and 9th-level spells). At lower levels, this is very efficient; you will be able to attack effectively as an archer most rounds and use your spells to swing the outcome when necessary (probably no more than one or two spells per fight, if that). At 11th-13th character level (when Imbue Arrow and 5th-level spells/Quicken Spell come online), you can pull all sorts of tricks that mix battlefield control and direct damage; at 14th character level, you can completely shut down enemy casters by shooting them with an arrow Imbued with antimagic field (with a Quickened true strike to almost guarantee a hit).
2) For a melee-focused option, [barbarian or paladin]** 2/sorcerer (Draconic bloodline) 3/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10/sorcerer +1 can be pretty strong. You only end up with 8th-level spells, though (+17 BAB and spells as a 16th-level sorcerer).
There are plenty of other possible combinations using later books, as well: For example, swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1/arcanist (blade arcanist) 6/eldritch knight 10/arcanist +3 with Fencing Grace for Dex to damage with a rapier at 1st level, Eldritch Blade (to keep your black blade rapier scaling with CL) and Spell Strike exploits (to add spell damage to rapier damage), and +15 BAB and 9th-level spells at 20th level; no full attack with an extra attack using Spell Combat like a magus, but more and better spells. A variation might be fighter 1/arcanist (blade arcanist) 6/eldritch knight 10/arcanist +3 with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) and the Whip Mastery feats using their whip as their "black blade" (note that Sword Bond only specifies "a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon;" a whip is a one-handed melee weapon that does slashing damage) and Spell Strike to deliver touch spells at 15 ft reach.
*- depending on if you want a bonus feat from fighter or Favored Enemy (Humaniod (Human) is usually a good choice in campaigns not focused around a specific theme) and the ability to use wands of cure light wounds without Use Magic Device checks
**- depending on if you want the rage bonuses from barbarian or Smite Evil, Divine Grace, and other benefits from paladin (also including the ability to use wands of cure light wounds without Use Magic Device checks)
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So, This might be a odd question but I'm curious why YOU like the 9th level arcane casters?
Because you can use your spells in a way that gives the entire party an advantage, and swing a possibly loosing situation into a winning one.
A lot of guides / advice tend to look at characters in isolation - and if that's the way you build the character then yes, 'plinking away' sounds boring. But if you think of it as "round one, give the party a significant tactical advantage, round two stand back and admire your handiwork whilst the rest of the party take advantage of it (oh and maybe toss a cantrip into the fight to show willing)".
Also, a lot of the fun lies in finding new spells and thinking "how can I use this in an unusual/interesting / creative way to resolve a situation?". Like using Cause Fear to chase a dominated character away from the thing controlling it, or Create Pit to hide the party from something really big and scary.
Except for the fact that I apparently am completely incapable of banning anything at my table, I have been toying with the idea of not allowing 9th level casting classes, at all.
I think that the game immediately becomes more fun, and certainly more challenging, without access to 7th level and above spells. I think Magi and Bards and Warpriests are infinitely more interesting than Wizards and Sorcerers and Clerics.
Just think about all the actual creativity that will happen when you DON'T have a spell for that!
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I like the shaman; a very broad spell list, hexes, and with the Speaker for the Past archetype, revelations. There's so many different ways you can build them.
I'm playing a Speaker for the Past caster build in Strange Aeons, and recently completed Ironfang Invasion with a melee-oriented Flame Spirit no-archetype shaman.
Except for the fact that I apparently am completely incapable of banning anything at my table, I have been toying with the idea of not allowing 9th level casting classes, at all.
I think that the game immediately becomes more fun, and certainly more challenging, without access to 7th level and above spells. I think Magi and Bards and Warpriests are infinitely more interesting than Wizards and Sorcerers and Clerics.
Just think about all the actual creativity that will happen when you DON'T have a spell for that!
I can second this line of thought. My only problem occurs is just how important condition removal is as you grow in levels.
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I usually just go for direct damage spell-like abilities. Dealing 1d6 + 1/2 levels of fire damage, or acid damage, is pretty low even at 1st-level, but it's a touch attack. A crossbow does not ignore armor. In addition, this accuracy is important because a wizard probably does not want to waste feats on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.
I have a newfound respect for the little blast powers some schools and domains (playing a wood elementalist wizard currently). Yes, they become pretty irrelevant after a few levels, but for the early levels they are a nice cushion against not having many spells.
I have a newfound respect for the little blast powers some schools and domains (playing a wood elementalist wizard currently). Yes, they become pretty irrelevant after a few levels, but for the early levels they are a nice cushion against not having many spells.
They're already irrelevant at level 1. Ray of Frost (+ Liquid Ice) and Acid Splash (+Acid flask) are infinite-use cantrips, that do ~3 damage (1d3+1), compared to the ~4 damage of such an ability (1d6 +1/2 per level). And the cantrips can be strengthened by bloodline arcanas, traits, equipment, feats, ...
Or take a simple ranged weapon.
The low-level powers are some of the most important for any character, because you will have them with your pc for their entire career. A great 9th-level power is pretty useless if you never play beyond character level 8. So it's important to make sure you get something good, otherwise trade it for an archetype or some other variant.
I have a newfound respect for the little blast powers some schools and domains (playing a wood elementalist wizard currently). Yes, they become pretty irrelevant after a few levels, but for the early levels they are a nice cushion against not having many spells.They're already irrelevant at level 1. Ray of Frost (+ Liquid Ice) and Acid Splash (+Acid flask) are infinite-use cantrips, that do ~3 damage (1d3+1), compared to the ~4 damage of such an ability (1d6 +1/2 per level). And the cantrips can be strengthened by bloodline arcanas, traits, equipment, feats, ...
Or take a simple ranged weapon.
The low-level powers are some of the most important for any character, because you will have them with your pc for their entire career. A great 9th-level power is pretty useless if you never play beyond character level 8. So it's important to make sure you get something good, otherwise trade it for an archetype or some other variant.
This is good advice. Get used to plinking with a crossbow (you can always pick up a Mage's Crossbow later to help with SR). But having a decent/useful low level power is the only reason not to trade it away for something else that is decent/useful. Seriously, it will be there your whole career, don't drag around a dead ability that will literally never see use after level 4.
They're already irrelevant at level 1. Ray of Frost (+ Liquid Ice) and Acid Splash (+Acid flask) are infinite-use cantrips, that do ~3 damage (1d3+1), compared to the ~4 damage of such an ability (1d6 +1/2 per level). And the cantrips can be strengthened by bloodline arcanas, traits, equipment, feats, ...Or take a simple ranged weapon.
Well I found splintered spear does a whole lot more than 4 damage on average and is a lot more accurate than crossbow, given it uses int as the attack modifer and does d6+int+bleed 1 for damage.
As a standard action, you can create a wooden shortspear appropriate to your size, which hurls itself as a ranged attack against one target within 100 feet (range penalties apply), using your Intelligence modifier as an attack bonus instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. The spear deals normal damage according to its size, plus your Intelligence modifier, then breaks into countless splinters; the target takes 1 point of bleed damage each round on its turn. At 6th-level and every 6 levels thereafter, the spear gains a +1 enhancement bonus and the bleed damage increases by +1. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
They're already irrelevant at level 1. Ray of Frost (+ Liquid Ice) and Acid Splash (+Acid flask) are infinite-use cantrips, that do ~3 damage (1d3+1), compared to the ~4 damage of such an ability (1d6 +1/2 per level). And the cantrips can be strengthened by bloodline arcanas, traits, equipment, feats, ...
Hrm, personally I prefer a 1d6 power with built-in slow scaling over a cantrip that needs extra investment to get steam. 3 + casting attribute modifier uses per day is nearly as good as infinite, and if I ever run out of the 1d6 power, I can still use a cantrip.
At level 1 the 1d6 power averages at 3.5 damage, killing a CR 1 creature with reference HP (15) in a bit more than 4 rounds (assuming everything hits). At level 2, the +1 damage compensates roughly the additional 5 HP, so it's still a bit more than 4 rounds. That's not amazing, but way better than 7.5 rounds at level 1 (2 damage vs. 15 HP) and 10 rounds at 2 (still 2 damage, now vs. 20 HP).
Well I found splintered spear does a whole lot more than 4 damage on average and is a lot more accurate than crossbow, given it uses int as the attack modifer and does d6+int+bleed 1 for damage.
That's somewhat true, but these rare Wizard schools are an exception. After all, you can't trade away any of those powers, but you have to take all of them as a package.
However, accuracy isn't much better than a crossbow: Shortspears have a 20ft range, which means at a range of >20ft you have a -2 penalty to hit, and at 40ft+ it's a -4 penalty [60ft+: -6; 80ft+: -8], while the crossbow shoots up to 80ft without penalty. And since every wizard takes at least some DEX for AC and Reflex, there's not much left of your higher INT modifier when taking such penalties.
And at higher levels, you can easily improve the crossbow [if you even need it any more] with enchantments, special bolts, and other shenanigans, which grows quicker than your INT modifier, also catching up on the initially higher damage of Splintered Spear.
Hrm, personally I prefer a 1d6 power with built-in slow scaling over a cantrip that needs extra investment to get steam. 3 + casting attribute modifier uses per day is nearly as good as infinite, and if I ever run out of the 1d6 power, I can still use a cantrip.
Brimstone is just 1gp for +1 acid damage and therefore free for anyone with Eschew Materials (sorcerers). An acid flask is 10gp, which is the price of a simple weapon, usable by everyone. Liquid ice is 40gp, more expensive, but still easily affordable. And these options raise the damage from 2 (1d3) to 3 (1d3+1) [or to 4 (1d3+2) if Brimstone + Acid Flask possible]. And it still stacks with all improvements to spell damage (like arcanas, traits, equipments, ...).
Edit: A sorcerer with the Draconic (Black) bloodline and the Havoc of the Society trait, buys an Acid flask for 10gp and can do 6 damage (1d3 + 4) at level 1.
Brimstone is just 1gp for +1 acid damage and therefore free for anyone with Eschew Materials (sorcerers). An acid flask is 10gp, which is the price of a simple weapon, usable by everyone. Liquid ice is 40gp, more expensive, but still easily affordable. And these options raise the damage from 2 (1d3) to 3 (1d3+1) [or to 4 (1d3+2) if Brimstone + Acid Flask possible]. And it still stacks with all improvements to spell damage (like arcanas, traits, equipments, ...).
Edit: A sorcerer with the Draconic (Black) bloodline and the Havoc of the Society trait, buys an Acid flask for 10gp and can do 6 damage (1d3 + 4) at level 1.
I give you the acid flask argument. Liquid ice costs about half the start wealth of a sorcerer / wizard, and competes with getting 1 or 2 scrolls (for example). Everything else is situation specific (sorcerer, brimstone might stack with acid flask, specific sorcerer bloodline, specific trait) and surely works to argue why cantrips are better for specific casters - but not to make a general point.
NOBODY plays a 9th level caster for Acid Splash + Acid Flask + Brimstone... nobody. Someone MIGHT hinge off of that trick with an Arcane Trickster, but even that is probably less than optimal.
I have two arcane full casters in my PFS stable, a 12th witch (who I have yet to play at Seeker tier), and a 9th-level sorcerer. They're not my most optimized PCs, but they're some of the more fun ones to play.
Mariko is a white-haired witch, so gives up hexes for a natural attack that improves as she levels. Having a 1/2-BAB class with a melee schtick has been challenging, and I've had to radically alter her tactics every few levels, but I've mostly been able to make it work. At lower to mid-levels, she favored spectral hand so she could "bad touch" enemies she couldn't reach with her hair (or didn't want to get that close to). Now that she has 4th- and 5th-level spells, however, the hair attack is mostly used to help provide flanking and threaten AoO's over a wide area, while she uses spells like black tentacles, feeblemind, and hold monster to quickly shut down enemies (rather than spending rounds setting up touch attacks).
Mahesh is a serpentine sorcerer, so at low levels, his spell repertoire consisted of very basic attack and defense, plus a few handy enchantments that his bloodline made more versatile. Now that he's higher level, he's a full-fledged blaster and rarely uses his "softer" offensive spells except in very specific situations. He wasn't remotely built for close-up fighting, so has never actually used his 1st-level bloodline power (growing fangs) to attack, and only rarely to threaten enemies.
And, rather incidentally, both usually end up as the "face" character of any table they join. Mahesh's Charisma lends itself easily to Diplomacy, and Mariko has invested in that and other interaction skills because she's also an Exchange merchant.
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NOBODY plays a 9th level caster for Acid Splash + Acid Flask + Brimstone... nobody. Someone MIGHT hinge off of that trick with an Arcane Trickster, but even that is probably less than optimal.
While this may be true, most people do start their 9th level caster at level 1. Many bloodlines or wizard schools don't have an offensive power, so they have to figure out what they are going to do in a fight when they aren't casting one of their 4 spells per day, and this is a decent suggestion.
Daze is another go to spell for 1st level arcane casters who can't think of something better to do.
I think one of the big deterrents for players not playing a 9th level caster is the struggle of getting through the low levels before you actually get to the cool high level spells that are the reason you want to play the character.
I give you the acid flask argument. Liquid ice costs about half the start wealth of a sorcerer / wizard, and competes with getting 1 or 2 scrolls (for example). Everything else is situation specific (sorcerer, brimstone might stack with acid flask, specific sorcerer bloodline, specific trait) and surely works to argue why cantrips are better for specific casters - but not to make a general point.
We're talking about full arcane casters here, so sorcerers are like a third of those. The others are wizards, with the arcanist being a wizard/sorcerer hybrid. Witches have hexes, which are somewhat like cantrips and definitely stronger than crossbows. The thread could include psychics, I guess, with arcane/psychic magic being closely related in play style; and psychics get a 1d6 cantrip that works pretty much like a crossbow, yet combines wonderfully with Nodes of Blasting later.
So no need for weak 1st-level powers either.
Spellcasters can be a lot of fun to play. If you play from level one, you'll most likely NEVER reach ninth level spells, so the talk of how powerful they are is really moot.
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Spellcasters can be a lot of fun to play. If you play from level one, you'll most likely NEVER reach ninth level spells, so the talk of how powerful they are is really moot.
This is why I rarely play them. The allure of the spellcaster to me is to wield those high level magics. If the game is not going to get there, then I'd rather play a different character that gets to do their thing in the level rage the game will be in. I'll pretty much only do a 9th level caster if I know the game is going to go to high levels.
Well, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a God gives a whole bunch of good reasons. The guide is somewhat outdated given all the new content for 1e, but is still great.
There's a bunch of reasons why I personally love playing them, in particular prepared arcane casters.
The most obvious reason is power. Even if you never get to the levels where things get completely bonkers, you still become extremely powerful in relatively short order. Especially if you plan things out.
This takes me to my next reason, which is planning and scheming. You can do anything if you plan for it, and plan well.
Arcane magic enables a more "mad scientist" kind of scheming than Divine does, which I enjoy. I'm a big fan of prepared casting despite its weaknesses, simply because the problem of potentially getting stuck with the wrong spells prepared is interesting to me. I'm mentioning this because Wizards generally have to deal with this problem more than Clerics due to the nature of their respective classes.
As a Wizard, you end up playing out various scenarios in your head, planning options for your action economy down to the letter while preparing your spells.
In addition, magic item creation is another good reason. This role isn't right for all tables, but it can be very enjoyable.
Another major attraction is the character progression as their abilities grow. They start off as a weakling and slowly become exponentially more powerful, which is an interesting RP journey. But since you're a d6 hit-die, half BAB character, even though you will eventually be able to bend reality to your will, you'll still need your friends' help when moving heavy furniture. This is hilarious to RP.
do not like. when I was younger, they liked me, they mostly played with them. and now I suddenly began to like various fighters with abilities, brawlers, bloodragers
People appear to like 9th level Arcane casters because they have an answer for everything, even if you have to anticipate it/plan for it... but isn't this literally removing the challenge from the game? You literally are given the keys to every lock... where is the mystery or excitement in that?
How do you sleep at night? Probably very well, magically protected and possibly even with magically enhanced sleep, because you can. Honestly though, you must be very proud of your characters achievements... you worked so hard for them. Lol.
Spellcasters can be a lot of fun to play. If you play from level one, you'll most likely NEVER reach ninth level spells, so the talk of how powerful they are is really moot.
I managed to take my primary Witch from level 1 to level 15 over a six year campaign, so got 8th level spells.
In her final session she managed to Death Clutch out a wizard's heart and use the removed organ to curse the terrain of his hometown. Was a very cool end to her career for me. That's why I love 9th level arcane - just some totally crazy stuff they can do from about level 5 up, getting increasingly more nuts as they progress.
I love arcane casters for their flexibility and problem solving, BUT I will caveat with the fact that I have only played one character to the point where they could cast 9th level spells (Crazy Tomas, my witch in the final book of Strange Aeons).
So for me the fun is in playing them in the golden zone of the game (c. Levels 4-12 IMHO), where you have lots of options, but not the ‘I recreate reality to my own shape’ silliness. At those levels running out of spells and being squishy are real things.