So, this is a question more for the other GM's out there. How many free actions do you consider to be reasonable and allow players to take each round?
My thoughts are that between 3-4 sound about right, but many players complain that they should get 8-10 or some other ridiculously high sounding number.
Am I being too conservative with only allowing 3-4, or is that within the realm of reason?
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There is no unreasonable number of free actions, just unreasonable players.
The problem doesn't lie with the actions, or the number of them; it has to do with players attempting shenanigans.
This is unfortunately best handled in a case by case basis.
My example to anyone who tries to impose a hard blanket limit is this: one of the viable free actions listed is talking, but an unreasonable player could effectively filibuster the game by never shutting up. One free action shuts everything down. One.
Just tell your players to be reasonable.
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I am with Maezer , not all free actions are equal. I would let an archer have as many free actions as he needed to shoot, talk (as much as I allow any other pc) and then drop his bow at the end of the round could be 8+ free actions.
I would not allow someone to fast mount and dismount from a mount more than once as that makes no sense to me. Judge each set of actions on its own merits and try to be consistent. Or set your low limit and specifically exempt free actions to reload during a full attack, if you don't feel comfortable with making judgements on each situation.
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Just adjudicate it on a case by case basis. The "GM may need to set a limit" language in the FAQ is to give you explicit permission to put the kibosh on anything you feel is abusive, but anything non-abusive should be fine.
Even if it's ridiculous (a character with the "Stand up" rogue talent dropping prone with a free action, then standing up with a free action, repeat, possibly using this to load a gastraphetes as a free action with appropriate feat) if it makes the game more fun, it's fine.
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I personally like the idea of a skilled rider and mount pulling quick maneuvers to simultaneously fight multiple people at once. I also just generally disagree that its more unreasonable to quickly mount and dismount multiple times in six seconds than it is draw and shoot multiple arrows.
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The rules don't require you to adjudicate it as a limit based on total # of free actions.
The type of free actions involved can be just as important, equally so the repetition of any given action.
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I agree with the sentiment that it's not the number but the actual actions being taken that matter, and more importantly that you use limits to prevent shenanigans.
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Telling your archer they can only draw ammunition 3 or 4 times when they can shoot 6+ times is going to annoy them quite a bit.
Drawing an arrow is no free action but part of the attack:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
The way I rule it is that, with the exception of drawing a weapon, you can cannot take multiples of the same free action in a round.
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Drawing an arrow and nocking an arrow are different things.
When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
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The way I rule it is that, with the exception of drawing a weapon, you can cannot take multiples of the same free action in a round.
Sorry gunslingers... I jest of course, but I do really think that that's a kind of weird way to do things.
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So, this is a question more for the other GM's out there. How many free actions do you consider to be reasonable and allow players to take each round?
My thoughts are that between 3-4 sound about right, but many players complain that they should get 8-10 or some other ridiculously high sounding number.
Am I being too conservative with only allowing 3-4, or is that within the realm of reason?
Quickdrawing thrown weapons with rapid shot and maxed out TWFing = 8 free actions by itself. Now add dropping an item, like a light source, and speaking and you're up to the TOP of your "ridiculously high sounding number". So, really, I'd call 3-4 "ridiculously" low sounding...
As others have said, is you REALLY wish to limit free actions then put a limit on TYPES of free actions. That 3-4 number seems like a fine number on a type of free action as long as you ignore ANY limit on those associated with an attack, like quickdraw/loading.
The way I rule it is that, with the exception of drawing a weapon, you can cannot take multiples of the same free action in a round.
So you wouldn't allow dropping 2 items in a round? Prepare spell components to cast a spell? [you know like a quickened and normal spell]?
How about this solution:
Archery/Thrown weapons: with a single free action you can draw as many arrows/thrown weapons as your number of attacks each round.
This could simulate the advanced weapon training implied by more attacks per round from BAB, feats, etc..., and would still allow me to keep the # of total free actions available fairly limited to prevent shenanigans, but not completely screw over ranged builds.
I just don't really think its a problem until you make it one. Most people aren't trying to abuse free actions, and abusing free actions isn't really disruptive either, I have yet to see a person who has made a free action heavy build that turned out significantly better than a standard build.
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I was recently asked this very question by one of my players. I said, 3-4 actions are reasonable. I would qualify that now by saying 3-4 types of actions are what I meant based on reading this thread.
Sure, an archer can 'reload' as many times as they have shots. Yes, I'd probably limit dismounting and mounting to maybe twice each in a single round. I also limit the amount of talking someone can do in that time.
So it does matter what type of action they're doing, and whether or not they're trying to take advantage of loopholes in the rules (weapon cord gunslingers to increase shots per round come to mind).
But I agree with derpdidruid, it's almost never a real problem.
How about this solution:
Archery/Thrown weapons: with a single free action you can draw as many arrows/thrown weapons as your number of attacks each round.This could simulate the advanced weapon training implied by more attacks per round from BAB, feats, etc..., and would still allow me to keep the # of total free actions available fairly limited to prevent shenanigans, but not completely screw over ranged builds.
Even with that, you're looking a an unreasonable number with 3-4.
An tiefling alchemist is dragging treasure out of someplace and gets ambushed.
He drops the treasure he's carrying: 2 free actions.
Yells out: free action
Drops concentration on his extract [say Seek Thoughts]: free action
Drinks Alchemical Allocation: Standard, swift and free actions [cast, tail draw, spit]
There is 5 free actions and nothing special, high level or "shenanigans". You are better off tracking down and house ruling "shenanigans" away that making a hard limit on free actions IMO. Limiting free actions do less to limit "shenanigans" and do more to frustrate players from doing normally easy actions by setting an artificial limit. If a free action is an issue, put a limit on THAT actions not all free actions.
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Number of times I've tracked free actions: 0
Number of times a free action has derailed a game: 0
A wise man once said, "Sometimes it's best to let those hard-to-reach chips go."
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I also limit the amount of talking someone can do in that time.
Already done. "In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."
(weapon cord gunslingers to increase shots per round come to mind).
Weapon cords are swift actions, not free.
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Weapon cords have been errata-ed to move actions.(weapon cord gunslingers to increase shots per round come to mind).Weapon cords are swift actions, not free.
Which book has that? I just check the PRD [APG] and it's swift there.
PS: Shows how often I use a weapon cord...
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Source.
Ah, it was FAQ'd. I see, that makes sense then. I think I put it out of my mind since it was to be updated in the next update and that's been 4 years ago.
LOL I guess I should have gone to an unofficial source for the correct write up like archives of nethys or d20pfsrd. ;)
So, this is a question more for the other GM's out there. How many free actions do you consider to be reasonable and allow players to take each round?
My thoughts are that between 3-4 sound about right, but many players complain that they should get 8-10 or some other ridiculously high sounding number.
Am I being too conservative with only allowing 3-4, or is that within the realm of reason?Quickdrawing thrown weapons with rapid shot and maxed out TWFing = 8 free actions by itself. Now add dropping an item, like a light source, and speaking and you're up to the TOP of your "ridiculously high sounding number". So, really, I'd call 3-4 "ridiculously" low sounding...
As others have said, is you REALLY wish to limit free actions then put a limit on TYPES of free actions. That 3-4 number seems like a fine number on a type of free action as long as you ignore ANY limit on those associated with an attack, like quickdraw/loading.
The way I rule it is that, with the exception of drawing a weapon, you can cannot take multiples of the same free action in a round.So you wouldn't allow dropping 2 items in a round? Prepare spell components to cast a spell? [you know like a quickened and normal spell]?
Yeah, I knew that there were a couple of others, like dropping and loading, but I could not remember what they were when I posted.
Prepping components is not a separate action, like drawing an arrow, but part of the action of casting.
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There is no unreasonable number of free actions, just unreasonable players.
The problem doesn't lie with the actions, or the number of them; it has to do with players attempting shenanigans.
This is unfortunately best handled in a case by case basis.
My example to anyone who tries to impose a hard blanket limit is this: one of the viable free actions listed is talking, but an unreasonable player could effectively filibuster the game by never shutting up. One free action shuts everything down. One.
Just tell your players to be reasonable.
Strangled player says what? Oh right nothing because hes being strangled.
How about this solution:
Archery/Thrown weapons: with a single free action you can draw as many arrows/thrown weapons as your number of attacks each round.This could simulate the advanced weapon training implied by more attacks per round from BAB, feats, etc..., and would still allow me to keep the # of total free actions available fairly limited to prevent shenanigans, but not completely screw over ranged builds.
What are the shenanigans exactly? You want to stop them, but haven't named any so far, you just seem to want arbitrarily impose a limitation where no limitation is necessary.
Prepping components is not a separate action, like drawing an arrow, but part of the action of casting.
The rules disagree. PRD, core rulebook under list of free actions: "Prepare spell components to cast a spell". It's much like loading a bow, it's own independent action.
I don't want to arbitrarily impose anything, hence the question seeking advice from other GM's. And it's a simple question, IMO. How many do you consider to be "reasonable"?
So far, the majority answer seems to be "however many the PC needs to do whatever he wants on a round-by-round, or action-by-action basis, so don't worry about it", but very few actual numbers.
Perhaps I'll just invent a number, like 4+ number of attacks per round or something.
Anyways, thanks to those who tried to help.
You could just make up a new action type say combat free actions and non-combat free action and limit the non-combat free actions.
"however many the PC needs to do whatever he wants on a round-by-round, or action-by-action basis, so don't worry about it", but very few actual numbers.
Well, that's because I imagine most people posting here just don't think a limit is necessary. You don't really add much, if anything, by limiting free actions. The only ways to abuse free actions have been patched out of the game so I don't see a problem.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Take as many free actions as you like.
But
If you give a speech as after action I'll cut you off around 6 seconds in it.
If you do something I don't think is right (shenanigans), I'll use free action limiting if free actions are enabing the problem.
If it's cool shenanigans like full stacking one foe who drops then fast mount dismount to continue full attack on another foe opposite side of your mount I'll high five you.
I don't want to arbitrarily impose anything, hence the question seeking advice from other GM's. And it's a simple question, IMO. How many do you consider to be "reasonable"?
So far, the majority answer seems to be "however many the PC needs to do whatever he wants on a round-by-round, or action-by-action basis, so don't worry about it", but very few actual numbers.Perhaps I'll just invent a number, like 4+ number of attacks per round or something.
Anyways, thanks to those who tried to help.
Question time. Why are your pcs asking for the limit on free actions?
Until you get a Barbarian sheathing and drawing his weapon 374 times a round, or someone monologue-ing, there should 0 limit on free actions.
I don't want to arbitrarily impose anything,... Perhaps I'll just invent a number,
Isn't that what "arbitrarily impose" means?
Seriously, why is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" unsatisfactory? If the game's running smoothy and people are having fun, the answer to "how many are `reasonable'?" is "at least this many." If things aren't running smoothly, then everyone will know that it's a problem. At that point, with a good group, you won't need to "invent" anything as the players will realize things need to be scaled back.
I don't want to arbitrarily impose anything, hence the question seeking advice from other GM's. And it's a simple question, IMO. How many do you consider to be "reasonable"?
So far, the majority answer seems to be "however many the PC needs to do whatever he wants on a round-by-round, or action-by-action basis, so don't worry about it", but very few actual numbers.Perhaps I'll just invent a number, like 4+ number of attacks per round or something.
Anyways, thanks to those who tried to help.Question time. Why are your pcs asking for the limit on free actions?
Until you get a Barbarian sheathing and drawing his weapon 374 times a round, or someone monologue-ing, there should 0 limit on free actions.
...
Gun Twirling can let you do it.
Why a Barbarian would have Gun Twirling is another question altogether, but *shrugs*.
I don't want to arbitrarily impose anything, hence the question seeking advice from other GM's. And it's a simple question, IMO. How many do you consider to be "reasonable"?
So far, the majority answer seems to be "however many the PC needs to do whatever he wants on a round-by-round, or action-by-action basis, so don't worry about it", but very few actual numbers.Perhaps I'll just invent a number, like 4+ number of attacks per round or something.
Anyways, thanks to those who tried to help.
Seriously, why don't you explain *why* you need a hard number? It matters. You are doing the equivalent of asking "how often do I need to fill up my car?" with no other information about the circumstances given. You want an answer to your "simple" question? The answer is simply "it depends". Don't like it? Give us some background information so we aren't stuck answering an incredibly vague question with horrific consequences if we are too conservative in our answer.
As a hard number, probably limit it to 50. It'd require some sort of shenanigan to reach that high. No less than 25. Players doing normal things shouldn't ever need to worry about this cap.
Wait, there's a Quick Stow?
the search feature is your friend:
previous discussion of free action limits
If you give a speech as after action I'll cut you off around 6 seconds in it."I only have a few seconds before it's too late" *about 2 min later* "So close, almost done, sooo clooose! This reminds me of that other time when... "
Me and my group really likes distorting space and time.
Meh, it's a standard trope in the literature, and especially in the film. How often have we seen a timer counting down and the last thirty seconds on the timer take at least a minute and a half of action sequence on the actual screen?
Mixed Combat. Psionics feat requires BAB+6, can sheath as a free action. I had a player that would roll intimidate checks (standard action) by putting away and drawing his weapon an absurd number of times.
Mixed Combat. Psionics feat requires BAB+6, can sheath as a free action. I had a player that would roll intimidate checks (standard action) by putting away and drawing his weapon an absurd number of times.
Oh, non-Paizo stuff.
Ask your GM and close thread.