Changes to the Shifter


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Dark Archive

"That location is called Axis.

However, it does not appear to be related to the discussion topic at hand, so perhaps a re-direction of conversational energies in a polymorphic direction is in order."


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So...spurred by other peoples efforts.
My re-write of Fluidic Form.......

Fluidic Body (Ex) An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight. An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type from her race for the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as bane weapons and a ranger’s favored enemy). In this form, the oozemorph is immune to critical hits and precision damage and can’t be flanked. However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body. An oozemorph reverts to this formless state whenever she is unconscious or in an area of antimagic..
This replaces chimeric form, greater chimeric form, shifter aspect, and all improvements of shifter aspect.
Fluidic Form (Su): At first level, an Oozemorph can use Fluidic Form a number of times each day equal to her shifter level + her Constitution modifier. An oozemorph can assume a humanoid form and transform as if using alter self, except the oozemorph can maintain the form for a number of hours equal to her level. To maintain the form beyond that, each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 1 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form.
Ending this transformation after extending it's duration reverts the oozemorph back to her ooze body and renders her fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the number of hours she maintained the form.
At 5th level, the oozemorph can transform as if using beast shape I or Monstrous physique.
At 7th level, she can treat this ability as beast shape II, or Monstrious physique II.
At 11th level, she can treat this ability as giant form I.
At 13th level, she can treat this ability as giant form II.
This replaces wild shape.


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nighttree wrote:
However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.

May want it to be

wrote:
However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body; however any attuned magic items retain their attunement to her.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It may be silly but the idea of an oozemorph (and I've brought this up before) gaining 'mastery' of their liquid self to be able to emulate 'other oozes' would be a better step than 'beast shape/etc'.

Black pudding, Gelatinous Cube, etc, etc...


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


It may be silly but the idea of an oozemorph (and I've brought this up before) gaining 'mastery' of their liquid self to be able to emulate 'other oozes' would be a better step than 'beast shape/etc'.

Black pudding, Gelatinous Cube, etc, etc...

Maybe we can get an archetype to the archetype that allows you to actually morph into oozes. Myself, I'd like at will change shape into a jello-like humanoid form [no change in abilities but removes penalties like casting, speaking, holding, use magic items, ect] and while sleeping, knocked unconscious, ect returns to ooze. The leveling up shapechanging then could be ooze types for hours per level.

This allows 1st level viability while keeping an actual ooze theme: the current mechanic of changing into non-ooze forms seems to play against the theme IMO.

Dark Archive

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Shifter, as it is currently seems like a druid that gave up level nine casting for a 1/4 BAB boost, and d2 more hit points. These are not equal. You can currently make a better shifter with druid. You keep level nine casting. You have better buffs, better utility, better everything. Better wild shape. Why even make shifter the way it is. It brings nothing to the table. To me shifter needs to have more options for wild shape.
Combine the oozemorph fluid shape with the current shifter shape. Open up "more" options for forms as you level. Allow the shifter to shift into new forms without using wildshape as long as the duration is still ongoing. Give the shifter bonuses to disguise based on level. Allow the shifter to use abilities of the form they assume that normally are not available to wild shape.
In other words make a class that is new, fresh, and finally cannot be made by feat choices by a druid.


graystone wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


It may be silly but the idea of an oozemorph (and I've brought this up before) gaining 'mastery' of their liquid self to be able to emulate 'other oozes' would be a better step than 'beast shape/etc'.

Black pudding, Gelatinous Cube, etc, etc...

Maybe we can get an archetype to the archetype that allows you to actually morph into oozes. Myself, I'd like at will change shape into a jello-like humanoid form [no change in abilities but removes penalties like casting, speaking, holding, use magic items, ect] and while sleeping, knocked unconscious, ect returns to ooze. The leveling up shapechanging then could be ooze types for hours per level.

This allows 1st level viability while keeping an actual ooze theme: the current mechanic of changing into non-ooze forms seems to play against the theme IMO.

Ya....two very different approaches. And the class flavor meets one....while the mechanics tend to lean towards the other.

I'm building this off of what the mechanics favor....an Ooze that is focused on learning to become a human.


Seeing a more complete list of abilities that have been added on, I have hope that the archetypes can get some work on them too.

I really hope the elementalist shifter can trade away some of the extra abilities like shifter's fury in order to get more cool stuff. Hopefully things that would allow them to remain a cool elemental knight kind of deal.


nighttree wrote:
I'm building this off of what the mechanics favor....an Ooze that is focused on learning to become a human.

Oh, I can understand that, but if I'm going to dream I might as well dream big and shot for what I actually want.

lemeres wrote:
I really hope the elementalist shifter can trade away some of the extra abilities like shifter's fury in order to get more cool stuff. Hopefully things that would allow them to remain a cool elemental knight kind of deal.

For me, why not 'steal' off the Kineticist for a start?

Replace Defensive Instinct with one of the element’s defense wild talent that matches your first Elemental Aspect. [maybe add a scaling burn use for bonuses only].

Replace track with: gain the basic utility wild talents that match your Elemental Aspect.

Replace Woodland Stride with hurl element: while using Elemental Strike, you may pantomime strikes against a distance foe. In place of a normal melee strike you may make a ranged touch attack dealing only the additional energy damage from Elemental Strike. treat this as a thrown weapon attack with a range of 20'. Example: a 5th level elementalist using hurl elements would deal 2d6 damage and make a ranged touch attack at -2 because of it's in the second range increment.

Replace Trackless Step with Glide and scaling bonus to fly while using the air minor aspect, Gain a scaling swim speed and hold breath ability while using water minor aspect, Gain scaling climb speed while using earth minor aspect, Gain a scaling bonus to land speed while in fire minor form.


graystone wrote:
lemeres wrote:
I really hope the elementalist shifter can trade away some of the extra abilities like shifter's fury in order to get more cool stuff. Hopefully things that would allow them to remain a cool elemental knight kind of deal.

For me, why not 'steal' off the Kineticist for a start?

Replace Defensive Instinct with one of the element’s defense wild talent that matches your first Elemental Aspect. [maybe add a scaling burn use for bonuses only].

Replace track with: gain the basic utility wild talents that match your Elemental Aspect.

Replace Woodland Stride with hurl element: while using Elemental Strike, you may pantomime strikes against a distance foe. In place of a normal melee strike you may make a ranged touch attack dealing only the additional energy damage from Elemental Strike. treat this as a thrown weapon attack with a range of 20'. Example: a 5th level elementalist using hurl elements would deal 2d6 damage and make a ranged touch attack at -2 because of it's in the second range increment.

Replace Trackless Step with Glide and scaling bonus to fly while using the air minor aspect, Gain a scaling swim speed and hold breath ability while using water minor aspect, Gain scaling climb speed while using earth minor aspect, Gain a scaling bonus to land speed while in fire minor form.

Well, defensive instinct actually works well for the elementalist- you get 1/2 wis (you are a low will class; you need that anyway) and the scaling bonus to AC appears to be separate. So a moderately invested shifter likely gets +7 AC in the end- rather nice when you consider the fact that it is on top of your regular armor. The only kineticist option that really sounds like a good trade for that would be the earth's DR (...admittedly, earth is already one of the best elements for the elementalist- acid and all).

The ranged elemental strike would not really be as necessary if the major for wild shapes were just a minute/level movement option (flight would let you just go up to the thing).

I would be a bit wary about going with kineticist stuff as an elementalist- but this is mostly a persnickety flavor thing for me (I like that the elementalist is a relatively mundane elemental sword user; kinetcists are rather high magic/'light saber'-y).

I can't deny that the fly bonus would be useful though.

Personally, I would prefer some kind of elemental summoning thing- they are not necessarily flashy, but they are on enough summoning lists so it is easy to scale, and they can work well as flank buddies. Maybe make it a bit more like the cavalier and get some teamwork feats into that.


Y'know, with the new ability to make iteratives a flame elemental shifter could actually probably get away decently with fighting in elemental form, assuming you houserule fix the DCs of burn.

Still not amazing, but at least playable unlike the last version.


swoosh wrote:

Y'know, with the new ability to make iteratives a flame elemental shifter could actually probably get away decently with fighting in elemental form, assuming you houserule fix the DCs of burn.

Still not amazing, but at least playable unlike the last version.

Yeah, but the elemental strike still doesn't work with the polymorph effects of wild shape, as far as I am aware. Elemental strike also replaces the shifter's claws (which would otherwise apply to the elementals' slams for stuff like DR).

So you are still fairly much encouraged to go with your base shape to get 6d6 extra damage.

Sovereign Court

I'll post again to get more visibility, but does Shifter's Fury make your non-iterative natural attacks lose the DR penetration of Shifter's Claws?


lemeres wrote:
Yeah, but the elemental strike still doesn't work with the polymorph effects of wild shape, as far as I am aware.

Yep... You can use the elementals slam multiple times but the base is fairly unimpressive. You should deal more damage with a single two handed attack with elemental strike than a 'flurry' of slams as an elemental. [unless you spend wealth on natural weapon attacks vs manufactured magic weapons

So shifters flury makes combat as an elemental suck less but doesn't stop it from sucking... :P


graystone wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Yeah, but the elemental strike still doesn't work with the polymorph effects of wild shape, as far as I am aware.

Yep... You can use the elementals slam multiple times but the base is fairly unimpressive. You should deal more damage with a single two handed attack with elemental strike than a 'flurry' of slams as an elemental. [unless you spend wealth on natural weapon attacks vs manufactured magic weapons

So shifters flury makes combat as an elemental suck less but doesn't stop it from sucking... :P

And that forces me to question whether I should just drop my sword, shift, and pick it back up as an elemental.

Shifter's fury is fantastic when you are dealing with pure natural attacks, like the wolf. But even without the archetype, I would tend towards using weapons (for easy iteratives, material, crit range, and easy enhancement) since this deals with elementals- since real elementals are allowed to use weapons if they have a humanoid shape.

And the elementalist facilitates such a style, since it trades away the claws I would not plan to use. Now, if there wasn't such a divorce between the damage option and the movement options, this would be a really great archetype.


lemeres wrote:
And that forces me to question whether I should just drop my sword, shift, and pick it back up as an elemental.

If you're going to buff natural attacks, you might as well go unarmed and that way you aren't required to 'drop' anything.

lemeres wrote:
But even without the archetype, I would tend towards using weapons (for easy iteratives, material, crit range, and easy enhancement) since this deals with elementals- since real elementals are allowed to use weapons if they have a humanoid shape.

For me that doesn't make a lot of sense: you're paying for a weapon AND for enhancements to natural weapons. So you're paying for a weapon AND a necklace...

lemeres wrote:
And the elementalist facilitates such a style, since it trades away the claws I would not plan to use.

IMO weapons makes sense only when both form can use weapons [monkey, weretouched, elementalist]. Without that thought, it really doesn't make sense to Mighty Fists AND a weapon when you can use only one in both forms.


graystone wrote:
lemeres wrote:
But even without the archetype, I would tend towards using weapons (for easy iteratives, material, crit range, and easy enhancement) since this deals with elementals- since real elementals are allowed to use weapons if they have a humanoid shape.
For me that doesn't make a lot of sense: you're paying for a weapon AND for enhancements to natural weapons. So you're paying for a weapon AND a necklace...

I am not. I am saying that I would not switch to natural attacks as an elementalist- the archetype itself appears to discourage it (you cannot use the elemental strike while wildshaped, and you do not receive any natural attacks outside of wildshape). And I agree that a two enhancement item system would be awkward and not worth it.

Under my assumptions for the elementalist gameplay: I usually go around as a human(oid) with a scimitar and doing elemental strike. When the circumstances call for it, I would take actions so I could continue to use my well enhanced sword while wildshaped (this would be the awkward 'drop and pick up' bit). Then I would just use the weapon as the elemental.

My assumptions abandon natural attacks, even when wildshaped- because, as noted above, you are discouraged from doing natural attacks. I suppose an unarmed build could work (because the elemental strike a fairly decent bonus on every hit), but the class doesn't support it much. So I just intend to use a scimitar, mostly.

A focus on weapon use has other advantages- I would not need an amulet of mighty fists, and I could just get an amulet of natural armor instead. That way, the defensive instincts are a class feature that builds up the character, rather than playing catch up since I am missing one of the big 6. Thus, I am going about with extra bonuses to AC equal to 1/2 wis with a scaling bonus up to +5.


lemeres wrote:
But even without the archetype, I would tend towards using weapons

My comments in my last post where focused on this: "even without the archetype". As I mentioned [also in the last post], I understand weapon use for "[monkey, weretouched, elementalist]".

My issue was with "even without the archetype"... For the majority of those, the issues I brought up seem valid IMO.


I can't even figure out how "Shifter Fury" works....anyone think they can explain ?

Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?


graystone wrote:
lemeres wrote:
But even without the archetype, I would tend towards using weapons

My comments in my last post where focused on this: "even without the archetype". As I mentioned [also in the last post], I understand weapon use for "[monkey, weretouched, elementalist]".

My issue was with "even without the archetype"... For the majority of those, the issues I brought up seem valid IMO.

Ah, I mispoke there. "Even without the [weird features of the] archetype". That is closer to what I meant.

Even without the ban involved with elemental strike and the removal of shifter's claws, I would tend towards weapons when I was an elemental. I often like to make 'I can't believe its not goliath!' vanlilla druid builds.


nighttree wrote:

I can't even figure out how "Shifter Fury" works....anyone think they can explain ?

Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

If I'm parsing correctly, your Full Attack will look like

>Morphic Weapon +6
>Morphic Weapon Iterative +1

...and I don't know if you'd even get to use your other Morphic Weapon (or second Claw for non-Archetyped) unless you had claws from another source. If we guess you can though, that would be

>Morphic Weapon 2 +1

and with 1/2 Strength to damage because of Secondary Natural Weapon penalties.


Shinigami02 wrote:
nighttree wrote:

I can't even figure out how "Shifter Fury" works....anyone think they can explain ?

Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

If I'm parsing correctly, your Full Attack will look like

>Morphic Weapon +6
>Morphic Weapon Iterative +1

...and I don't know if you'd even get to use your other Morphic Weapon (or second Claw for non-Archetyped) unless you had claws from another source. If we guess you can though, that would be

>Morphic Weapon 2 +1

and with 1/2 Strength to damage because of Secondary Natural Weapon penalties.

That's more or less how I'm reading it....so a distinct step down from going TWF.....:(


nighttree wrote:
Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

Main morphic weapon: +6/+1

Second morphic weapon: +1 [1/2 str].


nighttree wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
nighttree wrote:

I can't even figure out how "Shifter Fury" works....anyone think they can explain ?

Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

If I'm parsing correctly, your Full Attack will look like

>Morphic Weapon +6
>Morphic Weapon Iterative +1

...and I don't know if you'd even get to use your other Morphic Weapon (or second Claw for non-Archetyped) unless you had claws from another source. If we guess you can though, that would be

>Morphic Weapon 2 +1

and with 1/2 Strength to damage because of Secondary Natural Weapon penalties.

That's more or less how I'm reading it....so a distinct step down from going TWF.....:(

This is why if they are going to go this path for it; they should just make it more like Flurry of Blows with Shifter's Claws (or what it replaces). Otherwise it is kind of weak, and only benefits a few of the aspects. They gave it to the Monk Menhir guardian archetype with their claws (and specific prof of that archetype which are the "druid weapons"), so no reason not to give it to the Shifter class too. Would be more to make it feel like the Monk + Druid hybrid it seems they were going for, with adding defensive instinct.

Shadow Lodge

graystone wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

Main morphic weapon: +6/+1

Second morphic weapon: +1 [1/2 str].

Hey, look, my post from earlier, just by you. It's a wonder the question keeps getting asked with multiple explanations. ^-^

Thank you for the help though, Graystone.


Roivan wrote:


This is why if they are going to go this path for it; they should just make it more like Flurry of Blows with Shifter's Claws (or what it replaces). Otherwise it is kind of weak, and only benefits a few of the aspects. They gave it to the Monk Menhir guardian archetype with their claws (and specific prof of that archetype which are the "druid weapons"), so no reason not to give it to the Shifter class too. Would be more to make it feel like the Monk + Druid hybrid it seems they were going for, with adding defensive instinct.

You make a good argument and this would seem to be a pretty easy fix to make the class more competitive with other melee type classes. If we can get this change and those dead levels filled with useful abilities or feats, then this would be a fun class to play.


Emageht wrote:
Shifter, as it is currently seems like a druid that gave up level nine casting for a 1/4 BAB boost, and d2 more hit points. These are not equal.

Druid is a tier 1 class, there is no way the Shifter could possibly reach that. Even tier 3 would require getting SLAs from Wild Shape (Something like being able to wildshape into Summoner Nature's Ally creatures.).

The target for Shifter should not be "as good as a Druid", but "as good as other martials", i.e. tier 4.

Alchemaic wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Giving the Shifter straight Druid style Wild Shape also leads to a class that is a strict downgrade from Druid, i.e. a class that completely breaks the other class design guidelines I quoted in my first post in this thread.
While that is true, the Shifter is kind of shackled to it from a very basic conceptual level isn't it?

Is it, though? How many different forms do Wildshape Druids actually take? Three animals for the different sized (Deinonychus/Dire Tiger/Allosaurus), a small form for scouting, and maybe a flyer. The rest is very situational.

The basic combat form can be done with a single scaling Major Form, so most of the time, having only like three aspects is enough. The situational forms can easily be replicated with an ability, below.

It is possible to turn the Shifter into a powerful, flexible, and interesting to play (all for a martial, of course) class that abides by the "designing classes" guidelines even with keeping the current chassis!
Step 1: Make something cool and unigue out of every major form (like Wolverine's rage+powers).* There's no reason to limit the major forms to what the Beast Shape spells grant.
Step 2: Make the minor forms worthwhile. Can mostly be done by granting a slightly limited form of the unique thing the major form grants.
Step 3: Grant some cool class feature that aren't copy pasted from the druid to increase versatility.**
Step 4: Pop quiz every writer on the "designing classes" section in the ACG (and my character shaping choices concept) before they're allowed to write classes to prevent such desasters in the future.

*) Abilities could be something like Blindsense (short range for minor, larger range for major) for Bat, Pounce for Tiger's minor form, unique poisons (that are actually worth it) for Snake, and so on. Minor forms could also grant movement types.

**) Example: "At 12th level, the Shifter can turn into a major form not selected once per day. Staying in such a form expands one hour of wild shape as normal, after which the Shifter reverts back to her base form. At 17th level, she can use this ability twice per day."

One could specialize their Shifter according to their campaign, and the new ability can help out for that moment where you really need a burrow speed or something. Might even have a lower version for minor forms granted at 7th level.
There are a lot of levels that could use new class features once you stop counting crap like "+1 average damage to one of your attacks". Shifter's Fury is also useless to multiple forms.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
you complete your training, read the right scrolls, or however one gains the first level in their class

You gain your first level by stepping into the tavern the party meets in.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
"Since Darlene became an Ooze, she can no longer attend festivals since she turns into a puddle before they end, so no one will dance with her and she can't bob for apples"

And now we've finally answered the question of "Who's the worst person to have in a mosh pit?"!


This is more to the Devs so maybe they can shed some light on what they were thinking when they built the archetype.

For the Elementalist Shifter; what was the logic behind them not getting their Elemental Strike in Elemental form?

For the fire elemental's burn ability you list no DC. Does this mean use the DC 14 from a medium fire elemental? or should it be the 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Stat like most abilities for PCs are? if they're not able to get their main damage strike (the Elemental strike ability) in an elemental aspect; they should at least base the DCs off their HD as most abilities do.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Mark Seifter wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
MuddyVolcano wrote:

Dear Paizo,

Thanks so much for the shifter update. I have faith in you!

What would it take to get a Corgi Aspect added to the list, even as just a blog post?

Thanks!

Faerie Mount / Corgi

The aspect of the faerie mount invokes a magical corgi from the First World (see Adventure Path #119: Prisoner of the Blight for more details), renowned for their loyalty and bravery. Those who take this aspect have the power of Calamity at their fingertips.

Minor Form: You gain a +4 competence bonus on saves against fear. At 8th level, this bonus increases to +6, and at 15th level, it increases to +8.

Major Form: Your shape changes to that of a fey mount (Prisoner of the Blight). While in this form, you gain low-light vision, scent, a 40-foot base land speed, and a bite attack (1d6 damage), and you gain a +4 racial bonus to CMD against bull rush and trip. At 8th level, you gain Nimble Moves as a bonus feat as long as you are carrying no more than a light load, and you gain a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking with scent. At 15th level, you gain Improved Natural Attack (bite) and your critical multiplier with your bite attack increases by 1, to a maximum of x4.

Omigosh. Where do I send the cookies. XD

And thank you! :D

I think in the past people have sent baked goodies to Paizo's address on the contact us page on the site, but I think it's been a year or two since the last time.

Update! Lissa and I just opened a box marked with both of our names containing some B&W corgi art, colored pens, and many many homemade cookies. We will be sure to share them with the others at the Paizo office. Thanks Mysterious Cookie Backer! (MCB)

Shadow Lodge

That's cool.


graystone wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Say Im 6th level with two morphic weapons.....what does my attack action look like ?

Main morphic weapon: +6/+1

Second morphic weapon: +1 [1/2 str].

A level 6 Oozemorph (which has 3 Natural Attacks so should qualify for Multiattack) could manage:

Shifter's Fury Morphic Weapon: +6/+1 1.5xStr
Other Morphic Weapons +4/+4 .5xStr

I think. I'm not sure if that's better than not using Shifter's Fury and just getting +6/+6/+6 and 1.5xStr on all of them.

Shifter's Fury seems more suited to the unarchetyped Shifter, who can manage pretty good attacks with their claws, they just wish they could make more claw attacks. I don't think the Oozemorph wants much to do with it Shifter claws get better as you level, whereas morphic weapons just get more numerous.


PossibleCabbage: 1.5 damage is for having a single natural attack and not for having a single kind of natural attack form. As such, an oozemorph NEVER gets 1.5 as it starts with 2 natural attacks: it's 1 or .5 for secondaries.

Second, the question was a 6th level with 2 attacks so that was how I answered.


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I bet the MCB is muddy volcano.

The corgi stuff is cool enough to deserve it though.


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willuwontu wrote:

I bet the MCB is muddy volcano.

The corgi stuff is cool enough to deserve it though.

It will forever be a mystery!

<dons apron and dashes away!> :D

(And yes, and everything else they do. The corgi made my players happy, and that is what counts. :3)


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This class idea still suffers from the core problems: considerably weaker than the other martial classes, worse at its own main focus written into the class’s description of flexibility than an archetype of another class, and a ripping of other class abilities and shoddily stitched onto the Shifter to create this flesh golem of a class. And this does not even touch on the messy design of the archetypes that clearly was not edited enough since several loose abilities that are part of later abilities that are not replaced.

The addition of Shifter’s fury helps. While on its own not a immense power boost, but it fixes one of the most glaring problems in the class design. However, thousand faces and timeless body at 18th level are poor choices to fill an empty level since again they’re just more highly situational abilities blatantly ripped off the Druid class. These changes are a nice start, but overall I believe them to be only the first steps of many needed to bring this up to the high standards I’ve come to expect of Paizo’s usual output. I understand Paizo’s fear of power creep and want an easy class for new players to pick up, but this class has is short on unique features to make to stand out against the crowd of unique classes in turns of power nor flavor. The unfortunate effect is that this class feels more like an underpowered archetype of the Hunter or worse, a NPC class version of the Hunter than a PC class.

Perhaps the most frustrating part of the Shifter’s design for me is that most of its class abilities are cut and paste from the Druid and Hunter. Rather than developing new abilities for this class, most of the class’s abilities are either exactly from one or both of these other classes or are a watered down version of something from these classes. It makes the Shifter feel like it was created in a last minute rush to get the book out on time rather than a well though out and internally tested. Combined with the way the archetypes are written, the class is a sloppy unbalance first draft that I would expect to see published by a 3rd party, not by Paizo’s themselves.

For something partially unique, how about at some point Shifters get the shapechanger subtype so they can gain some of the situational benefits they have such as easily removing baleful polymorph. It’s been established that the oozemorph archetype adds a subtype, why can’t the main class. If the designer’s are worried it’s a power boost, it’s not even that large a bonus since the benefit is fairly situational and there are even cases where it can be a drawback. (Favored enemy, several cases of shapechanger bane weapons, wards triggered by shapechanger, etc. that show up in areas that lycanthropes and other were-creatures live.) But it’s something that two other classes don’t already have. If they’re willing to give the class a small but needed shot in the arm, a bonus against unwanted polymorph effects like an alchemist gains for poison would be unique and thematically fitting. I would think the same focus needed to take the proper form of the creature they want to would help a Shifter keep from shifting into a form she doesn’t want.

I still find the single aspect known at 1st level to be severely limiting for a class that is described in the class role as “fluid in form and function.” As I stated in an earlier post this claim of flexibility is dubious compared to the parent class knowing all aspects at 1st. Removing this limitation on the number know would significantly increase this classes flexibility while only slightly increasing the complexity.


Painful Bugger wrote:
Player Killer wrote:
Painful Bugger wrote:

Whoops! Posted this in the wrong thread!

Hey guys I went and collected all the changes and errata that The Shifter went through and applied it to the class. Basically it's a single document you can refer to when you want to look up the Shifter without referring to various different sources until all the changes are final. I'll update it as more updates roll on through. I'm debating adding the errata'd archetypes to the doc.

Here's the link for you to view at your leisure: Updated Shifter.

This is very helpful! Thank you Painful Bugger.

You're very welcome.

graystone wrote:
There is no human FCB listed in that document.

Thanks for the catch, I just copy pasted that section since nothing changed for them and missed the humans.

willuwontu wrote:
Here's a link to a table calculating the Str modifier applied to attacks for shifter's fury.

Good to have some free fan-made, newly-adjusted (from the officially-Pathfinder sanctioned rulings in this thread) Shifter stuff out there. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:

Update! Lissa and I just opened a box marked with both of our names containing some B&W corgi art, colored pens, and many many homemade cookies. We will be sure to share them with the others at the Paizo office. Thanks Mysterious Cookie Backer! (MCB)

Pics or it didn't happen!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Latrans wrote:
Perhaps the most frustrating part of the Shifter’s design for me is that most of its class abilities are cut and paste from the Druid and Hunter. Rather than developing new abilities for this class, most of the class’s abilities are either exactly from one or both of these other classes or are a watered down version of something from these classes.

I would have likewise preferred a class which brought something fresher to the table. And perhaps at some point we'll see a Shifter alternate class -- like the Ninja was for the Rogue -- which does this.

But to help manage expectations, remember that any updates they make will need to fit in the physical book when Ultimate Wilderness is reprinted. So the revised class needs to have the same word count. And thus the only abilities they can add (without cutting other abilities to make room) are ones they can describe in a sentence or two. That's either abilities that are very simple, or abilities that have already been described elsewhere (i.e., abilities cribbed from other classes). So while the desire for a lot of fresh new abilities is understandable (and one that I share), it's not something they can easily do.

In a similar vein, when making suggestions, it might be helpful to focus more on the question "how can Paizo improve the Shifter while keeping the wordcount the same?" Because this is the question they're actually facing.

(And to forestall some potential replies: Yes, if they'd had a playtest, they might have seen the need for more room ahead of time. But they didn't, and the question they're facing is how to best move forward now. And No, they can't cut other content from Ultimate Wilderness to give them more room for the Shifter. Because some people will already be using that other content, and so it still needs to be officially supported (i.e., appear in the book).)


And at that point, it feels like they need more space in the book. There's little doubt they could fit much more in the book without rephrasing everything regarding the shifter. Though I would like a little more feedback as to what's being worked on.


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Three new UW FAQs!

FAQs wrote:

Animal Ferocity: The ferocity prerequisite of animal ferocity seems to do what the feat does and more? How should it work?

Animal Ferocity lets you take a full attack while disabled, but all attacks are at a –5. You can’t take any other full-round actions aside from full attack (for instance you can’t charge or cast a spontaneous metamagic spell). This will be reflected in the next errata.
Skirmisher Fighter: The skirmisher replaces weapon and armor proficiencies with a new set of armor proficiencies. Does that mean it isn’t proficient in any weapons?
No, it should only replace armor proficiencies. This will be reflected in the next errata.
Oozemorph and Items: I know I don’t have any item slots as an ooze, but what about items that take 24 hours to attune? Can I just never use those items?
An oozemorph can carry items floating in its mass that are considered to be attuned. When it turns into a humanoid form via fluidic body, it can equip any number of those items (even armor, which usually takes time to don), leaving the rest on the ground in its space. If it turns into a animal via fluidic form, the items meld into the new form and grant some passive benefits, as normal for polymorph effects.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They could open up their physical page space limit a lot by totally removing Major Aspects. Give them straight up Druid Wildshape with hour increments and call it good. *Then* they could add a whole bunch of unique features.


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Okay, I'm pretty stoked now that my Oozemorph can attune magic items now. That's some great news.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That... is a useful adjustment to the oozemorph and makes them a bit more survivable.

Awesome.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


That... is a useful adjustment to the oozemorph and makes them a bit more survivable.

Awesome.

'

Ya....that one I am glad to hear.
At least if your starting a game at around 6th level, it's playable now.

If they gave it a similar treatment to duration of fluidic forms (Alter self aspect) it would be playable from 1st level.

Something like level + Con mod hours per day would make the most sense, retaining the ability to extend a specific form by making the Fort save to extend it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, does that mean that an oozemorph needs to have magic clothing or have a party member carry their clothing?

It calls out only attuned items being carried in the Jello.. Would a Handy Haversack with all the stuff in it work, or does it require something like a belt, headband, etc?


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I read that as "you can carry items, and this counts for purposes of attunement" so if you have a particularly snazzy but in no way magical hat, you can have it floating in yourself while you're oozy and you'll be wearing it when you grow a head.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That would be a much friendlier read than my brain went to, and would make it kind of amusing.

"Is that the King's scepter in there?"


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I read that as "you can carry items, and this counts for purposes of attunement" so if you have a particularly snazzy but in no way magical hat, you can have it floating in yourself while you're oozy and you'll be wearing it when you grow a head.

that's the way i read it.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


That would be a much friendlier read than my brain went to, and would make it kind of amusing.

"Is that the King's scepter in there?"

I guess the question I have is: does the oozemorph have any control over its opacity or coloration when it's an ooze? I'm probably inclined to just go with whatever's funniest, honestly.

I'm just not sure what's funnier "people can see what you're carrying just floating there" or "you can just blend in with the drapes".

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...also, how many people are going to make grey-green oozemorphs?

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