Or have the Magus class path decide between E/M and M/E Magic/Weapon, with the ability to (in a pinch) get a +2 accuracy bonus to the other one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's so esoteric for someone who doesn't troll the forums constantly, with dubious balance payoff.
Proficiencies don't need to be that complicated, and they aren't the only thing that makes a class strong. Make them good at their job (hitting things with weapons and spells) and balance around that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Master weapons and Expert casting is a hard no. Master in spellcasting is the something everyone can have access to (which makes Expert in spells more comparable to Trained in weapons).
Additionally, it would mean Magi could bump their spellcasting proficiency up a tier by multiclassing into another casting class, which is problematic for obvious reasons.
I'm pretty confident we're not going to see a class that caps out at Expert in spellcasting or Trained in weapons.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would expect Magus Proficiencies to go something like this:
1st: Trained in Perception, Attacks, AC, Fort, Ref, and Spells. Expert in Will.
3rd: Expert in Fort.
5th: Expert in Perception, Expert in Attacks.
7th: Expert in Spells.
9th: Master in Will.
11th: Expert in Reflex.
13th: Master in Attacks, Expert in AC.
19th: Master in Spells, Master in AC.
That matches Attack/AC Progressions for Barbarian, and Spell, Perception, and Save Progression of Warpriest (the example we have of a Master capped caster), except for not getting a second save to Master by default.
So...that looks pretty reasonable to me, especially with a Feat for Master in Fortitude available around 10th or 12th.
Fighter with Wizard dedication and vice versa are exactly the reason why a Magus class is needed. Those classes fail at delivering the most basic aspect of the Magus which is Gish at level 1. They fail to meet the core aspect of blending Martial and Spellcasting prowess. They fail to meet the playability demand of a Gish useful at all levels.
Exactly that.
The magus needs to be
- 50/50 fighter and wizard, not 80/20 or 20/80
- its role is combat - either a melee fighter or maybe an archer variant
- its spells support its role, it doesn't need magic outside of that
The 1st edition magus delivers this all perfectly well from level 1 up - no system mastery or cunning build needed to make a gish.
Somehow a character being an even mix of 2 classes has gone from something with lots of ways to do (classes like magus, the hybrids, multi-classing 10 levels of each class, prestige classes) to a real challenge.
If 2nd edition can't find a way to support this then the problem is 2nd edition, not the magus.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That seems balanced for me too ( on a first glance ).
Just one quick question: the fortitude save you mentioned, since it comes at even levels, would be something given by a magus class feat?
Yeah, that was my thought. I tend to agree that them just getting it for free might strain the Proficiencies you can give a caster, but it's thematically appropriate and some Classes already have a Feat to boost one Save a category, so I thought having such a Feat available would be a nice mid-point.
|
|
That would be really interesting ( a tough choice indeed, since we are talking about a lvl 10/12 feat ).
I'd probably give it by lvl 10 instead of 12 ( since by lvl 12 you get the one from some dedications, like Barbarian's "Juggernaut Fortitude" ).
This could slightly lower the weight of the feat, and also providing a better save for a larger part of the adventure.
I'm mostly just spitballing, but yeah, I'd say such a Feat should probably be 10th level.
I would expect Magus Proficiencies to go something like this:
1st: Trained in Perception, Attacks, AC, Fort, Ref, and Spells. Expert in Will.
3rd: Expert in Fort.
5th: Expert in Perception, Expert in Attacks.
7th: Expert in Spells.
9th: Master in Will.
11th: Expert in Reflex.
13th: Master in Attacks, Expert in AC.
19th: Master in Spells, Master in AC.That matches Attack/AC Progressions for Barbarian, and Spell, Perception, and Save Progression of Warpriest (the example we have of a Master capped caster), except for not getting a second save to Master by default.
So...that looks pretty reasonable to me, especially with a Feat for Master in Fortitude available around 10th or 12th.
This seems perfectly reasonable to me. The lack of a second Master save is balanced by the Magus' greater attacking potential. At the same time, getting a second Master save is worth a feat, so giving the option is a good idea. This is especially true because, as HumbleGamer points out, some Dedications give it anyway.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just checked the warpriest, whose spell DC progression is Expert lvl 11 instead of lvl 7.
I think that the expert DC should be that one too.
My concern here is that to think that a magus could throw fireballs and lightnings having the same dc of a wizard, from lvl 1 to 14, would imo be not really balanced.
Yeah, that's probably fair enough. Staying one step behind Wizard Spell Proficiency is a pretty reasonable place for Magus to be.
That's make the progression as follows:
1st: Trained in Perception, Attacks, AC, Fort, Ref, and Spells. Expert in Will.
3rd: Expert in Fort.
5th: Expert in Perception, Expert in Attacks.
9th: Master in Will.
11th: Expert in Spells, Expert in Reflex.
13th: Master in Attacks, Expert in AC.
19th: Master in Spells, Master in AC.
Plus a 10th level Class Feat to get Master in Fortitude Saves.
For people concerned about proficiencies, you can't forget the matter of additional features. Again; school spells, drain bonded item, extra spell slots, 10th-level spells, bloodline spells, bloodline powers, etc. A Magus is not likely to get any of that without multiclass archetypes.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a 2e Magus had a much more limited selection of options when it comes to traditional metamagic and familiars. Never mind that its feat options will ideally be a fairly even split between martial abilities, spellcasting, and/or the blending of both.
Will a Magus be better than a Wizard in some areas? Yes, sure, absolutely. Same as a Druid, Cleric, and Sorcerer are better in some areas. But a Magus will (ideally) not be able to replace a Wizard just by way of having certain proficiencies that are outright better.
EDIT: Also, don't forget that Canny Acumen is a thing. There are other ways to get saves to master than by multiclassing.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I could actually see three spells per level total on Magus, though all Wizards have Class Features making them effectively have 4 and I'm positive Magus wouldn't.
As for Saves, I could see them having high Fort instead of Will, though it'd be a big change from literally every other caster. I'd definitely expect a Feat to help out their Will in that case. Or they could have both, of course.
But really, if we all generally agree that something like the above progression with maybe a few adjustments is around right, I'm not sure debating the details is super necessary. Paizo will decide those when they make the Class after all. I was just throwing a quick progression out there so people could take a look and see if they had fundamental objections.
The answer to that question seems to be no, which is great and means we're in general agreement, even if a few details are still up for debate.
Magus probably wont have 3-4 spells per level like Wizards that is for sure.
And 10th level spells seems really improbable.
I for one would be entirely and completely fine with Magus getting only the absolute baseline of spellcasting. It would be the same as Bard and Druid, both of which also have more options in terms of what they can do outside of their usual casting.
I say this because that seems to be the route Paizo is going. Literally every caster released in 2e so has had this progression, only getting additional spells based on their individual class features. So I don't think we'll get classes who cast even less spells; only ones who don't get extra spellcasting goodies on top.
Yeah, that was my thought. I tend to agree that them just getting it for free might strain the Proficiencies you can give a caster, but it's thematically appropriate and some Classes already have a Feat to boost one Save a category, so I thought having such a Feat available would be a nice mid-point.That seems balanced for me too ( on a first glance ).
Just one quick question: the fortitude save you mentioned, since it comes at even levels, would be something given by a magus class feat?
Wait they still have those class feats? Where? I thought they got removed after the play test.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wait they still have those class feats? Where? I thought they got removed after the play test.
Technically, I was misremembering, at the moment no Classes have such a Feat. Several Multiclass Archetypes, however, do. So the precedent remains for Class Feats being able to do that.
Magus probably wont have 3-4 spells per level like Wizards that is for sure.
And 10th level spells seems really improbable.
I for one would be entirely and completely fine with Magus getting only the absolute baseline of spellcasting. It would be the same as Bard and Druid, both of which also have more options in terms of what they can do outside of their usual casting.
I say this because that seems to be the route Paizo is going. Literally every caster released in 2e so has had this progression, only getting additional spells based on their individual class features. So I don't think we'll get classes who cast even less spells; only ones who don't get extra spellcasting goodies on top.
Playtest oracle had 2 slots (which everyone hated so they're probably going to tweak that)
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Playtest oracle had 2 slots (which everyone hated so they're probably going to tweak that)
Huh? No they didn't. I'm looking at the listing right now and they have the exact same spells per day progression as Druids or Clerics or Bards.
That does include 2 at their highest level spells on the level they get them, but it's three for all other spell levels at all times.
I think that if a magus has Expert attack rolls AND 3rd level Arcane spell slots at 5th level, that’s too much. I’d want to delay the casting progression or the attack proficiency.
People are talking about how then Magus won’t get a school, thesis, or a bonded item, to differentiate them from Wizards. But the Magus will need things to replace Spell Combat and Spellstrike, and those will likely be potent class features in their own right.
I also don’t see loss of 10th level spells as a sufficient differentiator, since those come up at 19th level, and many campaigns won’t make it there.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wait they still have those class feats? Where? I thought they got removed after the play test.Technically, I was misremembering, at the moment no Classes have such a Feat. Several Multiclass Archetypes, however, do. So the precedent remains for Class Feats being able to do that.
I see. I remember dev comments after the playtest that they removed them because they didn't want to force a choice between interesting things to do versus being effective, so I don't think they'd bring them back for the magus.
Well we've talked a lot about proficiencies and balance and all that jazz, so it's pretty clear that people want a 50/50 gish focusing their abilities on combat, who also feels like they can hit consistently.
So, what else do people want to see in a Magus? What kind of cool abilities and ideas?
I for one thought of an ability where after casting a spell, you can channel the last bits of energy through your weapon for a ranged spell attack doing the spell's damage type, but using the weapon's damage die.
Also, since people talked about stances that alter spells and make them work in tandem with martial prowess, I thought of something for that too. Maybe depending on the weapon you're using the shape of the spell is changed? A piercing weapon fires from the tip of the blade, thrust forward in a line. A slashing weapon sweeps out in the form of a cone. And a bludgeoning weapon comes down in the shape of an explosive burst.
These are just ideas, with no particular regard for how they'd be balanced properly. What about you guys?
Lots of focus abilities like ki powers, flavored as battle magic, or magical stances that can enchant their weapon. Spend an action, set your sword on fire, etc. Powerful stances could even have the concentrate tag. Or use a focus point to teleport, strike, teleport, or mimic spiritual weapon. I'd want less direct interaction with their spell list (i.e. few if any metamagic feats) so they don't step on the toes of other casters, but still lots of interesting magical effects that combine magic and martial power.
I'd also like to see pathways that let you focus more on striking, defensive battle magic, and then arcane archery. That way it can fill in for a few classic gish archetypes without having to branch out; Magus should be a basic package for quintessential gishing.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I still think the essential, fundamental, Focus Spell they should have should be something in a melee attack spell that deals elemental damage, and can thus be used with spellstrike for big damage once per fight, ala PF1 Magi with shocking grasp.
Other possibilities involve just about anything giving movement, attack, or defense options.
|
I just checked the warpriest, whose spell DC progression is Expert lvl 11 instead of lvl 7.
I think that the expert DC should be that one too.
My concern here is that to think that a magus could throw fireballs and lightnings having the same dc of a wizard, from lvl 1 to 14, would imo be not really balanced.
Yeah, that's probably fair enough. Staying one step behind Wizard Spell Proficiency is a pretty reasonable place for Magus to be.
That's make the progression as follows:
1st: Trained in Perception, Attacks, AC, Fort, Ref, and Spells. Expert in Will.
3rd: Expert in Fort.
5th: Expert in Perception, Expert in Attacks.
9th: Master in Will.
11th: Expert in Spells, Expert in Reflex.
13th: Master in Attacks, Expert in AC.
19th: Master in Spells, Master in AC.Plus a 10th level Class Feat to get Master in Fortitude Saves.
Think I had a pretty similar list
Initial Profs
- 8 HP/Level
- Trained Perception
- Trained Simple & Martial
- Expert Fort, Trained Ref, Expert Will
- Trained Light armour (class path for scaling medium & heavy)
- Trained arcane spell attacks & dcs
- 2 slots per level (1 of highest level on odd levels, 2 of highest level on even levels)
Level stuff
- 3rd: Nothing (Though you could put expert fort here and start them trained in fort)
- 5th: Expert Ref
- 7th: Expert weapons
- 9th: Expert casting
- 11th: Juggernaut (Master fort, fort evasion), Expert Perception
- 13th: Expert Armour
- 15th: Master weapons
- 17th: Resolve (Master will, will evasion), Master casting
- 19th: 10th level slot, (Could put master armour here but I don't think it's necessary)
For offensive spells I'd love to see something on the lines of a bonus to spell effect if you cast a long range spell at touch range or through spell combat or spellstrike being around a spell being more effective after connecting with a weapon.
'More effective' could mean bonus to save DC, attack roll, some degree of heightening, tagging a metamagic effect on - I'm not too bothered what.
The general principle is that the magus' spells will normally be behind the wizards in effect - fewer slots, different proficiency, whatever, but the magus needs to get up into melee and/or land blows with weapons as the path to close that gap.
Or you could do it the other way around to - +to hit a target with a weapon if you've just landed a spell on them.
Maybe its 'targets under the effect of one of your spells'
That way even the reduced effect from a successful (non-crit) save means you've still buffed your attack against them.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bladed Dash absolutely needs to make a return as a spell alongside Magus. Make it an Arcane/Occult spell, make it so you move up to your speed, and you make the melee attack using your spell attack proficiency.
Hell, make it a 1-to-3 action spell, letting you make a number of attacks equal to the number of actions spent. Heightened versions could increase the distance you travel and the number of attacks you can make per action spent. Could even do the whole thing where MAP doesn't apply until after the spell ends.
Fits perfectly in between the caster niche of "Efficient AoE for multiple enemies" and not only hitting but also getting right into melee range.
I really just want the Magus to be an archetype with the prereq that you have spell slot spell casting. I think it could give you martial weapon proficiency if you didn't have it and it could give feats to buff up your weapon proficiency and your spell casting proficiency so that you can work up either path. Other feats I would want to see would be to better apply your spell strikes and not lose them on a miss or critical miss.
Using this method you either start as a full caster and gain some weapon proficiency or you multiclass into a caster and gain some spell casting proficiency.
Gaining armor proficiency is debatable because you really only gain that through multiclass feats or general feats but one of the new archetypes is supposed to get around that so maybe this archetype could too.
|
|
Bladed Dash absolutely needs to make a return as a spell alongside Magus. Make it an Arcane/Occult spell, make it so you move up to your speed, and you make the melee attack using your spell attack proficiency.
Hell, make it a 1-to-3 action spell, letting you make a number of attacks equal to the number of actions spent. Heightened versions could increase the distance you travel and the number of attacks you can make per action spent. Could even do the whole thing where MAP doesn't apply until after the spell ends.
Fits perfectly in between the caster niche of "Efficient AoE for multiple enemies" and not only hitting but also getting right into melee range.
For all that people talk about shocking grasp and magi, my own magus' signature spell has been bladed dash for almost ten levels now.
Bladed Dash seems like a good candidate for a Focus Spell.
I suggest it as an actual- and arcane/occult- spell on account of the fact that in 1st edition, it was something that Magus, Bard, and Skald get. I can see how it would work as an occult spell and I really don't think it would do much damage as a regular spell. Especially if it used spell attack modifier, which for just about every multiclass martial/caster type is going to be worse than their normal modifiers.
I don't know if any arcane or occult tradition class would want to use it, though, barring a gish. But then you'd have a Magus, so why?
Bladed dash is a perfect candidate for a focus spell.