Take up of Second Edition


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Lisa Stevens wrote:

Since quotes from Lisa Stevens seem important in this thread, Pathfinder 2nd edition is doing great and I am really happy with the way it is selling. And just for the record, Paizo isn't smaller, it is larger than it has ever been. And we are growing even more in the coming months.

I have been involved with quite a few edition change in my 35+ years in this industry. It always takes time for existing customers to take on the new edition. Always. It has nothing to do with how good a new edition is and everything to do with ongoing campaigns that need to be finished up.

And some people will never change, which is also cool. It is great when you are able to give people their perfect game on the first go around and also give them a lifetime of content to play with that game. Actually quite proud that we seem to have done that for quite a few people.

But make no mistake, Pathfinder 2 is doing really well and I expect will continue to grow over the next five years or so. So many new customers in the marketplace that it is the most fertile ground to launch a new edition on in the history of our industry.

Thanks, Lisa. Really glad to be here for another Paizo success. My metric is always staff numbers. I’m glad to see so many people able to carve out a career in the RPG world.

I look forward to PF2’s evolution and for whatever new thing is on the horizon.

Liberty's Edge

MaxAstro wrote:
Jester David wrote:
Do you think that's likely to remotely convince anyone?

I'm a numbers guy. Data is literally my job. When I said I would interested to see evidence, I wasn't speaking for anyone else. I, personally, would be interested to see any evidence, pro or con, because I love numbers and data.

I also deal with a lot of people who don't like being straight with me in my job, and I have to say answering "do you have any evidence?" with "no one believes evidence anyway" is a dodgy dodge of a dodging way to avoid saying no, you don't have any evidence.

So, respectfully, as they say: Put up or...

There are no numbers. Zero. Anywhere. Only Paizo has numbers. *Everything* is speculative.

Even the GenCon sales factoid is vague. We know it sold well, but we don’t know how much better it did than Starfinder, how big a percentage of the total sales came from GenCon for PF1.
Or how the staff is talking about how great the game is doing. Which is cool and all... but the CEO of WotC was talking about how great D&D was doing as late as 2011, while staff was being let go and they started frantically cancelling books.

I can point to the subscriber count of PF2 Reddit vs PF Reddit, the low numbers of games on Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, the number of streamed games on Twitch, the limited number of 3rd Party products (and even fewer that have medals on DriveThru), and the like. But none of that really means anything. That’s not going to convince anyone.
(And even if I had hard numbers, people would just ignore me, because you can’t ever change anyone’s mind online. Ever.)
But none of that *really* has hard numbers one way or another.

The best you can say is how a comedy Wendy’s RPG blew the viewership of Knights of Everflame out of the water in a single night. Or how the first episode has 3x the views as the second episode, so lots of people watched but only a third kept watching, and how viewership is matched by the Vampire show LA by Night.
But that doesn’t map to people playing their own games... Success in streaming doesn’t mean success in stores.

None of us can put up.
But I doubt any of us are going to shut up.

And, really, it doesn't matter. The game is out. It’s going to continue to exist regardless. There’s already more content than many other RPGs being published.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

>everything is speculative
>Wendy's commercial of a mainstream burger chain blew Knights of Everflame out of water

*snorts a line*


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jester David wrote:
you can’t ever change anyone’s mind online. Ever.

Exhibit A


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Pf2 being the system for one of the most popular shows of a podcast network is not evidence of it doing well.
Good sales numbers are not evidence of it doing well.
The company expanding is not evidence of it doing well.
Reviews booming are not evidence of it doing well.
#pf2_general being the most active channel in discord.gg/pathfinder is not evidence of it doing well.
Archive of Nethys visit count is not evidence of it doing well, so I might not bother asking.

Reminds me of that old tv show where a priest and an atheist were asked “what would change your mind?” and the atheist said ‘evidence’ while the priest said ‘nothing’.

Why don’t you tell us what would be evidence? If there is no answer, the thread has no point, so you might as well ignore it.

Ps. I often downplay the 2e subreddit myself, mostly because I try to push for more 2e activity in the main subreddit. There’s a lot to be gained by having people with experience in both system in the same discussion area.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

One thing I like about this forum is that many of you fine men and women have made me change my mind on several occasions.

It's very apparent when some people are arguing in bad faith, and you can gently ignore them.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
One thing I like about this forum is that many of you fine men and women have made me change my mind on several occasions.

Me too. The line that “nobody ever changes their mind in online debates” is demonstrably false (though can presumably be taken as a good faith declaration of the speaker’s intention).

I’m a mathematician and an accountant. I’ve lectured in econometrics and I spend a good proportion of my time analysing data for businesses. It’s always incomplete, subjective, subject to selection bias....that’s part of the analysis though. It doesn’t mean “we don’t know the full story, therefore anything could be true”.

We don’t know how well PF2 will be doing in five years time, but we DO know that PF2 is doing well now. That’s something worth celebrating and paizo and their staff deserve congratulations. I hope and expect them to build on their success, the way they nearly always have done in the past.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

Since quotes from Lisa Stevens seem important in this thread, Pathfinder 2nd edition is doing great and I am really happy with the way it is selling. And just for the record, Paizo isn't smaller, it is larger than it has ever been. And we are growing even more in the coming months.

I have been involved with quite a few edition change in my 35+ years in this industry. It always takes time for existing customers to take on the new edition. Always. It has nothing to do with how good a new edition is and everything to do with ongoing campaigns that need to be finished up.

And some people will never change, which is also cool. It is great when you are able to give people their perfect game on the first go around and also give them a lifetime of content to play with that game. Actually quite proud that we seem to have done that for quite a few people.

But make no mistake, Pathfinder 2 is doing really well and I expect will continue to grow over the next five years or so. So many new customers in the marketplace that it is the most fertile ground to launch a new edition on in the history of our industry.

Thanks, Lisa. Really glad to be here for another Paizo success. My metric is always staff numbers. I’m glad to see so many people able to carve out a career in the RPG world.

I look forward to PF2’s evolution and for whatever new thing is on the horizon.

These two thoughts always cinch it for me - if the head of the company is quite happy with sales, AND if there are no Doom and Gloom stories of mass staff layoffs or no stories of freelancers not getting paid, then all meaningful evidence to me points to “PF2 and Paizo are doing well and no one should be worrying” and I’m happy for them.

(I say this as someone who has pretty much stopped playing PF2 for the most part and plays 5e currently, but I’m always satisfied if Paizo and competition in general are doing well. Given If the Theory of Network Externalities is still working as intended, the huge glut of new millions of role players over the past five years that D&D has seen, even in the absence of ANY other factors such as new players only playing PF2 as their first game, etc. then Network Externalities would ensure that Paizo would be doing well anyway as a percentage of all those new role players wanted to branch out into something different from 5e to scratch new itches.)


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I am not subbed to the pf2e subreddit but I have to the pfrpg subreddit. Despite being unlikely to ever run another pf1e game again as long as I live.

The pfrpg subreddit was also filled with living salt golem literal wastes of space at the launch of pf2e. Actively downvoting every single pf2e flaired post enmasse, of some impact to people who post stuff like Ediwir (Well crafted and generally entertaining). But super sucky for people who were new to RPGs and who were just asking for help or sharing their initial experience.

Thankfully this has died down with only a few extremists weirdos keeping at it.


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Atavist wrote:
Like the Star Wars RPG pops up there whenever there's a Star Wars movie on the horizon.

It's pretty much a constant on the list. 5e is the big item, PF was usually second, then you'd get some 'Hot New Thing' (sometimes more than one) or 'Latest G&S Game' fighting for 3rd place with FFG Star Wars. As those New/Latest items lose some of the shiny they drop away but Star Wars has stayed in/around for years.

And there are one or two companies who put out sales numbers. We're about due for Evil Hat's yearly report which lists sales for all their items, for instance.


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Lisa Stevens wrote:
Since quotes from Lisa Stevens seem important in this thread, Pathfinder 2nd edition is doing great and I am really happy with the way it is selling. And just for the record, Paizo isn't smaller, it is larger than it has ever been. And we are growing even more in the coming months.

The fact that Paizo is growing is the important part to me. The way I see it both Pathfinder and Starfinder are doing well enough to not only support the current employees, but so well that Paizo need to, and are able to, hire new ones. Who of course will bring us all more awesome Pathfinder and Starfinder material.


Gorbacz wrote:
Meanwhile, 264 ratings, PF2 CRB is getting closer to half the amount of ratings PF1 CRB got over 10 years.

I'm not going to suggest that PF2 isn't doing well so far. What information we have from Paizo supports the idea that it's exceeded their expectations to date. Which is good.

What I am going to suggest is that you stop trotting out this meaningless metric that you've latched onto. You might as well be pulling out a metric such as "number of tweets Babe Ruth posted." At the time he was playing baseball, Twitter wasn't a thing. My point is that at the time that PF1 was released, we were (very slightly) before the era wherein every orifice with a human attached to it feels the need to "express themselves" and "let the world know what they think". People didn't/couldn't post as many "ratings" as the do/can today. Once again to make a baseball reference, Mickey Mantle rookie trading cards are valuable today because... well... at the time nobody thought in terms of future value, and many, many things were thrown away. Today, someone, somewhere keeps a bunch of random crap in case someday it's valuable. Times change, and "ratings" is a thing people do today. So yeah, this sand you keep throwing out has been slowly turning into a pearl in my shell because it's irritating. Please stop.

Silver Crusade

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You do know he's just gonna respond with another review number update now, right?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is, at least until Icv2 gets around to their Fall 2019 report. The ratio of purchases to reviews seems to be consistent at Amazon, so it's the one number I have against all the "nobody is playing it in Springfield, Nebraska, so it's a failure" people.

Also, using baseball trading cards and player names as an analogy in discussion with a European is so delightfully funny, every time.


Gorbacz wrote:
271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is

I disagree. You could quote statistics such as the number of kumquats per cubic meter in Algeria or the number of clowns available for hire at children's birthdays whose blood type is O negative. There are many, many pointless statistics that have zero bearing on the conversation, and you could have picked from any of them. This one has the illusion of usefulness because it has the word "Pathfinder" in it.

Quote:
, at least until Icv2 gets around to their Fall 2019 report. The ratio of purchases to reviews seems to be consistent at Amazon, so it's the one number I have against all the "nobody is playing it in Springfield, Nebraska, so it's a failure" people.

Meh. There's no point dealing with the "it's a failure" people. They aren't receptive to fact, let alone conjecture.

Quote:
Also, using baseball trading cards and player names as an analogy in discussion with a European is so delightfully funny, every time.

I'm guessing this where you've assumed I'm American? While my country does have professional baseball teams, we only do it to keep them from realizing we're foreigners. The analogy was chosen because I could lead from a famous name to a less-famous name in the same industry whose fame is mostly associated with his card's value. I'm a nerd, not a sportsball-watcher, and even I know these names. I assumed a vaunted European would be worldly enough to know these things... <Grin>


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Also European, so I’ll skip the baseball talk and just summarise.

Reviews of pf2 are a somewhat meaningful metric. Reviews of pf1 are not, especially when attached to the words “over ten years”.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Anguish wrote:
PF1 was released, we were (very slightly) before the era wherein every orifice with a human attached to it feels the need to "express themselves" and "let the world know what they think". People didn't/couldn't post as many "ratings" as the do/can today.

Except of course that Gorbacz isn’t just using ye random ratings, he is using Amazon ratings, an Amazon site feature that was a decade old when the PF1 book went on sale in 2009. Purchase reviews from 2009 and 2019 are directly comparable.


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Eh, yes and no. There’s definitely a lot more frequency in recent years.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ediwir wrote:
Eh, yes and no. There’s definitely a lot more frequency in recent years.

More frequency of reviews on Amazon’s product pages? On what would that claim be based?


dirtypool wrote:
Ediwir wrote:
Eh, yes and no. There’s definitely a lot more frequency in recent years.
More frequency of reviews on Amazon’s product pages? On what would that claim be based?

On the fact that Bezos was not amongst the 50 richest men in the world. Amazon was 10 times smaller .

Anyway, comparing the release of the first product of a five-year old company and the new version of a major market contender is comparing apples to oranges.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

On the fact that Bezos was not amongst the 50 richest men in the world. Amazon was 10 times smaller .

Anyway, comparing the release of the first product of a five-year old company and the new version of a major market contender is comparing apples to oranges.

Sure, he was only the 57th richest man in the world, having not yet conquered the entirety of the retail market. That completely proves that product reviews on a site that sells the core rule book of a Roleplaying Game are apples when compared with the oranges that are product reviews on a site that sells the core rulebook of a Roleplaying game.

I believe the point Gorbacz is making is that there is no hard data out there, the closest you can use to cross compare the two products financial success is that one metric that existed in both release timelines. Eventually there will be actual data you can parse and the people who want to Monday morning quarterback the marketing are welcome to do so. Until then, multiple Paizo employees have said they’re pleased with the launch and continue to be pleased - one of them being the CEO.

Can we drop this futile and as yet unprovable debate about success now?


The OP wanted to sort the "sides" out, "for" and "against", it looks like out of sheer curiosity, based on what people who post online are reporting. To me, there are three ways to engage with the new edition:

1) not at all
2) see what everyone else is doing first, then decide
3) decide to jump right in and explore, maybe purchase the books

If anything, trying to analyze the profitability of the product seems more like what folks in the middle are interested in. Folks in the first and last group could probably be unconcerned with how PF2 is "doing" (at least in the short term).

My gut tells me it's going to continue to grow, and I'll concede that this is pure conjecture. At the same time, I'm going to make sure that happens in my area, because as a DM, I have the power to do so by adopting the system, and as a consumer, I like to support products I appreciate with purchase.

Also the back-and-forth about "unprovability" and "baseball" is entertaining...

Sovereign Court

Gorbacz wrote:

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is, at least until Icv2 gets around to their Fall 2019 report. The ratio of purchases to reviews seems to be consistent at Amazon, so it's the one number I have against all the "nobody is playing it in Springfield, Nebraska, so it's a failure" people.

Also, using baseball trading cards and player names as an analogy in discussion with a European is so delightfully funny, every time.

Here's a more personal metric: My long-time gaming group that I have been playing with for the last 10+ years, that has played Pathfinder 1e since it first came out after switching directly front D&D 3.5, is completely unwilling to even give PF2e a single trial game session, despite the fact that I and over half of the group bought the 2e books. I want to at least give it a try, and even volunteered to DM it, but no takers. They want to stick with PF1e instead. Maybe when one of the 2 campaigns we are involved in finishes they might be more willing to give it a try (that's my hope, anyway). By then the DM's Guide, APG, and Bestiary 2 should all be out and that might make them more interested.

Also, I left a review of PF2e on Amazon, but I never left one for 1e despite owning it for the last 10 years. So raw review numbers isn't everything.


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I find it absolutely bizzare that a group won't even give it a whirl. You can play it with zero money investiture and close to 0 GM prep investiture (pregen characters, rules and a starter scenario are all available for free.)


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Gorbacz wrote:


248 ratings!

Meanwhile, 264 ratings,

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is.

Sorry, you might find this data valuable, but the frequent updates are pretty tiresome. Maybe you could just let us know when it hits 500 or something?

Updating everyone every couple of days just makes you look really oddly defensive.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is, at least until Icv2 gets around to their Fall 2019 report. The ratio of purchases to reviews seems to be consistent at Amazon, so it's the one number I have against all the "nobody is playing it in Springfield, Nebraska, so it's a failure" people.

Also, using baseball trading cards and player names as an analogy in discussion with a European is so delightfully funny, every time.

Here's a more personal metric: My long-time gaming group that I have been playing with for the last 10+ years, that has played Pathfinder 1e since it first came out after switching directly front D&D 3.5, is completely unwilling to even give PF2e a single trial game session, despite the fact that I and over half of the group bought the 2e books. I want to at least give it a try, and even volunteered to DM it, but no takers. They want to stick with PF1e instead. Maybe when one of the 2 campaigns we are involved in finishes they might be more willing to give it a try (that's my hope, anyway). By then the DM's Guide, APG, and Bestiary 2 should all be out and that might make them more interested.

Also, I left a review of PF2e on Amazon, but I never left one for 1e despite owning it for the last 10 years. So raw review numbers isn't everything.

Wait, are you saying that you've reviewed the game and developed an extensive set of house rules aimed at fixing problems and shortcomings of the ruleset but you haven't played it even once?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Anguish wrote:


I'm guessing this where you've assumed I'm American? While my country does have professional baseball teams, we only do it to keep them from realizing we're foreigners. The analogy was chosen because I could lead from a famous name to a less-famous name in the same industry whose fame is mostly associated with his card's value. I'm a nerd, not a sportsball-watcher, and even I know these names. I assumed a vaunted European would be worldly enough to know these things... <Grin>

Honestly, where and who you are doesn't really figure into this. Baseball doesn't exist in Europe, short of a small cohort of dedicated fans who are dwarfed by the number of water polo aficionados. Baseball simply doesn't register in collective European culture. We don't know the rules, we don't know the superstars, to make things worse, we haven't even got a clue what trading cards are and what is their cultural relevance. We get basketball since it's a sport popular in the US and EU, so we know Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Since I'm up north, we know hockey and the name Wayne Gretzky rings a bell. But baseball? I'm as lost as a Texan would be if they were to tell apart CR7, Lewy and The Swan of Utrecht. Sorry!


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Tsukiyo wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


248 ratings!

Meanwhile, 264 ratings,

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is.

Sorry, you might find this data valuable, but the frequent updates are pretty tiresome. Maybe you could just let us know when it hits 500 or something?

Updating everyone every couple of days just makes you look really oddly defensive.

I enjoy him posting them, and it’s relevant to the thread.

If anything I think posting legitimate updates that show the take up of PF2 are far more relevant than people spouting anecdotal evidence and trying to start edition wars. Especially coming from people that haven’t even played it in a thread about the take up of the game.

It’s not defensive, it’s literally a statistic. If that offends someone, maybe they should be less defensive.


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Malk_Content wrote:
I find it absolutely bizzare that a group won't even give it a whirl. You can play it with zero money investiture and close to 0 GM prep investiture (pregen characters, rules and a starter scenario are all available for free.)

Finding the time to learn a new set of rules and to play it (when one could be continuing an existing campaign) are more of a concern to many people than the financial cost.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is, at least until Icv2 gets around to their Fall 2019 report. The ratio of purchases to reviews seems to be consistent at Amazon, so it's the one number I have against all the "nobody is playing it in Springfield, Nebraska, so it's a failure" people.

Also, using baseball trading cards and player names as an analogy in discussion with a European is so delightfully funny, every time.

Here's a more personal metric: My long-time gaming group that I have been playing with for the last 10+ years, that has played Pathfinder 1e since it first came out after switching directly front D&D 3.5, is completely unwilling to even give PF2e a single trial game session, despite the fact that I and over half of the group bought the 2e books. I want to at least give it a try, and even volunteered to DM it, but no takers. They want to stick with PF1e instead. Maybe when one of the 2 campaigns we are involved in finishes they might be more willing to give it a try (that's my hope, anyway). By then the DM's Guide, APG, and Bestiary 2 should all be out and that might make them more interested.

Also, I left a review of PF2e on Amazon, but I never left one for 1e despite owning it for the last 10 years. So raw review numbers isn't everything.

Wait, are you saying that you've reviewed the game and developed an extensive set of house rules aimed at fixing problems and shortcomings of the ruleset but you haven't played it even once?

Somehow this doesn't surprise me.

Most of the posts that I've seen complaining and then attempting to "fix" rules come from people who haven't played the game or who misinterpreted rules then made house rules based on thier flawed understanding.

Makes thier house rules suspect, I wonder if they've actually played thier own rule changes at all since they aren't playing pf2


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Tsukiyo wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


248 ratings!

Meanwhile, 264 ratings,

271. I'm sorry, it's the only metric there is.

Sorry, you might find this data valuable, but the frequent updates are pretty tiresome. Maybe you could just let us know when it hits 500 or something?

Updating everyone every couple of days just makes you look really oddly defensive.

You know you can just... not read this thread, right?

It's not like anything you say is going to influence Gorbacz, anyway - he's a stubborn and contrary bag of devouring and your suffering only feeds him. :P

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh, I'm taking umbrage here. I'm not fueled by suffering. That's the other people. I'm driven by adversity. Remember, arguing with a lawyer is like wrestling with pigs in the mud - sooner or later, to your utter horror, you realise that they like it.


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Malk_Content wrote:
I find it absolutely bizzare that a group won't even give it a whirl. You can play it with zero money investiture and close to 0 GM prep investiture (pregen characters, rules and a starter scenario are all available for free.)

Imo, while Archives of Nethys and other PRDs are great for rules referencing, they're not nearly as good as the book when it comes to actually learning the rules.

Sovereign Court

Gorbacz wrote:


Wait, are you saying that you've reviewed the game and developed an extensive set of house rules aimed at fixing problems and shortcomings of the ruleset but you haven't played it even once?

Yes, I am. That is because I have over 40 years of gaming experience in all, and I have actually written other game books and know how games work. Also, I listen to comments on the forums to hear what people are unhappy about, and I take many of their comments and suggestions into account. It doesn't mean I always do things the way they'd prefer, but I consider everyone's comments.

On the whole, I probably have more gaming experience in general than most of the PF2e writers, and a vast array of experience with a very wide variety of game systems. Plus, I know what I personally enjoy and prefer, and how to make a good base game into a game I would enjoy even more, and that is what my house rules try to do. If others feel the same as I do about certain topics, they are welcome to check out my housie rules, which I give away free for everyone to look at and use the parts they wish to use. If it doesn't work for them, they can drop the house rule and go back to the core rule, or create their own house rule that does what they want instead. Players should never be afraid of changing a game's rules out of some idea that "Well, these writers must know exactly what they are doing so I'll wait for official errata to fix this issue in my game, no matter how long it takes or how they change the rule (which may not fix my issue anyway)."

Shadow Lodge

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Obligatory reaction.

Silver Crusade

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Samurai wrote:
Yes, I am. That is because I have over 40 years of gaming experience in all,
P2 hasn’t even been out 6 months
Quote:
and I have actually written other game books and know how games work.
Games aren’t universal though.
Quote:
Also, I listen to comments on the forums to hear what people are unhappy about, and I take many of their comments and suggestions into account. It doesn't mean I always do things the way they'd prefer, but I consider everyone's comments.
Someone complaining about something isn’t justification itself for changing mechanics, especially if they haven’t used them.
Quote:
On the whole, I probably have more gaming experience in general than most of the PF2e writers,
... >_>
Quote:
Players should never be afraid of changing a game's rules out of some idea that "Well, these writers must know exactly what they are doing so I'll wait for official errata to fix this issue in my game, no matter how long it takes or how they change the rule (which may not fix my issue anyway)."

Those are two completely separate things.

Also I highly doubt anyone actually thinks that.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd be rather cautious with claiming experience from the LEGO and plastic dinosaurs days of being 8 years old as street cred in gaming design. But then again, child prodigies and early, wait for it, b(l)oomers happen every now and then.


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Yes, I am. That is because I have more than 40 years of movie-watching experience in all, and I have actually directed short-films and I know how movies work. Also, I listen to test audiences to hear what people are unhappy about, and I take many of their comments and suggestions into account. It doesn't mean I always do things the way they'd prefer, but I consider everyone's comments.

On the whole, I probably have more film-making experience in general than most professional directors and a vast array of experience with a very wide variety of genres.

As you see, I took the liberty to alter your comment slightly and replace the context of it with another one, to illustrate how ridiculous this comment reads. Would you take this person's opinion on the latest Scorsese movie, in which they claim they know more than him about his movie, seriously after reading that?

Sovereign Court

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Gorbacz wrote:
I'd be rather cautious with claiming experience from the LEGO and plastic dinosaurs days of being 8 years old as street cred in gaming design. But then again, child prodigies and early, wait for it, b(l)oomers happen every now and then.

Ha, ha. But actually we never used figures back in the Basic D&D days, it was all theatre of the mind. If we needed to show placement we just used dice or drawing on scraps of paper. I didn't even buy my first game figure until the 2000's.

Sovereign Court

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Gratz wrote:

Yes, I am. That is because I have more than 40 years of movie-watching experience in all, and I have actually directed short-films and I know how movies work. Also, I listen to test audiences to hear what people are unhappy about, and I take many of their comments and suggestions into account. It doesn't mean I always do things the way they'd prefer, but I consider everyone's comments.

On the whole, I probably have more film-making experience in general than most professional directors and a vast array of experience with a very wide variety of genres.

As you see, I took your comment and replaced the context of it with another one to showcase how ridiculous this comment reads. Would you take this person's opinion on the latest Scorsese movie, in which they claim they know more than him about his movie, seriously after reading that?

Except I haven't spent 40 years just watching movies (or games), I've actually been a player and GM most of that time. (As I said, my weekly gaming group still plays PF1e). And it wasn't just "short films" I've worked on, but professionally published books by such gaming companies as Cubicle 7, Hero Games, Green Ronin, Guardians of Order (Tri-stat), and several more.

But we are not here to go over my resume. People are free to use what I create or not, to use my free house rules (or not ) and read my review like anyone else's (and who knows how much any of the other PF2 reviewers have actually played?)

Silver Crusade

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There’s a difference between reviewing a game and offering “fixes” on it when you haven’t played it.

And also claiming you know more than the designers.


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You certainly like to go onto advice threads and say "I suggest playing with my house rules instead". When you haven't even played the game yet... I don't know. It leaves an odd taste in the mouth.


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Samurai wrote:
I have actually written other game books... On the whole, I probably have more gaming experience in general than most of the PF2e writers, and a vast array of experience with a very wide variety of game systems.

I'd love to see some of your best selling RPG systems in print, can you link me??


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
But we are not here to go over my resume.

If your intent is not to go over your resume, why do you keep bringing up that you have one?

Sovereign Court

Rysky wrote:

There’s a difference between reviewing a game and offering “fixes” on it when you haven’t played it.

And also claiming you know more than the designers.

I didn't say I know more than them (they wrote the darn book), I'm saying I probably have more gaming experience than most of them. (Not all of them, and not "experience with PF2", just general gaming experience).

And personal experience can color a person's attitude as well. A great GM and group of players can make a terrible game fun, and a bad GM and group of players can make a great game terrible. That's something you learn with experience.

Sovereign Court

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Brew Bird wrote:
You certainly like to go onto advice threads and say "I suggest playing with my house rules instead". When you haven't even played the game yet... I don't know. It leaves an odd taste in the mouth.

Well, if people are complaining about something I have already found a personal solution for as well, why not offer it as a place to look? Should I just say "Oh well, sucks to be you, wait until the Devs issue an errata, don't try to fix it yourself!", or shake my head and think "maybe they will find a fix on their own, I'm keeping my own fix to myself!"


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
[I probably have more gaming experience than most of them.

Me too. I dont see any good evidence that experience playing games correlates strongly with being good at game design.

I do often see people cite their pedigree as a gamer when their ideas on game design are challenged. You should be careful you’re not falling into that trap.

Sovereign Court

Steve Geddes wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
You certainly like to go onto advice threads and say "I suggest playing with my house rules instead". When you haven't even played the game yet... I don't know. It leaves an odd taste in the mouth.
Well, if people are complaining about something I have already found a personal solution for as well, why not offer it as a place to look? Should I just say "Oh well, sucks to be you, wait until the Devs issue an errata, don't try to fix it yourself!", or shake my head and think "maybe they will find a fix on their own, I'm keeping my own fix to myself!"

As a professional game designer you will appreciate the value of playtesting. At the very least a warning that your suggested adjustments to PF2 haven’t been playtested would be courteous, I would think.

Has any rule you’ve written ever survived contact with playtesters, editing and development unaltered? I’m guessing not so these are probably no exception.

Yes, they have. I created several threads of my house rules, and the earlier ones were for people to go out and test the rules I suggested, and I then made changes based on their feedback. That is how all my house rules work. If a lot of people come back and say "we tested this rule change and found it doesn't work, or it messes up this other feature", I make changes, or just remove my suggestion. My current rule change doc is on version 1.55, and every increase in # was more or different changes. That's why I started keep track of the changes, which was another suggestion from playtesters ("put a change log in the back")


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Nevermind.

Good luck.

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