2E's First AP


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With 2e's release approaching i was wondering what everybody's predictions are on the storyline for the first adventure path or what you hope to see as an upcoming one?


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Would love to see an official conversion for Rise of the Runelords, maybe even another Collector's Edition with the fancy book. Would love to kick off PF2E with that path.


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Alternatively would be really neat to play a Dwarf focused or Alkenstar focused Adventure Path.


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Well, it’s gonna be the first AP, so it’s gonna have to set some adventure fantasy vibes to get new players on board, and be generally accessible (Return of the Runelords would be bad, for instance). I wouldn’t expect anything themed around one of the ancestries, or somewhere as atypical as Alkenstar. (Leading with a conversion reprint would probably look bad.)

I’m not really sure what major evils we have lying around handy. The last PF1 AP will mop up The Whispering Tyrant, and we’ve addressed a lot of Runelords. Maybe addressing any remaining Runelords? We do know they’re gonna take another look at Galt, but I’d expect that more as a second or third AP.


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I'd guess something which involves Goblins both good and bad and an important alchemist or two to really show off features of the new edition.


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Goblins is also my guess. Something that gives them an option to integrate into larger society.

I’m personally about Varisa’d and Cheliax’d out, but maybe another trip to the River Kingdoms would be appropriate?


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I strongly suspect it will take place in Varisia as a nod to tradition, but River Kingdoms does sound like a reasonable second option - that would be a nod to the first PF1e AP, which would be nice.

Alternatively, Paizo could surprise us with an AP that is traditional in an entirely different sense - it's been a while since we've been to the Darklands, and an underground dungeon delve AP would be an interesting choice.


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Bardarok wrote:
I'd guess something which involves Goblins both good and bad and an important alchemist or two to really show off features of the new edition.

Would love to see something more for Goblins!


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

Goblins is also my guess. Something that gives them an option to integrate into larger society.

I’m personally about Varisa’d and Cheliax’d out, but maybe another trip to the River Kingdoms would be appropriate?

I’d expect them to just include the goblin Alchemist iconic as one of the four iconics for the AP. Then you can show a goblin adventurer in the art without making a plot point out of Inner Sea goblin relations. This also lets them display the new class and ancestry in promotional art.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Alternatively, Paizo could surprise us with an AP that is traditional in an entirely different sense - it's been a while since we've been to the Darklands, and an underground dungeon delve AP would be an interesting choice.

I'm leaning in this direction as we haven't had significant Darklands action for a while.

I agree it will likely be more "standard" fantasy as opposed to something more out there. I am leaning toward Isger or Andoran as opposed to Nidal.

OR....
With the next set of Minis including Ramzmir himself, I could see an AP that finally wrestles with the most destabilizing force in central Avistan, especially when you consider his age. He's ruled for 58 years, putting his age at aminimum of 80, 85? Pretty old for a human, and possibly older. I could see him getting desperate and lashing out, destabilizing the whole region.


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James Jacobs gave some "clues" in the latest Paizo Friday twitch stream. He said something will be set on fire, goblins may be involved, it involves a dungeon, and there is a hill they have named but not gone into detail about. (He followed this up by saying someone may be able to figure it out with those clues alone, though maybe as a joke)


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Here is a direct link to where he says it. https://m.twitch.tv/videos/382317626?t=00h41m57s&desktop-redirect=true


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Thanks for the info, Vorsk!

Linkified.


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For the reasons people have stated previously, it probably will be a fairly traditional fantasy plot and be based in Varisia. The goblins bit also makes me think Varisia (even though Isgar is more gobliny, most of the goblin stuff is set in Varisia). Although the way he said it, makes me think that it might not actually be goblins, but either something that is mistaken for goblins, or an offshoot like grindylows. The biggest detail is a known location on a hill that hasn't been detailed yet. So I'd start by looking for something that fits that.

I do have a gut feeling that it might start in Sandpoint again, partly as a callback to Rise of the Runelords, partly because it was recently covered with it's own book and partly because James Jacobs is writing and really likes the place. So maybe a hill location near there? I haven't either read that book or played Rise of the Runelords (yet, we'll do so soon) so I don't know it well enough to really guess.


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Hmmm, if goblins are to blame, River Kingdoms could be an option. Lambreth was the site of the Kingdom of Zog goblin empire, apparently there are numerous "pits, delves, and hidden cave complexes" left by their empire. There is an area called the Juviler Hills which is not really explored, and Lambreth is right on the border with Razmir, and based on things other people have said before we may see more of him soon... so this could be an option...


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And now its a challenge for me. Isger could work. Haugin's Ear could very easily be described as a hill or outcroping for the "head", and Isger has a sizable goblin "problem". Considering the legend of a dungeon or chamber underneath the "head" of Haugin, could be the site.


After seeing the preview of Pathfinder Battles: Ruins of Lastwall that examines the faith of one of Golarion's newest deities, I thought the first big bad we are going to defeat in Second Edition is none other than Razmir the Living God, because there is no way the sudden spotlight on Razmiran is not related to the newest adventure path. But considering what James Jacobs said, it seems that my assumption is simply wrong.


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QuidEst wrote:

Well, it’s gonna be the first AP, so it’s gonna have to set some adventure fantasy vibes to get new players on board, and be generally accessible (Return of the Runelords would be bad, for instance). I wouldn’t expect anything themed around one of the ancestries, or somewhere as atypical as Alkenstar. (Leading with a conversion reprint would probably look bad.)

I’m not really sure what major evils we have lying around handy. The last PF1 AP will mop up The Whispering Tyrant, and we’ve addressed a lot of Runelords. Maybe addressing any remaining Runelords? We do know they’re gonna take another look at Galt, but I’d expect that more as a second or third AP.

Maybe the Tyrant will win his AP. The Player's Guide made the campaign sound like a real downer, and it would certainly be a bold final move.


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Aenigma wrote:
After seeing the preview of Pathfinder Battles: Ruins of Lastwall that examines the faith of one of Golarion's newest deities, I thought the first big bad we are going to defeat in Second Edition is none other than Razmir the Living God, because there is no way the sudden spotlight on Razmiran is not related to the newest adventure path. But considering what James Jacobs said, it seems that my assumption is simply wrong.

Maybe not. If Vorsk is on the money with his speculation about Lambreth then it very well could be Razmir. Razmir is probably the single biggest bad in 1e that hasn't been tackled yet, so opening with that makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways.

Liberty's Edge

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Captain Morgan wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Well, it’s gonna be the first AP, so it’s gonna have to set some adventure fantasy vibes to get new players on board, and be generally accessible (Return of the Runelords would be bad, for instance). I wouldn’t expect anything themed around one of the ancestries, or somewhere as atypical as Alkenstar. (Leading with a conversion reprint would probably look bad.)

I’m not really sure what major evils we have lying around handy. The last PF1 AP will mop up The Whispering Tyrant, and we’ve addressed a lot of Runelords. Maybe addressing any remaining Runelords? We do know they’re gonna take another look at Galt, but I’d expect that more as a second or third AP.

Maybe the Tyrant will win his AP. The Player's Guide made the campaign sound like a real downer, and it would certainly be a bold final move.

They've specifically said they had him wake up as a replacement threat for the closed Worldwound. So...this is almost assured if you take 'winning' to mean 'still around and doing things'.

I expect that the campaign will be about stopping his advance, and holding him to a limited territory rather than defeating him outright. Now, I wouldn't call being successfully stalled on his plans for world domination by plucky heroes a 'victory' for the Whispering Tyrant per se, but I do suspect he'll very much be around and awake at the end of it.
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For the first PF2 AP, Razmir would be very cool, and I don't think anything in that description prevents it (especially since, listening to it, it's a description of the first book, not the whole AP). It could also easily be something else, of course...


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I'm wondering if it's possible to do all the legerdemain involve in passing off Razmir as an actual god is possible with just the core rules. Since "we have the mechanics to support this" is a big limitation on early APs. Like we're not going back to Irrisen before we have rules for witches.

Like Razmiran and Galt are things we absolutely should address in 2e APs, but the first one should probably not assume too much familiarity with the setting. Something where you start in the frontier and go in a dungeon should suffice.


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While searching Pathfinder Wiki for the word hill, ignoring hits for "hill giant" and city districts with the word "hill" (e.g. Senate Hill in Opara) I have only one entry.

Ostivai Hill "Ostivai Hill is situated in Taldor relatively close to the settlement of Adrast; on its summit is a broken down watchtower."

If you include city district "hills" it could include Garrison Hill from Korvosa (this being in Varisia) or several other "hills" in Opara, that being said we were just in Taldor for War for the Crown last spring.


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We were just in Varisa last month, so if that’s still in the running (and I believe those that say it is), I’d say no where is out of the hat.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Well, it’s gonna be the first AP, so it’s gonna have to set some adventure fantasy vibes to get new players on board, and be generally accessible (Return of the Runelords would be bad, for instance). I wouldn’t expect anything themed around one of the ancestries, or somewhere as atypical as Alkenstar. (Leading with a conversion reprint would probably look bad.)

I’m not really sure what major evils we have lying around handy. The last PF1 AP will mop up The Whispering Tyrant, and we’ve addressed a lot of Runelords. Maybe addressing any remaining Runelords? We do know they’re gonna take another look at Galt, but I’d expect that more as a second or third AP.

Maybe the Tyrant will win his AP. The Player's Guide made the campaign sound like a real downer, and it would certainly be a bold final move.

They've specifically said they had him wake up as a replacement threat for the closed Worldwound. So...this is almost assured if you take 'winning' to mean 'still around and doing things'.

I expect that the campaign will be about stopping his advance, and holding him to a limited territory rather than defeating him outright. Now, I wouldn't call being successfully stalled on his plans for world domination by plucky heroes a 'victory' for the Whispering Tyrant per se, but I do suspect he'll very much be around and awake at the end of it.
.

Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines. They could even go a step further and have the Whispering Tyrant's general plans basically be unimpeded. The victory the PCs achieve could be as simple as managing to save the lives of some chunk of the populace and slip out of the Tyrant's grasp before his power base completely solidifies. One imagines he might need some time to rebuild his army and such.


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Reading the sixth AP summary,

Spoiler:
Ol’ Whispy is shooting for cracking open the Starstone Cathedral and becoming a god
, so there is a LOT of room for “stop him” without reaching “destroy him”.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Also, he's a lich. You can stop him and still not be able to find his phylactery.


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Do we even have any idea what his phylactery is? Paizo has come up with some fairly cool phylacteries in the past and I imagine the world's most powerful lich probably has a very unique one.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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MaxAstro wrote:
Do we even have any idea what his phylactery is? Paizo has come up with some fairly cool phylacteries in the past and I imagine the world's most powerful lich probably has a very unique one.

It wasn't listed in The Dead Roads, but...

Spoiler:

Azranai's was mentioned in passing, and it was mentioned that it was warded such that she can't even find or sense it, even after rejuvenating next to it.

Personally, I'm very much suspecting that Paizo is planning for him to recover after the AP, but have to wait after losing so much gear.


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MaxAstro wrote:

I strongly suspect it will take place in Varisia as a nod to tradition, but River Kingdoms does sound like a reasonable second option - that would be a nod to the first PF1e AP, which would be nice.

The first PF1e AP was in Cheliax.


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Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
The first PF1e AP was in Cheliax.

It sort of feels like Cheliax should take a breather for a bit after the Hell's Duology, though.

I mean, we haven't had an AP set in Andoran, but we have had three in Cheliax and these two are neighbors.


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My mistake, you are correct. I started with Kingmaker, and relatively shortly after Pathfinder released, so I often forget about Council of Thieves.


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Council of Thieves gets a bad rap. But I still have nostalgic feelings about it. I loved Delvehaven. And some of the articles were top notch. I liked it.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Do we even have any idea what his phylactery is? Paizo has come up with some fairly cool phylacteries in the past and I imagine the world's most powerful lich probably has a very unique one.

For a little while, I've suspected it was something out there like the Isle of Terror (making your phylactery an entire island would be one novel way to protect it from harm). If he has some ordinary run-of-the-mill thing, it'd be something of a letdown to me.

I think Crystal Frasier dangled a kind of hint about it in one of the product discussion threads.

Sovereign Court

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I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^

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Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^

I think the Mythic softcover gave the suggestion of Urgathoa placing it in alternate universe or beyond the reach of the stars or something.


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Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^

Ah, cool. I didn’t realise it was in Gallowspire. For some reason I always assumed it was elsewhere, but it’s been so long I have no idea where I got that impression from.


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Rysky wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^
I think the Mythic softcover gave the suggestion of Urgathoa placing it in alternate universe or beyond the reach of the stars or something.

I'm still waiting for an adventure to send our heroes to the Negative Energy Plane... which would be a really good place for a phylactery, come to think of it.

Liberty's Edge

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Shadows of Gallowspire :

"And so it was that Tar-Baphon was cast from the heights of Gallowspire, his
smoldering body still clutching the sliver of the Shield of Aroden as his spirit
retreated to his phylactery somewhere far beneath the dark tower."

Dungeons of Golarion :

"But the crusaders knew that a lich could not be so easily defeated—they knew Tar-Baphon had but retreated to his phylactery, somewhere deep within Gallowspire. But their triumph had shattered the last remnants of the Whispering Tyrant’s army, and while the lich recovered deep below, the crusaders set to work above, sealing his dungeons with powerful magic and transforming his throne into his tomb."

The reference to a large obelisk seems to be to Gallowspire itself (called the terrible obelisk), though there is also a "gigantic obelisk" mentioned in the subterranean areas, but not depicted a being the famed yet elusive phylactery.

Mythic Realms :

"The Whispering Tyrant may have struck a bargain with Urgathoa to hide his phylactery somewhere even the other gods can’t find it. No magic is able to locate it or discern the means to destroy it."

The Urgathoa thing is a mere guess here.

So, they know it is within Gallowspire because the Tyrant reformed there and it cannot escape, just as the Tyrant cannot. But nobody knows what it looks like and it just cannot be found with magic.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Aenigma wrote:
After seeing the preview of Pathfinder Battles: Ruins of Lastwall that examines the faith of one of Golarion's newest deities, I thought the first big bad we are going to defeat in Second Edition is none other than Razmir the Living God, because there is no way the sudden spotlight on Razmiran is not related to the newest adventure path. But considering what James Jacobs said, it seems that my assumption is simply wrong.
Maybe not. If Vorsk is on the money with his speculation about Lambreth then it very well could be Razmir. Razmir is probably the single biggest bad in 1e that hasn't been tackled yet, so opening with that makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways.

An adventure path with Razmiran could send the party through some interesting settings around Lake Encarthan. The 1st module could take place amidst the class system and military goals of Molthune, where the party has to deal with a low-level problem that no-one in authority wants responsibility for. For the 2nd module the problem leads the party to the Kalistocracy of Druma with its secular religion obsessed with wealth. A plot hook related to the living god Razmir sends the party to elven land of Kyonin to find halfing guides. In the 4th module, the party explores Razmiran while they have the strength to stand up to the Razmiran priests of its theocracy. Their next step in the 5th module takes them to Ustalav to deal with undead beings of power. In the 6th module they double back to Razmiran to conclude the plot.

Comparing and contrasting the governments and ideologies of the five countries could lead to some strong story themes. And it would let Paizo show off a significant section of Golarion.


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I’ll be surprised if it’s Razmiran. That’s Jason Bulmahn’s baby and I’ve heard he’s kind of busy at the moment.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^
I think the Mythic softcover gave the suggestion of Urgathoa placing it in alternate universe or beyond the reach of the stars or something.
I'm still waiting for an adventure to send our heroes to the Negative Energy Plane... which would be a really good place for a phylactery, come to think of it.

There was a bit in Planar Adventures about lich phylacteries being stored on the [/i]Positive[/i] Energy Plane. Because it's even less hospitable, so hard to steal from. I think this was more the case of imprisonment than safe-keeping for the lich. Reforming there would be problematic for them. If PCs manage to capture his Phylactery, and can't destroy it. This might be where they need to stash it.

My personal theory is that his phylactery is in a box marked "Hamdingers" so that nobody ever looks inside.

Scarab Sages

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Doktor Weasel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^
I think the Mythic softcover gave the suggestion of Urgathoa placing it in alternate universe or beyond the reach of the stars or something.
I'm still waiting for an adventure to send our heroes to the Negative Energy Plane... which would be a really good place for a phylactery, come to think of it.

There was a bit in Planar Adventures about lich phylacteries being stored on the [/i]Positive[/i] Energy Plane. Because it's even less hospitable, so hard to steal from. I think this was more the case of imprisonment than safe-keeping for the lich. Reforming there would be problematic for them. If PCs manage to capture his Phylactery, and can't destroy it. This might be where they need to stash it.

My personal theory is that his phylactery is in a box marked "Hamdingers" so that nobody ever looks inside.

In the Occult Bestiary, psychic liches have as a phylactory the very legend of themselves in the Astral plane, linked to the material by a memoir. So an ultra unique powerful lich like The Whispering Tyrant could use something like this: the idea of him is his phylactory. That would be a really metal thing to have to defeat in an AP. How do you destroy an IDEA?


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Duiker wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^
I think the Mythic softcover gave the suggestion of Urgathoa placing it in alternate universe or beyond the reach of the stars or something.
I'm still waiting for an adventure to send our heroes to the Negative Energy Plane... which would be a really good place for a phylactery, come to think of it.

There was a bit in Planar Adventures about lich phylacteries being stored on the [/i]Positive[/i] Energy Plane. Because it's even less hospitable, so hard to steal from. I think this was more the case of imprisonment than safe-keeping for the lich. Reforming there would be problematic for them. If PCs manage to capture his Phylactery, and can't destroy it. This might be where they need to stash it.

My personal theory is that his phylactery is in a box marked "Hamdingers" so that nobody ever looks inside.

In the Occult Bestiary, psychic liches have as a phylactory the very legend of themselves in the Astral plane, linked to the material by a memoir. So an ultra unique powerful lich like The Whispering Tyrant could use something like this: the idea of him is his phylactory. That would be a really metal thing to have to defeat in an AP. How do you destroy an IDEA?

That would be a crazy powerful phylactory. And rather fitting for The Whispering Tyrant. The only solution seems to be to imprison him forever and try to wipe out memory of him. That's a really hard task, and one that would likely take millennia. Either that or find some Deus-ex-machina to undo the magic. If it can be done, there's probably some way of undoing it, even if it's even harder than the original creation. It'd be more like artifact destruction.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Duiker wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
I believe Dungeons of Golarion described it as a large obelisk deep below Gallowspire, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's been quietly decanonized in favor of something more awesome. ^_^
I think the Mythic softcover gave the suggestion of Urgathoa placing it in alternate universe or beyond the reach of the stars or something.
I'm still waiting for an adventure to send our heroes to the Negative Energy Plane... which would be a really good place for a phylactery, come to think of it.

There was a bit in Planar Adventures about lich phylacteries being stored on the [/i]Positive[/i] Energy Plane. Because it's even less hospitable, so hard to steal from. I think this was more the case of imprisonment than safe-keeping for the lich. Reforming there would be problematic for them. If PCs manage to capture his Phylactery, and can't destroy it. This might be where they need to stash it.

My personal theory is that his phylactery is in a box marked "Hamdingers" so that nobody ever looks inside.

In the Occult Bestiary, psychic liches have as a phylactory the very legend of themselves in the Astral plane, linked to the material by a memoir. So an ultra unique powerful lich like The Whispering Tyrant could use something like this: the idea of him is his phylactory. That would be a really metal thing to have to defeat in an AP. How do you destroy an IDEA?
That would be a crazy powerful phylactory. And rather fitting for The Whispering Tyrant. The only solution seems to be to imprison him forever and try to wipe out memory of him. That's a really hard task, and one that would likely take millennia. Either that or find some Deus-ex-machina to undo the magic. If it can be done, there's probably some way of undoing it, even if it's even harder than the original creation. It'd be more like artifact destruction.

This is now my head cannon for why the gap happened in Starfinder. The WT got so powerful the gods had to delete the planet and gut a millenia of people's memories to destroy him.

Liberty's Edge

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The theory is nice, but the WT reappeared within Gallowspire, not on the Astral plane.

I want the WT to animate and possess the body of Aroden someday. So I hope Tar-Baphon will still be unalive and kicking after the last PF1 AP ends :-P


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I think the WT is safe until we come up with another "this region is inherently dangerous and uncomfortably close to major population centers" to replace whatever realm of undeath Lastwall is going to become. I figure this would happen at the absolute earliest midway through PF2's lifespan, since he's coming back largely as a replacement for the Worldwound as a "scary place for high level characters only."

Scarab Sages

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The Raven Black wrote:

The theory is nice, but the WT reappeared within Gallowspire, not on the Astral plane.

I want the WT to animate and possess the body of Aroden someday. So I hope Tar-Baphon will still be unalive and kicking after the last PF1 AP ends :-P

I think it still works, because the psychic lich "legend" phylactory is anchored to the material plane with a memoir often in the form of a book. Unless the legend is destroyed in the astral plane, the memoir reconstructs itself amongst other books in a library. So there's a book somewhere in the Gallowspire amongst many others ... in any case, I'm sure the Whispering Tyrant is going to be uniquely built for story purposes, and they could certainly go this route if it's the story they wanted to tell.


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Well, if the phylactery is "the legend of the thing" then perhaps that's what the Anaphexia are really up to, they just can't disclose this or let people out of their group with the ability to spill the beans (hence the tongue removal).

Dark Archive

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The Obelisk in Gallowspire isn't the phylactery, its essentially his spellbook <_<

Sovereign Court

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I haven't read it in years, so I'm surprised I even remembered that it was there. ^_^

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