Call for Feedback: The Index


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Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Hey there all,

When using the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, did you use the Index in the back of the book? If so, did you find what you are looking for?

If now, please let us know in this thread so that we can be sure that the final index meets your needs.

Want to help, here is how:
1. Post the topic you were trying to search for in the Index.
2. Post the words you used to try and find that topic.

This thread is only for posting up specific index issues. Comments and discussions should be reserved for other threads and will be removed if posted here.

Thank you for taking part in the Pathfinder Playtest.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
When using the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, did you use the Index in the back of the book? If so, did you find what you are looking for?

I haven't used it much. I think I did look up what page Conditions were on at one point, which I found easily in the Index under Conditions. I have been using the PDF bookmarks and the edge-of-page chapter markings much more often. The book also calls out page numbers in the text if I run across something while reading.

I think I have referenced the glossary and other appendices more than the index so far.


I did use the index.

1a. conversation rate for coins
2a. I used coins to search.

1b. multi-attack in reference to tiger slash
2. I used the words mutli-attack

3a. we needed to look up the dying rules
3b. we used dying

4. we wanted to look up maneuvers, we forgot that they were athletics
4b. we used the word maneuvers

Silver Crusade

I tried to look up identifying monsters and used “identify.”


Index could use a little work. Ty for posting this.

Most recent one.

1. Looking for the difference between the different levels of skills, trained, untrained, expert, etc.
2. "Skills", "Trained", "Untrained", "Expert" , "Legendary", "Skill Level"

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Used index a lot. Some of the words I could remember checking for were "death/dying", "hero points" a few condition names like "fatigued", critical specialization, "break obejcts" ("break open" was what i actually needed), "damaging items" (search fail), "cover", "concealment".


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I've used the Index a good number of times and in general it's been helpful.

It has failed a couple of times, the one that comes to mind was when I searched for Heightened.


1. "Manipulate trait"
2. "Manipulate", "traits", "somatic casting action"


I've used it to look up exact definitions for crits, resonance points, starting items above first levek, and a few other things that I now forget. It wasn't bad.


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What drives me bonkers is when I look up something like AC and it tell me to "see Armor Class".

Why not just give the page number, why force me to look up a new entry? Giving me the page number there and then doesn't take up any more room, it adds no more lines to the length of the rule book.

For example
AC (Armor Class) 16-17, 176, 292
Armor Class (AC) 16-17, 176, 292
DC (Difficulty Class) 8, 291–292, 336–338
Difficulty Class (DC) 8, 291–292, 336–338
fumble (critical failure) 292
critical failure 292
GM (Game Master) 5, 6, 9
Game Master (GM) 5, 6, 9
HP (Hit Points) 9, 14, 22, 42–43, 294–296
Hit Points (HP) 9, 14, 22, 42–43, 294–296
NPC (nonplayer character) 10
nonplayer character (NPC) 10
TAC (Touch Armor Class) 16, 176, 292
Touch Armor Class (TAC) 16, 176, 292
traps (hazards) 341–343
hazards 341–343
XP (Experience Points) 5, 278, 339
Experience Points (XP) 5, 278, 339

The following aren't so bad, so may be worth keeping as is
combat (see encounter mode)
items (see equipment)


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'Unarmed Defense' -- not listed. Had to search the PDF.
'Retraining' -- found the entry.
'Quick' -- found under 'quick (condition)'
'Archetypes' -- found the entry.

All in all, it's been pretty thorough.


Skill increase. I still haven't found the text for the limits of master and legendary.


My index searches have been critical specialization, hero points, ritual, signature skill, stance, and wand. Mostly, I knew a word from the previews, the forums, or a reference in another rule, and I wanted to read up on the full details. Thus, I had no mismatch between the topic and the indexed word.

Usually I check the Table of Contents first. However, a few rules, such as Hero Points, are not listed in the Table of Contents.


1.
Fortune and misfortune does not show up in the index. Found it much later and I was looking for it because of some box that explained what it was but not how you got it.
2.
Looked for Fortune, Misfortune, Luck and such words.

I was assuming that it was some kinda advantage/disadvantage mechanic that you could generate on a consistent basis. Since it is not I'm thinking that you thought no one would try to look for it?

1.
I looked for keywords. For various reasons though I think I was looking for fortune again.

2.
Keywords I guess? I can't quite remember but it doesn't seem to be there anyway.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Freder1ck wrote:
Skill increase. I still haven't found the text for the limits of master and legendary.

That's under Skill Increases in your class advancement table.

I used the index to find the Interact and Drop actions.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I was trying to find the table listing the conversions for gp/sp/cp/etc.
Looked under "money" and "currency", but did not find it listed there.

I did successfully use the index to find Conditions and Grapple, among other things.


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I had trouble finding out whether the monk's default unarmed attack (the fist?) used Dex as its ability modifier bonus. I presumed this because Dexterity is one of the monk's possible Key Ability scores, but could not find confirmation. I found an entry for unarmed attacks, and I found the unarmed trait next to the weapons tables, but not the answer to my question. It was only when I realized that the monk class feature's reference to a "fist" meant that I should look at the equipment chapter and scan the weapons table.

Not entirely an index issue, but a problem with finding what should be basic information. For people brand new to PF2 who go straight to the monk section, this key information is WAY too hard to find.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Persistent damage, found it
Bleed, didn't find it
manipulate, didn't find it


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My group and I reference the index frequently

-trying to search for what spell rolls are
-Found 'spells, roll & DC's', which lead to a table but didn't actually explain anything about what spell rolls are or how to use them (eventually found a little more info in the Wizard class section)

-Trying to find attack roll breakdowns for ranged and melee
-Looked under 'attack', 'melee', 'ranged', before remembering that they're called Strikes; looked under Strike which lead to the Strike paragraph which pointed to another page with the info I needed

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Reeds, didn't find it
Difficult Terrain, found it, however it should also list 340, for the terrain section.


Bolster, Conditions, Spell DC, Spell Roll, Class DC, Flat-Footed, Proficiency Modifier, Healing (Recovery), Rest, Recovery, Regaining HP, Resonance, Invested, Expert Weapon (Weapon Quality, Non-Standard Weapons, Higher Quality Weapons), Cantrips, Dents, Repair, Flank/Flanking, Travel Speed (Speed, Overland Speed).

These are the most common ones I can think of that I've had to look up. All in all they were relatively easy to find in the Index but I found the Traits and Glossary Appendices far more useful than the Index itself. Usually the Index would take me to an entry in the book that was far more convoluted than the Glossary or Trait entry - especially when I was looking to verify a calculation like Spell DC or the like.

Sovereign Court

I used the index a lot more often than other RPG line rulebooks.

Resonance, bolstered, Flat Check, Dents, and skills (signature) are keywords I've had to look up nearly every time I use them; their position in the book feels unintuitive to me.

dying, Bulk, familiars, conditions, multiple attack penalty, and alchemical items are other keywords I can remember looking up once or twice.

signature skills is the only item I had trouble finding in the index at first, until I realized it was under "skills, signature"

The traits and glossary are super useful, but some key items I'd expect to find there (Dent and Bolstered are the two that come to mind) are missing. Others (like signature skill) are defined but could use a page number for extra clarification.

When I first read the Cleric entry, I had trouble finding domain powers because "Domains" is indexed back to the class entry and "Domain Powers" does not exist in the Glossary or Index.


I searched there for Flat-footed, Conditions, dying, poison. I'm using the PDF so some of the searches where skipped thanks to the sidebar bookmarks.


I've used the Index quite a bit, can't recall all the things I've looked up thus far. Things I have looked up that I remember were...

initiative
magic items-activation

Two Weapon fighting (did not find it)
XP (sent to a reference)
leveling up

I can't recall all the things I looked up, but I do remember one BIG thing I looked up that related to skills and their usages which led me to page 337.

Unfortunately I cannot recall the exact things I looked up as that was early on when I first had the playtest (it was actually one the very first things I looked up in the index).


Used it for resonance and dying. Resonance was ok, dying is a bit over the place, but that is not due to the index but the various references to recovery checks, and then the DC table.

Liberty's Edge

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So far the only issue I've had with the index was searching for Class DC. It doesn't list it under DC or Difficulty Class. It is technically found under class, but the listing for class is the entire class section and the relevant info was under the title Key Ability, so the relevant information was a little hard to track down.


GreyWolfLord wrote:

I've used the Index quite a bit, can't recall all the things I've looked up thus far. Things I have looked up that I remember were...

initiative
magic items-activation

Two Weapon fighting (did not find it)
XP (sent to a reference)
leveling up

I can't recall all the things I looked up, but I do remember one BIG thing I looked up that related to skills and their usages which led me to page 337.

Unfortunately I cannot recall the exact things I looked up as that was early on when I first had the playtest (it was actually one the very first things I looked up in the index).

Pretty much the same for me. Things I remember looking up:

- Shield Block (found it)

- Hardness, and its dependence on material (found both)

- Some specific feats (found them)

- Class DC (technically found it, but the rulebook didn't help. But I was just looking for confirmation that it should be calculated like all the other DCs. Fortunatly, the character sheet confirmed this.)

- Archetypes (found it, but the index could use an entry for "multiclassing")

- dying (found it)

- conditions, in general (found it)

- Two-weapon fighting (didn't find it, but does not exist in that sense anymore)

- arcane spell failure/penalty for casting in armor (didn't find it, but does not exist anymore)

- unarmored proficiency (much like class DC, I found it but not what I was looking for, namely the default rank. But that is clear by now)

Overall, I used it mostly to find the page of things I already knew existed. I think I found everything that I was looking for that was actually in the book. I don't know if it's necessary that every feat is listed in the index, that might result in a lot of bloat in the final version.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I was trying to find out how to build a multiclass character. I looked for "multiclass" and "dedication" and did not find either of those.

Eventually I found it under "archetypes".


Due to phone pdf reader being unable to "Search" I use the index all the time when I use the phone.

Generally can find what I'm looking for except specific occasions (can't remember them off the top of my mind, but I will keep an eye open if it happens again and let you guys know)


Jumping : Not Found
Movement : Not Found


I searched for "bombs" and "thrown" which weren't in the index.

I searched for "encumbrance" and found "encumbered" which lead me indirectly to what I needed.

I searched for "flat check" and found it


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1. Bombs and throwing rules/modifiers.
2. Bomb, throwing, Alchemist, alchemy, formulas, thrown, throwing, weapons, attack bonus, combat

Specifically what bombs to add to alchemist formulas and if there is str/dex added to throwing a bomb. Spent ~1 hour to realize bomb is now an item trait and not an item called "bomb" and I THINK throwing counts as ranged and ranged=dex.

-------------------------------------------

1. Hit points modified by con?
2. Hit points,constitution.

Resolved.

------------------------------------
1. Spell points clarification
2. Spell points, spells, points,

Took some searching, do not remember keyword which resolved.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Freder1ck wrote:
Skill increase. I still haven't found the text for the limits of master and legendary.
That's under Skill Increases in your class advancement table.

Yes, that's where skill increases are listed. What I haven't found is where it says you can't increase a skill to master until 7th level. Or legendary until 15th...


Retraining: Found, but there's no way to retrain ability scores
Coup de grace: Not found, has it been removed?
Concentrate: (the tag). Found Concentration and Concentrate on a spell. Neither were helpful. In addition, ctrl+f is useless here.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Freder1ck wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Freder1ck wrote:
Skill increase. I still haven't found the text for the limits of master and legendary.
That's under Skill Increases in your class advancement table.
Yes, that's where skill increases are listed. What I haven't found is where it says you can't increase a skill to master until 7th level. Or legendary until 15th...

Yes, it says all that under Skill Increases. Are you not seeing the second paragraph, or do you not think it answers your question?

Classes wrote:

Skill Increases

At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, most classes grant a skill increase, though rogues gain them earlier and more often. Your character can use this skill increase to either become trained in one skill in which she’s untrained or become an expert in one skill in which she’s already trained.

If you are at least 7th level, you can use this increase to become a master in a signature skill in which you’re already an expert. If you are at least 15th level, you can use this increase to become legendary in a signature skill in which you’re already a master.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Yes, it says all that under Skill Increases. Are you not seeing the second paragraph, or do you not think it answers your question?

Thank you, found it. I was leveling a character for Doomsday Dawn, and I saw the table and the various headings after that. I missed the level-by-level breakdown following that (because I was adding a mass of increases and feats at a time). The level breakdown does make sense by introducing new players to concepts gradually.


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1) Conditions needs to be at the BACK OF THE BOOK where you can find them fast, not buried in the middle. During the centipede battle, I had something like four conditions on me at once and every time I had to search for the conditions section using the index before I could even figure out what the conditions on me did.

2) The problem is less the index than the nested rules. Throughout the books, rules constantly reference other rules without summarizing them, forcing you to go look up something else to understand what you're looking at.

3) A good example of the problem came when one of us became restrained. We had to look in the index to find "restrained" in the conditions in the middle of the book, but when we read restrained, we learned that "restrained" also imparted the "immobile" and "flat-footed" conditions--but without mentioning what the effects of those two conditions are--so we had to go on an easter egg hunt to understand what the hell was happening to the character exactly. It took a long time at the table when we should've been playing the game. In the example of restrained, a quick parenthetical could summarize the relevant modifiers imparted by flat-footed & immobile.

4) As a general note, why do rule mechanics and dry modifiers always have to be buried in paragraphs instead of highlighted by bullet points? Bullet points are super quick to take in with a glance. Paragraphs require you to sit and stare and read the whole damn thing before you can understand.

5) The best addition to the index would be using BOLD on entries with multiple page references to indicate the most important entry among the several, or the place where the term/rule is best defined. When one looks up Difficulty Class (DC) or Downtime, the game is guaranteed to stop because there are so many separate page references there. Use BOLD to tell me where to begin.


Did not see attack in index.


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Yolande d'Bar wrote:

1) Conditions needs to be at the BACK OF THE BOOK where you can find them fast, not buried in the middle. During the centipede battle, I had something like four conditions on me at once and every time I had to search for the conditions section using the index before I could even figure out what the conditions on me did.

2) The problem is less the index than the nested rules. Throughout the books, rules constantly reference other rules without summarizing them, forcing you to go look up something else to understand what you're looking at.

3) A good example of the problem came when one of us became restrained. We had to look in the index to find "restrained" in the conditions in the middle of the book, but when we read restrained, we learned that "restrained" also imparted the "immobile" and "flat-footed" conditions--but without mentioning what the effects of those two conditions are--so we had to go on an easter egg hunt to understand what the hell was happening to the character exactly. It took a long time at the table when we should've been playing the game. In the example of restrained, a quick parenthetical could summarize the relevant modifiers imparted by flat-footed & immobile.

4) As a general note, why do rule mechanics and dry modifiers always have to be buried in paragraphs instead of highlighted by bullet points? Bullet points are super quick to take in with a glance. Paragraphs require you to sit and stare and read the whole damn thing before you can understand.

5) The best addition to the index would be using BOLD on entries with multiple page references to indicate the most important entry among the several, or the place where the term/rule is best defined. When one looks up Difficulty Class (DC) or Downtime, the game is guaranteed to stop because there are so many separate page references there. Use BOLD to tell me where to begin.

This is my biggest issue. You look up a spell to see what it does and you are given a few keywords/conditions. So you look up what they do and they send to other conditions/keywords. So you've flipped through a dozen pages to JUST figure out a single spell... It gets tiring.

So to answer the OP question, I can find most things using the index but it often feels like each use can quickly turn into a scavenger hunt.


1) Monster Identification
2) Recall Knowledge, Identification, checked the bestiary.


I wanted to look Hero Points up. Stupidly, I went for the glossary instead of the index. Duh. Score one for the index, nevertheless.


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Use the index regularly, had a few misses I can't yet recall.
The worst were those GM topics that could as easily have been in the CRB, but were instead in the Bestiary.

Would like a master list for non-feat, non-spell combat actions in the appendix, essentially a chart w/ columns re: number of actions, type, proficiency used, proficiency minimum, and page reference. Right now with them scattered, they're hard to peruse to choose or to check if they provoke.
And a similar one for exploration mode too perhaps.
And if there's room, a basic reminder of effects would aid.


looking for: list of actions (a player asked if the old 5-foot-step is still a thing)
searched for in index: "actions" -> p.7, p.296
did i find it there?: no.

the list was actually located on p.307-309 under the "basic actions" header. looking back to the index now that i'd found it anyway also showed it was there as a separate entry.

consider adding "basic actions" to the "actions" subsection along with the "reading action entries" entry that's already there.


Throwing, throw Not in the index so I looked up:
Strike: 305, 308. Page 305 doesn't have anything. 308 said, See Ranged Strike on page 17, which brought up the Thrown trait
Thrown Also not in the index, so I looked up
Weapons: 178-183 (although now that I know it's a trait, it'll be easier).

Multiclass: Not found.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:


1. Post the topic you were trying to search for in the Index.
2. Post the words you used to try and find that topic.

1. A list of action types that a player can do on their turn.

2. Actions

No. I did not find what I was looking for.

Sovereign Court

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Spell Points.
Could not locate them in index.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

We've used the index a lot. Especially (but not exclusively) for common terms where a Search in the PDF finds 80+ instances of the word.

Some that we struggled with:

Bleed damage

One of the blogs gave an example of Stealth where it indicated PF2 played with Critical Success and Critical Failure to adjust probabilities, so that when the group Sneaks, you might need to Succeed before you Critical Fail (for example). I've yet to encounter anything that indicates this exists in PF2 - looked in the Index for Complex Skill Checks, Stealth, Probability.

related...How to do Group skill checks - not found, no idea if this is a concept in PF2 or not (i.e. does each PC roll Stealth and someone is guaranteed to roll low? Or is there a mechanic to roll for the group as a single entity?) also tried Shared Task, Stealth, Sneaking, Opposed Checks

A specific "_____ Lore" skill granted by a Background - took me several minutes before I figured out this was covered by the "Lore" skill entry

Wealth by Level, Expected Wealth/Expected Treasure, Character Wealth

"Flat-footed, causes of" i.e. What (by default) causes a creature to be flat-footed? The flat-footed condition described the effect, but I couldn't find anything that directed me to a simple list of what situations, by default, do or do not cause the flat-footed condition. (I know, there are a lot of situational items for this; but even doing Search on the PDF, some terms have so many instances that you can't find the info you need. In cases like that, there should be a quick summary somewhere, and a listing in the Index.

Static Skill Checks (check DCs that don't ramp up with PC level, such as climbing a ladder)- can be found by Searching the PDF for "Ordinary skill check" (which isn't an intuitive phrase to me), not found in the index as far as I can tell.

-----

Also, the Conditions reference section should be in the back of the book, alongside the Traits and Index.


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While reading through the book today, I kept finding references to changing your grip on a weapon. Changing your grip is not in the index. One of the descriptions then said that it was part of the Interact action, and so I figured it out that way, but that was purely accidental.

(And the Interact action itself does not mention changing your grip.)


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Looked up: Charge
Not found
Quickly scanned feats: Not found
Later searched PDF: Found "Sudden Charge" for Fighter & Barbarian.

Previous ability to charge is class-locked, the player of the groups Gnome Paladin (heavy armour with a movement of 10) extressed anguish and disgust whilst his character waddled from almost fight to almost fight.


1. Is Perception a signature skill for some classes/backgrounds, as it has proficiency levels?

2. Perception, signature, skills

Somewhat resolved. Realized perception is not a "skill" in 2E, but it does have proficiency levels. Went to forums for answer.

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