Resonance: what do you think?


Prerelease Discussion

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Rysky wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Igwilly wrote:

We shouldn't be silly here. If Resonance is such an important mechanic as the devs have said, it is OBVIOUS that it'll replace this whole X/day or Y charges or Z hours/day stuff.

Also, you actually think all that all the time because you're always thinking about how to use your magic items in an efficient way. Now you think about one stuff.
It is a simple as tracking HP. Oh, and we invented the whole health bar thing, for a start!
Also, we have mana bars since psionics have been invented.

"Let's see I need 4 for my gear, 2 for my sword. I'll leave 3 open for my wand and that lets me have 4 for potions right?"

DM: Yes but did you factor in X buff or Y debuff?

"Let me do the math again"

DM: While you're doing that, here's the rules for when your Resonance goes below 0 due to outside forces.

Also forgive me, I have played with psionics. Well one, Spiritualist.

Spiritualist is Psychic/Occult Magic, not Psionics.

Guess there is a difference between the two huh? My own experiences and knowledge are lacking I will admit.

Also on mobile so forgive the quote chain I left


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kyrt-ryder wrote:

Resonance is fine for 'equipping items'

I strongly dislike it for use activated.

I feel like also applying it to activated items and also consumables opens up some interesting space for item design though.

Since now you can have boots that allow you to spend one point of resonance to let you fly for a duration. Previously you would need to cap that at 1/day or 3/day, but now someone can use their flying boots a lot if that's what they want, and you even have a chance to use them once you're out of resonance.

But you need to apply the same restriction to consumable items that let you fly, otherwise no one would ever want the magic boots.


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Igwilly wrote:
Honestly, I'm sure they'll create an in-game explanation for this mechanic. It's not hard at all.

What might be a little harder is explaining why the heroes of old didn't need to worry about such things. Odd things happen when you move a setting through inconsistant editions. Yeah, you can officially retcon it, but that's just a blunt instrument. It's going to leave a lot of tables a little confused.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
Rysky wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Igwilly wrote:

We shouldn't be silly here. If Resonance is such an important mechanic as the devs have said, it is OBVIOUS that it'll replace this whole X/day or Y charges or Z hours/day stuff.

Also, you actually think all that all the time because you're always thinking about how to use your magic items in an efficient way. Now you think about one stuff.
It is a simple as tracking HP. Oh, and we invented the whole health bar thing, for a start!
Also, we have mana bars since psionics have been invented.

"Let's see I need 4 for my gear, 2 for my sword. I'll leave 3 open for my wand and that lets me have 4 for potions right?"

DM: Yes but did you factor in X buff or Y debuff?

"Let me do the math again"

DM: While you're doing that, here's the rules for when your Resonance goes below 0 due to outside forces.

Also forgive me, I have played with psionics. Well one, Spiritualist.

Spiritualist is Psychic/Occult Magic, not Psionics.

Guess there is a difference between the two huh? My own experiences and knowledge are lacking I will admit.

Also on mobile so forgive the quote chain I left

No worries


I don't think an in game explanation is needed. How many people in all of Golarion, other than people's PCs, will have exceeded their resonance limits with any regularity?

For purposes of writing PF2, it really doesn't matter what people's PCs did. I'm sure someone had a PC who cast a spell once that won't exist in PF2.


You have to attune most of your magic items in Exalted, it was largely about syching the aura of the item with your own personal aura. Plus a lot of stuff in Exalted was flat out too bulky and clumsy to even use without being attuned (10' sword made of gold and covered in spikes sort of things)

So I can get behind the basic ideas of Resonence cause I'm kind of used to it.

My main issue is with Potions, Scrolls and other 1-shot consumable items. It seems to defeat the entire purpose of having Potions and Scrolls.


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gbonehead wrote:

Health bars. Mana bars. Resonance.

This is sounding scarily like the whole part of 4E that made me extremely unhappy.

See, I don't like when the game reminds me I'm playing a game. Every time there's some awkward mechanic that exists for no other reason than to fix some gameplay issue, it's like someone comes up and smacks me in the face and says "hey! don't forget you're playing a game!"

It runs entirely counter to me trying to run a game and not ruin the immersion in what's actually happening.

Granted, this is all based on some stuff in a podcast, but it makes me nervous - that was a major problem I had with 4e, and a comment like "we've invented mana bars" doesn't help much :/

Magic is made up, but as far as popular intuitions go, an extremely large portion of fictional portrayals of magic involve something not too far from mana bars - whether it's explicit bars as in video games or just characters saying they're too exhausted to work their magic - and as far as I can tell, none that portray Vancian casting other than D&D and Jack Vance themselves. If it reminds you of a video game that's because it reminds you of almost anything other than D&D.

Vancian casting is pretty unintuitive - both for our intuitions about magic, and more seriously for our intuitions about, like, what it is to remember things - but it does have some pretty neat features in a game about applying lateral thinking to logistics/resource management puzzles, which is what early D&D was. It's at least as gamey as 4e granting Fighters maneuvers they could use once a day, and only more acceptable to the fanbase because (1) again, magic is made up, and (2) we've become familiar with it.


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After thinking about resonance for a while, I still dislike it as much as I did while listening to the GCP playtest. It feels like a needlessly limiting rule to deal with an issue (CLW wand spamming) that can be handled in-game in many other ways by a GM. It will reduce the interest in using "cool effect" magic items that are great for flavor in favor of holding onto resonance points for healing. While it will not make PF2 unplayable if included, it will be something I will always end up house ruling around, which will be frustrating. Perhaps when we see a full version of the playtest rules in August it will seem less annoying, but with what I have heard of it so far, I don't see its value in improving the game.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Logan Bonner wrote:
The drinker. For items you drink, the person drinking it has to activate, and there's a special rule for this happening while you're unconscious.

I'm pretty neutral right now on resonance because I haven't actually seen the rules but... I think I'm kind of against it for potions.

Wand? Sure, activating a wand might take something out of me. Staff? Scroll even, I can wrap my head around the idea that it's me doing the casting/activating, and the wand/staff/scroll/whatever is just guiding me or showing me how.

But potion? Nope. Can't wrap my head around it. Feels wrong.

A potions is a brewed concoction that does what it does. You drink alcohol, you get drunk. You drink poison, you get killed. You drink some blood, you've got enough energy to avoid being staked this night. You drink a magic potion, you get the results.

And that's just the style/atmosphere argument. Mechanically, having a bag-of-tricks the party can invest in for a rainy day is cool. "Oh, poop, it'd really be great if everyone could go invisible at the same time, but even though we've got a six-pack of potions of invisibility we bought/found/stole/made, we can't do it because Steve is out of* resonance."

*I've seen the statement "in our playtests, it's rare anyone runs out of resonance." If that's the case, I guess we don't actually need a limit.

Anyway, put me down for "tentatively strongly dislikes resonance applied to potions, undecided for anything else."


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
How many people in all of Golarion, other than people's PCs, will have exceeded their resonance limits with any regularity?

Researching wizards, experimenting alchemists, questing psychics, hoarding occultists, far flung explorers, daring archeologists, adventuring pathfinders, busy red mantis assassins, an unlucky bard, orcish shamans, and basically anyone that pushes limits in general. It's not a particularly rare personality trait.

Then again, Alpon Caromarc waved his shiny creation feats in front of all the other alchemists for a long time before we were allowed to do that too. The setting doesn't need to be 100% consistent, nor would I demand that it be. But I do think that inconsistencies are at least worth mentioning and discussion. Sometimes, they're unintended, and pointing them out helps make a setting better.


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Igwilly wrote:
And you're ok with tracking all charges of every wand, rod, staff, ring, all X/day uses of magical swords and armor, all X hours per day of boots, gloves, etc.?

Maybe it's my ownership of pencils and erasers that does it for me, but this is... really stupid-easy.

In the gear area of your character sheet, it says:
wand of fireball (34)

Why? Because you've got a wand with 34 charges on it.

Use a charge? Make a little line. |
Use another? Make a little line. ||
At five, cross the set.

Leveled up? Update the printed number in brackets.

Daily uses?

boots of do something (3/day)

Used the boots? Make a little line.
Rested? Use an eraser.

It's really, really, really not hard to keep track of this stuff. Even with mythic, post-20th multiclass characters.

The only book-keeping simplicity that this system offers is that all your (magic item) tracking is done on one line, instead of beside each item.

Considering you're already using multiple areas to track things like hit points, and spells consumed, what's the issue here? I really don't want to sound mean, but it's almost "I don't want to move my hand slightly further down the page". <Grin>


Greylurker wrote:
My main issue is with Potions, Scrolls and other 1-shot consumable items. It seems to defeat the entire purpose of having Potions and Scrolls.

Well, let's say scrolls and potions are relegated to emergency or off-day use, and instead the focus is put on wondrous items for utility purposes. So boots that let you fly or a belt that enlarges you instead of a potion of fly or a potion of enlarge person. Would that be a negative change?

Healing is a separate issue, but we don't know enough about how it works in PF2 yet to really comment.


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So after reading most of this 14 page discussion, I can say that resonance seems like a really really bad idea. If it truly has anything to do with CLW wands that seems like an issue with how wands work rather than a universal magic item problem. This 'fix' creates more problems than it solves. I will tentatively wait to see the math, but Paizo will also need to dial this back.

The only pro I can see for resonance is unifying the charge pools of anything you have with charges. Accordingly I would support the idea of resonance if it applied only to charged items, either non-renewing like wands or things with charges/day like boots of speed It would not apply to single-use consumables or static effect items. Incidentally this modification of the resonance system would solve the CLW problem for those who see it as a problem as well as not causing most of the issues that people in this thread have identified.

Make wands like the everlasting wands from 3.5. 1-3/day and beyond that they cost resonance. That is how the idea can be leveraged in a useful way. Or maybe using a potion or a scroll could *optionally* use resonance to bring the effect your your level rather than the item's caster level. Again, a way to use the system to add rather than subtract character options and actions.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
My main issue is with Potions, Scrolls and other 1-shot consumable items. It seems to defeat the entire purpose of having Potions and Scrolls.

Well, let's say scrolls and potions are relegated to emergency or off-day use, and instead the focus is put on wondrous items for utility purposes. So boots that let you fly or a belt that enlarges you instead of a potion of fly or a potion of enlarge person. Would that be a negative change?

Healing is a separate issue, but we don't know enough about how it works in PF2 yet to really comment.

This is a really good point. It's cheap to grab a potion or scroll of a niche spell, but the magic item you buy with repeated use is for the stuff you know you will get a lot of use out of.


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I would be quite sad to see the magic get taken away from magical potions.
Tasting the sunshine on the turning of the tide is cool.
Double cool when it's both literal and metaphorical, as drinking a potion of daylight to blind the drow in a reverse ambush is totally radical.

Is the hypothetical change negative, or positive? My opinion is that it's neither of those. It's just a matter of taste, if you'll pardon the pun. Just a personal preference of flavors.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:


Well, let's say scrolls and potions are relegated to emergency or off-day use, and instead the focus is put on wondrous items for utility purposes. So boots that let you fly or a belt that enlarges you instead of a potion of fly or a potion of enlarge person. Would that be a negative change?

In my opinion, that would still be a negative change. If a character has a boots of flight and a belt of enlarge person, they should be able to do both things, not a bunch of one and none of the other.

And that's only talking about tracking uses. Investing Resonance just to wear items is, as I've said before, just Item Level in disguise, which needlessly restricts how much you can wear.

That reminds me: Get ready for Schrodinger's Attunement. All of a typical player's gear will be simultaneously attuned and not attuned each day until an item's effect comes up in play. "Wait, you drank six potions. Does that mean you didn't attune anything this morning?" "...yes."


I mean, personally I feel "a scroll or a potion" is the least interesting way to generate a given effect.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

One of the things resonance does is firmly entrench potions as magical, thus opening up more mundane alchemical items to fill the niche of low-level wands and stuff (acid flaks, smoke sticks, healing elixirs). My sense from the GCP stuff is that alchemical items fill some of these niches without costing resonance.

Moreover, anything that makes herbalism/alchemy a more intrinsic part of the game is good. In many ways, I think it also fits the flavor of Golarion well already, too.


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Anguish wrote:
Igwilly wrote:
And you're ok with tracking all charges of every wand, rod, staff, ring, all X/day uses of magical swords and armor, all X hours per day of boots, gloves, etc.?

Maybe it's my ownership of pencils and erasers that does it for me, but this is... really stupid-easy.

In the gear area of your character sheet, it says:
wand of fireball (34)

Why? Because you've got a wand with 34 charges on it.

Use a charge? Make a little line. |
Use another? Make a little line. ||
At five, cross the set.

Leveled up? Update the printed number in brackets.

Daily uses?

boots of do something (3/day)

Used the boots? Make a little line.
Rested? Use an eraser.

It's really, really, really not hard to keep track of this stuff. Even with mythic, post-20th multiclass characters.

The only book-keeping simplicity that this system offers is that all your (magic item) tracking is done on one line, instead of beside each item.

Considering you're already using multiple areas to track things like hit points, and spells consumed, what's the issue here? I really don't want to sound mean, but it's almost "I don't want to move my hand slightly further down the page". <Grin>

And how is Resonance any more bookkeeping than before? That was the argument made.

Also, bookkeeping is hardly the reason for this new mechanic, as I've already said here and in the other thread. However, someone just came up with "Resonance is more bookkeeping". You just proved it wrong. Thank you ^^

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
WatersLethe wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


Well, let's say scrolls and potions are relegated to emergency or off-day use, and instead the focus is put on wondrous items for utility purposes. So boots that let you fly or a belt that enlarges you instead of a potion of fly or a potion of enlarge person. Would that be a negative change?

In my opinion, that would still be a negative change. If a character has a boots of flight and a belt of enlarge person, they should be able to do both things, not a bunch of one and none of the other.

And that's only talking about tracking uses. Investing Resonance just to wear items is, as I've said before, just Item Level in disguise, which needlessly restricts how much you can wear.

That reminds me: Get ready for Schrodinger's Attunement. All of a typical player's gear will be simultaneously attuned and not attuned each day until an item's effect comes up in play. "Wait, you drank six potions. Does that mean you didn't attune anything this morning?" "...yes."

Item cards (even just the name of an item on an index card) and tokens are an easy way to track this.


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Based on what we've seen thus far, I like it as it seems far less cumbersome than the existing rules using different slots, categories of boni, and Use Magic Device skill. I'm sure it could do with a bit of reworking, but I feel confident it can be made to work as well or better than the current system.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Assuming of course you don’t trust your players.


Saint Caleth wrote:

The only pro I can see for resonance is unifying the charge pools of anything you have with charges. Accordingly I would support the idea of resonance if it applied only to charged items, either non-renewing like wands or things with charges/day like boots of speed It would not apply to single-use consumables or static effect items. Incidentally this modification of the resonance system would solve the CLW problem for those who see it as a problem as well as not causing most of the issues that people in this thread have identified.

Make wands like the everlasting wands from 3.5. 1-3/day and beyond that they cost resonance. That is how the idea can be leveraged in a useful way. Or maybe using a potion or a scroll could *optionally* use resonance to bring the effect your your level rather than the item's caster level. Again, a way to use the system to add rather than subtract character options and actions.

You really have no idea that this isn't in fact what the designers have done. Jason already stepped in that you wouldn't get the context here until items are released. But I'm guessing wands no longer have 50 charges and go away when they're done.


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WatersLethe wrote:


That reminds me: Get ready for Schrodinger's Attunement. All of a typical player's gear will be simultaneously attuned and not attuned each day until an item's effect comes up in play. "Wait, you drank six potions. Does that mean you didn't attune anything this morning?" "...yes."

My 3.5 group did that with the Druid's magic. I guess the process to avoid that happen is the same.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, personally I feel "a scroll or a potion" is the least interesting way to generate a given effect.

The whole point of a Scroll or Potion is that "In a Pinch I've got this"

An emergency Knock spell or Fire resistance potion.

Blessed Weapon Oil in case we run into a demon or Rakasha or something.

They might not be "Heroic" but preparing for contingencies keeps you alive.


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Igwilly wrote:


My 3.5 group did that with the Druid's magic. I guess the process to avoid that happen is the same.

I meant it as a joke, but now that you mention it...

Fighter: "Let's crack some skulls!"

GM: "Alright, but first let me see your list of spells prepared for the day."

Fighter: "...What?"


WatersLethe wrote:


I meant it as a joke, but now that you mention it...

Fighter: "Let's crack some skulls!"

GM: "Alright, but first let me see your list of spells prepared for the day."

Fighter: "...What?"

Hahaha sorry, forgive me.

Although, that was a situation I faced with in many groups. "Hey, did you prepare all those spells today?" "...yeah."

Well, from now on, the DM of my 3.X group is going to keep his eyes open for that sort of stuff.


Greylurker wrote:
They might not be "Heroic" but preparing for contingencies keeps you alive.

How many of those emergencies do you need to prepare for in a given day? Just leave some resonance open, and you will be fine. If you roll well, you can even keep using them after you're out.


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I can deal with a lot of the mechanics for the 2.0. Even the ones I have not liked that much. But this Resonance concept ends up being the deal breaker for me. It takes away from the high fantasy and turns magic into some sort of limited resource.

Sorry Paizo, you loose me with this portion of the rules =/


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Well, I just want to finish off my participation in this thread for good.
I really liked this resonance system, and I hope that, when people actually see it in use, their worries will be solved. I think this is a great way to advance the game, for a lot of reasons.
And it gives me way more latitude in dealing with magical items. I don't like when the rules say "you need to give your players X magic items at level A". I hope this will address that.
To Paizo, good look with the development of this new edition. I'll be looking everything :)
See you later!


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Okay, so after a good amount of thought, I think I have a method of how resonance would work that will make everyone* happy.

Your resonance? That can be level+Cha (minimum 1). Not many people get a ton of magical items before level 2.

So, first you have your potions. These don't cost resonance. They're low-level self-targeting spells that anyone can use. No real change, except perhaps in cost. Easy and done.

Next, your scrolls. These work just the same as in P1e. No change needed, it serves the purpose of a 'one and done' spell battery. A spell cast on a previous day, frozen in the instant before completion, ready to be unleashed. Again, no real change needed.

Now, your wands. This is where the change starts. Wands are no longer a consumable. Rather, they are a pre-created focus for channeling magical energy. Maybe they stay level-locked, maybe not. Either way, one casting of the spell costs one resonance point, and no more, no less. (Wait! Keep reading!)

Next, staves. They stay fairly similar, holding 10 charges that can be expended later to cast spells, except now, instead of spell slots, you recharge a staff with resonance points. It's a great thing to to at the end of your day off, and you can even use the appropriate number of resonance to cast the spell immediately (if you're really desperate). They're also priced at a reasonable price point, making them the go-to for extra spells per day for a wizard (as it should be)

Then, wondrous items/rings/etc. These each require 1 resonance to use. Wait, wait! Let me explain.
So, say you're a particularly charismatic and wealthy 1st level character and have 3 resonance points. That means, you can be wearing one necklace, a pair of magic boots, and magic armor with no problems, all of which give you some passive bonus. Then, you're cornered and use a wand to magic missile a ghost. Now, you can choose which of your trinkets no longer provides its passive bonus. Now, you just have your armor and boots active. Now, you spend another point of resonance to activate the boot's secondary ability (something that formerly would have been 1/day). That ability is then activated, but even afterwards, the boot continues to provide its passive ability. That part is key. You aren't punished for doing the special thing your magic item can do. Now, you end the day with one resonance point, but with two magic items active.

Basically, how it would work: Any magic item that formerly took up a body slot now requires resonance to stay active. Meaning at level 1, you *technically* can have 10 fewer items active (but honestly, who at level 1 has all of their slots filled), and you catch up by level 11. Anything above that, you can have more item slot-using active at once than any P1e character, and even sooner if you have a CHA bonus. However, anything that is 1/day or 3/day or otherwise doesn't provide some sort of continuous effect in P1e doesn't take up a slot. Instead, to use that 1/day ability, you spend a resonance point. This equates to wearing an item- no other item can now use that slot- and using it. It prevents the 'I have a whole wardrobe of Quick Runner's Shirts in my back pocket' syndrome. If something would have been usable 3/day, spending the resonance would give you 3 uses of that ability, and if it were at will, spending the resonance means you can now use its ability whenever you want until you regain your resonance. Any resonance not spent by powering an activated item (like a wand or wondrous item) can be assigned (but not spent) to a magic item that provides a passive bonus. If an item with a passive bonus also has an activated ability, spending any resonance on that activated ability then gives you the passive bonus for the rest of the day- it doesn't go away all of a sudden. You can also change which item has resonance assigned to it as, say, an action. So, if you need to be sneaky, you can change your assigned resonance from your magic armor to your boots of sneaking, then back again if you get into a fight, costing nothing more than an action each time.

Does that all make sense? Essentially, it's Schrodinger's gear. Your resonance is assigned to magic items, giving you their passive. If you suddenly need some emergency resonance, you can lose the bonus to your boots of sneaking to let your sword shoot a fireball, or change it to a protective item you have equipped. Until you spend a resonance point, it can be used to power any of your magical items (and how often did you really need the effects of magical items from all 11 slots at the same time?), but only one item per point. If you get into a jam, or have more resonance than items, you can use some of those points to use a wand, to activate your boots of speed, or shoot a fireball from your sword.

So really, that's what it would take. You don't need to commit to having an entire day of your Boots of Sneaking eating up a precious resonance that you might need. It just takes up a resonance slot, just like they would have taken up your Feet slot. If you later find out that, shoot, you really need one more use from your Quick Runner's Shirt, you can essentially unequip your boots to equip an extra shirt. Spending the resonance point is just saying, "yes, I really am equipping this item, not carrying a bunch around and using them when convenient"
The key is to let resonance do something when its not spent, have some things that don't require resonance, and if you use a resonance to gain a secondary ability, you don't lose the passive primary.
Oh, and don't make one-use consumables take resonance. Just... don't.

If anyone is confused as to what I mean, I can give examples as to how old items might work with this system. All it really stops is using 20+ charges from a wand and changing shirts to get more and more free move actions.

...Whew. That turned out longer than I anticipated.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Banecrow wrote:

I can deal with a lot of the mechanics for the 2.0. Even the ones I have not liked that much. But this Resonance concept ends up being the deal breaker for me. It takes away from the high fantasy and turns magic into some sort of limited resource.

Sorry Paizo, you loose me with this portion of the rules =/

It was always a limited resource. X amount of charges...X times per day...and so on. This just removes an arbitrary system and replaces it one with a unified concept that ties into an already existing trope of Charisma-as-force-of-personality having a tie to innate magic.

I can see the complaint that it is clunky or gamist...but the resource management part has always been there just not pronounced and unified.


I just don't like it for consumables. I like it being tied to your magic item slots. Characters with high charisma get more item slots. It's a really good reason to invest into charisma.

I'd expect feats to give you more wiggle room.

I just don't like it on consumables as a hard rule. If I'm spending resonance on a consumable, then I'll want it to be enhanced. Let me heighten the Heal spell on that staff/ wand by spending more resonance or something. But just to use it? Bleh.


CorvusMask wrote:
Cha has always been sort of "Force of personality" in Pathfinder though. Unless you want to argue that Purple Worms are really charming

Depends on who you ask. Lamashtu might find them sexy...

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Having slept on it, I've come to the conclusion that being mad for five months is a bad idea.

Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!

It's the inevitable result of dribbles of info this far out from release. It's like they keep lighting kindling for a fire and you're telling at people to stop roasting hotdogs over the flames because the pyre isn't going to be fully aflame until later...


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thflame wrote:

The way I see it, wands aren't just sticks full of spells anymore. Wands are a magic item that turns Resonance into a spell.

Potions are a magical/chemical compound that, when consumed, reacts with your Resonance to cause an effect.

I assume that scrolls would work the same way as wands, except scrolls disintegrate when they come in contact with Resonance.

Worn magic items just absorb a bit of Resonance from you to function.

If magic items run off of Resonance and produce effects similar to spells, one would logically assume that Spellcasters may be able to turn excess spell energy into Resonance? I'm not sure what I think of that, but it makes sense in my (weird) brain.

I don't think people have too much of a problem with the thematics of Resonance. (The potions example doesn't add up based on what has been previously described about potions. Same can be said for Scrolls, but it might make more sense for Scrolls to apply since they still require innate skill on the consumer's part to activate.) It's more of the mechanics.

Resonance being tied with both regular equipment (which isn't a problem) and temporary/consumable equipment (of which a large subset of them are a problem) perpetuates the latter to also infest the former with its problematic aspects. Remember when Cure Wands were only an issue of Wands? Now they're an issue of anything that is a magic item, since the source of Wands and the source of every other magic item is now the same, which to many people (myself included) is a big issue.

Because to them, now they have to decide whether they want to benefit from certain items or make sure they can be topped off between fights. And for those who don't have an inherent desire to boost Resonance for reasons other than because Resonance is the new magic item meta, those choices are much more likely to lean toward the Wands than any other Magic Items, solely because a character that's alive is much more important and valuable than a few magic items here or there, both in-character and in-game.

So, if Resonance was created with the idea of removing CLW Wands from being staples, it does a very poor job of it. In fact, all it does is make players decide between CLW Wands and other magic items, which is just poor form and demonstration, and does absolutely nothing to solve the problem, and absolutely everything to make it worse and shoehorn player agency between their item choices in a largely negative way. Resonance can be a nice mechanic for generic magic items, but for consumables and wands, it will only fester an already existing problem onto another subject that, while it needs tweaking, is still mostly functional.

There are better ways to restrict Cure wands (or just Wands in general) than through Resonance, such as by changing the mechanics of Wands themselves to affect an ally with a given spell from a wand. I believe these avenues need to be pursued first before we really consider tying Resonance to consumables such as Scrolls, Wands, and Potions.


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I think we're only seeing half of the picture in an "attempt to quash the ubiquitous CLW wand". Which is to say, you can make people not want to use CLW wands via something like resonance, but you can make people really not want them with something like resonance and by making non-wand healing awesome.

In another thread Seifter mentioned a game in which the Barbarian was the healer, and was awesome at it, so it's presumably not something you even need a wand for anymore.


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I still would like to see how this system handles the CLW problem if you can easily get OTHERS to do so.

For that matter CHA damage/drain/debuff. There seems to be the idea in another topic that there is no Ability damage anymore, that a Shadow simply gave them a Sickend or something close to it. I can easily see them making a "Strength Sicken" debuff that gives a flat negative on Strength mod. To keep the number simple.

If this is how it's going to be handled, simply targeting the modifier, how would Resonance work under that condition. Or worse, if it stacks and someone can go below 0 Resonance?

While yes this is probably going to be a rare event.

Edit: Oh heck I just thought of this. How's Bag of Holding and Handy Haversack going to work? Just a 1-2 point cost to let you open it for the day? What happens if you don't pay for it?

See this is another reason I'm against the system. It's easy to say "Oh it just costs a point of Resonance to turn on or us X" but depending on the item this could mean different things or at least a different cost. Example: How's an item that has 2 actives or an active and a passive work? Do they both work? Do they both take Resonance to turn on?

Mind you I'm looking at this with 1e item knowledge and experience. They could totally do away with this or explain things later. But until more info comes out, I'll be back here under my rock of unsure.


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I think I might be slightly coming around to accepting resonance as potentially non-horrible. Still not a huge fan or think it's really necessary. Although I do hate x/per day use items and abilities and very rarely use them (I always go for passives or at will). So using this as a way of unifying those I can kind of accept. But at the same time I don't think potions or scrolls or any other one-shot item should use it. Not being able to use a potion because I ODed on magic is really not my idea of fun. And they're used up anyway, having them cost resonance is a double penalty.

I'm also wary of resonance being used for passive items through attunement. I /like/ having a lot of magic. Perhaps have passive items only cost half resonance or something. So we can do away with slots but not be too limited in our magic use.

Scarab Sages

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I will houserule this things faster than light, that is for sure. I just need time to wrap my head around this.

I have several ideas but each one is not satisfying eitheir so far.


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Dαedαlus wrote:

Okay, so after a good amount of thought, I think I have a method of how resonance would work that will make everyone* happy.

Your resonance? That can be level+Cha (minimum 1). Not many people get a ton of magical items before level 2.

So, first you have your potions. These don't cost resonance. They're low-level self-targeting spells that anyone can use. No real change, except perhaps in cost. Easy and done.

Next, your scrolls. These work just the same as in P1e. No change needed, it serves the purpose of a 'one and done' spell battery. A spell cast on a previous day, frozen in the instant before completion, ready to be unleashed. Again, no real change needed.

Now, your wands. This is where the change starts. Wands are no longer a consumable. Rather, they are a pre-created focus for channeling magical energy. Maybe they stay level-locked, maybe not. Either way, one casting of the spell costs one resonance point, and no more, no less. (Wait! Keep reading!)

Next, staves. They stay fairly similar, holding 10 charges that can be expended later to cast spells, except now, instead of spell slots, you recharge a staff with resonance points. It's a great thing to to at the end of your day off, and you can even use the appropriate number of resonance to cast the spell immediately (if you're really desperate). They're also priced at a reasonable price point, making them the go-to for extra spells per day for a wizard (as it should be)

Then, wondrous items/rings/etc. These each require 1 resonance to use. Wait, wait! Let me explain.
So, say you're a particularly charismatic and wealthy 1st level character and have 3 resonance points. That means, you can be wearing one necklace, a pair of magic boots, and magic armor with no problems, all of which give you some passive bonus. Then, you're cornered and use a wand to magic missile a ghost. Now, you can choose which of your trinkets no longer provides its passive bonus. Now, you just have your armor and boots active. Now, you spend another point...

Or you could just not introduce the new clunky system with all of its ripple effects and just, say, change how wands work.


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I don't know. It's really not that clunky, and allows for more distinction between wands and staves. The biggest changes amount to A: less wand usage and B: you don't have to decide what magic gear you're wearing (or worry about slots) until you actually need to use it.


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And drastically less gear will see use.


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Arssanguinus wrote:
And drastically less gear will see use.

Not really; if anything , more would. The key would be that a lot of magic items don’t use resonance- only those that would currently require a body slot. But with Resonance, you wouldn’t have to decide if you want to wear the amulet of natural armor or the amulet of might fists- you could wear both, even switching which is active if you want to.

Before, if you didn’t have any magic boots, you were missing out on the maximum possible magical item power. Now, if you don’t have any gloves to wear, you can just put on another ring.

The only thing it really handicaps are Wands, but that was the goal along, so...


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
They might not be "Heroic" but preparing for contingencies keeps you alive.
How many of those emergencies do you need to prepare for in a given day? Just leave some resonance open, and you will be fine. If you roll well, you can even keep using them after you're out.

If I knew how many I needed, they wouldn't be for emergencies


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Dαedαlus wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
And drastically less gear will see use.

Not really; if anything , more would. The key would be that a lot of magic items don’t use resonance- only those that would currently require a body slot. But with Resonance, you wouldn’t have to decide if you want to wear the amulet of natural armor or the amulet of might fists- you could wear both, even switching which is active if you want to.

Before, if you didn’t have any magic boots, you were missing out on the maximum possible magical item power. Now, if you don’t have any gloves to wear, you can just put on another ring.

The only thing it really handicaps are Wands, but that was the goal along, so...

From the look of it, just about anything with active uses does.


Arssanguinus wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
And drastically less gear will see use.

Not really; if anything , more would. The key would be that a lot of magic items don’t use resonance- only those that would currently require a body slot. But with Resonance, you wouldn’t have to decide if you want to wear the amulet of natural armor or the amulet of might fists- you could wear both, even switching which is active if you want to.

Before, if you didn’t have any magic boots, you were missing out on the maximum possible magical item power. Now, if you don’t have any gloves to wear, you can just put on another ring.

The only thing it really handicaps are Wands, but that was the goal along, so...

From the look of it, just about anything with active uses does.

I didn't say this is how it is, just that this is what could work.


Dαedαlus wrote:
Next, staves. They stay fairly similar, holding 10 charges that can be expended later to cast spells, except now, instead of spell slots, you recharge a staff with resonance points. It's a great thing to to at the end of your day off, and you can even use the appropriate number of resonance to cast the spell immediately (if you're really desperate). They're also priced at a reasonable price point, making them the go-to for extra spells per day for a wizard (as it should be)

I really like this idea personally


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Dαedαlus wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
And drastically less gear will see use.

Not really; if anything , more would. The key would be that a lot of magic items don’t use resonance- only those that would currently require a body slot. But with Resonance, you wouldn’t have to decide if you want to wear the amulet of natural armor or the amulet of might fists- you could wear both, even switching which is active if you want to.

Before, if you didn’t have any magic boots, you were missing out on the maximum possible magical item power. Now, if you don’t have any gloves to wear, you can just put on another ring.

The only thing it really handicaps are Wands, but that was the goal along, so...

No, the amulet conundrum is removed with ABP and otherwise neutering the Big 6. The boots example is more accurate, but you can't seriously expect players to not value their hit points enough to where they would risk losing their precious character over a few trinkets, no sane player (or character) would do that.

As I've stated before, making players choose between their survivability and their enjoyment is a bad thing, and that's precisely what this system inadvertently fosters.

And as others have stated, if wands are the problem, then fix wands. Don't invent some crazy backwoods system to counteract something that didn't need counteracting in the first place. Crane Wing and the Jingasa are prime examples of stuff that was nerfed just to solve a problem that required very little effort to fix (which was to ban a certain Monk archetype from PFS play, which was eventually done anyway, after they screwed everything up). We don't need a repeat incident with magic items as a whole, and I suspect that's the railroad we'd travel if this was published (mostly) as-is.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The boots example is more accurate, but you can't seriously expect players to not value their hit points enough to where they would risk losing their precious character over a few trinkets, no sane player (or character) would do that.

You only need one point in reserve to ensure you can drink a potion. And magic is not the only way to heal.


KingOfAnything wrote:
You only need one point in reserve to ensure you can drink a potion. And magic is not the only way to heal.

Isn't the "one point for emergencies" thing built into the mechanics too? I think that once you're at 0 resonance, the next thing is going to work, but you roll to see if the one after that is going to work. So if you fail that roll (or once you fail a subsequent roll) you can suggest resting soon if possible.

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