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I feel like arguing over in game explanations and lore for game mechanics is just asking to get lost in the weeds. Keep it in mind, but don't dismiss things just because there's no P1e explanation for a rule.
I dismiss Resonance because as a game mechanic it's either restrictive or pointless, has far reaching negative consequences, and was introduced to solve two things I never thought were a problem (Charisma's strength and CLW wand usage). That it doesn't make sense to be able to accept a spell from a friend but not drink a potion is secondary.
It's important to keep in mind that, while you personally might not have an issue with something, your experiences are not universal experiences. While you might not think that Charisma's relevance in magic is an issue, a lot of people in here believe that it doesn't have strong relevance to casting outside of being a specific casting stat (with some people even going as far to suggest that Sorcerers should cast off of Wisdom). While you believe that Cure Light Wounds wands aren't overused, I have first hand experience with the happy sticks tactic becoming a crutch in multiple games, going as far as having a front-line fighter bickering to be healed to full before the party even thinks of going forward, despite being at 80% of max health.
With what we've seen from Resonance so far, there are a fair amount of issues that need to be addressed and worked out during the playtest, but saying it's pointless is simply not true - in regards to it's restrictiveness, yes it's pretty restrictive, but that's why it's important to address it during the playtest, that way it won't be more restrictive than P1e's body slots and UMD.
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I figure that without some kind of hard limit, the sword that shoots fire is going to be a big enough problem that you wouldn't give one to the party. Now, you might.
I agree with PossibleCabbage. Many magic items with abilities such as firing a ray of fire, would likely have a limit in the existing system in the form of charges or uses per day. Resonance plays the same role (in a more elegant and player focused manner in my opinion).
My feet are small enough that I did put my shoes inside my larger friend's shoes as a gag once. Kind of made me look like a clown.I suspect it's also quite awkward to walk around like that and would make it difficult to do something like dance. Which means, at a bare minimum, would impose some kind of skill and attack penalty if someone REALLY wanted to argue they can physically do it.
That is correct, and I completely agree. It is also quite funny.
It probably doesn't need to be in the rules, but I'd allow it at my table.+1 circumstance to preform; comedy.
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Yeah....,
No. Deal breaker for me or house ruled away. As I'm understanding this, we are encouraged to go for the the most bang for our Resonance bucks. This already happens in E1 so all we're doing here is actually giving a stat for it now. Auto Progression at least in my games has allowed for more off the meta path picks. And why should I bother making items now? Now they have to worry about how much better and worse the gear pieces are but allow how much Resonance they have/take up. No thank you.
And to top it off the Potions taking it? Wow no wonder you guys are changing the class, as this would shoot Alchemists in the foot(Or maybe just gut punch them). Last few years I've spent playing them and was all about using their Brew potion and drinking as much as I could. Now?
"Well Jimmy you did a nice job making these potions. It's a shame you can't use any magic items"
Yes I know Alchemists are supposed to be changed but if anything from them dips into Resonance, that could be crippling. Or for any class that needs it for class features of any kind(Heck how does this work with Craft feats)
Designer
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How would this operate with potions if another character is the one pouring it, IE trying to bring an unconscious party member up? Would the person pouring the potion spend a resonance point to activate the potion, or would the one unconscious be the one having to use a resonance point to activate it?The person who activates the item spends the resonance. So if you're using the wand on someone (by being able to cast heal or by having a UMD equivalent), you're spending it.One thing I am wondering about is whether consumables other than those that cure use up resonance, and (in the case of a wand of curing) whose resonance they use up. If Resonance is not handled well, I could see it making whole classes of consumable magic items virtually unusable because of people wanting to conserve their Resonance for more important things.
The drinker. For items you drink, the person drinking it has to activate, and there's a special rule for this happening while you're unconscious.
Yeah....,
No. Deal breaker for me or house ruled away. As I'm understanding this, we are encouraged to go for the the most bang for our Resonance bucks. This already happens in E1 so all we're doing here is actually giving a stat for it now. Auto Progression at least in my games has allowed for more off the meta path picks. And why should I bother making items now? Now they have to worry about how much better and worse the gear pieces are but allow how much Resonance they have/take up. No thank you.
And to top it off the Potions taking it? Wow no wonder you guys are changing the class, as this would shoot Alchemists in the foot(Or maybe just gut punch them). Last few years I've spent playing them and was all about using their Brew potion and drinking as much as I could. Now?
"Well Jimmy you did a nice job making these potions. It's a shame you can't use any magic items"
Yes I know Alchemists are supposed to be changed but if anything from them dips into Resonance, that could be crippling. Or for any class that needs it for class features of any kind(Heck how does this work with Craft feats)
And here you are assuming how it works with the rest of the game, which is the same reason many of the problems are "theoric"
As far as we know, maybe alchemists have extra points of resonance, or maybe their potions dont cost any, or maybe an alchemist feat gives them the extra points or remove the cost...
In the end, it is very hard to guess the whole picture right now.
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So am I reading resonance right in that now someone can wear, say 10 magic rings if they have enough resonance to do so? Honestly, that's pretty cool.Or they can wear two shirts, and 3 pairs of shoes...
Or we still have slots in addition to resonance
In the podcast they said they did away with slots but expect people to use reason. Like wearing two pairs of shoes just doesn't make sense but you can wear multiple amulets and rings.
Worn items that would conflict with others have a listing and you can't wear two of the same type. So if you had two worn footwear items, they'd list that, but rings wouldn't list ring because you have plenty of places to wear those.
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Alchemist elixirs don't cost resonance if the alchemist drinks them. But if anyone else drinks them, they cost resonance.
Alchemist elixirs don't cost resonance if the alchemist drinks them. But if anyone else drinks them, they cost resonance.
Make me be even greedier with my personal buffs then.
I could see Infusion 2.0 taking that cost away though. But is the cost paid by the Alchemist or the Drinker?
Alchemist elixirs don't cost resonance if the alchemist drinks them. But if anyone else drinks them, they cost resonance.Make me be even greedier with my personal buffs then.
I could see Infusion 2.0 taking that cost away though. But is the cost paid by the Alchemist or the Drinker?
It’s paid for by the drinker. There’s no indication that crafting or making things requires resonance, somebody just mentioned it as a possibility.
So am I reading resonance right in that now someone can wear, say 10 magic rings if they have enough resonance to do so? Honestly, that's pretty cool.
Actually 28 rings.
10 Fingers
10 Toes
2 Ears
1 Nose
5 Fingers from the Hand of Glory
:)
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Better not go unconscious without any resonance!
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So am I reading resonance right in that now someone can wear, say 10 magic rings if they have enough resonance to do so? Honestly, that's pretty cool.Actually 28 rings.
10 Fingers
10 Toes
2 Ears
1 Nose
5 Fingers from the Hand of Glory:)
20th level Sorcerers are scary.
Better not go unconscious without any resonance!
One can still roll for the "use a magic thing with zero resonance" while unconscious, right?
I also wonder if there is design space for consumables that specifically do not use resonance but have other negative side effects. Like a healing potion that also gives you an extended duration negative condition, appropriate for saving a life but not for mid combat healing.
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The drinker. For items you drink, the person drinking it has to activate, and there's a special rule for this happening while you're unconscious.
Boo. Boo and a hiss. Potions taking up resonance is the only thing I'm actively hostile against. Them and scrolls. And alchemical items.
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Also about the Wand spam, um still possible? Maybe, depending on what rules they come out with between now and release. Takes more work maybe.
Someone here or elsewhere brought up Summons. Can a smart enough one be given the wand to use? Also a big Meta idea is to pick up a Familair with hands so it can use Wands and Scrolls right now. In this new edition, can they still? And who pays the Resonance cost?
Eidolons too could do this when they show up. Or any smart enough pet/companion. Heck how muc does a hireling cost? Hire a good looking one l, give them a wand, and keep them in the back("Nurse Hazel quick we need the wand Stat!")
Even if some of these get patched in with rules, the party could still find a way to get Wand casts as long as they can find someone or something else to use the castings.
And suddenly I'm picturing a group of Resonance draining Vampires, going from town to town taking/using it from others. Actually while I have that in my head, we'll have to wait on it but what would the rules be if your Cha goes down due to effects?
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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... but rings wouldn't list ring because you have plenty of places to wear those.
"How are you using an effect that is only found on rings? You clearly aren't wearing any on your hands."
*suggestive eyebrow raise and smirk*
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The drinker. For items you drink, the person drinking it has to activate, and there's a special rule for this happening while you're unconscious.How would this operate with potions if another character is the one pouring it, IE trying to bring an unconscious party member up? Would the person pouring the potion spend a resonance point to activate the potion, or would the one unconscious be the one having to use a resonance point to activate it?The person who activates the item spends the resonance. So if you're using the wand on someone (by being able to cast heal or by having a UMD equivalent), you're spending it.One thing I am wondering about is whether consumables other than those that cure use up resonance, and (in the case of a wand of curing) whose resonance they use up. If Resonance is not handled well, I could see it making whole classes of consumable magic items virtually unusable because of people wanting to conserve their Resonance for more important things.
Ooooooo, I'm still against Resonance applying to consumables but oooooooo...
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So, alchemist eats through two resources when interacting with others. Or more, if you count the time it takes to draw, pass, and drink extracts/elixers. I can also very easily see an infusion 2.0 helping mitigate that problem, but it's something a druid or bard would never even have to think about. Hopefully, there will be a reason to play them that doesn't rely on being better at spending gold.
"No, Alchemist, I don't want your help. I need to use my sweet fire sword!"
"No, Fighter, I can't help you. You blew your load on that sweet fire sword, and I don't want a bad resonance roll to waste my magic juice. Wait, what's a resonance roll? Why do I feel like I didn't have to worry about something like this last year? What did I put in that Wisdom enhancing potion? Why is Wisdom capitalized? Guys, I'm really high right now."
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Worn items that would conflict with others have a listing and you can't wear two of the same type. So if you had two worn footwear items, they'd list that, but rings wouldn't list ring because you have plenty of places to wear those.So am I reading resonance right in that now someone can wear, say 10 magic rings if they have enough resonance to do so? Honestly, that's pretty cool.Or they can wear two shirts, and 3 pairs of shoes...
Or we still have slots in addition to resonance
In the podcast they said they did away with slots but expect people to use reason. Like wearing two pairs of shoes just doesn't make sense but you can wear multiple amulets and rings.
Awww, I was honestly hoping this would allow variance for wondrous items, like magical socks/longjohns that gave protection from the elements or something :3
Completely serious. Magical earrings and anklets and the like will be nice.
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Magical earrings and anklets and the like will be nice.
Agree, I was hopping for the same
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As it is, people are really getting worked up over fog and smoke.
If the fog and smoke of PF2E is anything like PF1E, then I can understand their frustrations.
When 90% of encounters are trivialized by a racial trait, a moderate sense of optimization, and a 10,000 gold wondrous item, I don't expect a whole lot of people to be too happy about it.
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Too "gamist"?
People, may I remember you that this is a GAME, and games need a little compromise to work.
Gary Gygax himself told about many mechanics which, while not making absolute sense in-world, make the game better. Like XP for defeating monsters or gaining treasure.
This is not an accurate simulation of a world. This is, first and foremost, a GAME, and Resonance clearly works out to make the game better (as I have explained here and in the other thread), so it's a good mechanic.
Honestly, why people overthink about something so simple as saying "ok, this thing has always been here, no need to calculate everything past" is beyond me.
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Too "gamist"?
People, may I remember you that this is a GAME, and games need a little compromise to work.
Gary Gygax himself told about many mechanics which, while not making absolute sense in-world, make the game better. Like XP for defeating monsters or gaining treasure.
This is not an accurate simulation of a world. This is, first and foremost, a GAME, and Resonance clearly works out to make the game better (as I have explained here and in the other thread), so it's a good mechanic.
Honestly, why people overthink about something so simple as saying "ok, this thing has always been here, no need to calculate everything past" is beyond me.
Giving me another number to have to keep track of, build around , and possible exploit/have others do so; yeah this does feel gamey to me.
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Giving me another number to have to keep track of, build around , and possible exploit/have others do so; yeah this does feel gamey to me.
How is this more gamey than "well, I can wear a magic hat, headband, and goggles, as well as a magic robe, shirt, and armor but no more than two rings"?"
If anything "you can equip 8 magic items" is a lot easier than tracking specific slots.
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Giving me another number to have to keep track of, build around , and possible exploit/have others do so; yeah this does feel gamey to me.Too "gamist"?
People, may I remember you that this is a GAME, and games need a little compromise to work.
Gary Gygax himself told about many mechanics which, while not making absolute sense in-world, make the game better. Like XP for defeating monsters or gaining treasure.
This is not an accurate simulation of a world. This is, first and foremost, a GAME, and Resonance clearly works out to make the game better (as I have explained here and in the other thread), so it's a good mechanic.
Honestly, why people overthink about something so simple as saying "ok, this thing has always been here, no need to calculate everything past" is beyond me.
And you're ok with tracking all charges of every wand, rod, staff, ring, all X/day uses of magical swords and armor, all X hours per day of boots, gloves, etc.?
How is reducing all of this into one number an extra number to track of?
And not to talk about the irony of people complaining about being too "gamey" when we're an fork of what is possibly the most gamey RPG system of all time...
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Maybe I'd be fine with this system...if potions, wands, and scrolls COST NOTHING TO MAKE. Remove the cost of obtaining the consumable, or remove the cost of using the consumable. Either one works, but both of them together is just asinine
I don't mind resonance as a replacement for magic item slots or non-healing item usage, but combining healing and cool stuff to the same resource pool just makes cool stuff less usable for people who actually want to live long enough to use their cool stuff.
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Maybe I'd be fine with this system...if potions, wands, and scrolls COST NOTHING TO MAKE. Remove the cost of obtaining the consumable, or remove the cost of using the consumable. Either one works, but both of them together is just asinine
I don't mind resonance as a replacement for magic item slots or non-healing item usage, but combining healing and cool stuff to the same resource pool just makes cool stuff less usable for people who actually want to live long enough to use their cool stuff.
A designer or such has already told us, in this very thread, that there's plenty of healing to have and this is not a problem in actual games.
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Giving me another number to have to keep track of, build around , and possible exploit/have others do so; yeah this does feel gamey to me.Too "gamist"?
People, may I remember you that this is a GAME, and games need a little compromise to work.
Gary Gygax himself told about many mechanics which, while not making absolute sense in-world, make the game better. Like XP for defeating monsters or gaining treasure.
This is not an accurate simulation of a world. This is, first and foremost, a GAME, and Resonance clearly works out to make the game better (as I have explained here and in the other thread), so it's a good mechanic.
Honestly, why people overthink about something so simple as saying "ok, this thing has always been here, no need to calculate everything past" is beyond me.And you're ok with tracking all charges of every wand, rod, staff, ring, all X/day uses of magical swords and armor, all X hours per day of boots, gloves, etc.?
How is reducing all of this into one number an extra number to track of?
And not to talk about the irony of people complaining about being too "gamey" when we're an fork of what is possibly the most gamey RPG system of all time...
To be fair, most of the time you don't think about *everything* at once, which you have to do when using resonance. You have a list of gear and when you want to use something that's when you interact with whatever charge or use per day mechanic they have.
As a whole, you have to interact with a tracking mechanic the same number of times as before, just now you *also* have to think about all of your other items you might be locking yourself out of by using *this* one.
I agree that it is more work, especially if items have uses per day or charges anyway. So far I don't think I've seen confirmation that wands no longer have charges, so you're still tracking that on top of Resonance.
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They could get people to favor high level single use items instead of low level ones by cost alone. Of a healing 1d8 potion costs 50 and a healing 3d8 one costs 120, the second one is better healing for value.
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Giving me another number to have to keep track of, build around , and possible exploit/have others do so; yeah this does feel gamey to me.Too "gamist"?
People, may I remember you that this is a GAME, and games need a little compromise to work.
Gary Gygax himself told about many mechanics which, while not making absolute sense in-world, make the game better. Like XP for defeating monsters or gaining treasure.
This is not an accurate simulation of a world. This is, first and foremost, a GAME, and Resonance clearly works out to make the game better (as I have explained here and in the other thread), so it's a good mechanic.
Honestly, why people overthink about something so simple as saying "ok, this thing has always been here, no need to calculate everything past" is beyond me.And you're ok with tracking all charges of every wand, rod, staff, ring, all X/day uses of magical swords and armor, all X hours per day of boots, gloves, etc.?
How is reducing all of this into one number an extra number to track of?
Because it feels very much like another energy bar in a video game. And since I play online and can do this, it WILL be another energy bar over my characters head.
I await when we get the Mana bar.
I get why people like this idea. It's easier. But given my own experiences, I keep seeing problems and issuses with this system while the problems they want to solve are still there but the numbers are just more manageable.
Mind you this is still a couple months off release so I could be surprised. And how the items actually function might prove my worries wrong.
I just dislike the system as my last two builds were focused on drinking potions as fast as possible. And when the game system say "You can only drink 4 now" or close to that then yeah, it feels noticible gamey.
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We shouldn't be silly here. If Resonance is such an important mechanic as the devs have said, it is OBVIOUS that it'll replace this whole X/day or Y charges or Z hours/day stuff.
Also, you actually think all that all the time because you're always thinking about how to use your magic items in an efficient way. Now you think about one stuff.
It is a simple as tracking HP. Oh, and we invented the whole health bar thing, for a start!
Also, we have mana bars since psionics have been invented.
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The way I see it, wands aren't just sticks full of spells anymore. Wands are a magic item that turns Resonance into a spell.
Potions are a magical/chemical compound that, when consumed, reacts with your Resonance to cause an effect.
I assume that scrolls would work the same way as wands, except scrolls disintegrate when they come in contact with Resonance.
Worn magic items just absorb a bit of Resonance from you to function.
If magic items run off of Resonance and produce effects similar to spells, one would logically assume that Spellcasters may be able to turn excess spell energy into Resonance? I'm not sure what I think of that, but it makes sense in my (weird) brain.
You. I like you.
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We shouldn't be silly here.
SiLLY HATS ONLY.
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We shouldn't be silly here. If Resonance is such an important mechanic as the devs have said, it is OBVIOUS that it'll replace this whole X/day or Y charges or Z hours/day stuff.
Also, you actually think all that all the time because you're always thinking about how to use your magic items in an efficient way. Now you think about one stuff.
It is a simple as tracking HP. Oh, and we invented the whole health bar thing, for a start!
Also, we have mana bars since psionics have been invented.
"Let's see I need 4 for my gear, 2 for my sword. I'll leave 3 open for my wand and that lets me have 4 for potions right?"
DM: Yes but did you factor in X buff or Y debuff?
"Let me do the math again"
DM: While you're doing that, here's the rules for when your Resonance goes below 0 due to outside forces.
Also forgive me, I have played with psionics. Well one, Spiritualist.
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Pathfinder has a lot of cool magic items that have cool spells, but are next to useless.
Take the Cloak of the Hedge Wizard. The enchantment version can cast Charm Person or Sleep. This is a cool way to round out a character's magic reserves or for a martial to have a few extra tricks.
But the DC on these abilities are only 11, and they are useable once per day. As cool as I think this cloak is, I'm not going to pay 2500g to buy it. Every time I'm going to sell it and buy a pearl of power or a cloak of resistance.
Hopeful resonance opens up design space for more useful wondrous items.
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We shouldn't be silly here. If Resonance is such an important mechanic as the devs have said, it is OBVIOUS that it'll replace this whole X/day or Y charges or Z hours/day stuff.
Also, you actually think all that all the time because you're always thinking about how to use your magic items in an efficient way. Now you think about one stuff.
It is a simple as tracking HP. Oh, and we invented the whole health bar thing, for a start!
Also, we have mana bars since psionics have been invented."Let's see I need 4 for my gear, 2 for my sword. I'll leave 3 open for my wand and that lets me have 4 for potions right?"
DM: Yes but did you factor in X buff or Y debuff?
"Let me do the math again"
DM: While you're doing that, here's the rules for when your Resonance goes below 0 due to outside forces.
Also forgive me, I have played with psionics. Well one, Spiritualist.
Spiritualist is Psychic/Occult Magic, not Psionics.
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Health bars. Mana bars. Resonance.
This is sounding scarily like the whole part of 4E that made me extremely unhappy.
See, I don't like when the game reminds me I'm playing a game. Every time there's some awkward mechanic that exists for no other reason than to fix some gameplay issue, it's like someone comes up and smacks me in the face and says "hey! don't forget you're playing a game!"
It runs entirely counter to me trying to run a game and not ruin the immersion in what's actually happening.
Granted, this is all based on some stuff in a podcast, but it makes me nervous - that was a major problem I had with 4e, and a comment like "we've invented mana bars" doesn't help much :/
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Pathfinder has a lot of cool magic items that have cool spells, but are next to useless.
Take the Cloak of the Hedge Wizard. The enchantment version can cast Charm Person or Sleep. This is a cool way to round out a character's magic reserves or for a martial to have a few extra tricks.
But the DC on these abilities are only 11, and they are useable once per day. As cool as I think this cloak is, I'm not going to pay 2500g to buy it. Every time I'm going to sell it and buy a pearl of power or a cloak of resistance.
Hopeful resonance opens up design space for more useful wondrous items.
They did say spells of all levels run at your max save DC. Might mean magic items are like staves and run off YOUR level. After all, it's YOUR resonance they're spending to power up!
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In five years Paizo will release a book called "Pathfinder on Chains", that will bring back much of the rules from PF1 and them maybe I could play PF2.
Now seriously. The system so far seemed good. It changed or simplifed how things works, but they didn't change how the game feels. All this resonance-stuff change how the game and the world works and feels.
I'd never use any of it on my games. Never.
So, if this sub-system make to the final PF2, count me as a PF1-loyalist and on board on the "Pathfinder On Chains" hype.
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We shouldn't be silly here. If Resonance is such an important mechanic as the devs have said, it is OBVIOUS that it'll replace this whole X/day or Y charges or Z hours/day stuff.
Also, you actually think all that all the time because you're always thinking about how to use your magic items in an efficient way. Now you think about one stuff.
It is a simple as tracking HP. Oh, and we invented the whole health bar thing, for a start!
Also, we have mana bars since psionics have been invented."Let's see I need 4 for my gear, 2 for my sword. I'll leave 3 open for my wand and that lets me have 4 for potions right?"
DM: Yes but did you factor in X buff or Y debuff?
"Let me do the math again"
DM: While you're doing that, here's the rules for when your Resonance goes below 0 due to outside forces.
Also forgive me, I have played with psionics. Well one, Spiritualist.
Still seems quite simple. Simpler than:
"Ok, I have this wand with 37 charges, this staff with 25 charges, with uses that have between 1 to 4 points costs, these boots with 1 hour and 23 minutes left, this sword still with 3 uses today, this armor with 2 uses remaining..."Yea, I would chose resonance at any day.
Health bars. Mana bars. Resonance.
This is sounding scarily like the whole part of 4E that made me extremely unhappy.
See, I don't like when the game reminds me I'm playing a game. Every time there's some awkward mechanic that exists for no other reason than to fix some gameplay issue, it's like someone comes up and smacks me in the face and says "hey! don't forget you're playing a game!"
It runs entirely counter to me trying to run a game and not ruin the immersion in what's actually happening.
Granted, this is all based on some stuff in a podcast, but it makes me nervous - that was a major problem I had with 4e, and a comment like "we've invented mana bars" doesn't help much :/
We did, and it was quite a long time ago. Gary Gygax said to everyone that his game was a gamist game. Better think about that :)
Honestly, I'm sure they'll create an in-game explanation for this mechanic. It's not hard at all.