| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking of claws, it would have been nice if...
A)The max damage got up to 3d6 or even 4d6 if you gain only 2 attacks.
B)Gain additional natural attacks, maybe based on animal choices.
C)Can change what kind of natural attack(s) you have.
D)Monk flurry-like mechanic with claws.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd say that just would defeat the purpose of making a spell-less shapeshifting class. At that point you would have even less reasons to not just make a druid or ranger and pick one of their archetypes
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
D on that list is something I felt like the shifter is really missing.
From a "beginner class" standpoint, natural attack rules are kind of annoying at times and having a way to circumvent that would be cool.
And from a balance standpoint those same quirks make natural attack builds incredibly unfriendly to poor optimization. Picking the wrong two hander for your fighter can cost you a couple points of damage per attack, which is annoying and lame but whatever.
Picking the wrong option for natural attack routines can be a lot more devastating though and it sort of shows in the Shifter with how much of a combat gap there is between some forms.
D on that list is something I felt like the shifter is really missing.
From a "beginner class" standpoint, natural attack rules are kind of annoying at times and having a way to circumvent that would be cool.
And from a balance standpoint those same quirks make natural attack builds incredibly unfriendly to poor optimization. Picking the wrong two hander for your fighter can cost you a couple points of damage per attack, which is annoying and lame but whatever.
Picking the wrong option for natural attack routines can be a lot more devastating though and it sort of shows in the Shifter with how much of a combat gap there is between some forms.
Heck, it might be easier to just crib more from monks- give them a full flurry ability, and ditch the natural attack rules.
That would help to equalize the damage from various forms. Single attack builds (like the wolf) could hit as much as many natural weapon ones (like the tiger). Then, the forms would just be able the abilities granted like movement, senses, or weird aspect stuff.
This could again go back to the flavor of the class- they are warriors that wish to focus on mastering their new animal forms. Thus, they could discover how to use their claws and horns as deftly as any monk punches or kicks.
I'd say that just would defeat the purpose of making a spell-less shapeshifting class. At that point you would have even less reasons to not just make a druid or ranger and pick one of their archetypes
That just makes the caster vs melee whinners go at it more.
It just needs more things to make it as desirable as casters.
I totally agree. But I don't think making them akin to a bloodrager would fix much. I mentioned this up thread, but the archetypes all feel like first drafts to me. The main class as well.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Shifter’s problem is that it’s mostly elements of the Feral Hunter Archetype with two shakes of Monk but much less flexible. The increased BAB and one step up on hit die size doesn’t make up for the loss of spells and fewer skill points and class skills.
Also a Feral Hunter’s aspect is unlimited in duration and can be shifted with a swift action to any aspect whereas the shifter gets minutes per day limited to aspects known. And the Feral Hunter gets full wildshape when the shifter gets their limited version of it albeit with some improvements on the limited number of species they can turn into. The fact that the Shifter’s selling point is that it’s highly flexible but one of the classes it took things from is much more flexible is a bit of a head scratcher. (By the way, if their animal companion is dead, even a vanilla Hunter can do this the way a Feral Hunter can.)
Chimeric aspect is one of the few advantages a Shifter has due to having two or more aspects. Unfortunately by the time it comes into play a Feral Hunter can probably afford the gold cost of the magic item that has the same effect. Not to mention with the ease of shifting the Feral Hunter has, he may be able to shift fast enough for it not to matter outside of bull, tiger, and bear for combat.
The other semi unique ability this class gets are the claws that grow in power. Overall, this is again lackluster. For a martial class’s signature offensive ability, no iterative attack with the claws makes them quickly lose their value outside their wild shape boosting ability starting at level 6. Letting a Shifter gain iterative attacks with his shifter’s claws by having one claw used for the main and interatives and the other become a secondary natural attack would be something although that just uses the unchained Monk’s flurry of blows mechanics limited to use with the would be simpler and closer to the power of other classes. Additionally, as someone mentioned earlier, having there claws count as Improved Unarmed Strike for prerequisites would have allow for some fun builds and add some much needed flexibility to this class. Also, how does this ability interact with creatures that naturally have a claw attack like some tengu can?
The one almost unique ability this class has is the Monk AC bonus that is partially retained in armor. This is the one thing I truly like about this class.
As for the other abilities the class gains, I’m not particularly impressed. While they are fitting with the theme of the class, these abilities are bromidic since these are the same abilities the Hunter already inherited from its parent classes. If you’re making a new class, give us something that isn’t part of the vanilla abilities of three classes already. (Especially not three of the most situational.)
Also Rageshaper, also needs to be a way to increase the number of rounds for their shifting. 1 round/level of an ability that takes a full round to activate is laughably short. At fifth level, a Rageshaper needs to last more than one fight a day. Until level 6, an enemy spellcaster can thwart this archetype’s signature ability with a single casting of the spell vanish and sneaking until the devistating form wears off. If you’re going to make another attempt at an archetype for the not so jolly green giant, he needs to last long enough to fully say “[insert name here] smash!” (That said, this is still an improvement on the Brute.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Was thinking about it today.
Could a race that has a natural weapon and then takes Shifter get a 'damage die boost'?
Example: Tengu have a beak (1d3) and can trade out things for two claws (1d4)
Could an improvement be 'allowing the claws feature to boost the die code for one type of natural attack (in this case, beak to 1d4 OR claws to 1d6?)'
That is something that has been bugging me bout the shifter claws. In my opinion the ability should work more like a Bump of die if you have a natural attack bump it up by 1 step (or more at later levels)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was thinking the same thing about catfolk claws and the shifter but since the shifter needs wisdom that is a build that will have to wait for some interesting archetypes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Agreed on that. Running roughshod over the features of a race that would thematically fit Shifter is just poor taste. Claws should either synergize with existing claws or be an option within the class.
|
These Changes so far are a great addition to the class, sure it does not best the Druid in pure duration and power but it makes up for it in utility.
Being able to distribute wildshape uses for different situations is amazing.
A Druid has to think about using his second wildshape use of the day to scout or fight, the Shifter can scout for one hour as an owl and then switch back to tiger for combat and he will still have about 6 uses left.
If I would have to suggest something it would be to allow the Shifter to have one aspect turned on permanently, much like the Feral Hunter, because let's be honest, they are rather similar and trading in 6th level casting for full BAB and wildshape utility seems fair.
This is because some of these aspects are hard to use at the point that they are needed, like the deinonychus and the wolverine.
|
Contributor
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding class-granted claws and races with claws, that was one of the most striking things about Blood of the Coven... a lot of archetypes that granted claws in place of something, but didn't offer anything for changelings. The shifter isn't fluffed to a specific race, but it's still a pretty likely situation.
I think it's something that is worth considering patching in some way, whether via increased damage dice, alternative natural attacks, or some other method.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Too sum up...
Major issues
-Aspects and wild shape- How they work, number of forms, how it should work, and how they function together.
-Natural attacks- Number of attacks, damage, and how they interact with racial natural attacks.
-Class options- Feels like the class is missing some class options/has empty levels.
Minor issues
-Weapon prof.- Is lacking, could use more.
-Class skills- Ones that it doesn't have such as disguise, heal, intimidate, and/or survival.
-Skill points- too low, would love 6+Int like ranger and hunter.
-Charisma AC- Instead of wisdom for AC, you have the option to use charisma.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
-Natural attacks- Number of attacks, damage, and how they interact with racial natural attacks.
Don't forget about claw attacks from other class features, though I believe most of those have the "if you already have a claw attack, it goes up one step in damage dice" line added.
-Class options- Feels like the class is missing some class options/has empty levels.
I think the problem there is that the way the class was designed sort of hid that fact from the developers as well as the players. In the normal chart it looks like it's getting something every level, but when you look at the actual distribution of abilities that PainfulBugger put together with the abilities that are analogous to the Monk's pushed to the side, you wind up with a bunch of dead levels. Same thing with the other abilities, you have a bunch of abilities that scale all the way up to level 20, but that obscures the fact that the class doesn't gain a single new class feature after level 5 (Since Chimeric Aspect and so on is really more of an extension of the base Aspect class feature than an ability in its own right), and of the abilities that do continue onwards only Aspects give the ability to make something relatively unique to the character. Compare that to Wizard or Druid, which get new spells at every other level and a smattering of new minor abilities, or Barbarian/Rogue who have talents at alternating levels, or even just baseline Fighters who get choices in Weapon Training groups and bonus feats. Those classes let you constantly grow and change your character, but a Shifter gets stuck with just a feat every other level and every 5 levels it gets to make a single permanent choice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, as I was writing that I had a thought. Would having the Shifter with full access to Wild Shape (as a Druid of the same level, with whatever duration/uses per day they pick, maybe limited to just animals/magical beasts) who then gains a specific bonus if shifting into their Aspect work? That way they get full access to a range of utility forms/combat forms without being restricted to taking a flight form and the Deinonychus or Tiger in order to function at all, and they still have an incentive to switch to their aspect forms because they get access to special abilities or boons that you can't have in normal Wild Shape, like the Frog's Tongue ability, or just having way better claw attacks as a Bear.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, as I was writing that I had a thought. Would having the Shifter with full access to Wild Shape (as a Druid of the same level, with whatever duration/uses per day they pick, maybe limited to just animals/magical beasts) who then gains a specific bonus if shifting into their Aspect work? That way they get full access to a range of utility forms/combat forms without being restricted to taking a flight form and the Deinonychus or Tiger in order to function at all, and they still have an incentive to switch to their aspect forms because they get access to special abilities or boons that you can't have in normal Wild Shape, like the Frog's Tongue ability, or just having way better claw attacks as a Bear.
IMO, the best way to satisfy the most people is give the class 2 options at 1st: the training wheels version and the experienced player version.
Option one: Pick this option and you get forms like it is now but with full stats included: you take bear and it tells you everything you gain right there and what you gain as you level. This allows the Dev's to customize the forms to be both easy and can adjust abilities from the original for the right power level.
Option 2 is the full access druid form for those that don't need training wheels.
This way it's beginner friendly but not shackled by it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
English is my second language and it is hard to make classes like the druid for me because I need to read through bestiaries and find all the different animals just to play the class. I like the changes to shifter giving it more ability to use wildshape often, but I would not play it if it had druid wildshape.
The thing is, this is not an all-or-nothing situation - it doesn't have to, and should not, be a choice of "strong, difficult Wildshape" and "weak, easy Wildshape".
I think we all agree that a class focussed on one thing should be better at that thing than other classes. One of the biggest complaints about the Shifter is that it's basically a Druid focussed on Wild Shape, but then Wild Shape got nerfed, without gaining anything in return.That means that if the choices for Wild Shape are limited for Shifter, the individual choices should be stronger, i.e. granting things not normally aviable to a wildshaping character. The Wolverine is a good example, but most forms don't do this. Sure, many form gain some bonus feats, but a Druid could select those feats as well, so there is no uniqueness. And in the end, a mediocre bonus feat at 15th that can be used on a full attack just doesn't cut it.
To put it bluntly, every major form that doesn't grant some unigue thing not included in Beast Shape II is a design failure. For isntance, I'm very disappointed that Bat doesn't grant Blindsight.
Of course, the entire concept only works if they include all needed information - if the aspect is lacking attacks or movement forms, one still has to consult the Bestiary.
I'm not entirely convinced by the theory. Particularly as it applies to the Shifter - removing the Major Aspect concept and letting the Shifter pick forms on the fly as the druid does would remove "character shaping choices", but also make the class both move effective and flexible. Probably add "dead levels" too.
Once you look at my theory as a part of class design, rather then a stand-alone concept to be used instead of other guidlines, the "dead levels" part actually supports my theory. Yes, making strong and flexible characters without character shaping choices is possible, but in doing so, you'll probably create a character that a) is too powerful and flexible, b) is too weak, and/or b) has lots of dead levels.
Giving the Shifter straight Druid style Wild Shape also leads to a class that is a strict downgrade from Druid, i.e. a class that completely breaks the other class design guidelines I quoted in my first post in this thread.
IMO, the best way to satisfy the most people is give the class 2 options at 1st: the training wheels version and the experienced player version.
Option 2 is the full access druid form for those that don't need training wheels.
That's too weird as regular choice à la Domain/Animal Companion, but it could work as an Archetype - kinda like what Primalist is for Bloodrager.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I eagerly await the inevitable Shifter archetype which trades away all shapeshifting and thus completely refocuses the class in a different direction, like how the Metamorph Alchemist doesn't do Alchemy, how the Ectoplasmatist and Phantom Blade Spiritualists don't have a phantom, or how the Feral Hunter doesn't have an animal companion.
That's too weird as regular choice à la Domain/Animal Companion, but it could work as an Archetype - kinda like what Primalist is for Bloodrager.
That feature was what I was thinking of. You get 3 options, domain, companion or herbalism: the shapeshifting options seem more closely related than those. Picking less forms that have been simplified but strengthened seems balance against versatility.
I eagerly await the inevitable Shifter archetype which trades away all shapeshifting
LOL I want to play a shifter that does this! Maybe gain a mount and gun [I'm a Poacher!]. Or a companion that you shapeshift instead of yourself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So you want a shifter archetype that turns you into a monstrous humanoid and until you find true love you have to remain a "beast";)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So you want a shifter archetype that turns you into a monstrous humanoid and until you find true love you have to remain a "beast";)
It kind of makes more sense than wyrmwood that turns into an ooze only to learn to change into a halfling a few hours/day... :P
I figure a shifter archetype that never invokes Beast Shape (or similar) but gains universal monster abilities in their regular old form would be fun.
I figure a shifter archetype that never invokes Beast Shape (or similar) but gains universal monster abilities in their regular old form would be fun.
That's close to replacing wildshape with evolution points. It'd just require making a list of "universal monster abilities" and assign point cost and level requirement.
Derklord summed up my hopes on the Shifter in that a class focused on shapeshifting should be better at it than any other class. I think this class has great potential and definitely will fill a fun niche if revised.
I want to thank Jason for being so open about the class and the need to make some changes. I also want to give a thumbs up to all the people on this thread who are putting forth thoughtful, interesting ways to make this class as fun to play as Pathfinder's other classes (I don't have a head for the type of deep analysis many of you have done with the class so kudos!). Looking forward to seeing what a revised Shifter looks like.
Jason - any thoughts on ideas posted thus far? Do you envision further adjustments to the Shifter?
Giving the Shifter straight Druid style Wild Shape also leads to a class that is a strict downgrade from Druid, i.e. a class that completely breaks the other class design guidelines I quoted in my first post in this thread.
While that is true, the Shifter is kind of shackled to it from a very basic conceptual level isn't it? It either has a shapeshifting ability completely divorced from Wild Shape, which can generate needless complexity if it has to include rules for how it interacts with Wild Shape or other shapeshifting abilities on top of being a downgrade compared to the Druid (mostly because Wild Shape is just so comprehensive of an ability), or it has the Druid's full Wild Shape ability and is still considered a downgrade because spells significantly beat out the class abilities.
At least in the second case though it's still a decent shapeshifter.
I eagerly await the inevitable Shifter archetype which trades away all shapeshiftingLOL I want to play a shifter that does this! Maybe gain a mount and gun [I'm a Poacher!]. Or a companion that you shapeshift instead of yourself.
The archetype already exists. It is the elementalist shifter.
This archetype CAN shape shift into elementals... but it is a major hassle to do so. This is because their main damage mechanic is a rather nice amount of elemental damage that is added onto their attacks, but that ability was written so it couldn't work with 'polymorph effects'.
Thus, your main damage mechanic cannot be used with the titular mechanic of the class. You reserve shifting purely for the times when you need some movement speed, such as flight from the air elemental. Otherwise, it is a complete hassle that you are better off without.
But the archetype seems like it is more functional than the main class- it gets to switch between several elemental damage types, so it doesn't get caught by resistances too much, and it is enough average damage to be compared to the cavalier's challenge (6d6=~21).
So you can just grab a scimitar and go whacking away (and since the wildshapes don't have very good natural attacks, adn the elemental strike trades away claws, you are actively hampered in using natural attack builds).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The archetype already exists. It is the elementalist shifter.
That archetype seems to be made the same way as the oozemaster: to actively punish you for wanting to be an ooze elemental. As such, I'm looking for an archetype where I'm not punished... :P
Now if they just remove the mostly useless 'vestigial' class ability to change into a elemental for something else, it'd fit that theme. Heck, replace 'wildshape' with a scaling move/resistance that matches your aspects and it'd be a 1000% better. [and be easier to understand!]
I feel like a Shifter archetype that gains "immunity to polymorph effects" as part of it's suite of powers would be the funniest way to do a "complete deviation from the basic concept."
Not only do you not want to polymorph into an Ooze or an Elemental, you literally cannot turn into anything save for a different version of yourself.
The archetype already exists. It is the elementalist shifter.That archetype seems to be made the same way as the oozemaster: to actively punish you for wanting to be an
oozeelemental. As such, I'm looking for an archetype where I'm not punished... :PNow if they just remove the mostly useless 'vestigial' class ability to change into a elemental for something else, it'd fit that theme. Heck, replace 'wildshape' with a scaling move/resistance that matches your aspects and it'd be a 1000% better. [and be easier to understand!]
Yeeepp. Still a bland on a level to level basis, but it would be more functional.
Instead, it curretly works like elemental body, but doesn't work like elemental body, and only really works like elemental body in a way that appears to rob you of your main damage mechanic.
Still, I like having a multi-elemental melee character that uses actual weapons- it has actual options if it faces a monster that resists it. Kineticists are a bit too.... light saber-y for a lot of flavors (I'd say it is a bit too 'high magic', since they zoom around at high speeds and constantly shoot lasers), and kineticist doesn't get enough elements to play well with elemental stuff (you get three slots, and you also have to deal with the choice of physical blasts).
That, and diverging elements can feel like a sink of resources/attention for kineticists. It can work, of course, but you have to go out of your way. Elementalist shift is designed to get all the elements without trading anything- you just pick the order, and getting a new element is just an addition of options.
A simple removal of the polymorph restriction and turning the elemental forms into just movement options would work. Maybe a +1 to attack for every element, since elementalist actually has to deal with iteratives (this would put it on par with a cavalier that flanks with its companion).
Resistances seem like a better minor aspect than the current 'can be replaced with a belt' ones. A selection off resistances seem like a good pick for something that you can put on for minutes/day and apply on the fly.
Director of Game Design
|
| 26 people marked this as a favorite. |
As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.
We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.
You can find those changes right here.
I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.
Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.
A thousand faces! Sweet! And at-will Form abilities at 20th (though minor still should have been at-will long before then, I'll take it)
While it would have been nice to get it a bit earlier than the druid, we continue to get steps in the right direction, which I do appreciate, but I'm hoping we can eventually get a Shifter that isn't outclassed by a Druid in most Shapeshifting aspects.
A question about the shifter's edge it has the line,
"a natural attack augmented by your claws"
What does this mean? If I turn into a bear and my shifter's claws are 1d4 and bypass magic. Does shifter's edge ALWAYS apply to both claws and the bite since they gain the ability to bypass magic from shifter's claws?
OR Does shifter's edge only apply if you're subbing out the damage for your shifter's base meaning it'd only apply to the claws and only when they are using shifter's claw damage?
Also tying into the current Shifter’s Fury ability is this just that is can't use bigger base or does it lose all ability to bypass DR?
Also when you uses shifter's claw base for subbing are you supposed to say mouse does 1d4 and bear does 1d4 since that's what my shifer's claws normally are. OR are they 1d4 shifted down for size with mouse and 1d4 shifted up for size for bear?
Does an oozemorph get Shifters Fury, or is it replaced through one of their class features?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.
We have also put out an errata on the Oozemorph Shifter, covering some common questions with that archetype.
You can find those changes right here.
I want to thank all of you for your continued thoughts on this class. I also want to thank the vast majority of you for remaining civil and productive in these discussions.
Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
Paizo Inc.
I'm updating the class table: New Shifter Class Table 2.0
As promised last week, we have made a few more adjustments to the shifter, adding a few abilities to cover up some empty levels on the class, and giving it a few boosts to its ability.
*two thumbs up!* Much faster than I thought, kudos!
Oozemorph: looks good for clearing up fluidic body. It's a workable archetype now.
Shifter Major Forms: As assumed, but good to see. If possible, I'd like to see a full stat block to avoid having to look in multiple places.
Shifter Wild Shape: Nice. Shifter’s Fury gives single attack forms a needed boost and give options to other forms. The 18th and 20th abilities are nice but not something I'm likely to ever see in play.
That both fixes issues and causes one of the good ways to play an Oozemorph to go away.
How so? It makes it clear that "it loses abilities dependent on form": this should have no impact on change shape abilities like skinwalkers, kitsune and reptoids. SLA/SU abilities should be intact.
Does an oozemorph get Shifters Fury, or is it replaced through one of their class features?
Fluid Form: "This replaces chimeric form, greater chimeric form, wild shape, shifter aspect, and all improvements of shifter aspect."
Shifter’s Fury isn't currently listed so, yep!.
Cool! Shifter's Fury should go a long way to making Forms with single big natural weapons viable. I'm looking forward to running the numbers vs. the dino-tiger-bull shifter build that people identified earlier.
I believe they are referring to the "oathbreaker" build that maintains Ex abilities and a stable form by telling the code to go stuff itself.
That both fixes issues and causes one of the good ways to play an Oozemorph to go away.How so? It makes it clear that "it loses abilities dependent on form": this should have no impact on change shape abilities like skinwalkers, kitsune and reptoids. SLA/SU abilities should be intact.
I didn't think about that. Ok, that makes sense then. I honestly didn't expect that 'loophole' to survive review so I didn't have it in mind.