Resonance: what do you think?


Prerelease Discussion

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Exactly, who will wear the High Heels of Spider Climb or their Hijab of Infinite Knowledge if there's only Resonance enough to wear 5 Rings of Elemental Control and an Amulet of Bling. I can guarantuee that Resonance will limit the player's will to use magic items


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To put it another way, what makes you think that limiting a resource is going to make people be more frivolous in its usage?


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Let’s see:

Level 6, 0 charisma.
Resonance: 6

Investiture: 2 points (magic armor, magic shield)
Weapons don’t cost resonance.

4 points remaining.

That seems like plenty for spending on your odd feather token, or to activate the special ability on some other worn item.

Oof. Better hope you don't need to be healed by more than 16 hit points total across the course of the entire game day.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There has been a lot of focus in this thread about what this means for wands and potions, but can we talk more about what this means for replacing item slots?

1. Is it actually an interesting choice to decide in the morning if you want to wear all the cool gear you have OR be able to use some potions if a problem comes up? Does "gear resonance" and "consumable resonance" need to be the same pool?

2. Why should we do book-keeping every morning just to make use of a portion of our hard-earned loot?

3. What does this mean for loot distribution? Is it selfish of a player to hold onto a piece of gear a high charisma player could use, just so they have the option to use potions today and that piece of gear tomorrow?

4. What does this mean for wealth? Gold loses a whole lot of value, because in PF1, getting a heap of gold meant you could buy a ton of magic stuff and rocket upward in personal power. Now it means you can what? Buy a fancy item that immediately replaces an old item that you'd still like to use? Also everyone knew you could spend a fortune on potions if you wanted to, but now that would be extremely unwise.

5. Low level NPCs can't utilize gear. A king's son can't wear the protective equipment his father gave him to keep him alive. Why?

6. Changing equipment during the day. Adventuring could easily have you sweep through a few hoards of treasure in one day and keep moving. Does that mean if you found an item you want to use you have to go home and sleep because you used your resonance?

7. If you never run into resonance limits, why does it exist?

I'm just very concerned that the impacts of Resonance extend far deeper into storytelling, world cohesion, economy and player enjoyment than it would seem on the surface. I dread the day I have to explain to a player that they can't wear the Bandit King's belt until the next day because they don't have the resonance, despite it being very useful right now for defeating his unleashed pet owlbear.

I suspect the answer to a lot of these questions will be "Handwave it!" or "It's no big deal, don't get caught up in the little details." If that's the case, I feel it's not an elegant or even useful system.

Sovereign Court

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Nathanael Love wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Let’s see:

Level 6, 0 charisma.
Resonance: 6

Investiture: 2 points (magic armor, magic shield)
Weapons don’t cost resonance.

4 points remaining.

That seems like plenty for spending on your odd feather token, or to activate the special ability on some other worn item.

Oof. Better hope you don't need to be healed by more than 16 hit points total across the course of the entire game day.

Use a Cure Moderate or Cure Serious, instead. They work better.


Arssanguinus wrote:
To put it another way, what makes you think that limiting a resource is going to make people be more frivolous in its usage?

If I’m a Sorcerer, I’m absolutely going to try to take advantage of my massive resonance pool with cool items rather than just the most functional ones. It’s the 10 charisma Druid/Wizard/Fighter who will be stuck with practical options.


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QuidEst wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
To put it another way, what makes you think that limiting a resource is going to make people be more frivolous in its usage?
If I’m a Sorcerer, I’m absolutely going to try to take advantage of my massive resonance pool with cool items rather than just the most functional ones. It’s the 10 charisma Druid/Wizard/Fighter who will be stuck with practical options.

And you think that is a good thing?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Let’s see:

Level 6, 0 charisma.
Resonance: 6

Investiture: 2 points (magic armor, magic shield)
Weapons don’t cost resonance.

4 points remaining.

That seems like plenty for spending on your odd feather token, or to activate the special ability on some other worn item.

Oof. Better hope you don't need to be healed by more than 16 hit points total across the course of the entire game day.

You don’t know what healing options are available at 6th level in PF2e.


Arssanguinus wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
To put it another way, what makes you think that limiting a resource is going to make people be more frivolous in its usage?
If I’m a Sorcerer, I’m absolutely going to try to take advantage of my massive resonance pool with cool items rather than just the most functional ones. It’s the 10 charisma Druid/Wizard/Fighter who will be stuck with practical options.
And you think that is a good thing?

yep as it makes sorcerer worth his place and power ratter fittingly as lot of fantasy novels its the sorcerer who is the big bad of the book rather then book bound wizard who some how always travel with party and do absolutely do nothing in combat while party bust their asses of to defend him.


Arssanguinus wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
To put it another way, what makes you think that limiting a resource is going to make people be more frivolous in its usage?
If I’m a Sorcerer, I’m absolutely going to try to take advantage of my massive resonance pool with cool items rather than just the most functional ones. It’s the 10 charisma Druid/Wizard/Fighter who will be stuck with practical options.
And you think that is a good thing?

Yeah. They’re making it a lot easier to have higher dump stats, so that 10 charisma is more of a choice now. It’ll be nice to have a high charisma mean something other than through class features, especially if they (sensibly) get rid of options for charisma to everything.


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So yes u think it’s a good thing that the only classes that might be able to use cool stuff are, say, the bard and sorcerer?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

We don’t know what typical stat arrays are likely to look like in PF2E.


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khadgar567 wrote:


Its your table its your rules as far as i know there is no problem for me and few folks i talked. Hell do we have rules for custom magic items or not if you scared that much from rolling few extra dice and int checks. I am realy sorry for your DM as i can sympathize the headache he or she feels every time you play.

Gee, condescending much? What the heck.

Anyway, after giving this system another night's sleep I'm not 100% opposed. Based on what we know now it's a g-d train wreck, of course, but if the problems are fixed I can see the utility of it.

The main problems I still see are 1) single-use items need to be exempt, 2) something has to be done to make it more likely, not less likely, that people will use cool miscellaneous items (though I think addressing #1 will go a long way toward that), and 3) CHA has suddenly surged from the stat most people dump to another stat EVERYONE has to pump (along with CON and WIS), which is actually worse. Of those, #3 is the only one I see that I don't know how to solve.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
We don’t know what typical stat arrays are likely to look like in PF2E.

.

So instead everyone will have high charisma because it will be suicidal not to. What an improvement...


Arssanguinus wrote:
So yes u think it’s a good thing that the only classes that might be able to use cool stuff are, say, the bard and sorcerer?

No. First of all, Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin, and Cleric all have extra uses for charisma. Alchemist sounds like it probably gets special interactions with resonance. Secondly, any character who gets charisma up a little should be freer to get cool stuff. That should be much easier than in PF1- if it isn’t, then I will gladly side with you on this. Finally, it scales with level, so even staunch 10-charisma characters should eventually be free to get some fun things.


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Very few. As you aren’t going to waste your points you need for necessary things on unnecessary items.


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Arssanguinus wrote:
So yes u think it’s a good thing that the only classes that might be able to use cool stuff are, say, the bard and sorcerer?

I think that depends if there's Necessary-But-Not-Cool-Magic-Stuff. I'd rather prefer to get away from that particular paradigm myself.

Sovereign Court

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Arssanguinus wrote:
Very few. As you aren’t going to waste your points you need for necessary things on unnecessary items.

What items do you imagine are necessary? There aren’t many of them, if any exist at all.


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Some things are going to be more useful. Making a limited pool resource governing magic item use is going to restrict rather than enhance the use of anything remotely marginal. It’s practically an inevitability.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arssanguinus wrote:
Slams the door shut on neat items. Who would use up their limited ‘magic item pool’ on them?

Who wouldn’t? Seems like the neatest magic items would be first in line, wouldn’t they?


Bluenose wrote:
Arssanguinus wrote:
So yes u think it’s a good thing that the only classes that might be able to use cool stuff are, say, the bard and sorcerer?
I think that depends if there's Necessary-But-Not-Cool-Magic-Stuff. I'd rather prefer to get away from that particular paradigm myself.

Actually, we have a number on that from an interview. Two items at lower levels, and three at higher ones. One of those is almost certainly a magic weapon, which doesn’t use resonance. That’s one, eventually two, resonance spent on boring obligatory stuff. If you eventually save three resonance for healing, that means at level 5 - charisma mod is when you start picking up stuff more for fun, or start spending resonance for active effects.


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No. The most effective ones would be. There is a difference.


Hythlodeus wrote:
Arakasius wrote:
CLW spamming is an abomination that prevents this game from ever being streamed online. It needs to die.
but who the hell even does that? it seems ineffective and time consuming. also, as GM, just restrict access to wands of CLW and the problem is solved. no need to 4E the s+$# out of PF

I am pretty sure 4e does not even have wands of CLW, and there is certainly no need to spam them. But by all means, do not lets facts get in the way of your edition warring.

_
glass.


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Why do I have this feeling that the dev blogs are about to drop a healing surge or short rest mechanic on us???


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Arssanguinus wrote:
Some things are going to be more useful. Making a limited pool resource governing magic item use is going to restrict rather than enhance the use of anything remotely marginal. It’s practically an inevitability.

Unless the Resonance level is set so high that it literally would only come into play when preventing CLW wand spam, in which case as why have the system at all?


They said that some of the big Sox still exist. What that means is still up in the air. They may have redesigned them so they are either more interesting or less necessary to the game. We'll just have to see the spread of magic items before we can make value judgement on this particular point.


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Albatoonoe wrote:
They said that some of the big Sox still exist. What that means is still up in the air. They may have redesigned them so they are either more interesting or less necessary to the game. We'll just have to see the spread of magic items before we can make value judgement on this particular point.

Will they all be feet-slot items, though?


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Okay I mulled this over. I say it is still absolute garbage of an idea, and someone needs to be sent to the corner for it.

However I did think of a single decent thing that could be made out of it. Body slots are gone, and resonance is used instead. Number of points should probably increase at the lower level. However that is simply a matter of equipping it and nothing more. You still have all the charges of the item. And no consumable items are wearable items. This would solve the issue that some classes don't really have a decent choice for slot X items. The other is that for example outside of niche builds all characters need cloak of resistance as the levels increase unless the GM is softballing pretty damn hard. So as a result, all the cool cloak items never got used because of the massive opportunity cost. This is of coarse made with the assumption that amount of magic items should be limited to some degree. However with all that said, it would be a lot simpler to say "all creatures can have X permanent magical items in use at the same time." Simpler and doesn't create this weird lore implication that is at best silly.


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Arssanguinus wrote:
No. The most effective ones would be. There is a difference.

But you would be choosing to use the one you consider “more effective” rather than the one you consider neat or more fun. Which is rather silly when you consider that a PF1 Adventure Path can easily be completed without coming close to even a modest level of optimization. For example, imagine you’re chasing an extra +1 Attack over using a more utility or narrative-based item. Assuming you make 3 attacks per round on average and the average combat lasts 3 rounds, your +1 to Attack only comes up every other combat on average (turning what would have missed by 1 into a hit 1 out of every 20 attacks). If we are talking AC or Saving Throws, which probably come into play even less than 20 times per two encounters, a +1 bonus matters even less. These items will only actually matter a scant handful of times across the average adventure.

These “more effective” items (think the big 6 items) are not so important to prevent my group from dropping a number of bonuses in order to pick up marvelous pigments, bottles of air, folding boats, or other items that are so much cooler, more interesting, and memorable to the narrative. The “effective” items, even wands of CLW, have so little effect on the final outcome of our campaigns that it would be foolish to chase them over items we consider more fun. Either way, we finish the Adventure Path and on the whole an observer Couldn’t tell the difference (other than one group appeared to use a much wider range of interesting items).


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Yeah, if this is going to limit things like what my character can wear for a day, it's not cool. I can see it being a thing to limit wands, staves and maybe rings but I will rage out (and I rarely do) if this is extended to cover other gear.


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Just basing it off of the Glass Cannon playtest and not reading all of the comments on this thread, the system was confusing to me and seemed really gamey. There has to be a better solution. In my opinion this system is doing the opposite of the stated goals of 2nd ed, which is to streamline and make it easier to teach.

(And why charisma of all things? That is part of what makes it gamey. I can hear the developers saying, "We need to give charisma more to do so people stop dumping it. Ok, let's stick it into this system!" Why not just level+some flat number?)


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If cure light wound wands are a problem, or quaffing cure light potions, the solution should be just to scale their gold cost so that there is a set cost to a d8 heal. (Each d8 heal costs 30 gold, for example. A 50 charge wand suddenly costs 1500. A 2d8 heal costs 60 and the wand costs 3000, rather than making these exponentially more expensive.


WatersLethe wrote:


7. If you never run into resonance limits, why does it exist?

So that a halt can be put on "abuses" (like hitting with a CLW wands 14 times) but still be enough for a normal character adventuring normally.

a 6th level character could have 8 resonance. Say 2 for consumables and 3 for standard magic item use. That leaves 3 for changing equipment, extra consumalbes. Seems fairly reasonble to me.


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Just make the wand a per day uses items and get rid of resonance.


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For the record, since someone mentioned "antisocial characters who are good with magic items" earlier: it seems like the easiest design in the world to create a feat to handle this type of character.

Studied Artifice (General Feat)
Lacking the force of will to drive magic items, you've studied their underlying principles and figured out how to make them work.
Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when determining your available resonance.


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Isabelle Lee wrote:

For the record, since someone mentioned "antisocial characters who are good with magic items" earlier: it seems like the easiest design in the world to create a feat to handle this type of character.

Studied Artifice (General Feat)
Lacking the force of will to drive magic items, you've studied their underlying principles and figured out how to make them work.
Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when determining your available resonance.

That could be an answer. Though I hope its not. I want all classes MAD without SAD work arounds.


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Planpanther wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:

For the record, since someone mentioned "antisocial characters who are good with magic items" earlier: it seems like the easiest design in the world to create a feat to handle this type of character.

Studied Artifice (General Feat)
Lacking the force of will to drive magic items, you've studied their underlying principles and figured out how to make them work.
Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when determining your available resonance.

That could be an answer. Though I hope its not. I want all classes MAD without SAD work arounds.

I feel like the better version of that is just an Extra Resonance feat to the effect of "Get + # extra points of Resonance. This feat can be selected multiple times"

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeeeeeeeeah, I wouldn't really expect many Extra [THE THING] Feats in this edition...


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Or just scrap resonance and make wands a ‘use per day’ item rather than spammable and have a solution which doesn’t break other parts of the game.


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Planpanther wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:

For the record, since someone mentioned "antisocial characters who are good with magic items" earlier: it seems like the easiest design in the world to create a feat to handle this type of character.

Studied Artifice (General Feat)
Lacking the force of will to drive magic items, you've studied their underlying principles and figured out how to make them work.
Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when determining your available resonance.

That could be an answer. Though I hope its not. I want all classes MAD without SAD work arounds.

How does Resonance help make CHA-based characters MAD? If anything it reinforces their SAD.


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Isabelle Lee wrote:

For the record, since someone mentioned "antisocial characters who are good with magic items" earlier: it seems like the easiest design in the world to create a feat to handle this type of character.

Studied Artifice (General Feat)
Lacking the force of will to drive magic items, you've studied their underlying principles and figured out how to make them work.
Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when determining your available resonance.

Considering the Backgrounds (from what I understand) are going to be largely based off of the Traits/Drawback system in P1e, and there was a trait that let you use Intelligence for UMD instead of Charisma, I'd go as far to theorize that it might just wind up being a background option instead of just a feat.


Mustachioed wrote:
(And why charisma of all things? That is part of what makes it gamey. I can hear the developers saying, "We need to give charisma more to do so people stop dumping it. Ok, let's stick it into this system!" Why not just level+some flat number?)

Because Charisma was the stat for Use Magic Device (which Resonance seems to be replacing, from all that I've seen so far), and P1e has developed the trend of Charisma in the context of magic being the stat of using your force of personality to influence magic, like a magical analogue to Strength (with Wis=Con, and Int=Dex).

I posted multiple things justifying this approach earlier and I'd prefer not to repeat myself, but the notion of using Charisma as more than the "how good you are at parties" stat makes plenty of sense, but the fact that previous editions have historically treated Charisma as a sort of "other" category for magic effects hasn't done it any favors.


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Having slept on it, I've come to the conclusion that being mad for five months is a bad idea.

No matter how much people rail about resonance in here, it's going in the playtest, and if actual instances of play don't run into these hypothetical problems anywhere in the playtest then it's probably fine. If those problems show up in the playtest that's when feedback is useful.

Sovereign Court

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A lot of people hand-wringing over their slotless minor magic items.

Resonance replaces slots and charges/uses per day. I think you'll be okay.


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Friendly Rogue wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:

For the record, since someone mentioned "antisocial characters who are good with magic items" earlier: it seems like the easiest design in the world to create a feat to handle this type of character.

Studied Artifice (General Feat)
Lacking the force of will to drive magic items, you've studied their underlying principles and figured out how to make them work.
Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when determining your available resonance.

Considering the Backgrounds (from what I understand) are going to be largely based off of the Traits/Drawback system in P1e, and there was a trait that let you use Intelligence for UMD instead of Charisma, I'd go as far to theorize that it might just wind up being a background option instead of just a feat.

Hmmm... If resonance is pushed out by the devs, I'd probably take that option, however it's shaped, even if I have to shape it myself, then never get to play it because I'm the only DM in any of my groups that strays away from RAW consumption. I just REALLY do not like the idea of all gear usage being tied exclusively to a single stat. Sweet plundered booty is just too important to how my groups play for me to swallow that bitter pill.

That said, if I did take that option, I'd probably passive aggressively grumble about having to sink a feat into a sidegrade, or relying the background system, which was something I did not enjoy in either Starfinder or 5e D&D. But that's really just me being a grumpy b#+%$.
A personal problem that's irrelevant to mass appeal game design.

Now, because that post was kind of bitter, have a Spoonful of Sugar help it feel slightly nicer, and hopefully make your day slightly nicer.
https://youtu.be/_L4qauTiCY4


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Having slept on it, I've come to the conclusion that being mad for five months is a bad idea.

No matter how much people rail about resonance in here, it's going in the playtest, and if actual instances of play don't run into these hypothetical problems anywhere in the playtest then it's probably fine. If those problems show up in the playtest that's when feedback is useful.

That's been my philosophy on the blog posts; I look at the blog to see which feature they're introducing/changing, I look at other people's first impressions and give mine, then I determine whether or not it's something I'm going to keep a close eye on during the playtest. The new action economy seems solid so I'll likely not focus too much attention on it, but seeing as there's the possibility of Resonance being unbalanced and in need of work, I'm going to be putting a fair amount of scrutiny into it, in order to determine whether or not it needs minor adjustments or drastic changes.

Scarab Sages

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I apologize in advance : English is not my main langage and I may be a bit confusing and hard to understand.

First reaction : I don't like it.

I get that CHA need to be more appealing, but I really don't like the fact that the number of magic item usable is tied to it. CHA is skyrocketing to the moon as nearly the most vital stat suddenly.
MAD classes are gonna be a nightmare.
There are many points that this change try to fix/change, so I will try to explain my view on each of them separately.

____________________

I get that CHA needs to be made more interresting, but with this you made it mandatory. Being able to use more magic device per day is way more powerfull than being able to carry a bit more weight in my opinion. Heck, it's just plain sadism to put this things on potions.
"Well, I totally could save you with this fireball scroll but you know I kinda needs my potion after so just die my friend"
Not funny in my book.

Moreover the global concept behind that is that items will "drain your mental stamina" if you try to explain it in the "in game logic" whereas like I saw previously on the thread :

WIS is mental CON
CHA is mental STR

That seems more logical to me, and going this road I would make so that pool of resonance based on CHA would be used to enhance an activable magic item, not to using it. The user can imbue more power because is spirit/soul is fiercer, stronger, more "alive".

Personnaly I also found it more logical since the pool expand with your level because you become more skilled at using things rather than somehow become more "mentaly resilient" with little explanation.

The pool could be "spent 1 point" to improve effect (flat bonuses to dice roll or increased range / duration of the item capability).

Or even drop the pool idea and make a flat permanent bonus equal to CHA modif (Apply anytime but will increase very little since it won't increase with level and there likely will be less stat improvements in PF2)

With these 2 alternative options, in my opinion CHA is way more interresting but not mandatory. If you dump it wou will get a malus at using magic item, and nobody like having -2 to every damage on an item which already deals only 1d6 damage, but it won't prevent you from having a lot of items and use what you need when you need it. You will just be less efficient, like a STR dump made you less efficient at surviving underwater or climbing or pushing that rock to your escape route.

Actions that don't require the character to effectively activate magic (like potions) would not trigger that.

I'm not saying it would be balance or healthy, but I definitely found that less problematic.

____________________

On the wand problem, I have no ideas. Some randoms though that could actually be worse than the problem :

- When magically healed a character has a cooldown before he can be heal again.
- Each time you use an item to heal a character, it cost one more charge. Refresh each day. (Troublesome, Need to track each wand separately)
- Each time you use an item to heal a specific character, it cost one more charge the next time you heal the same character. Refresh each day. (Too much troublesome though, need to track each character anbd each wand)
- Permanent heal does not exist, only temporary HP to patch you up a bit and survive next fight

Some of these might be hard to have an ingame explanation though.

____________________

About the slot I never had a problem with the body slots.
I get that the system is intended to be a disguised "Item Level" so that they can change economy (which was also a "Item Level" system holding you back with absurd prices, making money an hidden XP level for items).

Honestly I don't like "Item Level" but I can't figure a way to not have this, because it would be easy to abuse, unless the GM is ultra cautious on what Items are available at each part of the game. But it can be really hard.

____________________

I get the simplification of having just one number to track so that it would be easier than having 14856 items different time / day uses at remember.

Just for fun I tried to convert my current caracter in this system.
He is level 6 and would need between 10 and 13 Resonance (depending on what fall under "wear" and "wield" categories) to be able to use his items as much as he currently can. Which means +4 or +7 CHA bonus.

Seems ... impossible ? And I am not counting potions.

I guess items would be different so that test is not relevant, but I still found that interresting to note.

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