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I had a feeling that we'd still get the Magus as a class when it didn't appear as an archetype in the APG. I'm excited as my two favorite classes from PF1e are coming out. I can't wait to playtest this!
I did wonder, since "Eldritch Knight" would be an obvious candidate for conversion if they didn't plan to tackle the Magus.
And a conversion of the Eldritch Knight into PF2, much as they converted "Arcane Archer" into "Eldritch Archer" (even referencing to the Elven origins of Arcane Archer in the write up) would probably have looked a lot like an eventual Magus multiclass archetype.
I'm actually a little surprised someone would try to claim that the Magus and Eldritch Knight have little thematic and mechanical overlap.
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The Magus basically came to be in PF1 because the Eldritch Knight took a bunch of levels to work, and even more levels to be effective without considerable system mastery.
The Magus was your "it just works" gish from level 1.
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They have basic thematic overlap (both are arcane gishes), but no deep or mechanical overlap.
The Magus class was quite literally and intentionally built so as to fuse the Wizard, Fighter, and Eldritch Knight classes into something that works from 1st level. Spell combat and spell strike were new, but Spell Recall, Arcane Pool, the ability to wear armor, access to fighter feats, and weapon proficiencies all came from the parent classes. Updated so as to work well together, but ultimately all have pretty obvious roots. Even the HD is an average between the Fighter and Wizard.
Why else did you think the Eldritch Knight and the Magus class had the same Iconic?
I see the Eldritch Trickster racket as potentially interesting way to make the Magus. Having multiclass feats be built into a class would be interesting for the class and thematically appropriate. Not to mention opening a path for good battle witches.
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Why else did you think the Eldritch Knight and the Magus class had the same Iconic?
Did someone [indirectly] mention ?!
I stan Seltyiel!!
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Love for Seltyiel is always welcome on any thread.
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All this talk of Master/Master for magus makes me really sad for all the martial bard fans out there.
It is a bit of a shame, but they've got Warrior Muse now. And they have their composition cantrips as well, making them some of the absolute best buffers and utilitarians in the game. If they could go so far as getting Master/Master proficiency on top of that, they'd be way too strong. And that's not getting into what their other muses have to offer.
As you guys can imagine, I am absolute ecstatic to see that Magus is coming back as its own standalone class. The sheer VALIDATION- ahem- I feel is almost palpable. I really hope this thread serves to give them at least some amount of feedback to make use of when it comes to working on the Magus.
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Someone may have already said something similar, but at over 250 posts it’s hard to tell. What I want to see from a Magus:
Class Feature-Spellstrike (Free Action)
Trigger-you cast a spell that is delivered by melee spell strike or has a target of self.
Effect-Make a melee Strike against an enemy in melee range. You may deal damage as normally, and deliver the spell as part of the Strike, dealing it’s effects as normal.
Later level, either has a feat or another class feature:
Ranged Spellstrike (3 actions)
Cast a 1 or 2 action spell that requires either a melee or ranged spell attack. Make a melee Strike and deliver the spell to an in-range enemy as part of that Strike. If the spell requires a save as part of its effect, the enemy takes a -1 circumstance penalty to their save (-2 on a crit).
And as a final upgrade:
Master Spellstrike (3 actions)
You may cast any 1 or 2 action spell and make a melee Strike to deliver it to an enemy in melee range. The enemy takes a -2 circumstance penalty to any related save. On a critical hit from the Strike, worsen the result by one step, after all other bonuses/penalties have been applied. If the spell has an Area of Effect that you are within, you take damage as though you had a Success on the Saving Throw and ignore all other penalties or status effects.
If you are a master in both your spell casting tradition and in your weapon proficiency, increase the penalty to -4.
As a final Feat I’d like to see,
Spell Absorption (Reaction)
Trigger: You take damage from a spell you cast with Spellstrike.
Effect-Make a Saving Throw with the appropriate Save listed by the spell.
Crit Success-You take no damage and you regain a spell slot no greater than 2 levels lower than the cast spell.
Success-Take damage as normal, you regain a spell slot no greater than 2 levels lower than the spell cast.
Crit Failure-You take damage from the spell as though you failed the saving throw against it. You still ignore all other effects from the spell as normal.
An actual half caster that gets improvements to action economy in using spells and melee strikes together.
There's a lot of talk about proficiencies in this thread, and some talk of action economy, but one ability I really think should be core to the magus is defensive casting. A magus that can't stand toe to toe with an enemy and cast spells without getting hit with reactions is a bad magus.
I could perhaps see a core ability to cast touch spells without triggering reactions, and a feat that let you cast other spells as well. Or possibly have the core allowing touch spells and point-blank AOEs (lines, cones, emanations) and a feat expanding that to ranged spells.
Yes, attacks of opportunity and their ilk is much less common in PF2, but magi should be allowed to use magic in melee even against such opponents.
Agreed. The biggest problem with a magus that I can see here is that if a spellstrike ends up costing at least two actions, you can't utilize mobility defensively very well. So you definitely would need a number of reasonable defensive spellcasting, I think.
In terms of proficiencies, I'd love to see:
Up to master in martial weapons
Up to master in spellcasting tradition
Up to expert in light and medium armors?
Make them an offensively powerful class but a bit easy to burn down if you don't get some distance or have magical defenses raised. If weapon attacks are less than master-capped, this class will be painful to play. And if spellcasting is less than master-capped, that makes their casting weaker than a MC, which is weird to me.
So that's my hope. Melee glass cannon but with the abilities to use clever magics to keep themselves alive?
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All this talk of Master/Master for magus makes me really sad for all the martial bard fans out there.
While I sort of agree, I think Warpriest and Warrior Muse show why master/master is going to be so important for a dedicated gish.
I also want to see stuff like this... (Also for bard and warpriest)
Teleport slash. Level 3 focus spell.
2 actions.
Teleport up to half your speed and make a Strike. The surprise of your movement makes the enemy flat footed agaisnt the attack.
You can spend a third action to teleport back to your original location after the attack.
Bladed Dash, focus spell 1
2 actions, must be wielding an agile weapon
With a magical burst of speed you run past an opponent and slash them. Move up to your speed and make a strike at any time during the movement with your agile weapon. The movement does not provoke reaction.
Heightened +2, you gain a +10 status bonus to speed for the movement, and you an make one additional strike. The strikes must be made against different targets. Each Strike counts toward your penalty, but only after you make all the attacks.
Bladed Dash Flurry. Magus (also Bard) feat 6.
If you are wielding 2 weapons when you do cast bladed dash, You can spend an extra action when you cast it to double the number of stikes you make. Each Strike must still be made against a different, and you alternate which weapon you strike with.
Given that Magi are- supposedly- going to have less spells per day than other casters, I can't help but wonder/hope if Paizo is going to also bring back Spell Recall. That was, as far as I know, very much unique to the Magus in 1e.
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One thing I'm hoping for is ditching the requirement for single one handed weapons. I want two-hander Magi.
Given that Magi are- supposedly- going to have less spells per day than other casters, I can't help but wonder/hope if Paizo is going to also bring back Spell Recall. That was, as far as I know, very much unique to the Magus in 1e.
Isn't that basically wizard's Drain Bonded Item?
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Given that Magi are- supposedly- going to have less spells per day than other casters, I can't help but wonder/hope if Paizo is going to also bring back Spell Recall. That was, as far as I know, very much unique to the Magus in 1e.Isn't that basically wizard's Drain Bonded Item?
Kinda, but Magi used their Knowledge Pool and expended points from said resource in order to restore their spell slots. It wasn't a once a day thing like it is with the Wizard.
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Mostly I want to see different themed Magic. In particular I want:
-A classic blast and slash gish
-A more utilitarian 3.5 Hexblade built around debuffing and battle control.
-A heavy knight that specializes in 2 handed weapons and armor at the expense of mobility.
-A particularly agile build that's solely focused around self buffing.Or something like that. Basically I want the Magus Analogue for order/racket/what have you to have very radical implications for what you want to focus on in terms of build.
Keep in mind that Magi are going to be (at least) casting from the arcane tradition. They're going to have the entire arcane spell list available to them. So subclasses that specialize/focus on one particular kind of casting is going to be a bit difficult.
Magi that use different fighting styles in tandem with their magic though? That'll probably be easier. But in all honesty I could see them going without subclasses at all.
For me, Magus will have something similar to twin takedown or flurry of blows, but with a spell and a strike. Also similar to how divine smite works.
Something like:
Spell Strike (2 actions)
Requirements: Finesse or agile weapon in one hand, nothing in the other one.
You can Cast a Spell that has a casting time of no more than 2 actions, then Make a Strike. If the Spell has an attack roll, you can chose to channel it through your weapon instead and uses the strike's attack roll.
It will probably have expert proficiency in finessable weapons and master proficiency in casting.
The requirement to have a empty hand plus the expert proficiency seems a good trade-off to gain an action per round.
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Yeah, if Magus is restricted in what weapons it can use, that will kill most of my interest in the class. Access to two handed weapons is ideal for me.
They just need to be better than warpriest. Especially once proficiency starts lagging behind.
Yeah, if Magus is restricted in what weapons it can use, that will kill most of my interest in the class. Access to two handed weapons is ideal for me.
As a default? The original Magus never really got this outside of the quarterstaff (which had it's own archetype).
I could definitely see them being limited from using TH weapons in that a lot of Feats don't necessarily work with them, but the biggest restriction was already lifted (casting Somatic no longer requires a hand free).
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Yeah, if Magus is restricted in what weapons it can use, that will kill most of my interest in the class. Access to two handed weapons is ideal for me.As a default? The original Magus never really got this outside of the quarterstaff (which had it's own archetype).
I could definitely see them being limited from using TH weapons in that a lot of Feats don't necessarily work with them, but the biggest restriction was already lifted (casting Somatic no longer requires a hand free).
Yeah, as the default. I can't really see any good reason, narratively or balance wise, for Magus to not be able to use every martial melee weapon. I could see them not getting a ton of feat support for two handed, but honestly only a couple classes inherently get good support for two handers so I'm used to that.
Though, now that you mention staves, I love the idea of a Magus with staff acrobat.
Well, the idea of the magus in PF1 was to cast a spell with one hand and strike with his other hand. It even worked akin to two-weapon fighting, except your "weapon" was a spell.
So I can see feats or "rackets" giving them two-handed weapon, but the balance was achieved by restricting the size of the weapon they could use, so my money would go on them being one-handed by default.
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Also Expert/Master would be really bad.
Well, spell striking as I wrote it would prevent them from getting MAP as well as gain an action, which makes them insanely powerful.
Since cantrips scale in 2e, a magus casting chilling touch through his weapon would get Weapon damage + 1d4 damage per two levels + casting modifier. This is way more than what the rogue gets - and it can be done all day long. And if they use a spell slot, for shocking grasp since it was their signature move, damage goes from incredible to insane.
A swashbuckler using a finisher can deal Weap damage + 4d6 at level 9, provided he has panache. A magus using spell strike with a freaking cantrip can deal weap damage +5d4+mod.
And that's without taking into account a weap damage + 6d12 shocking grasp.
So, yeah, even if spell slots were less than other casting classes, it would be enough to make it a beast. If it were to get master proficiency, it would be way over the top.
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Since Magus has been confirmed to playtest as a class, I'd say...
Expert/Master proficiency for Weapons/Spells to match with classes like Bard/Warpriest. If they end up as Master/Master, I and many at my table will likely never play a pure martial class again (kinda like PF1, which I'd rather avoid this early in PF2).
Arcane tradition only. While I liked the idea of using a Magus archetype to open up the gish roll/spellstrike to more traditions, Magus as a class doesn't have the thematic grounding to justify select-a-tradition like the Sorcerer & Witch do. In an odd way, I could see the Magus class re-flavored slightly to fill the arcane spontaneous niche - sort of like a more martial-focused arcane bard.
Some sort of viable spellstrike mechanic from an early level. This was the most iconic and thematic ability of the Magus, and I'd have trouble considering the class complete without it.
What I do not want to see is having a class pool other than the focus pool or using limited-use abilities or weaker defense as a way to justify the Magus class overshadowing all the martial classes at their supposed specialization. Magus has a cool theme, but I greatly worry that many will not be satisfied unless they have the same overpowering presence that helped make them problematic in PF1.
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More I think about it the more I realize that if it caps at expert martial and master spells it just won't be worth it to ever play one from a mechanical perspective
Burn spells to buff yourself you say? Why? Better off buffing the fighter.
If anything you can do can be done better by supporting the actual front line martial, your just a bad support because bard can do that better.
Spell strike? Cool, but if you're not up to snuff on your to hit, go home.
Straight up, if the argument is you can buff your to hit with spells and abilities, Wich every character can do, and receive, you are not moving the needle.
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Expert/Master proficiency for Weapons/Spells to match with classes like Bard/Warpriest. If they end up as Master/Master, I and many at my table will likely never play a pure martial class again (kinda like PF1, which I'd rather avoid this early in PF2).
At expert/master, the class features will need to be extremely compelling for me to even bother reading the class feats, because I would see no reason to not go Fighter/Wizard and get better combat feats, HP, saves, and armor/weapon proficiencies.
But a Magus first and formost must be able to hit. If we are talking about Kensai, I am even willing to drop spells a bit more to get a higher crit chance. As that was very much the thematic space for them: Weak armor and spells for huge potential damage from spell crits.Nothing in 2E will hit or critically hit like 1E, or outside a narrow range of performance. That is the most basic assumption the math is built off.
Master wouldn't do it, heck, legendary proficiencies would not consistently allow a Magus to consistently crit on a 15 as per 1E.
If your goal is to 'feel' like 1E, you are setting yourself up for disappointment and putting nigh impossible standards in the class.
It might have significant self-buffing to increase its chances to hit (which gets around the whole 'it is better to buff martials thing). It might mess significantly with the action economy. It might even get a radiant blade spirit effect for a free keen rune at an early level, or something like fighter's flexibility feature.
But it probably won't obsolete master-martials, and it definitely won't have anything close to the high hit and crit chances of 1E. The final result is bound to match 2E math for better or worse.
If the self buffs don't stack with other buffs the game offers, it won't move the needle, and won't make Magus remotely attractive.
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I'm ok with expert/master as long as either the spell strike gets a +2 bump on the attack roll or the spell isn't used if the spell strike misses. Those are the two workarounds that I'd find sufficient.
So a one action focus spell that gave quickened (Strike/Stride), +3 status to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, +4 status to damage, +2 status to AC, gain fly 40 feet, roll twice and take better result in the next attack buff wouldn't move the needle or make Magus remotely attractive?
After all said buff wouldn't stack above what is currently available. Magus would still 'top out' at the same place.
If said buff isn't enough, nothing will be. Again, that is a nigh impossible standard to meet. Messing with the action economy alone is enough to change the current equation with buffs IMHO.
is it necessary to create such hostility with that obvious poke with the focus spell example?
easy solution, they get their own unlisted buff of +2 when using whatever spellstrike attack they get.
easy, isntead of being snide
I think that +2 unlisted buff would be the right call for everything except cantrip spell strikes. Maybe give magus class feats that give cantrip like spell strikes that scale less than actual cantrip damage + strike
I think that +2 unlisted buff would be the right call for everything except cantrip spell strikes. Maybe give magus class feats that give cantrip like spell strikes that scale less than actual cantrip damage + strike
i dont see the math that backs this up as an issue. cantrips dont do much damage, they are basically daggers outside of TK wich is a shortsword.
nothing wrong with them having a good 2 action spell strike that requires melee range. but i could see them cutting cantrips damage in half when used in that way simply because of how i see them running the game currently.
I think that +2 unlisted buff would be the right call for everything except cantrip spell strikes. Maybe give magus class feats that give cantrip like spell strikes that scale less than actual cantrip damage + strikei dont see the math that backs this up as an issue. cantrips dont do much damage, they are basically daggers outside of TK wich is a shortsword.
nothing wrong with them having a good 2 action spell strike that requires melee range. but i could see them cutting cantrips damage in half when used in that way simply because of how i see them running the game currently.
What's an endgame dagger like? 4d4 plus like 3d6 of different property runes?
I guess I cantrip is pretty close to that with 9d4 or 10d4 max.
I just think adding that on MAP free would be a pretty no brainier choice for a lot of martials (who aren't fighter) compared to that more iffy second strike