Call for Feedback: The Index


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Looked Up: Bolstered
Found

Looked Up: Change Grip
Not found, had to search the PDF for Table 6-2: Changing Equipment


Wanted to look up the rules for suffocation. Tried "suffocation" in the index, not found. Remembered "Breathe Deep" action, found that. Had to flip from that action to the suffocation rules.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Looked for Poison and Disease.

Poison existed but brought me to an Alchemy section which had nothing to do with my question on how poisons mechanics worked.

Eventually I figured out I needed to look up afflictions.

Perhaps adding Poison - see Afflictions and Disease - see Afflictions would help.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

When using the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, did you use the Index in the back of the book? If so, did you find what you are looking for?

If now, please let us know in this thread so that we can be sure that the final index meets your needs.

Want to help, here is how:
1. Post the topic you were trying to search for in the Index.
2. Post the words you used to try and find that topic.

This thread is only for posting up specific index issues. Comments and discussions should be reserved for other threads and will be removed if posted here.

Thank you for taking part in the Pathfinder Playtest.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

1. I needed to know if a character could activate a Healing Potion using their resonance for another character.

2. Resonance.

Result: Success, while the information lead to a gray area, the index put me right where I needed to be.


Was looking up how many HP are healed each day from sleep.

Used terms: Healing, Natural Healing, Recovery, and finally found it under Rest.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Strachan Fireblade wrote:

Looked for Poison and Disease.

Poison existed but brought me to an Alchemy section which had nothing to do with my question on how poisons mechanics worked.

Eventually I figured out I needed to look up afflictions.

Perhaps adding Poison - see Afflictions and Disease - see Afflictions would help.

We had the same issue last night playtesting - it took forever to look up poisons, and the index wasn't helpful at all.


Tried to look up the "sweep" trait and couldn't find anything.

PCs got a "minor healing potion." Tried looking up that phrase, nothing. Tried looking up "potions" (which I thought for sure would be in the index) but nada.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Want to help, here is how:

1. Post the topic you were trying to search for in the Index.
2. Post the words you used to try and find that topic.

1. I wanted to find out how to calculate Perception DCs.

2. I looked up DC and Difficulty Class in the index.


Opened the book randomly and came across Unconventional weaponry human feat, followed that to weapons and came across Improvised weapons. Read about poor quality of improvised weapons.

1: Looked up Quality

2: Could not find it, found it under item quality.


I did NOT find what I was looking for. In fact, I still haven't. Trying to find a reason wizards shouldn't wear armor - looking for what the non-proficiency penalty is to spellcasting. Tried looking under Armor, Proficiency, Non-Proficiency, Spellcasting.

Liberty's Edge

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Keith Langley wrote:
I did NOT find what I was looking for. In fact, I still haven't. Trying to find a reason wizards shouldn't wear armor - looking for what the non-proficiency penalty is to spellcasting. Tried looking under Armor, Proficiency, Non-Proficiency, Spellcasting.

There isn't such a reason. Not for Wizard specifically, anyway. Anyone has issues wearing armor they aren't proficient in, but those are it.


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Gear for starting off higher than level 1.

"Character Wealth" was not found in the index. Looked for that phrase and "starting above level one" and a few other phrases. Never found it in the index. Stumbled upon the table when going back through the chapter on treasure.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

When using the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, did you use the Index in the back of the book? If so, did you find what you are looking for?

If now, please let us know in this thread so that we can be sure that the final index meets your needs.

Want to help, here is how:
1. Post the topic you were trying to search for in the Index.
2. Post the words you used to try and find that topic.

This thread is only for posting up specific index issues. Comments and discussions should be reserved for other threads and will be removed if posted here.

Thank you for taking part in the Pathfinder Playtest.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

1.) trinket

2.) trinket
(Could not find it, until I stumbled on it under magic items: trinket)

I have found ALMOST everything I searched for in the index, overall very impressed.

Sovereign Court

Persistent damage - where can I find this explained?

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

When using the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, did you use the Index in the back of the book? If so, did you find what you are looking for?

If now, please let us know in this thread so that we can be sure that the final index meets your needs.

Want to help, here is how:
1. Post the topic you were trying to search for in the Index.
2. Post the words you used to try and find that topic.

This thread is only for posting up specific index issues. Comments and discussions should be reserved for other threads and will be removed if posted here.

Thank you for taking part in the Pathfinder Playtest.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

1.) draw/equip/sheath a weapon

2.) draw, equip, grab, manipulate

Couldn't find it, but I'm fairly confident it's a manipulate action to sheath or draw a weapon, and a free action to drop one. Clarification welcome.


- Went looking for how Poison DC's worked, and how a PC progress along the stages, what onset periods were, etc..
- Looked under 'Poisons' in the index.

'Poisons' only leads to a list of poisons, and a paragraph which points to the actual rules for poison (afflictions) about 30 pages prior. Not super useful when flipping through pages hastily mid-game.


Searched for how to handle damaging objects, checked:

'Damaging objects'

'Object, damaging'

'Material Strength' - found 'materials' which gave me hardness values, but not how to use the PF2 mechanic

'Destroying objects'

...all with no luck.

Finally found what I wanted under 'Dents', but without knowing that was the new PF2 mechanic, I wouldn't have known to check for it.

Perhaps could work if the body of the text under 'Materials' included a reference page number for the part of the book that deals with how to adjudicate damaging objects.


Trying to figure out how precision damage works.

Looked up "precision", "damage, precision", nada.

Found it (with the search function) in the damage section with its own little bold-headed paragraph. I'm sure its omission was a simple oversight. The description could be a bit more clear, however.

In general I have found the index to be pretty good, but I would simply say that adding as many different cross references as possible is best. When I go to the index, I'm not going to browse; the presence of many extra irrelevant entries doesn't matter in the slightest as long as the one I am looking for is there. So erring on the side of a very long but potentially redundant index is preferable.


I use the index fairly often for the off chance to find what I'm looking for, while GMing. In two sessions of the Playtest a lot of questions have come up, that we needed to look up and usually I go to the index first.
Sometimes it works, more often though it doesn't. Without the search function of the pdf a lot of our questions would've been unanswered (and even WITH the search function it doesn't always work)


I've been pretty successful with the Index. "Manipulate" and "Attended/Unattended Items" are the only two misses so far.


Spell Rolls and Spell DCs. The index says pages 290-291 is the place that we should turn to have it explained. But, as far as I can tell, 290 and 291 do not explain Spell Rolls or Spell DCs. It'd be nice to have the pages listed that actually explain those topics.


in the play test this weekend, we have to look up the following things in the index

dungeonaring - for iding the ooze
trip
Attacks of opportunity
critical effects
flanking
flat footed
invisibility
sensed
unseen
bulk
hardness
lore
poison damage


Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Spell Rolls and Spell DCs. The index says pages 290-291 is the place that we should turn to have it explained. But, as far as I can tell, 290 and 291 do not explain Spell Rolls or Spell DCs. It'd be nice to have the pages listed that actually explain those topics.

It seems as though the index's page reference is indeed correct for that entry. Spell rolls and DC fall under the umbrella of making rolls based on proficiency, which Spell rolls and Spell DC are (they appear on the larger table on page 291 at the bottom). However, I agree that it would be helpful if it was a bit more explicit.

Also, for the record, both items appear and are explained in the glossary.

Silver Crusade

My apologies, but this is a bit more generic of a suggestion than specific items.

I definitely have gone to the index many times and have come up empty handed when looking up various terms I would think should be obvious in a core rulebook index.

I think the index in general needs to be quite comprehensive and error on the side of too many entries than too few. That said, shouldn't virtually every noun and verb that's associated with specifically with core playing in PF2 be in the index? And, yes, I mean that literally, but please note I'm trying to emphasize those words that would be directly associated with PF2.

Again, I apologize for being critical without giving specifics, but I ran into index issues more often than I'd like with the book. It seems that the default was to opt for fewer entries than more.


Prethen wrote:
I think the index in general needs to be quite comprehensive and error on the side of too many entries than too few. That said, shouldn't virtually every noun and verb that's associated with specifically with core playing in PF2 be in the index? And, yes, I mean that literally, but please note I'm trying to emphasize those words that would be directly associated with PF2.

I said basically the same thing. Too many entries isn't really possible when it comes to an index.

But again, if you aren't checking the glossary as well, you should be. It would also be a good idea to put the page reference into the glossary. Not as essential of course, but it would be a big help if someone wants additional context about a term.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

... among other stuff, tried to find "holding breath" and couldn't. Was very difficult to guess where to look for relevant rules.


Poison: No general entry for poison rules. Only entries direct towards equipment. Would like an index entry for poison that directed to affliction as done in appendix 2: traits.


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Looked up "disbelieve", not there. "Illusion" got me there on second entry. First entry just a minor note under Wizards.

Maybe use bold for primary description of mechanical terms.


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Laik wrote:
... among other stuff, tried to find "holding breath" and couldn't. Was very difficult to guess where to look for relevant rules.

Me too! I tried looking for "Submerged", then "Suffocating". I eventually looked in "Rose Street Revenge" because it had an useful sidebar, and that finally led me to "Breathe Deep" in Basic actions... which then led me to Page 315... which is labeled under 'Drowning and Suffocating", which DOES have its own entry in the index.

Dark Archive

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Here's what I looked for in the index during a recent session (and whether I found it or not):

Manipulate - nope
Charge - nope
Interact - yes (lots of discussion at the table about drawing weapons and whether that is an interact action or something else)


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1. Searched the game definition of wield
2. Looked up wield and use
--Ended searching the glossary followed by a PDF search (too long) and just decided to reread the equipment chapter.


1. Do conditional bonuses stack?
2. "Conditional bonus" (not there) "bonus types" (found "bonus" and the information I needed)


Tamago wrote:
I was trying to find out how to build a multiclass character. I looked for "multiclass" and "dedication" and did not find either of those.

This. Please add multiclass to index.

Grand Lodge

1. Splash damage
2. Splash, damage

We used acid splash and realized we couldn't find the in-book definition of splash damage! We just used the 1st ed rule, but it seems like rather an important definition to be able to find. Never did find it.


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1. Splash Damage
2. Splash

Splash is in the trait section but there is nothing for splash damage


1. Curse - Missing from the index. It is listed in the trait glossary but even that entry doesn't have a referencing page number
2. Disease - Missing from the index. It is listed in the trait glossary with a page number reference, however


I was trying to determine if the fatal trait applies to precision damage dice. That is, can a rogue use a light pick to turn sneak attack dice into d8s on a critical hit. Sneak attack dice are referred to as "extra precision damage" but the fatal trait says it increases "all the weapon's damage dice." So I'm not sure if sneak attack damage counts as a weapon's damage dice.

I tried looking up "Weapon, damage" "Precision" and "Damage."

I did not find anything that definitively answered the question.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

1. Topic: Fortitude saves, calculating and wondering if there was a universal "failure" effect (outside of the specific effect calling for the save) (maybe that's a stupid question, but it's a new system and all; we wanted to be sure)
2. I initially looked up under "Fortitude" and found nothing. Then I looked up and found the relatively minimal text there was under "saving throws." I'll add that it referred to both where to put saves on the character sheet, and to a page about what saving throws actually were. I think the reference to the character sheet was unhelpful.

There's some other stuff that I've used it for, some helpful and some unhelpful, but that's the one I recall most specifically.


Antony Walls wrote:

Looked up: Charge

Not found
Quickly scanned feats: Not found
Later searched PDF: Found "Sudden Charge" for Fighter & Barbarian.

Previous ability to charge is class-locked, the player of the groups Gnome Paladin (heavy armour with a movement of 10) extressed anguish and disgust whilst his character waddled from almost fight to almost fight.

I know here may not be the best place to point it out, but any character can move twice their speed and then attack once in this system, and they don't even have to go in a straight line. Sudden Charge just gives an additional action before or after that.

As for feedback, could the PDF get hyperlinks? I am a big fan of hyperlinks in PDFs wherever possible.

Silver Crusade

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When reading the Alchemist Feat: Feral Mutagen:

Whenever you’re affected by a feral mutagen,
you gain the mutagen’s item bonus to your Intimidation checks.

Was curious what the term "feral" referred to - I assumed it referred to Bestial Mutagen, but that item did not contain any reference to the term "feral". I went to the index to see if there was an official term for "feral" and there was no reference to it. I was hoping for an entry between Feint and fey bloodline.

Silver Crusade

Used several times in PDF for some mechanics or conditions. It was the very start of playtest, and index never failed.
PDF bookmarks are often faster, so mostly use them now.


I've only used the index a couple of times (mostly because im doing an online search for the rules)

Couldn't find :
large weapon sizes (one of the players had decided to be a giant totem barbarian) I now know it to be on p91

how to calculate an items level


"Bleed" damage

It is no index or glossary, and the only explanation of it is under the 'Persistent Damage' section. By missing that one sentence in the 'Persistent Damage' section, I briefly thought Skeletons were not immune to Bleed damage.


1. Wanted to calculate the proficiency modifier, the creation rules pointed me to p. 290, I read the text and get the idea each rank has a -2, 0, 1 or 2 bonus, but something in my head says the character level has to be added (I later noticed the table in p. 291 specifies level - 2| level | etc. but the paragraphs around only talk about ranks and not level bonuses)
2. proficiencies p. 336->failure, p. 290-291->skip, p. 43->solved

------------------

1. I wanted to know what "flat-footed" meant for rogue's Surprise Attack, I checked the glossary but did not found it
2. conditions->success

------------------

1. Wanted to check the prices and bonuses for different item qualities
2. quality->fail, item->success

------------------

1. How to activate an staff?
2. staff->failure (I have now noticed there is an 'staves' entry), activation->Activate an Item->success


Checked the Index for clarity on "Ranged Touch Attacks". That is, does a Wizard casting Produce Flame use Dexterity or Intelligence? Couldn't find a definition for it in the back of the book, and the one section in the book that describes it (in the spell section) doesn't explicitly say "Use Dexterity" for spells that make ranged attacks.


1. I did not know what "Soothing Words" power meant by 'counteract one emotion effect'
2. counteract->counteracting effects->success

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Trying to figure out whether poison triggers at top or bottom of the round.

Looked up: Poison but only provided me the page for the list of alchemist poisons.


Poison is the big one, though I think there's a more fundamental issue with that. It's not very apparent that it's important you should read the Affliction section before you start playing the game, you don't really expect poison to work any differently than any other condition really. You roll a DC and if you fail the poison does a bad thing to you for a few turns, right?

Except you look at the statblock, notice that clearly something is amiss, and then fail to find the rules for it because you're looking for poison, not afflictions. So the entire game's stopped while the GM's trying to figure out how the f**% poison works.

I feel like at least the very basics of how poison works should be implied in the stat blocks. Or that maybe the digital version of the rules shouldn't be exclusively available as a PDF since it's not very well suited to searching, and that other formats should be considered like EPUB and an official online wiki. The rules require too much crossreferencing, often during play itself, and that at least is less annoying when you can click or hover over something and get an immediate answer, and then be able to copy and paste that answer without a bunch of formatting errors.


I don't know if this thread is still being looked at it cared about, but indexes are a big thing for me in general. I **LOATHED** trying to look something up in 3.5 because the index was half a page, over the copyright statement... Which tells you what _those_people_ think about an index: the only people who are going to read it are the people who are going to read the legalese, which is pretty much nobody. The only reason I haven't posted before is because Jason asked for *specific* things I looked up. So here it goes:

Item bonus, what it is and what it applies to.

The difference between circumstance bonus and conditional bonus. I tried looking up each individually and failed, and I looked in the glossary to no avail. They are defined in "bonus" on pg291. (I'm writing a small thing to sell eventually and wanted to have the correct bonus type, none really fit).

Materials - found them

This is just a sample of things I've looked for in the past 20 minutes or so. I do use the index a lot while playing, to look up spells and abilities. Not only in the core book but also in the bestiary. I don't know how many times I've read "<> Fancy attack" and I'm like... WTF does Fancy attack do? Where is it? Is it in the back with the rest of the monster Fancy attacks? [Goes and searches the back of the book in my PDF reader] nope, where is it??? Oh, it's in the stat block 2 creatures previous because it's only for this type of creature. So I just wasted 10 minutes searching for something that could have been "<> Fancy attack (pg 123)" or in the index (or both preferably). I may have seen it if I was wielding a dead tree... But then again, maybe not.

Please make the index awesome!! The trait list and glossary are good also and please keep/expand them.

Thank you all, I love the system so far!!! Please keep being awesome!!!


Looked up Knockdown as it was an ability in a module, not described.

Go Tagfinder!

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