Resonance: what do you think?


Prerelease Discussion

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Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

If they want to limit potions for some reason, I say go the Whicher route and say that potions are inherently poisonous to most people. If you don’t have the resonance and fail the check you get sickened and up the potion comes. Not entirely serious, but a fun idea.


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Could always bring back the Potion Mixture Horrible Death Chart and see if drinking two potions too close to one another results in your stomach exploding. I rather miss that from AD&D.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Could always bring back the Potion Mixture Horrible Death Chart and see if drinking two potions too close to one another results in your stomach exploding. I rather miss that from AD&D.

It may have been as an April Fools article, but WotC put out a potion miscibility table for 3.5 on their website back in 2006.


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MerlinCross wrote:

15 capes. I'll be the most super of all supermen.

Honestly I expect rings to be the go to item now for terms of "expectation"

Actually both sides can make all sorts of claims but until we see the magic item list, all of this is guess work.

No capes.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
It is still not possible to wear two pairs of magic boots, since you cannot plausibly wear two pairs of shoes at the same time.
Really?

The existence of shoes specifically designed to be worn over other shoes does not imply that you can pick two pairs of shoes at random an wear them both.

If you have a pair of Overshoes of Flying, then sure you can wear them over your Boots of Speed. But if I am GMing, buying or making Overshoes of Flying is going to require considerably more effort than ordinary Boots of Flying.

_
glass.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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From the thread on Proficiency

Jason Bulmahn wrote:


Resonance is not really the topic of this thread, but in all honestly, it is very difficult for a low level character to run out of resonance (which is by design). Mass playtesting might show us otherwise, and we are looking forward to that feedback.

My concern with resonance at low levels isn't for the PCs in a standard game. It's for an unusual NPC if you want to represent a low level but rich prince or merchant who had far more magic at their disposal than a PC would at that level. Right now in PF1, I can deck a 3rd level aristocrat out with 20th level worth of magic for story reasons, but with resonance that sounds unlikely to work.

Similarly, if I wanted to make an adventure where the PCs get unusually high value treasure (perhaps similar to Shattered Star), it seems like resonance will thwart that plot from working. Maybe artifacts don't need resonance (I would hope not), but there's reasons I might want to give low level players some high level gear without it necessarily being artifacts for an adventure.

Finally, while we don't know how technology will work in PF2, and we won't for a while, any in game rationale for resonance seems likely to revolve around your experience in having overlapping magic auras not interfere with each other. If that's your balancing factor, that seems to break down if you introduce laser rifles, gravity armor, and plasma cannons.


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Sounds like perfect scenario for NPC Aristocrat levels which don't add much to power or CR directly but enable more Feats for stuff like Extra Resonance. "Specific Character Concern" seem best met by "Specific Build Solution".


JoelF847 wrote:
My concern with resonance at low levels isn't for the PCs in a standard game. It's for an unusual NPC if you want to represent a low level but rich prince or merchant who had far more magic at their disposal than a PC would at that level. Right now in PF1, I can deck a 3rd level aristocrat out with 20th level worth of magic for story reasons, but with resonance that sounds unlikely to work.

For this particular example, I'd imagine the NPC creation rules will come into play here. It sounds like NPCs will be built differently than PCs. I'd wager a guess that Resonance issues would be addressed in those rules (or at least noted as something to address during the playtest).


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If resonance is the thing that pushes us firmly into the territory of using different rules for players and npcs, I'll light PF2e on fire and never look back.

Also, two posts recommended special rules for rich NPCs which isn't necessary in PF1e, while ignoring the rest of the post talking about high wealth campaigns and high tech campaigns.

Resonance should go before asking everyone to make house rules to accommodate basic things like rich people.


It's already confirmed that GMs have no need to build NPCs like PCs if they don't want to. But that has less to do with resonance than it does with "it honestly doesn't matter what the Baker's attributes are, if the PCs decide to start a fight with the Baker, the Baker will lose badly". Any NPC you want to build like a PC, go for it, but most NPCs won't need this treatment. Honestly, this is how I have always played it, way back to AD&D days.

But honestly the NPC aristocrat will have people to wave wands at him. So resonance is not an issue.

But giving absolutely everybody a full character sheet is a waste of time, effort, ink, and paper.


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WatersLethe wrote:

If resonance is the thing that pushes us firmly into the territory of using different rules for players and npcs, I'll light PF2e on fire and never look back.

Also, two posts recommended special rules for rich NPCs which isn't necessary in PF1e, while ignoring the rest of the post talking about high wealth campaigns and high tech campaigns.

Resonance should go before asking everyone to make house rules to accommodate basic things like rich people.

couldn't agree more. sadly it seems Paizo is hell bent on creating NPCs with different rules than PCs now


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Why are "NPCs not using PC rules" a problem? Like what earthly reason would you need the reflex save or the knowledge (engineering) score for the bartender or the innkeeper? If the PCs want to murder those people, it's not like numbers are going to dissuade them.

Like of all the things people complaing about for PF2 this one is the most baffling. In like 25 years in this hobby I have never built all NPCs using PC rules. How would doing this not be an amazing waste of my time?


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If you define NPC exclusively as the baker, bartender or innkeeper, sure. But the Lvl 7 mercenary who was hired by the evil sorceress to stand guard at the ritual, the Lvl 8 Half-Orc Barbarian who works as a bouncer for the local crimelord, and yes, both the Sorceress and the Crimelord too count as NPC per my definition and I just don't see why I should NOT build them by the same rules as the PCs if an encounter is preplanned in my story.

Also, and I can't stretch that enough, some NPCs have from time to time in the past become new PCs if they were the only ones around in the dungeon or castle or wherever that were neither the PCs nor monsters and one of the PCs died a tragic death. So then they would have to be rebuild as PCs anyway. Better use the same rules in the beginning and it saves you time later on

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hythlodeus wrote:

If you define NPC exclusively as the baker, bartender or innkeeper, sure. But the Lvl 7 mercenary who was hired by the evil sorceress to stand guard at the ritual, the Lvl 8 Half-Orc Barbarian who works as a bouncer for the local crimelord, and yes, both the Sorceress and the Crimelord too count as NPC per my definition and I just don't see why I should NOT build them by the same rules as the PCs if an encounter is preplanned in my story.

Also, and I can't stretch that enough, some NPCs have from time to time in the past become new PCs if they were the only ones around in the dungeon or castle or wherever that were neither the PCs nor monsters and one of the PCs died a tragic death. So then they would have to be rebuild as PCs anyway. Better use the same rules in the beginning and it saves you time later on

But you spend so much extra time on NPCs who in game rules terms exist for about 3 rounds on average.

I’ve had plenty of NPCs graduate to player characters, and no matter their stats I tell my players to build the character how they like, just respect any obvious fiction relating to race/class.


I've been using stripped down NPCs for years when I need to - Scribble down the numbers I reckon I'll need and look close enough to what I want. It saves a ton of time. If they become more relevant I can flesh them out. Players never see the numbers so a little massaging and it's all good if they later become a PC (which has never happened - most players IME want to play their own creations not a hand-me-down).
This just formalises the process a little - which is good if you aren't an old fart like me...


Hythlodeus wrote:

If you define NPC exclusively as the baker, bartender or innkeeper, sure. But the Lvl 7 mercenary who was hired by the evil sorceress to stand guard at the ritual, the Lvl 8 Half-Orc Barbarian who works as a bouncer for the local crimelord, and yes, both the Sorceress and the Crimelord too count as NPC per my definition and I just don't see why I should NOT build them by the same rules as the PCs if an encounter is preplanned in my story.

Also, and I can't stretch that enough, some NPCs have from time to time in the past become new PCs if they were the only ones around in the dungeon or castle or wherever that were neither the PCs nor monsters and one of the PCs died a tragic death. So then they would have to be rebuild as PCs anyway. Better use the same rules in the beginning and it saves you time later on

Well the easy answer to "why" is that building NPCs exactly like PCs is time consuming, cumbersome, and carries a lot of wasted space (IE, neither me as GM nor my players care a whole lot that the merc guard has Perc +10 because he has 3 ranks, wisdom 14, and a racial mod, they care he's +10), especially as you climb the levels. That's why I welcome with open arms that monster and NPC generation is designed to go faster and cut out the extraneous fat from their blocks.

As for the second point, I'm going to go out and say that never happens. Full stop. Even in PF1, NPCs are built on a lower point buy, lower WBL, and if you're playing an AP have some rather questionable design choices. On top of that the NPC has to be something the player actually wants to play, is the right level, and a host of other factors. Suffice it to say, a GM is not just going to photocopy NPC Frank the Paladin's stat block and hand it to the new guy, not without a not-insignificant redesign to accommodate WBL, Point Buy, and the player's own desired build. And at that point you might as well just bump into a trustworthy looking prisoner/stranger.


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I mean, if I did have a situation where an NPC has to take the place of a PC, I would probably just have the player rebuild that NPC in between sessions.

If I'm sending someone with the PCs into a dungeon, with full knowledge that if a PC drops, that person is going to take their place, I'm going to build that NPC as a PC (which is still permitted). It's just that now I don't have to for disposable NPCs. If an NPC is not disposable, by all means print out a character sheet and go to town.

It's not really different in PF1 than how you could build NPCs with PC level WBL, or not, depending on your needs.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Why give neat little skills and other things to flesh out NPCs?

In case PCs interact with them in any capacity outside of murderizing them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Wait, I’m confused. I thought the designers had said that in PF2 (unlike Starfinder) you *can* use PC rules to build NPCs. You just don’t have to — there will also be simplified NPC/monster creation rules that you can use if you want.

Is that not right?


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I don't really care for resonance one bit. Or rather, I don't care for it one bit as they've presented it.

- Using it as a limit is fine, even though PF already has easily understandable limits. But the limit increasing with Level and Cha is just a very bad idea.
- Tying consumables to this limit is an even worse idea. The whole point of a consumable is that you're trading price for one-use. I buy a Potion of Haste because I don't want Boots of Speed. If both items make use of the same resource, the least useful is just going to get dropped. And this is even before the whole "if the coinflip fails your potion is wasted." idiocy.
- Having to attune stuff at the start of the day in addition to the limit is just incredibly dumb. What if I find a magical ring during my adventure and want to put it on? An amulet? Boots? A weapon? Can I do that? Do I have to wait until the next day to "attune"? Conversely, what if I lose an item I attuned during the day? Do I get the points back?
- None of this helps with the biggest problem PF has: a lot of items just aren't worth it. Except, now, it won't be "This item isn't worth the Shoulders slot when I could use X", it will be "This item isn't worth 3 resonance points when I could have X".

Some of this could be fixed, but I question the need for the system in the first place.

As an aside, I've seen people comparing it to Shadowrun's Essence mechanic. This is completely wrong. Essence never gets above 6, it only decreases ,and mostly only at character creation or in very, very rare instances where you fight something with Essence Drain. It is neither as fluctuating as Resonance nor does it have as big an overall impact.

A better comparison would be an Adept's (or Mystic Adept) Power Points, which do increase (though not as much as Resonance). And you know what you run into with Adept Powers? That quite a few of them aren't worth their cost when compared to alternatives, so nobody uses them.


The rich lvl 1 merchant is an odd thing even in PF1, as NPC also have wealth by level.
If you are willing to break the rules for your PF1 NPC, you can do that for your PF2 NPC and give him heaps of resonance if you want to.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:

The rich lvl 1 merchant is an odd thing even in PF1, as NPC also have wealth by level.

If you are willing to break the rules for your PF1 NPC, you can do that for your PF2 NPC and give him heaps of resonance if you want to.

The problem with this is that it's much easier for the players to believe in a rich, low level merchant (he doesn't adventure, but he runs a business and makes money), than a high Resonance low level merchant (is he just more magically attuned? does he have a giant charisma? is he, in fact, not a low level merchant at all?)


TheFinish wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:

The rich lvl 1 merchant is an odd thing even in PF1, as NPC also have wealth by level.

If you are willing to break the rules for your PF1 NPC, you can do that for your PF2 NPC and give him heaps of resonance if you want to.
The problem with this is that it's much easier for the players to believe in a rich, low level merchant (he doesn't adventure, but he runs a business and makes money), than a high Resonance low level merchant (is he just more magically attuned? does he have a giant charisma? is he, in fact, not a low level merchant at all?)

A good merchant in PF1 would have loads of Charisma and ranks in social skills to better his sales pitches. In PF2, that same merchant would be more magically intuned than others simply due to his ability to sell items better than others.

In other words, the rich merchant is highly likely to have more magical prowess compared to one that is poor.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Or we could just let wealth serve the purpose it has all this time: allow access to better gear, as well as niceties, property, and services.

PF1e: Want a high power, magic gear flooded campaign? Allow the PC or NPC to acquire more gold! The WBL chart is explicitly a guideline, there is no hard rule about how much wealth you can have.

PF2e: Want a high power, magic gear flooded campaign? House rule that everyone has more resonance so they can wear whatever they want. How much is enough? What are the ramifications of having more Resonance, besides access to more gear? We'll have to wait to see the answer to those questions.

I don't like game systems that require you to patch the rules with house rules every time you want to take a tiny step off the approved path.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:

The rich lvl 1 merchant is an odd thing even in PF1, as NPC also have wealth by level.

If you are willing to break the rules for your PF1 NPC, you can do that for your PF2 NPC and give him heaps of resonance if you want to.
The problem with this is that it's much easier for the players to believe in a rich, low level merchant (he doesn't adventure, but he runs a business and makes money), than a high Resonance low level merchant (is he just more magically attuned? does he have a giant charisma? is he, in fact, not a low level merchant at all?)

A good merchant in PF1 would have loads of Charisma and ranks in social skills to better his sales pitches. In PF2, that same merchant would be more magically intuned than others simply due to his ability to sell items better than others.

In other words, the rich merchant is highly likely to have more magical prowess compared to one that is poor.

Why though? You can be a good merchant without good Charisma in PF 1. Appraise is Int based, and Profession (Merchant) is Wis based. Diplomacy is Cha based, but an Merchant (IE, an Expert) would have it as a class skill, so even with a +0 Cha the, say, 3rd level merchant would have +6. Not too shabby.

And furthermore, what if he's rich not due to his abilities, but inheritance? What if he's a level 2 Innkeeper who had a rich uncle that died and he inherited a fortune, which he then invested? And then he buys some magical items to make himself better? In PF1, I can give him whatever I want, I just handwave the fortune. My players won't mind. In PF2, if I give such an Innkeeper magic items in excess of Resonance they will wonder how they can use them when they can't.

To give an example of actual play, one of the missions my 6th level players embarked on was escorting 2nd level Aristocrats during a hunt. All of those Aristocrats had magical gear in excess of what they should have, because they were filthy rich. And that was enough. I didn't need to make them all have high CHA, or be more in-tune with themselves, or whatever other thing you have to do to justify them having magic items.


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Why does a merchant need to be decked out in magic items when he's trying to sell those items?

Seems like a pointless complaint to point out a flaw in a system that doesn't exist.

The attachment to consumables presents a problem theoretically for sure, but we haven't seen any magic items yet to really know how it affects the game in practice.


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master_marshmallow wrote:

Why does a merchant need to be decked out in magic items when he's trying to sell those items?

Seems like a pointless complaint to point out a flaw in a system that doesn't exist.

The attachment to consumables presents a problem theoretically for sure, but we haven't seen any magic items yet to really know how it affects the game in practice.

What if he isn't trying to sell them? What if he's paranoid, and thus has magical armor, a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor? Or maybe he isn't paranoid, but he really liked his uncle and he left him these things, so he might as well use them in case he gets robbed? What if he doesn't know they're magical, since, after all, he doesn't have a way of identifying them and no good reason to suspect they are.

My point is, the PF 1 system lets me present all these scenarios (and many more) with a very easily understandable explanation, because the use of magic items is not tied to the intrinsic abilities of the wearer in any way (barring some things like Holy weapons, for example).

In PF2, they are, so it's not nearly as easy or seamless, particularly when it requires the NPC not play by the same rules as the PCs in a way that isn't solely based on money.

EDIT: Incidentally, this just raised another question for me: what if a character doesn't know something is magical? Can they still use it? Can they attune to it even though they don't know it's magical the same way a PF1 PC could slip on a Ring of Freedom of Movement and have no idea what it does until he goes for a swim?


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The king asks the party to escort his son during his first monster suppression campaign. A few appraise checks clues the party in on the fact that he's wearing a sizable amount of the country's gross domestic product in magical gear. "Wait, why can this guy wear so much more gear than us? I bet he's already super high level and this is a trap."


I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?


TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.


Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.

What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?


graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

That's the literal definition of frivolous spending right there. Nobles with so much money and not a care in the world will spend money on "worthless things" simply because they can.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

Because he's the prince and you peasants are not. No matter how much magic bling you have, your superiors will have more and better, even if they can't use it. Because that's the way the world works.

EDIT: Ninjaed by 20 seconds!!!


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That's the literal definition of frivolous spending right there. Nobles with so much money and not a care in the world will spend money on "worthless things" simply because they can.

I can see expensive/stylish/fashionable... Magic when magic is limited though? I think daddy [the king] would insist usable magic go on the bodyguard instead of being useless 'bing' on his son.

I could see this as a joke encounter 'I'll destroy you with my rod of icy death!!!... wait... Why isn't it working?'. As a serious encounter though, I'd hope someone smacks the prince around and lets him know carrying more than you can activate is dumb [unless we're talking about consumables of course].


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Just mark me in the camp of those skeptical of the resonance system as published.

Hmm.. maybe Paizo could do a poll when they unveil something new. Who likes it, who doesn't, etc..?


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Paul Watson wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

Because he's the prince and you peasants are not. No matter how much magic bling you have, your superiors will have more and better, even if they can't use it. Because that's the way the world works.

EDIT: Ninjaed by 20 seconds!!!

But the way the world works now is that the Princeling can have all that stuff, and use it too!

"In your face, peasants! Not only do I have more stuff, that stuff makes me even better than you!" [Insert snotty laugh]

Because that's the other consideration. There is no Resonance in Golarion now. What happened in the interim that everyone is now hardcapped in magic items they can use in a day?


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TheFinish wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

Because he's the prince and you peasants are not. No matter how much magic bling you have, your superiors will have more and better, even if they can't use it. Because that's the way the world works.

EDIT: Ninjaed by 20 seconds!!!

But the way the world works now is that the Princeling can have all that stuff, and use it too!

"In your face, peasants! Not only do I have more stuff, that stuff makes me even better than you!" [Insert snotty laugh]

Because that's the other consideration. There is no Resonance in Golarion now. What happened in the interim that everyone is now hardcapped in magic items they can use in a day?

Could you point up right now one NPC from Golarion that would break Resonance as we know it now?


graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That's the literal definition of frivolous spending right there. Nobles with so much money and not a care in the world will spend money on "worthless things" simply because they can.

I can see expensive/stylish/fashionable... Magic when magic is limited though? I think daddy [the king] would insist usable magic go on the bodyguard instead of being useless 'bing' on his son.

I could see this as a joke encounter 'I'll destroy you with my rod of icy death!!!... wait... Why isn't it working?'. As a serious encounter though, I'd hope someone smacks the prince around and lets him know carrying more than you can activate is dumb [unless we're talking about consumables of course].

Daddy probably already has the guard outfitted, and the Prince wanted some other flashy things that were also magic.

If anything, it would make for an awesome sidequest from the King.

"Sup adventurers, my son is a twit and thinks having all the magic is a good idea. Not only is it foolish, but it is also costing my kingdom a fortune. I've tried explaining to him that he is at risk from assassins, and that he needs to be more cautious, but he is young and naive, and doesn't understand the gravity of his station. Perhaps a little "roughing up" from some "local bandits" might cause him to wise up. Teach him the error of his ways, and I'll see if I can't have a couple of his belongings get "lost" into your hands."


1 person marked this as a favorite.
edduardco wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

Because he's the prince and you peasants are not. No matter how much magic bling you have, your superiors will have more and better, even if they can't use it. Because that's the way the world works.

EDIT: Ninjaed by 20 seconds!!!

But the way the world works now is that the Princeling can have all that stuff, and use it too!

"In your face, peasants! Not only do I have more stuff, that stuff makes me even better than you!" [Insert snotty laugh]

Because that's the other consideration. There is no Resonance in Golarion now. What happened in the interim that everyone is now hardcapped in magic items they can use in a day?

Could you point up right now one NPC from Golarion that would break Resonance as we know it now?

No, because we don't know it at all beyond "Level + Cha Pool" and "Using a charge/potion/scroll costs 1 Resonance".

But, with what we know? Sure. Spoilers for Crownfall below

Spoiler:
Dagio the Great is a wizard 3 with Charisma 08. That means he has 2 Resonance Points. He has a ring of protection +1 (1 Resonance) and a Wand of Shocking Grasp. Per the Resonance rules, he can use that wand once, then it's a coinflip on wether it's useless or not each time. Considering it's his main form of attack (because he only has one magic missile and one acid arrow) it kind of makes him not work.

That's the first one that popped to mind. Without knowing the full rules of Resonance I can't really look for more though.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
"Sup adventurers, my son is a twit and thinks having all the magic is a good idea. Not only is it foolish, but it is also costing my kingdom a fortune. I've tried explaining to him that he is at risk from assassins, and that he needs to be more cautious, but he is young and naive, and doesn't understand the gravity of his station. Perhaps a little "roughing up" from some "local bandits" might cause him to wise up. Teach him the error of his ways, and I'll see if I can't have a couple of his belongings get "lost" into your hands."
graystone wrote:
I could see this as a joke encounter 'I'll destroy you with my rod of icy death!!!... wait... Why isn't it working?'.

Maybe a single encounter overloaded with magic... He'd have to be REAL slow on the uptake to not get it after that. Myself, I think that encounter though runs better if the prince uses the items poorly [forgets command word, aims area effect too close, activated wrong features] as opposed to items just plain not working.


TheFinish wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Why does a merchant need to be decked out in magic items when he's trying to sell those items?

Seems like a pointless complaint to point out a flaw in a system that doesn't exist.

The attachment to consumables presents a problem theoretically for sure, but we haven't seen any magic items yet to really know how it affects the game in practice.

What if he isn't trying to sell them? What if he's paranoid, and thus has magical armor, a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor? Or maybe he isn't paranoid, but he really liked his uncle and he left him these things, so he might as well use them in case he gets robbed? What if he doesn't know they're magical, since, after all, he doesn't have a way of identifying them and no good reason to suspect they are.

My point is, the PF 1 system lets me present all these scenarios (and many more) with a very easily understandable explanation, because the use of magic items is not tied to the intrinsic abilities of the wearer in any way (barring some things like Holy weapons, for example).

In PF2, they are, so it's not nearly as easy or seamless, particularly when it requires the NPC not play by the same rules as the PCs in a way that isn't solely based on money.

EDIT: Incidentally, this just raised another question for me: what if a character doesn't know something is magical? Can they still use it? Can they attune to it even though they don't know it's magical the same way a PF1 PC could slip on a Ring of Freedom of Movement and have no idea what it does until he goes for a swim?

I can answer at least one of these questions: in the Know Direction podcast Erik Mona said they have gotten rid of the paradigm of identifying magic items, as it slowed down actual gameplay and drained resources for seemingly no reason [sic].


TheFinish wrote:
edduardco wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

Because he's the prince and you peasants are not. No matter how much magic bling you have, your superiors will have more and better, even if they can't use it. Because that's the way the world works.

EDIT: Ninjaed by 20 seconds!!!

But the way the world works now is that the Princeling can have all that stuff, and use it too!

"In your face, peasants! Not only do I have more stuff, that stuff makes me even better than you!" [Insert snotty laugh]

Because that's the other consideration. There is no Resonance in Golarion now. What happened in the interim that everyone is now hardcapped in magic items they can use in a day?

Could you point up right now one NPC from Golarion that would break Resonance as we know it now?
No, because we don't know it at all beyond...

I will not count that as breaking Resonance, that NPC still can benefit from all his magic gear, can use his wand for granted one time and after that can still try to used it with a roll.

Do you have another NPC?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
edduardco wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
edduardco wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dead Phoenix wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean if the king's son is level 3 with an 18 charisma, he can equip 9 magic items. I think that is enough to be eyepopping.

If you really want to get the point across, you can give him a golf bag of magic swords since wielded items do not require resonance.

Three things:

1) Wouldn't it be 7 Magic items? (3 level, 4 Cha)
2) Has it ever actually been said that 1 item = 1 resonance? I would be incredibly surprised if that was the case. I imagine more powerful items take up more Resonance.
3) What if I want to make him 10 Cha? Or, god's forbid, 8? Maybe he's just not Charismatic. Why would that have any bearing on how much magic bling he can have?

It doesn't have any bearing on how many he can carry. Only how many he can have active per day.
What reason is there for giving the prince a sword of flaming death if he never has the resonance at the start of the day to turn it on? Or a ring of elemental command or 7 league boots... What's the point in loading him down with things he'll never be able to use?

Because he's the prince and you peasants are not. No matter how much magic bling you have, your superiors will have more and better, even if they can't use it. Because that's the way the world works.

EDIT: Ninjaed by 20 seconds!!!

But the way the world works now is that the Princeling can have all that stuff, and use it too!

"In your face, peasants! Not only do I have more stuff, that stuff makes me even better than you!" [Insert snotty laugh]

Because that's the other consideration. There is no Resonance in Golarion now. What happened in the interim that everyone is now hardcapped in magic items they can use in a day?

Could you point up right now one NPC from Golarion that would break Resonance as we know it now?
No, because we
...

"Show me an NPC that breaks resonance"

"I can't really do that because I don't know how Resonance works fully, but this guy would be in serious trouble with the rules as presented to us."

"He doesn't count because I say so, show me another one"

Honestly dude, I'm not going to trawl through every Pathfinder AP and module when I've already demonstrated it would cause problems in the latest installment of the newest AP. Especially when quite a lot of things with magic items are monsters and I've no idea how HD works with Resonance, if at all.

Paizo Employee Designer

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Zi Mishkal wrote:

Just mark me in the camp of those skeptical of the resonance system as published.

Hmm.. maybe Paizo could do a poll when they unveil something new. Who likes it, who doesn't, etc..?

We're going to do a series of polls throughout the playtest, both general ones and specific to each adventure.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, if you'll accept NPCs from my home brew there's an academy that has suffered continual brain drain over the past 1000 years and now the headmaster, the greatest wizard in the known world, is level 5, but is loaded with all the staves, circlets, robes, rings, and wands he can carry.

The party also fought an evil assassin from a futuristic world who had active camouflage suit, cybernetic legs, healing serums, and other stuff I can't recall all from the technology guide. How much resonance will it take my players to use his rail gun?


Zi Mishkal wrote:

Just mark me in the camp of those skeptical of the resonance system as published.

Hmm.. maybe Paizo could do a poll when they unveil something new. Who likes it, who doesn't, etc..?

This is a decent idea, but I suspect the value gained from it is pretty much useless at this stage. Pathfinder is so complex with so many intertwined rules that until we have the full playtest package in hand to see how everything works together our feedback is mostly just guessing.


WatersLethe wrote:
How much resonance will it take my players to use his rail gun?

Zero, since wielded items don't interact with resonance.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
How much resonance will it take my players to use his rail gun?
Zero, since wielded items don't interact with resonance.

Okay, what about the Chameleon Suit? The cameras, grenades, non-magical healing serums?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am not a fan of the cure light wand spam that occurs in Pathfinder 1st edition. This is one of the most un heroic and boring parts of the game. Everyone stands around and pokes each other with magic sticks. This is just beyond silly so an attempt to fix this issue needs to be tried.

However, I am not sure that resonance is the way to fix that issue. I will wait till the play test to make a judgement.

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