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This sort of stuff goes on with classes like Warpriest, Magus, Shaman, Hunter, Oracle...you get the idea. The fact of the matter is that Full BAB is not such a defining feature that it should be compensated with the gimping of the class' other features as a result.What part of 'not sufficient' was unclear? I'm not arguing Shifter has sufficient advantages as compared to, say, Inquisitor or that what they lose for Full BAB is worth the gain...I'm saying that both full BAB and their stat ups are meaningful and useful class features and saying they aren't is silly and counterproductive.
They just aren't meaningful and useful enough to actually either make then Class especially fun or on par with any casters.
They aren't very useful or meaningful in general, to be quite honest. A Paladin or Barbarian can still be very deadly with only 3/4 BAB. However, the original point is doubly true for the Shifter, who uses a combat style that doesn't give two damns about their BAB. The Druid is a prime example of this, and they're a 3/4 BAB class that doesn't get much in the way of offensive buffs outside of their Wild Shape granting added Strength and Damage Dice.
I played a Jack-of-All-Trades Druid (who had a high Casting stat and a decent Strength score) that wild-shaped into a Dire Tiger, had VMC Barbarian for Rage, plus Power Attack, with a dip in UCMonk for the wild-shaped defensive benefits (and non-wild shaped offensive benefits), and when I was 7th level, I took an enemy who was 2 hit dice above me, and shredded them into pieces in the first round of combat, doing something that even our UCMonk character (who was the only full BAB party member) couldn't do.
If I was more optimized for melee, I could probably shred enemies 3 HD/CR above my own, and I'm only a 3/4 BAB class without many offensive buffs. Tack on a significantly higher Strength score (at least another +2 to attack and damage per natural weapon), and I can easily see it happening (even if at the cost of my spellcasting/defensive capabilities). The BAB helps, but it's staggered over the course of 20 levels, and it's basically a wash between any potential buffs I could utilize.
Point is, BAB is almost pointless for a natural weapons combatant. I'm more worried about them having a 40 Strength across 5+ attacks than having Full BAB.
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So.. get rid of full BAB (change to 3/4) and replace with 'at will' Aspect of choice from L1(no duration length), Major at L2(no duration length), and hour/level duration Wild shape with no restrictions @L4 seem like a good fix?
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I for one don't see why they didn't just mimic the 3.5 Warshaper. Seriously, go look it up. It just gained the ability to give itself whatever kind of natural attacks it wanted, and as many of them as it wanted. I wonder why they didn't just say: The shifter can create a single natural weapon at 1st level for which it has the appropriate limb. It can create additional natural attacks at X level, and each X levels thereafter, to a maximum of X.
That way, it would've scaled, at a similar but faster pace to base attack bonus. Heck, they could've gone another step further and had Shifter Hide morphs, allowing you a variety of defensive and utilitarian buffs a shifter could take, switching them as standard, moves, or full-rounds. The shifter, in my mind, seems almost like a were-beast class (and one of the archetypes touches on this), except that it chooses to take on a variety of features of different creatures. The iconic art definitely conjures that image to mind.
I would do additional natural attacks at 4th, and every 4 thereafter, have Shifter natural attacks start at 1d4, up to 1d6, and finally 1d8, and have defensive abilities that do things like give Natural Armor, bonuses to various skill checks, flight, swim, and climb, a Dodge bonus, and maybe even damaging variations, like Rend, Pounce, Grab, etc. for different builds.
Then you can have archetypes focused on wild shaping directly, and all the other stuff they've already done. But then, you know what they say about hindsight.
So.. get rid of full BAB (change to 3/4) and replace with 'at will' Aspect of choice from L1(no duration length), Major at L2(no duration length), and hour/level duration Wild shape with no restrictions @L4 seem like a good fix?
It's a start, but you'll need more than that to properly fix the class. Full BAB reduction isn't a necessity as long as they are given appropriate features to compensate, and I'd only consider the reduction if they're given more offensive capabilities to compensate (such as having the Attribute bonuses to their stats from Aspects untyped and stacking with Wild Shape benefits, and maybe having each Aspect grant one type of attribute bonus; I'd need to consider this for a more appropriate response).
I'd consider the Wild Shape duration being hours/level (with an At-Will capstone as the Druid would have, being able to be in a form indefinitely, and being able to shift between forms as a Standard Action), with the option to divvy up its uses in 1 hour increments (and shifting between forms immediately ends that hour's worth of usage, starting on their next hour's worth of usage upon assuming the new form). This gives the Shifter the much needed versatility to set them apart from other Shapeshifting classes by having more flexibility for their main feature, without the whole "I CAN DO ANYTHING AT ANY TIME" scare that Paizo clearly wanted to avoid in the early levels, as well as the generic overshadowing of Druid Wild Shaping.
I'd also be sure to clarify the wording for this new type of Wild Shaping to function as the original Wild Shape for both feat requirements and feat effects that key off of it (such as Shaping Focus if they dip into Barbarian, or Natural Spell if they take levels in Druid for spellcasting utility, to list a couple examples), using their Shifter level as their Druid or Caster level, respectively. (I'd need special wording for stacking Druid/Caster Levels in the event of dipping, but that wording eludes me at this time...)
I'll need to review what all of the Minor and Major aspects do, but you'll probably want to tweak them around more, and make them more impactful, while also watching for potentially broken combinations as compensation. This would probably be the biggest overhaul needed.
I'd also tack on a 10th level option that gives them a second set of Claw attacks with their Shifter Claws at -5 (though this can only be done if they use only their Shifter Claws to attack), and maybe allow this effect again at -10 for an added 20th level capstone.
This makes their offensive capabilities more functional without having to resort to typical combat forms (such as Tiger or Deinonychus because LOL5NATURALATTACKSPOUNCING). Sure, it's not as flexible as the typical combat forms, but this makes them less attractive as a whole, and better rewards players who want to instead be a mouse or a falcon or a snake or...whatever, who have less natural weapons (but have other forms of utility, such as stealth, flight, secondary offensive effects, and so on).
As a slight tangent to the above, I'd tack this rule similarly on to Morphic Weapons for Oozemorphs, where they can compensate attacks gained from Morphic Weaponry to instead apply an additional attack to their existing Natural Weapons at -5 (with each additional attack applied to a given Natural Weapon incurring an extra -5, similar to how iteratives function currently with BAB).
This makes Morphic Weapons usable across forms that already grant Natural Weapons without overpowering their overall offensive capability, while still granting the ability to outright make new weapons on forms without Natural Weapons with full benefits.
For all purposes, you just turned it into a Druid archetype at that point.
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If I were playing a Shifter, which I'm not, I'd dip into Monk for Menhir Guardian's Wild Flurry. Or just ask my DM to let me use Wild Flurry. Or possibly ask my DM why they're not letting me play a Feral Hunter, but I digress. Seriously, look at this.
Wild Flurry (Ex): A menhir guardian gains flurry of blows. He can use this ability with the natural attacks provided by his shifter claws ability or the weapons specified above under weapon and armor proficiency.
Why didn't they just give that to the regular Shifter? It solves... I dunno, about one-fourth(?) of the problems with this class.
If I were playing a Shifter, which I'm not, I'd dip into Monk for Menhir Guardian's Wild Flurry. Or just ask my DM to let me use Wild Flurry. Or possibly ask my DM why they're not letting me play a Feral Hunter, but I digress. Seriously, look at this.
Wild Flurry (Ex): A menhir guardian gains flurry of blows. He can use this ability with the natural attacks provided by his shifter claws ability or the weapons specified above under weapon and armor proficiency.Why didn't they just give that to the regular Shifter? It solves... I dunno, about one-fourth(?) of the problems with this class.
How does that solve anything? It's prolly one of the worst class features ever...
At level 10 this would be your attack routine in a flurry:
+8/+8/+3/+3
While claw, claw, bite gore does the following:
+10/ +10 / +10 / +10
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For all purposes, you just turned it into a Druid archetype at that point.
To be fair, the Shifter probably didn't warrant a whole new class in general, since a Druid is basically a Shifter+ as it stands, and isn't even that complex to begin with. Occult classes are more complex, and that's because they introduce all kinds of new mechanics, several of which are poorly explained, or are just pointless rehashes of existing material made different because [reasons]. The same concept applies to the Shifter with their Aspect rules, which are poorly explained with some aspects, and other aspects being just plain pointless in comparison to what's already out there (Druid Wildshaping).
Quite frankly, the Shifter should've just been a (crappy) Druid archetype, with all of the existing Shifter archetypes being more (crappy) Druid archetypes being thrown into the existing giant pile of garbage archetypes that Druid is very plentiful of. (Yes, Druid has some good archetypes, yet they are few and far between to outweigh all of the junk that's out there.)
But if I remember correctly, they already treaded this sort of ground before (Druid archetype focused on Shapeshifting than spellcasting), so I don't think they'd have done that unless they wanted to republish existing options with tweaks to make them more palatable (AKA nerfed into oblivion).
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If I were playing a Shifter, which I'm not, I'd dip into Monk for Menhir Guardian's Wild Flurry. Or just ask my DM to let me use Wild Flurry. Or possibly ask my DM why they're not letting me play a Feral Hunter, but I digress. Seriously, look at this.
Wild Flurry (Ex): A menhir guardian gains flurry of blows. He can use this ability with the natural attacks provided by his shifter claws ability or the weapons specified above under weapon and armor proficiency.Why didn't they just give that to the regular Shifter? It solves... I dunno, about one-fourth(?) of the problems with this class.
That would be my fix....or one of them at least....
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If I were playing a Shifter, which I'm not, I'd dip into Monk for Menhir Guardian's Wild Flurry. Or just ask my DM to let me use Wild Flurry. Or possibly ask my DM why they're not letting me play a Feral Hunter, but I digress. Seriously, look at this.
Wild Flurry (Ex): A menhir guardian gains flurry of blows. He can use this ability with the natural attacks provided by his shifter claws ability or the weapons specified above under weapon and armor proficiency.Why didn't they just give that to the regular Shifter? It solves... I dunno, about one-fourth(?) of the problems with this class.How does that solve anything? It's prolly one of the worst class features ever...
At level 10 this would be your attack routine in a flurry:
+8/+8/+3/+3
While claw, claw, bite gore does the following:
+10/ +10 / +10 / +10
But you still have your claws when you're in human form, and you can invest in your claws with feats like weapon focus that aren't going to help your gore or bite.
Like unless my experiences are *really* atypical, the whole "the tiger can't talk" thing is going to lead to shifters being humanoid almost all the time.
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Or being completely animal for the entire length of their Junior Edition Wild Shape and unable to communicate because they need to save their money for enough magical items to compensate.
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What I would do to fix the underpoweredness of the Shifter is to A) make their Minor Aspects permanent but chooseable between like a Feral Hunter's, B) give them more uses of Wild Shape to start with and At Will as a Capstone, C) give them some Bonus Feats
A) Makes some of the options not redundant or useless like the Ability Uppers or the Initiative Bonus respectively.
B) Gives them the ability to shift more often and doesn't gib their uses for shifting during battle. Could switch hours and uses around so that its uses per level and giving more hours every other level. (Sure that makes it so that you only get 8 hrs a day per form if you wanted, but it also gives you 20 shifts a day at max, and 5 uses for 1 hr each at minimum. I'd say its a MORE than decent trade, and one that seems perfect for the class' Limited Wild Shape.)
C) Would just be a nice additional bonus that almost all other Martials already get use of.
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Magic Skull Games created an earlier version of this type of class called the Shapeshifter in the Grimoire Viperian.
MSG's shapeshifter can assume any animal form similar to wildshape, plus alter self, the ability to assume certain magical beast forms and at higher levels giant form and dragon form.
It also has favored forms (which can be changed at certain levels), special form powers which you can pick and choose, and monstrous aspect abilities.
A variety of special shapeshifter only feats are also available to further customize your character. Rules are also included to allow shapeshifters to take certain druid and ranger-related feats that fit the shapeshifter's bestial theme. BAB and hit points are the same as a druid.
That being said, I really like the Paizo shifter concept, as well. The full BAB and d10 hit points are nice, and the mechanics are different, exploring the idea from a slightly different approach. The natural claws thing definitely seems Wolverine-ish, which I like. ;) I really like how Paizo provides so many different options for character creation.
Ultimate Wilderness is definitely worth picking up a copy, IMO, for all the extra options and good content for both players and GMs.
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NoTongue says it. At this point the only thing that can save the Shifter is a revised Shifter (blog post or revised PDF).Eh, I like it for the opportunity it allows to play a Beorn-like character without a heck of a lot of perusing multiple sources.
So, for that purpose, I don't think the Shifter even needs to be saved.
Have you considered that could have been a well made archetype to the shapeshifter everyone wanted ?
Am I reading it right that picking Owl aspect gives you Flyby Attack as a bonus feat but not a fly speed?I see no way to read it any other way.Oh wow. Just. Wow.
EDIT: A Medium sized Owl doesn't even exist, so it's literally impossible to know what speed you get. 10/10 right there. This is what happens when you release a class without playtesting it first. Though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this class wasn't even edited prior to release.
Actually, it does. See page 181 (as is referenced in the Owl aspect on page 30) and look at the Starting Statistics for 'Owl, Giant'.
No editing situation there, just lack of reading.According to the d20pfsrd, Giant Owls are listed as Huge Sized Magical Beasts. I don't see another entry, so please link it if you can.
That said, if they added a new entry for "Giant Owl" and didn't realize that a creature already had that name, then that only proves my point further. 10/10.
Uh, the reason I refer to page numbers is because all of that information you are wanting 'linked' is in Ultimate Wilderness. Look at the pages listed and bold.
Have you considered that could have been a well made archetype to the shapeshifter everyone wanted ?NoTongue says it. At this point the only thing that can save the Shifter is a revised Shifter (blog post or revised PDF).Eh, I like it for the opportunity it allows to play a Beorn-like character without a heck of a lot of perusing multiple sources.
So, for that purpose, I don't think the Shifter even needs to be saved.
Could have been.
But have you considered there are those that like the shifter anyway? I am one of them. Are there ways of doing it better? Sure, with a lot of prep time and perusing multiple sources which your GM may not be happy with including....It all depends on preferences and playing styles. Don't criticize those. That is a slippery slope and one unbecoming of gamers.
Sure, with a lot of prep time and perusing multiple sources which your GM may not be happy with including...
That SURE sounds like the shifter... Yes the amazing class that managed to INCREASE the minimum number of books you need to play a shapeshifter, even one the restricts the forms changed into to one...
Shifter isn't your class if you don't want to have to pull out multiple books and prep before hand. I'm not saying you shouldn't "like the shifter anyway", just questioning your your reasoning on shifter being the easy/simple way to accomplish it. ;)
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CRB, Bestiary, Ultimate Wilderness, Ultimate Equipment, Ultimate Campaign, Advance Race Guide = 6 books you need to complete with the warrior NPC class as a shifter
VS
CRB, Bestiary = 2 books you need to be one of the most powerful druids in the game.
Yeah shifter is real noob friendly /s
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Hey everyone, some of you might want to check out the Skin-Changer...That does certainly sound interesting to me. I have a couple questions about it, if that's okay:
Does it have a limited number of animal forms it could choose to take? And could you give a little bit more info about the talents? To be more specific, are they similar to talents/discoveries/etc of the base pathfinder stuff or something else entirely?
Sure!
The Skin-Changer does not have a limited number of animal forms it can take, but it does of course have a limit to the number of times per day he can do this. This ability scales quite nicely as the Skin-Changer gains levels, including things like attacks while in animal form being treated as magical attacks, gaining cool bonus feats, bonuses to hit and damage etc while in animal form.
Talents are similar to discoveries, yes. The Skin-Changer has some similarities to the Spell-less Ranger, which has a host of Ranger Talents to choose from. The Skin-Changer gains a similar group of talents.
Quick follow up - the book is now available!
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...doesn't help for those folks tied to only being allowed to use Pathfinder/Paizo material (ie, no 3PP allowed in PFS).
Noble effort, though!
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...doesn't help for those folks tied to only being allowed to use Pathfinder/Paizo material (ie, no 3PP allowed in PFS).
Noble effort, though!
What the bird said ;)
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So I've got another idea for a build. This time, it involves a high strength build with a focus on using a Scythe. You want to get heavy armor proficiency and a dragonscale plate to keep your powers. The idea is that you go Stag and Bull for your aspects.
Boom. Good AC that scales up with Defensive Instinct, a pretty good weapon that makes use ofyour full BAB, free Strength to save money, and the Stag aspect to help deal with the movement penalty. Animal forms can be taken as a backup or for utility.
It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?
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It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?
Well, Alex Agunas already put together a decent build for a shifter that actually uses shifting. Considering the evaluation of the rest of the class and its features, and that fact that shifters technically don't get their full AC bonus if they were wearing armor when they wild shaped, I'm not seeing a lot of other alternatives for a powerful combat shifter build.
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Well, Alex Agunas already put together a decent build for a shifter that actually uses shifting. Considering the evaluation of the rest of the class and its features, and that fact that shifters technically don't get their full AC bonus if they were wearing armor when they wild shaped, I'm not seeing a lot of other alternatives for a powerful combat shifter build.
It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?
I'm mostly impressed. Augunas thought the Lore Warden nerf was well-balanced, and even HE thinks the Shifter is bad, averagely mediocre at best.
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He explicitly said the Shifter is not bad, he just doesn't like the execution and flavor, if you actually read what he wrote through on the blog.I'm mostly impressed. Augunas thought the Lore Warden nerf was well-balanced, and even HE thinks the Shifter is bad, averagely mediocre at best.Well, Alex Agunas already put together a decent build for a shifter that actually uses shifting. Considering the evaluation of the rest of the class and its features, and that fact that shifters technically don't get their full AC bonus if they were wearing armor when they wild shaped, I'm not seeing a lot of other alternatives for a powerful combat shifter build.
It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?
So while I don’t like the shifter class and don’t think I’ll be building another one on my blog unless some super-cool build or archetype gets released in the future, I also don’t think it’s a bad class.
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He explicitly said the Shifter is not bad, he just doesn't like the execution and flavor, if you actually read what he wrote through on the blog.
I'm mostly impressed. Augunas thought the Lore Warden nerf was well-balanced, and even HE thinks the Shifter is bad, averagely mediocre at best.So while I don’t like the shifter class and don’t think I’ll be building another one on my blog unless some super-cool build or archetype gets released in the future, I also don’t think it’s a bad class.
Flavor is always mutable. Execution is how the class itself functions. Not to mention I don't actually see any real positive comments about the class in the article, and most of the article echoes what other people have said in this very thread (It's way too complicated for a beginner's class to polymorphing, it's not the class a lot of people would have wanted in a shapeshifter, it could use an unchained version, etc.) He's more diplomatic about it though.
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Well, Alex Agunas already put together a decent build for a shifter that actually uses shifting. Considering the evaluation of the rest of the class and its features, and that fact that shifters technically don't get their full AC bonus if they were wearing armor when they wild shaped, I'm not seeing a lot of other alternatives for a powerful combat shifter build.
It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?
Super funny. I thought they'd put together an actual interesting build instead of yet another showing of a dinosaur shifter with basically the same feats and aspects as every other build.
We get it. Given one of a handful of viable builds, a shifter can compete in DPR. Everything else is hot garbage though, and I can't understand why the author of the linked build won't call the class bad just because it can be built to do okay damage.
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We get it. Given one of a handful of viable builds, a shifter can compete in DPR. Everything else is hot garbage though, and I can't understand why the author of the linked build won't call the class bad just because it can be built to do okay damage.
They did. They were just a little more diplomatic about it.
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Well, Alex Agunas already put together a decent build for a shifter that actually uses shifting. Considering the evaluation of the rest of the class and its features, and that fact that shifters technically don't get their full AC bonus if they were wearing armor when they wild shaped, I'm not seeing a lot of other alternatives for a powerful combat shifter build.
It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?
The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacks AND that he took the Mutated Shape feat when he didn't qualify for it, so his Power attack DPR isn't as high as he said it was, and he completely misses out on the gore attack putting his DPR at like 42 instead of 52 using his calculations. And for me, 42 damage on a full attack at lv12 seems kinda low. Using the bench pressing guide 42 is barely in the green tier.
Actually noting now, his damage for his claws seems wrong, his str is 20 and at lv12 shifter is giving +6 damage, so that would be +11 damage per hit, but he's listing +13. The only thing I can think of is that he again got natural attacks wrong and was giving them 1.5 str. So that's another 8 damage on a full attack that he was giving to them meaning his DPR is lower than 40. which pushes it into the orange tier for the benchpressing.
Not to mention the fact that every here is noting, that this DPR of 42 is limited to ONE form, if he changes forms to anything else that DPR starts dropping even more.
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Well, Alex Agunas already put together a decent build for a shifter that actually uses shifting. Considering the evaluation of the rest of the class and its features, and that fact that shifters technically don't get their full AC bonus if they were wearing armor when they wild shaped, I'm not seeing a lot of other alternatives for a powerful combat shifter build.
It seems that the only way to get Shifter to work is not do a lot of shifting?Super funny. I thought they'd put together an actual interesting build instead of yet another showing of a dinosaur shifter with basically the same feats and aspects as every other build.
We get it. Given one of a handful of viable builds, a shifter can compete in DPR. Everything else is hot garbage though, and I can't understand why the author of the linked build won't call the class bad just because it can be built to do okay damage.
Well it doesn't even do as much damage as he was saying. I just posted the explanation, but with adding extra damage to his attacks from nowhere and an extra attack that he doesn't qualify for it was able to keep up with DPR okay maybe. Fixing that and it's putting him under 40 DPR. So this one "viable" build just got less viable. It really needs to game the system to have a chance of keeping up with DPR.
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I think the adequacy condition for vanilla shifters has to be "can you outperform an elementalist who doesn't shift and who picked up a decent weapon with a racial trait." Since at level 12 you're getting +4d6 elemental damage to all your melee attacks and you have +4 to all your physical stats you don't own a belt for from minor forms (plus an omnielementalist aura of sorts.)
Also AC:26 (22 while shifted) seems like a really good way to get dead at level 12 if you're not able to finish off anything you pounce on (or if there's something else close enough nearby to full attack you.)
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Not to mention he's only got a 12 con - which mean low ish HP for a front line fighter...
As a bonus though, the lower the hp the quicker you can reroll another character without the shifter class... :P
The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacks
Huh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
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My question after finally looking over is how does the shifter compare in the long run to the warpriest archetype that gets claws and 1/2 as many wildshapes but gets the improved forms as best i can tell?
The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
Well it is only primary that is getting 1.5. And to be fair when I looked at the non-power attack damage it looked like he was adding 1.5 str to those. So if he thought for some reason that those had 1.5 str then he did use the correct power attack. So the actual problem might have just been too much str being used.
Alex's build is packed full of mistakes (in addition to the ones listed, the base attack roll on any of his attacks doesn't add up), but more importantly it uses more or less no gold on improving his attacks. Its hardly giving the shifter a fair shake.
After correcting his calculation errors (and assuming a fixed shifter's edge granting +6 damage at 12th level instead of +12), I'm getting 36.1 DPR vs. AC27.
Just by adding an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 (roughly 1/3rd of your gold at 12th level), and assuming you are pouncing (because of course you are), and you're at 66.9 DPR. Add deliquescent gloves and you're at 77.8 DPR. That's still a bit short of what a pouncing barbarian with a 2 handed weapon is doing at this level (which, if I use mostly CRB options for the barb, runs around 88 DPR), but its hardly as mediocre as Alex or some of the people in this thread are making it out to be.
The pouncing dino build is plenty viable. Shifter damage is OK to good with the right build.
But as many people have pointed out already in-thread, the class as a whole has complexity issues, narrow build options, and is thematically unsatisfying (for me at least).
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My question after finally looking over is how does the shifter compare in the long run to the warpriest archetype that gets claws and 1/2 as many wildshapes but gets the improved forms as best i can tell?
Probably something similar to how a warrior compares to a fighter. Like you can see it has the same idea, one just has higher numbers.
My question after finally looking over is how does the shifter compare in the long run to the warpriest archetype that gets claws and 1/2 as many wildshapes but gets the improved forms as best i can tell?Probably something similar to how a warrior compares to a fighter. Like you can see it has the same idea, one just has higher numbers.
Yeah but who is who?
Yeah but who is who?My question after finally looking over is how does the shifter compare in the long run to the warpriest archetype that gets claws and 1/2 as many wildshapes but gets the improved forms as best i can tell?Probably something similar to how a warrior compares to a fighter. Like you can see it has the same idea, one just has higher numbers.
All the shifting archetypes are better at shifting than the shifter.
Any class > shifter.
So yeah Warpriest is just better too.
Yeah but who is who?My question after finally looking over is how does the shifter compare in the long run to the warpriest archetype that gets claws and 1/2 as many wildshapes but gets the improved forms as best i can tell?Probably something similar to how a warrior compares to a fighter. Like you can see it has the same idea, one just has higher numbers.
Oh, the warpriest is the fighter in that. You take a race with bite then worship Apsu or Dahak: you then have a bite and 2 claws that scale up in damage better than the shifters claws and all work in wildshape. You can enchant them with swift action spells and sacred weapon enhancements. Then you can add Cult Leader to that and add sneak attack to those natural attacks. So better damage, sneak attacking, self buffing pouncing attacker vs the shifter. Then add Mutated Shape for another bite that ALSO gets the better scaling damage... :P
Well it is only primary that is getting 1.5. And to be fair when I looked at the non-power attack damage it looked like he was adding 1.5 str to those. So if he thought for some reason that those had 1.5 str then he did use the correct power attack. So the actual problem might have just been too much str being used.The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
That still would be incorrect though I think. At level 12 the power attack bonus is -4/+8, and the build's Strength score is 18/20 for a +4/+5 bonus, plus Shifter's Edge for an extra +6. The build has no ability that makes the normal claws use 1.5x Strength for damage, so their damage should be 1d8+10/18, not +12/+24.
Similarly for the Deinonychus form damage, assuming the Bite attack is getting the 1.5x damage (which it doesn't in the actual creature), the Gore is getting the Shifter Claws bonus (which it might not) and that the foreclaws are secondary (which isn't explicitly stated), the damage should be Bite/Talon/Talon/Foreclaw/Foreclaw/Gore for 1d8+13/1d8+11/1d8+11/1d4+2/1d4+2/1d8+11, or +25/+19/+19/+19/+6/+6/+19 with Power Attack.
Oh you're right, I forgot that shifter's edge only applies to your claws or the natural attacks that your claws are replacing. So the bite doesn't get the shifter's edge bonus damage. and neither does the non-qualifying gore attack.
No matter what the bite doesn't get 1.5 str.
So for his stats it's really actually lower that what you just listed.
Bite 1d6+5/Talon 1d8+11/Talon 1d8+11/Foreclaw 1d4+2/Foreclaw 1d4+2 for
max damage possible is 11+19+19+6+6 =61 damage. Power attack adds 3 8s and 2 4s to this.
So yeah, lots of mistakes were made in his build that drastically increased the damage the class looked to be doing.
Oh you're right, I forgot that shifter's edge only applies to your claws or the natural attacks that your claws are replacing.
Re-reading Shifter's Edge and the Shifter Claws abilities, it's actually really unclear what counts as "augmented". Is it all natural attacks, since they get the benefit from the DR bypassing ability? Is it just whatever attacks have had their damage boosted by Shifter Claws?
Oh you're right, I forgot that shifter's edge only applies to your claws or the natural attacks that your claws are replacing.Re-reading Shifter's Edge and the Shifter Claws abilities, it's actually really unclear what counts as "augmented". Is it all natural attacks, since they get the benefit from the DR bypassing ability? Is it just whatever attacks have had their damage boosted by Shifter Claws?
I would assume just the attacks that are using the claw's stats. I believe it seems to be tied to just 2 attacks.