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The sjw attitude from paizo is really annoying. They should keep their views for them self.
It's two paragraphs about inclusivity in a 640 page book...
Chief Technical Officer
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Whatever process or company they got to for the 2e printing seems to be different (and IMO worse) than their previous printers.
All of our hardcovers (and the majority of our softcovers) have been manufactured by the same printer for the last ten years. It's an unfortunate fact—but a fact nonetheless—that in a run of many thousands of books, some of them are going to have problems. If you have one of those problem children, please let our customer service department know, and we'll get you fixed up.
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My current feelings about Age of Ashes are on the hot side of lukewarm - it hasn't completely knocked me out of the park, but it's been fun and my players have definitely enjoyed it. Book 6 hype is definitely the high point, for reasons obvious to anyone who has spoiled themselves on that book. Hopefully it lives up to the hype.
I also think it's the AP it needed to be in order to introduce 2e, and I definitely agree that one of the next couple APs needs to be amazing.
That said, the rerelease of Kingmaker could be huge in that area - it is one of the most beloved APs. I'm actually planning to run it a second time, which is something I never thought I would do.
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The sjw attitude from paizo is really annoying. They should keep their views for them self.
A lot of people seem to cry "SJW" when they see a changing social climate. If you think that having the inclusion of boundaries or LGBTQ NPCs somehow makes the game worse, I'm not sure what to tell you. This is a game made in 2019 with our social and cultural mores baked into it. It's reflective of (admittedly) American shifts in society that are accepted and a part of normal life.
My anecdotal data is strange about 2e's take up. I live in Japan and often use board games and role-playing games as a way to introduce English to students. I run two 2e groups and have a small list of people ready to join into new games after the holidays. One of my Japanese friends is an OSR player who paged through the Playtest Rulebook and was really excited. He's been waiting for the Japanese release from Arclight Games. Not sure if that's happened yet or if he's running any games, but he has excitedly talked about goblin barbarians!
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I like Paizo's SJW-ness and always have - it's a big part of what keeps me a loyal customer. I hope they keep that front and center going forward. (I also like Wizards of the Coast's recent moves in that direction with 5E).
People's creative work should reflect their beliefs. You like it or you don't (and it should influence your purchases accordingly) but on the rare occasion it happens, creative work without politics is dull an lifeless, imo.
I suspect all the successful art that people claim is politics-free is probably just politics-they-agree-with or politics-of-the-status-quo.
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I suspect all the successful art that people claim is politics-free is probably just politics-they-agree-with or politics-of-the-status-quo.
Definitely true. People don't get upset if they don't feel pushed.
All my experienced players were 5e folks, not PF1. They're all a little unsold on the whole thing, but I think part of that is that they're all a bit too timid to try anything in the new system. Also might be a slight reflection on the roughness of my awkward GM style. :)
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I have a few friends who got pretty riled up about the PC stuff, not because it was included in a paragraph in the rules so much, but because they believed that it was adversely affecting the stories Paizo was telling through their adventure paths.
Second Edition as a whole though is being pretty well received in the circles I frequent, which is impressive as nearly everyone here started with a "never gonna'" switch attitude.
The sjw attitude from paizo is really annoying. They should keep their views for them self.
My gaming group likes pf2e really a lot. One huge factor is,that we are bored by 5e. So, 2e had a good timing for us.
I tell you what. Why don't you demonstrate how to keep one's views to themselves then we will think about following your example.
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Our group hated the playtest - the final product is well received though - other than one shots we haven't converted yet - but that's due to being neck deep in one AP and wanting to play Return - so it may be a year or two before we start a proper PF2 AP.
Return .... might just be the best AP that Paizo put out for 1e.
Regarding converting mid-campaigns: I'm currently running three Pathfinder 1E campaigns, or, to be exact, two and one suspended but due to resume very soon. All of these campaigns were started before the release of 2E.
The suspended one is the oldest, it's Curse of the Crimson Throne, and I'm lobbying for converting this campaign to 2E when we resume early next year. We are in the midst of part 4, and except for the magus, PC conversion should be rather easy. Two of the players have already played the playtest and a few sessions of 2E, the other two don't know the game yet, though. Might work to covert.
My War for the Crown campaign (on book 3 currently) might also be convertable, although another magus and an arcanist might not be so easy. However, I think these players would probably rather continue 1E, not because of any adversity against 2E, but simply because they don't know 2E yet (one player might have read the book) and might see a conversion as too much work and as unnecessary, and I can't fault them for that. So probably no on conversion.
Finally, I've started a Return of the Runelords campaign explicitly as some kind of last hurrah for 1E for the players that have played all the APs that lead to this one. So we have some rather exotic PCs for which there are no 2E substitutes, and I also think that this exact AP is better served by classic Pathfinder. So no on conversion.
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For my groups, it is not a matter of First Edition vs. Second Edition. There are a massive number of systems that compete for our time. I'm currently involved with 1 P2e campaign, and I'm not personally aware of any P1e campaigns going on.
I'm all for Paizo's few paragraphs on making tables welcoming places of fun. It is a good trade-off if people who enjoy offending are replaced with people who were feeling marginalized. Everyone wins, except for people who make the game less pleasant.
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My group moved to 2nd Edition and we are not going back!
We are loving the action systems, the new dynamics in the fights, the more simple mechanics, still it has variety in each class.
I as a GM am loving the new "simple" things like reduzing the name on bonus, some durations and so on.
Don't take me wrong, i love numbers, i work with numbers at worl, but come on!
Pf1 was becoming a game of +1 and +1 and +1 and +1 and oh also another +1 and yet another one +1 and that spell also gives me +1...
My group is now doing Age of Ashes, they are going for the final chapter on the first game, and everyone is having fun (yes, even the casters...).
Fully agreed, Sapient.
I live in a small town so I'm not really aware of any other groups in my area or what the trends are here, but personally I'm running both a PF1e game and a PF2e game. My friend who also GMs is running a PF1e game but plans to run Return of the Runelords as a PF2e conversion.
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I'm all for Paizo's few paragraphs on making tables welcoming places of fun. It is a good trade-off if people who enjoy offending are replaced with people who were feeling marginalized. Everyone wins, except for people who make the game less pleasant.
It isn't just about general inclusiveness or gender/sexuality politics like some are presenting either. It is about teaching GM's conflict avoidance skills that are commonly lacked or glossed over, things that are incredibly important for public play settings.
The number of times people make "rpg nightmare" posts asking for advice or just ranting is testament as to why forging strong social contracts is important.
In my case dictating what will be expected at my table, what won't be tolerated and laying down the framework for open communication has been hugely useful. Of course I learnt all of this well before PF2e was a thing, but if PF2e is someone's first RPG then it is good to have more tools in the social toolbox.
Locally 2e is doing very well (and so is 1e and SFS), but I'm in a large/active lodge that can support three systems, often feels more limited by venue space or GMs than player interest.
I've been at a lot of conventions since the launch -- GenCon, DragonCon, BeanCon, TotalCon Summer Sizzler, SkalCon, Carnage, and Pax Unplugged. As a whole I've felt all (aside from the two 1-day small events), have also had relative success in supporting all three systems. And I think right now that's the important bit -- a lot of people who started off antagonist to 2e calmed down a lot when they saw 1e was still being offered. Often they still prefer 1e, but the emotional reaction was highly tempered.
Both locally and at the Cons, its been feeling about like 2:2:1::2e:sfs:1e, so while there has been less 1e, its a large enough audience to be self-sustaining. A few cons felt a bit closer to thirds.
At the recent PAX I heard a lot of people saying that after trying 2e, they want to switch to it from 5e.
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For my groups, it is not a matter of First Edition vs. Second Edition. There are a massive number of systems that compete for our time. I'm currently involved with 1 P2e campaign, and I'm not personally aware of any P1e campaigns going on.
I'm all for Paizo's few paragraphs on making tables welcoming places of fun. It is a good trade-off if people who enjoy offending are replaced with people who were feeling marginalized. Everyone wins, except for people who make the game less pleasant.
What if the people who are feeling offended and marginalized are due to all the changes from PF1e? Or, more precisely, not all the changes, but rather "so many changes?" If it was just a matter of teaching the 3 action economy and most of the rest of the game were similar to 1e, they might have gone for it, and conversions would be easier. But as it is, it's more a case of "Forget almost everything you know because it will just confuse you. Create new characters in a new game setting that shares some names as the last one, but can behave very differently". I almost hope that someone creates a Pathfinder 1.5 along those line so Paizo can see that there is still a love for what they created and they don't need to alienate their current players to capture new ones instead. That was a lesson that WotC had to learn with 4th edition, and they created 5th ed which is much closer to 3.5 and classic D&D than 4e was.
Let me describe my gaming group the way Zaister did. We are all longtime RPG gamers playing Giantslayer and we have currently just finished up book 4 and are starting on book 5. Some of the characters could probably be converted to 2e if we wanted to, but one of them is a Zen Monk archer. There is currently no equivalent for him. I play a Warpriest, and while there is a version of the class in 2e, it has lost so much it is not really the same as 1e. No more Blessings or Fervor. No more Dwarven Longhammer, my main weapon. No more Phalanx Fighting which I use to help protect the test of my party.
The players are all more mature, typically in our 40's, and have no desire to learn a complex new system and try to master it, so we are sticking with 1e for now, and maybe forever, even though I and most of the rest of the group bought the 2e core books. I also bought the first 4 parts of Age of Ashes, but they have no interest in it so I doubt I'll buy the rest of the campaign.
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What if the people who are feeling offended and marginalized are due to all the changes from PF1e? Or, more precisely, not all the changes,
I'm not sure it's the best look to compare "not liking a new game" to "civil liberties routinely stripped away." You can always NOT play a game, but you can't change your ethnicity, sexuality, or disability.
I'd heard this as well, but I'm not a module player, so I wasn't sure if that was true or made sense. I know they changed the names of some demons or minor deities or something, but aside from that I haven't seen anything. Was there a huge psychological-horror element that got scrubbed or something?Nope. Inclusiveness has always been a thing, too, many very well received APs going back to the beginning have had gay, trans, and non-binary characters, as well as the usual warnings about understanding your table and not pushing player boundaries (see WotR, with some potentially disturbing scenes taking place in the Abyss). None of this is new territory.
I wasn't really asking about inclusiveness,"PC stuff" usually refers to unabashed presentism and ethnocentrism in fiction.
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We are playing PF2 Iron Gods, converting on the fly, really easy, a lot of fun, the system is really solid, so it is hard to unbalance even with made-up stuff (Guns and Tec) - I'm not even planning the Experience, and is turning out well.
We are playing Reign of Winter PF1 and is fun as well, the new players find PF2 marginally easier to play than PF1... I think PF2 has the legs for being a huge success. Time will tell.
The PC culture stuff I find ridiculous, Paizo has been like this always and is not a big deal if they include some paragraphs to help more people have fun. They make such fuss about it, meanwhile, in countries other than the US, nobody cares.
What do people know about the success / popularity of 2E so far?
Honestly I'd say it's too early to really tell. There's a lot of people that are trying it out and may decide it's not for them. OTOH, there's a lot of people that are waiting until the product line is more fleshed out.
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I'm all for Paizo's few paragraphs on making tables welcoming places of fun. It is a good trade-off if people who enjoy offending are replaced with people who were feeling marginalized. Everyone wins, except for people who make the game less pleasant.What if the people who are feeling offended and marginalized are due to all the changes from PF1e?
Paizo is saying that different people have different levels of comfort and different boundaries, and it is the job of the GM and the players that everyone feel welcome. Paizo are saying that you should not be behaving in such a way that you drive away people based on their gender, race, sexual orientation, or other identities.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Paizo is talking about hostile, toxic tables where people who want to play P2E can't have fun because of the jerks sitting there.
You seem to be saying that the real victims are those who want to play a different game, but have chosen not to for no particular reason. If I may, I'll offer some advice. If you want to play first edition, play first edition. Don't feel "offended and marginalized" because there also exists a game you don't want to play. Life is too short for that.
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If I may, I'll offer some advice. If you want to play first edition, play first edition.
Additional advice: don't be a jerk sitting at those tables either.
ý
What the... how?
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There's only one metric for second edition that counts: is it doing well enough for Paizo to stay afloat and put out more product? All signs point to yes.
I'm trying hard to pronounce the ý now. I can handle ą,ę,ó,ź,ż,ń, but this one eludes me.
It's pronunciation varies depending on the language it is used in. It's not used in english - if you revert to latin as the base it just reads as a normal y. Otherwise it would have to be contextualized by the language where it was found to determine the right sound it makes.
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Honestly, I've moved country a while ago and tried to find Pathfinder tables.
No success for a year despite being located in one of the largest cities in the country, which led me to (eyeroll here) fifth edition. I even GM'd, because ForeverGM. No, I could not find players to GM Pathfinder (I mean I ran Reign of Winter in 5e so I guess I sort of did).
Now, after 2e's release, I have a list of aspiring players and three groups, one of which I play in.
I'd say whether or not it's doing well, it does well enough for me.
I'm trying hard to pronounce the ý now. I can handle ą,ę,ó,ź,ż,ń, but this one eludes me.Its pronunciation
ftfý <3
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I for one really love this edition because now when I say "I charge at the enemy" people don't automatically think I'm taking the Charge action.
"You can't actually charge in this situation."
"No, I simply move and attack. I was just being descriptive."
But what if you say "I suddenly charge at the enemy!"? :PAt least you no longer need a chartered surveyor to tell you if you have proper lines and all that other stuff that needed to be Just Right in PF1.
Can I just sidetrack a moment to say that I love this? I have a player who took Sudden Charge, and it was very liberating for her to realize that if you are planning to move up and attack anyway, there's almost never any reason not to use it.
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Wow, what was taking so long?
My experience has been that combat is faster across the board in 2e, and that's with several brand new players...
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Wow, what was taking so long?
My experience has been that combat is faster across the board in 2e, and that's with several brand new players...
I can imagine a lot of rules referencing. I've found combat to be faster, and easier to understand, except...
We all have experience with P1E, and that has occasionally caused confusion. Our cleric might suddenly wonder if he can't hold on to his touch spell, and discharge it when he punches. The books and PDFs get opened and we try to find the relevant text. This can sometimes lead us down other rabbit holes, as we wonder if we are making other incorrect assumptions based on previous experience. We assume that touch attack spells that miss burn that spell slot, but is that justified by the text (Spoiler: Yes)? That can take time.
I think new players have an advantage in that they don't have to worry they are unknowingly holding on to outdated rules.