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-Medicine and crafting are important skills.

-get a 18 in your main Stat.

-when you go for multiclassing you are very limited on class feats. So, plan ahead.

-get your ac as high as possible

-dmg output is obviously great but not as important as in dnd 5e or pf1

What class do you want to play?


Small question:

Does the crit specialization effect (2 dmg per weapon dmg die) gets doubled on a crit?

I would assume no because it's an additional effect but it is weapon dmg and not stated anywhere.


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Animal Barbar with monk dedication and toughness.


Can you cast spells in mountain stance?


Druide with animal for the nature stuff.

Fighter or ranger dual wielder with picks and Rouge dedication.

Fighter 2 handweapon with knockdown and intimidation.

Cleric more heal, utility and buffs.


The Hit chance is without the crit chance.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
Puksone wrote:
Well there are some attack routines like Double Slice, Exacting Strike, and Two-Weapon Flurry (granted by Desperate Finisher) +sneak attack +rage. It does obviously more damage then 3 attacks from a normal fighter.

Lets see, how would a maximum DPR build that could do that go?

Human ancestry
Human 1 Exacting Strike
Fighter 1 Double Slice
Fighter 2 Rogue Dedication
Fighter 4 Rogue: Sneak Attacker
Fighter 6 Advanced Weapon Training swords (to get Sawtooth saber)
Fighter 8 (optional)
Fighter Combat Flexibility: (optional)
Ancestry feat 9 Multitalented: Barbarian
Fighter 10 Barbarian: Instinct Ability
Fighter 12 Agile Grace
Fighter 14 Two-weapon Flurry
Fighter 15 Combat Flexibility:Desperate Finisher

That is at a minimum level 15 looks like to me. It also really, really focused on damage. Not so much on mobility, ranged or other fancy maneuvers.

Stats would probably something like:
1st Str 18/Dex 12/Con 16/Int 10/Wis 12/Cha 10
15th Str 21/Dex 18/Con 20/Int 10/Wis 18/Cha 10
Fort: +28/Ref: +27/Will: +25

+2 Greater Striking Sawtooth Saber with Flaming and Shock Runes
Attack Sawtooth Sabers: +15+8+5+2=+30, 2d6+1d6F+1d6E+5 Str+8 G spec+2 Dragon Instinct + (2 if 2nd attack) + (1d6 if flat footed)

Or ignoring resistances, 4d6+15 (29)
Flat footed, 5d6+15 (32.5)
2nd attack or later add +2

Lets compare this against level 17 solo boss fights (i.e. level+2 chart) just to get a feel for how easy this is to pull off.

Options on Archive of Nethys list:
Ancient Copper Dragon
Ancient Green Dragon
Banshee
Ice Linnorm
Keketar
Marilith (Pride Demon)
Wendigo

Copper and Green dragons have no particular resistances, although against Green you'll want blind fight. Copper can be nasty with the slow, preventing the combo about half the time. Twisting tail can force the fighter to use 2 move actions to engage in melee, also preventing the combo. There's also the fact that these dragons fly extremely fast. If they don't want to engage in melee, it may be...

Good analysis thanks.

In my post I just wanted to give an example that a fighter most likely doesn't use normal attacks and has some dedications.


Michael Alves wrote:
Mellored wrote:
puksone wrote:
I doubt that a fighter 15 uses two normal attacks....

true, but the barb would not either.

I can't do every combo of feats and items.

But I am hardly the owner if math. You can do whatever one you want.

The thing is, most of the high-level strikes are still not that far from a blank one.

People keep thinking that fighters at level 15 will have some incredible DPR increasing attack, when in fact they don't.

Most feats are situational and not simple DPR gains, and that is what people are not seen.

The biggest dpr gains I can see are from things like Certain Strike, which does some damage on a miss. Whirlwind, that is an AOE, Agile Grace + Two-Weapon Flurry, and etc...

And they don't stack, as they are mostly actions.

Well there are some attack routines like Double Slice, Exacting Strike, and Two-Weapon Flurry (granted by Desperate Finisher) +sneak attack +rage. It does obviously more damage then 3 attacks from a normal fighter.


I doubt that a fighter 15 uses two normal attacks....


Some people mentioned items that boost the caster dmg. What items are available? Haven't looked to much into the caster items and wanted to do some dpr analysis.


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Michael Alves wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
he compare 2-action spell with a barbarian doing 1 actions
You do know Swipe is a two action ability, right?

I LOL'ed in real life. xD

He probably don't know Mellored.

Mellored has plenty of credit in my book, and I would be very careful to disagree with him because he usually knows what he is talking about.

Alaryth wrote:
People around here should try to calm a bit. This is a complex affair, and all this heat on the conversation really don't help it.

I'm trying to get the thread back on track, but people are so defensive about this discussion that they keep attacking me for doing research and placing the results I found so far in an article. They feel personally offended that I am not saying that the designers are stupid and that spell casters now suck. =X

But let's hope we can gather a group of people more inclined to help doing hard work, gathering data, making calculations, and discussing results so we can improve on this topic and on the overall theory behind PF2E system.

Dude, you really should learn how to handle discussions,when you want to public articles.


Red Griffyn wrote:


The statistic you've quoted does not account for the following key items which help you to minimize the actual differences seen in game:

1.) Comparison is only between 'martial' and caster and does not account for fighters who are clearly above the rest in accuracy.

2.) It doesn't account for the third action in many cases which increases turn by turn damage (and which isn't expressly available to a caster for use in the same manner without spending another spell slot on true strike).

3.) It doesn't account for any actual meta of the game or builds that use various feat combinations. The only build on your 'table' using a feat is a double shot ranged combatant. Everything else is just plain strikes. You are missing true strike swipe builds, pick/fatal builds, certain strike, double strike, rouge MCs for sneak attack, fighter MC monk for flurry/certain strike/certain strike, etc. You're comparing 2nd tier martials who didn't spec into damage or necessarily take an optimal turn of 3 action attacks against a caster who has little or no agency to increase the efficacy of their spells.

4.) It doesn't account for reactions that cause damage (especially Opportunity Attacks, Champion Reactions, stand still, etc.). These are often another strike and don't suffer MAP. It also doesn't account for additional reactions at higher levels (e.g., fighters get a second AoO, champions get a second reaction, etc.).

5.) It doesn't account for flat footed on the DPR calculations for martials. Getting this condition applied has almost no opportunity cost for a martial who is already moving into position for one round and thus freely increases expected average damage.

6.) Doesn't include the critical specialization abilities of various weapons (something you're counting as a boon for spells that strip actions). Three of the weapon specialization effects essentially mimic all of the 'lose an action' spells (i.e., brawling, flail, and hammer groups) and in some cases are better. Note the big difference is most martials gain access at L3 or L5, except you can crit on attacks every turn all day (even on the second strike or on a reaction attack).

7.) It isn't evident to me that various damage property runes are included in the damage calculations, which may skew results in favour of martials.

8.) It doesn't account for ranged penalties, which are most likely to be experienced by spell attack rolls (dropping their already bad spell attack roll further).

Really good points. I noticed the same reading the article!


citricking wrote:
Michael Alves wrote:
citricking wrote:

Guide for using expected damage comparison grapher

I made a guide for my tool for comparing expected damage of different attack routines. You can compare against different AC targets for levels 1 to 20, or against different ACs for a set level.

Here's a link to the tool
The guide linked above can explain how to use it.

Thread here

This might be helpful, it doesn't have spells vs saves yet, but you can at least compare with some cantrips that target AC

Great news!

Does this new tool changed anything that was already on the tables and graphs? (If so please let me know so I can improve the article accordingly.)

For future reference, I will be using your tool.
Thank you again for the time invested.

I think it shows you're underselling cantrips.

I made a graph comparing Telekinetic Projectile to a Longbow Fighter

TP is consistently doing half the longbow fighters damage if they both use two actions. That's good and worth using. Granted the fighter isn't using feats like certain strike or exacting strike. But that games math doesn't seem to assume you'll take those feats.

I'd say cantrips are certainly a valid option.

Doesn't seem to assume to take the Feats? What do you mean by that?

Michael:Great article.

The fighter you compare to, isn't really damage optimized I assume?


AsmodeusDM wrote:

Didn't expect this much conversation over my post.

One thing that came up a lot is "orcs wouldn't fight like that" or "look at their INT they wouldn't do that" or "that seems like hivemind tactics"

I'm curious how many players out there have ever had their DM (or group) disallow on action they took because it wasn't in-character for their character or race?

Or not a allow a PC to move to flank because their INT was 6?

Also, not sure what groups you guys play in, but my group plays in total mind-link level when we are planning our turns even if we are hundreds of feet apart in the dungeon.

Forgetting (for a moment) the effectiveness of such a tactic (someone did the math and it seemed like it's actually lower DPR, but again I believe the point of the tactic is to target softer targets such as the casters or in chokepoint scenerios).

Also, lastly, not white box but this happened a bunch throughout the Plaguestone adventure.

Just out of curiosity, what classes/builds you guys play?


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Squiggit wrote:

Huh, and here everyone said wizards were bad at necromancy this edition...

Deriven Firelion wrote:
I wish they hadn't made wizards so boring while nerfing magic this much. Bard and cleric magic was nerfed as well, but they seem far more fun to play.
Couldn't disagree more. 2e wizards are a lot more fun than 1e wizards, especially at low levels.

Why?? Couldn't disagree more.


The average damage is higher with attack+exacting strike+attack then power attack + attack.


There is a rune which mirrors the runes from your main weapon. So, you don't have to get all runes two times.

With double slice you have 2 attacks without MAP. The third and second attacks are not very helpful, when you want to fish for crits.


When you want to have a lot of crits go double slice.

At redit is a detailed power attack Analysis.


Gorbacz wrote:
Expectation Management: PF2 doesn't let you go as crazy with damage as PF1 did. If you're looking at DPR Olympics Winner kind of character, you will be disappointed - you can pull nice numbers that are slightly above a non-optimized PC, but you won't be looking at as big discrepancies as you could do in PF1.

I think he wants to have "big hits" and not a build that does high average damage.


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Great Pick Fighter + Weapon Surge + Power Attack. Should be something like 7d12+8 for a crit at level 4. For Weapon Surge you need to Mc into cleric or champion.

Obviously you don't have a lot of focus points.


What are you playing? Age of Ashes etc. ? What classes are the others playing?


citricking wrote:
I won't be updating this, but I'm making something that should be a lot better, hopefully I'll be done by the end of the week.

What are you working on?


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What's the point here? DPR analysis is not useless but not useful?

DPR or "theorycrafting" in general gives a pretty good insight into the system. PF2e is not rocket science. You want to play a damage focused character? Look into the damage charts. The end.

I don't get it...in every dpr thread someone is comming and meantions "it has nothing to do with the real game". DPR doesn't mean an overall better character and no one said the opposit. But you can compare builds for 1/2/3 actions, vs. flat-footed, vs. low/high ac and so on.

So, what's a better metric for damage output?


mrspaghetti wrote:
puksone wrote:
Syries wrote:

I think currently the best crit fisher is a fighter MC wizard with a staff of divination.

Make the target shaken, flank, and buff attacks on top of that and you’re probably looking at close to a 40% chance to crit, when factoring in the true strike boost.

You could play the same with a twf fighter. I think you get bespell weapon for all attacks.

Bespell Weapon:

You siphon the residual energy from the last spell you cast into one weapon you’re wielding.

ah my bad I misremembered.


Syries wrote:

I think currently the best crit fisher is a fighter MC wizard with a staff of divination.

Make the target shaken, flank, and buff attacks on top of that and you’re probably looking at close to a 40% chance to crit, when factoring in the true strike boost.

You could play the same with a twf fighter. I think you get bespell weapon for all attacks.


Mellored wrote:
Greatpick is the best weapon to crit with. Barb can use one.

I think it is only worth using when you play a fighter.


I would go for cleric or wizard dedication. gives you more spells per day and access to another spell list. There are usefull low level spells.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, there's a huge spike in Fighter damage precisely at level 10 with Certain Strike. At levels below 10 or above 11 (due to the aforementioned Blade of Justice) the DPR comparison looks much closer.

You also undersold Champion damage a bit by ignoring crit chance on the second attack.

+ second power attack dice at lvl 10.


citricking wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:
citricking wrote:

At level 10 other classes can get access to that by MC ing monk. At that point you have to consider their other advantages, like good strikes with the stances, higher Ac and movement, and stunning fist DC scaling.

Why would other classes MC into monk and use their fists? I don't see such a huge advantage in that?
To get flurry of blows, two attacks for one action.

But just with unarmed attacks or monk weapons?


Maxwell D'Ahmagge wrote:

Let's assume that for the sake of comparison, the Fighter with Power Attack and his buddy the Fighter with Exacting Strike are both 15' away from an enemy.

Fighter Pa strides up and uses his two remaining actions to Power Attack. He gets one swing which delivers 2x weapon damage, + Str Mod. he hits for a lot of damage... or he misses and gets none.

Fighter ES strides up and uses his two remaining actions to Exacting Strike and Strike. He gets one swing which delivers 1x weapon damage + Str Mod. 1) If he hits, he gets slightly better than 50% of the damage Fighter PA gets, then gets another Strike at -5 to hit. Which mostly (but not always) misses. 2) If Fighter ES misses, when gets to try again without a -5.

Generally, the Fighter with Exacting Strike gets ~55% of the damage the Fighter with Power Attack gets, but he gets that damage more often. Which is more usefull is going to depend on factors like AC for specific opponents, and well as HP (Chance of one-shotting a foe).

In general, I calls it a wash.

That's totally not how Exacting Strike works. Huge other factors are runes and static damage.

On reddit is a thread with a detailed comparison of PA and ES.


Power Attack is not too bad. Exacting strike is better but you have to do obviously 3+ attacks. All the damage output is pretty close, when you compare 3 normal attacks, normal attacks + exacting strike, normal attack + power attack.

Till level 6 attack + power attack is better then power attack + attack.


shroudb wrote:
puksone wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.

double charges on his Staff compared to sorc.

plus, better spellcasting for MC.

as written, spontaneous MC you only get 1 spell (per level) that you can cast. While with prepared MC you still cast only the one/two spells (per level), but you can switch them daily from all within your collection.

from arcane bond? but you don't get that from mc?


shroudb wrote:

I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.


True Strike gives some kind of a 5e advantage mechanic... that is pretty similar to a +4.


What kind of weapon style do you want to use? So Flickmace with shield is good but i wouldn't dual wield with flickmace. When going two-handed weapons flickmace is obviously not your thing.

Why sailor background?


TWF Fighter works great with MCing into Ranger.


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No, you don't miss something. Summons are just freaking bad.


When he wants a lot of damage: I would go for fighter then mc barbarian. Weapon choice should be pick and light pick. One of the best weapons for a dual wielding fighter.

Does less damage then a fighter/ranger but it's oke.


rayous brightblade wrote:
Whip is also good for 1 handed fighters/paladins. Non lethal only matters for things that are immune to non lethal for the most part and it is reach/trip and disarm.

With MC. I guess rogue is good for dps.


http://pf2.d20pfsrd.com/rules/equipment/

It's a one-handed weapon according to the "Table 6–7: Melee Weapons".

What synergy? AoO?


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I can't really figure out an interessting fighter build. All that grab and shove stuff doesn't seem too appealing for me.

What are funny fighter builds with/without MC?


I don't get the flickmace hype. Ranseur has reach, one-handed and a D10 dmg. The crit specialization is a little bit situational.

What is the best dpr build for a fighter?


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I feel like with PF2E there will be a bunch of new problems. Some things work better and a lot (really a lot) is even worse. I don't care about game stability when I have unappealing and boring class powers and feats.


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A playable wizard.


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Lausth wrote:
Cast no spells in first two encounters?Right.Definitely the most fun experience i can imagine.

And that is the point why nerfing spells per day is just stupid. You play a wizard? What do you want to do? Casting freaking spells!

I don't want to hold back all the time the good spells for a potential huge fight. It's just boring. I don't understand the design choice behind it. It's obvious that the old spells per day system has some flaws. Even in PF1 it could be boring to play a low level wizard doing most fights absolutely nothing.

Now high level spells don't even have a huge impact. I don't want the overpowered wizard of PF1 back. I just want a wizard that is fun to play.


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I was pretty hyped when I saw the first blog posts and then extremly disappointed after reading the playtest rulebook.

Even so there are some promising rule changes, I don't see me playing it over a long period. Main reason are the terrible design choices regarding the classes. Look at feats like warded touch! Is that a sexy feat? Hell no. Now I have ancestry feats, skill feats, class feats and general feats. But none of those feats are designed cool or awesome (or matter).

Looking through the book... I don't want to play any of those classes. Playing PF1 i can't decide what I want to play, because there is so much cool stuff.

Balance and game stability is important but not the main goal to achive. The main goal (for me at least) is to have classes/races/feats that are fun to play and feel good.


and take the hex slumber (best hex with evil eye imo) and the feat ability focus slumber.


U can still wear the armor. Just get a good fort. save.


That Icy Prison spell is weird.
So if the target makes its save it is entangled for 1 min/level and gets 1 point of cold damage/level every round. wtf?

When the target fails its save it is in the icy prison and takes the same damage every round. But when someone destroys the ice or the target makes the Strength check, it is free and take no further damage. ( I know my GM some minions will destroy the ice)

So in some cases it is even better when the target fails its save. I got that right?


Cibulan wrote:

Cool guide but you've missed one of the best post-CRB combos:

Snapdragon Fireworks + Dazing Spell + Heighten Spell = Once per round you can pretty much lock down one opponent.

For example, at level 11 (my current level in the game I play in), I can prepare this as a 6th level spell. For 11 rounds I can lob a firework with a maxed out save DC. If they fail (which they almost always do since you're targeting Ref), they're dazed for 6 rounds (thanks to heighten spell). After your first round, you can use your standard for a new spell, your move for a firework, and your swift to move (teleportation school).

Snapdragon plus dazing spell is one of the most cost effective god combos since it last so long.

wow nice combo. why is it level 6 ? snap dragon is lvl 1 + 3 for dazing + 2 heighten....so it uses a level 6 spell slot, but is like a level 3 spell. So it would daze for 3 rounds?

is the daze effect mind-affecting?

thx

really great guide so far.

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