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I feel like someone candidly addressing these complaints and answering our confusion would be pretty great right now.
I showed my brother the class today, a fiercely loyal Paizo fan. He read the class looked a bit confused, said “is that it” read it again and then said he thought it was the worst class in the game.
I was expecting him to contrive a defence but no.
I don't think it would really be helpful at this point, because the damage is already done, and trying to defend it or fix it isn't going to help what's already happened. The class is just too broken (and not in the overpowered sense) for it to be defended. You even said it yourself, that even the most zealous of Paizo fans (at least one of them anyway) can't defend the class design being horrid, and from my perspective, the #1 reason why the class failed is because it didn't get a proper playtest due to meanie heads being overly vocal and not having any tact to their statements.
In my opinion, the Shifter is in the Caster/Martial Disparity boat, in that it has to be completely rewritten for it to properly function in this game, and we all know Paizo's opinion on the Caster/Martial Disparity issue: It doesn't exist. And because the book is already published, even if they would acknowledge an issue (even if only because of lack of sales on said book), they can't just go back and change it, especially this early, when they have to run out of all their printings first. Which requires people buying the book. Which requires people wanting to buy badly written options (No, Shifter isn't the only thing in there that's just outright wrong or incomplete), which is in very low supply these days.
@ ShroudedInLight: I disagree; the Shifter has some choices, between their aspects that they take. It's just that the choices aren't great, and basically require shoehorning to make on par with other characters who don't have to be shoehorned to be effective (though Archery builds share this problem with feats, it's compensated for its overwhelming power, and can also still be executed in other ways).
So, while options are what can differentiate between two different builds accomplishing the same goal (such as Archery), that doesn't stop people making Dervish Dance Magus #1927 or Dervish Dance Magus #7563, because that combination is both popular and powerful (and somewhat iconic). (Seriously, 80% of Magi are Shocking Graspers with Dervish Dance or some other form of Dex to Damage.)
Even with the above concept in place (all shifters being built the same), the only schtick the Shifter has (natural combat) is very weak compared to other classes that have only one schtick, so you aren't going to see Natural Attack Shifter #8727 and Natural Attack Shifter #1039 because the schtick they use just sucks, and their class doesn't give any support for it. Compared to other strong Natural Attack builds (the only ones I can come up with is Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple and Druidzilla), the Shifter brings nothing new (that is good, anyway,) to the table.
I sort of wonder if somewhere along the line someone read "entry level" as "makes very few choices" since aside from "what spells to prepare" and feats (no bonuses) a cleric pretty much 3 choices total- deity, and two domains and that's it. Take away the spellcasting, and the Shifter is like this: the only choices you make are your feats (no bonuses!) and four aspects (really three, since "choices made at 15th level" may never happen.)
On some level "you don't have to make a lot of choices" is appropriate for entry-level classes, since choice paralysis is real for a lot of people, but that only works if the rest of the chassis is sufficiently strong to work without a lot of tuning and customization.
Aye, but the Cleric does have spellcasting. And spellcasting is SUPER modular because spell lists are much easier to add to than class abilities are to class lists.
You need to republish a class or add in archetypes to fix a class, while a spell list can be added to every single book.
If you were held at gun point and told to play a Shifter (no archetype, no multiclassing) or a Warrior for a year long campaign, which class would you pick?
Personally, I would grab Warrior.
Focused Study Human 18str 12dex 14con 14int 8wis 10cha ||Traits: Dangerously Curious, Seeker|| Climb, Handle Animal, Perception, UMD ||
1. Nature Soul, Skill Focus Perception || Favored class bonus +HP
2.
3. Animal Ally
4. +1 Str
5. Boon Companion
6.
7. Power Attack
8. Skill Focus UMD, +1 Str
9. Iron Will
10.
11. Familiar Bond
12. +1 Str
13. Improved Familiar Bond (Mauler Familiar)
14.
15. Fast Learner (Intimidate)
16. Skill Focus (Intimidate), +1 Str
17. Improvisation
18.
19. Improved Improvisation
20. +1 Str
I don't think Shifter class features make up for losing proficiencies and the ability to wear metal armor.
If you were held at gun point and told to play a Shifter (no archetype, no multiclassing) or a Warrior for a year long campaign, which class would you pick?
I'd take the Shifter. Play an elementalist half-elf (air-then-earth) who uses a branch-spear with weapon finesse and takes the combat patrol feats to make a bunch of AoOs with significant damage added from Elemental Strike. I'd probably never turn into an elemental in combat, since it would make me much less effective.
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If you were held at gun point and told to play a Shifter (no archetype, no multiclassing) or a Warrior for a year long campaign, which class would you pick?I'd take the Shifter. Play an elementalist half-elf (air-then-earth) who uses a branch-spear with weapon finesse and takes the combat patrol feats to make a bunch of AoOs with significant damage added from Elemental Strike. I'd probably never turn into an elemental in combat, since it would make me much less effective.
No archetype, was the stipulation.
No archetype, was the stipulation.
Oops, missed that (guess I'm dead in this "gun to your head" scenario), the warrior seems compelling since at least it's not going to cause any headaches. But for the shifter I can at least pick a race that gives me proficiency in a decent weapon (say a half-orc) and just play whatever warrior build someone else comes up with (buy a voidglass breastplate eventually or something.) You can always use minor aspects as minute/long stat buffs and forget about your claws and shapeshifting.
Shifter, obviously. Combat form, flight form, and then just grab something fun from third form onward. At that point, there's enough shifts in the day to start using a couple casually. Get beast form speech off of a ring.
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I don’t think this warrior vs Shifter analysis is very useful it just reads as hyperbole like when people where complaining about the Kineticist.
The problems with the Shifter are serious and many, no need to muddy the waters.
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Shifter, obviously. Combat form, flight form, and then just grab something fun from third form onward. At that point, there's enough shifts in the day to start using a couple casually. Get beast form speech off of a ring.
Idk, looks like you are losing your ring slot, your amulet slot, and the ability to wear metal armor.
Warrior is saving on slots, feats, and has access to a decent ranged option. Meanwhile Shifters HAVE to have a flying form because they have no ranged options. It's not like a warrior can't fly with UMD. The problem with shifter flight forms is that most of them are bad for combat. In-class flight is normally pretty powerful, but the shifter found a way to make even that kind of suck.
It does not seem obvious to me. Proficiencies and the lack of druidic limitations do a lot to keep up with the effective +1 to-hit shifters are getting from shifting.
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It still amazes me that a martial class, especially one billed as a "self-buffing" martial class at that, only effectively gets a +1 to hit from all of their class abilities when compared to a Warrior with a belt.
This is on a whole other level of failed design.
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Honestly the more I think about it, the more I start to agree that even the base NPC Warrior can be a preferable combatant to a Shifter.
Warriors don't have to deal with annoying restrictions, don't have to take feats just to reach basic competence (like the ability to communicat with one's party) and are actually less shafted by items than the Base Shifter.
Shifter NEEDS an Amulet of Mighty Fists, but AOMFs are generally twice the cost of an equivalent weapon with half of the possible bonus (+5 vs +10). On top of that, wearing one means that the Shifter cannot benefit from an Amulet of Natural Armor. Shifters are also restricted from being able to use a shield while Wild Shaped, and must also deal with the neccessity of the incredibly expensive +3 Wild enchantment. Defensive Instinct certainly helps patch things up somewhat, but I can see a Warrior pulling ahead on AC if indeed that was their focus.
Offensively, the Shifter's main alternative combat steroid besides Beast Shape II are the minutes/level aspects, some of which can increase stats. But it's generally better to just have a Belt that gives you stats all the time, than be forced to predict encounters or deal with ambushes without them up. Mind you, these enhancement bonuses to stats are still generally your best option for minor aspects, (most of them give forgettable bonuses) but taking them really cuts into your limited versatility. Afterall, there isn't functionally much that you are getting out of a bear that you aren't already getting out of a bull or a tiger.
Then there's the Wolverine, who at the very least can be used to grab Rage. Unfortunately, the Shifter's rage only lasts rounds/level and can't even be activate on demand, only on turns where you've taken damage. This means that you are actively decreasing your AC against creatures you know can hit your normally.
So all in all, if you told me that you could build a Warrior on par with a Shifter when given PC wealth, I'd totally believe you. And considering the fewer restrictions, it might not actually be such a bad idea.
I'd like to note that there's an immense amount of versatility one can gain from weapon and armor enhancements (like the ability to fly can be gained by armor, for example). The fact that the Shifter has to burn both feats (profiency) and money (enhancements) just to reach a state of playability may honestly not be worth the incredibly subpar bonuses you gain from such a limited Wild Shape. A well built Warrior may well offer more to a party than a Shifter.
And again, this is the height of flawed design.
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...and a Warrior is a suboptimal NPC class version of Fighter, often considered the 'bottom of the heap' in terms of PC classes...
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I'd honestly would play a Commoner with a trait that granted UMD and had twice the wealth by level of a PC of equal level then a Shifter. You can do much more interesting things trying to figure out how make yourself viable then the shifter. If anything you'd be FUN! The shifter is not fun! You can't do anything cool with it. Any minor cool you can possibly do you don't as it might screw you over for a future combat. And worst, you get to watch other classes do it without thinking about. They're throwaway things they do.
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...and a Warrior is a suboptimal NPC class version of Fighter, often considered the 'bottom of the heap' in terms of PC classes...
I've never thought I'd say this, but Shifter really makes me appreciate how fully featured the Fighter class is.
I really like how you get usable features at every level of fighter.
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I don’t think this warrior vs Shifter analysis is very useful
You're right, it's not useful.
It's just sad and true that a standard Warrior/Fighter class is a better martial, even when we stick with Core Only, and the Shifter can't utilize their transformative abilities in ways that they should be able to do to shine in other areas that a Core Fighter couldn't, for fear of losing combat effectiveness. You tack on the other resources for a Fighter, and they are outright better in every aspect you could imagine when built optimally.
Honestly, Shifter is on par with Core Rogue in terms of overall effectiveness, and most everybody on these forums agrees that the Core Rogue is just garbage.
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If the Shifter were complemented by the abilities of a skinshaper druid archetype ...
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I literally built a Shifter earlier in this thread that does about as well as a decently optimized Fighter of the same level (better saves, on par DPR including the existence pounce, within a point on AC, equivalent number of skills).
These hyperbolic comparisons stating how awful Shifter is are patently ridiculous and distract rather profoundly from the actual points to be made (mostly, that Shifter lacks utility, and is frankly both boring and un-fun for many people).
I don't like Shifter, folks. I Am Not A Fan (tm). My House Rules on Shifter are the most extensive of any Class I've ever written such rules for (in fairness, this is partially due to having Unchanined Monk and Rogue to work with in regards to those Classes, but still). That's how much I dislike it.
But dislike doesn't make something mechanically bad, and Shifter is a fine middle-of-the-road martial class in combat (largely due to the amazing power of pounce, I'll admit), and at least as good in terms of utility abilities as most Fighters or Barbarians. Saying it isn't as good as Warrior is absurd.
I don’t think this warrior vs Shifter analysis is very usefulYou're right, it's not useful.
It's just sad and true that a standard Warrior/Fighter class is a better martial, even when we stick with Core Only, and the Shifter can't utilize their transformative abilities in ways that they should be able to do to shine in other areas that a Core Fighter couldn't, for fear of losing combat effectiveness. You tack on the other resources for a Fighter, and they are outright better in every aspect you could imagine when built optimally.
Honestly, Shifter is on par with Core Rogue in terms of overall effectiveness, and most everybody on these forums agrees that the Core Rogue is just garbage.
Ehhhh, I would put CRB rogue in Tier 5 and warrior/shifter in Tier 6.
At least the core rogue brings lots of skills to the out of combat realm that are useful.
A shatter defenses strength rogue would probably be more useful in combat too. The shifter needs power attack to do decent damage, a CRB rogue doesn't. Shifter features give at most 1-3 extra to-hit. So a wolverine raging powerattacking Shifter is only as accurate as a flanking crb Rogue.
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I literally built a Shifter earlier in this thread that does about as well as a decently optimized Fighter of the same level (better saves, on par DPR including the existence pounce, within a point on AC, equivalent number of skills).
These hyperbolic comparisons stating how awful Shifter is are patently ridiculous and distract rather profoundly from the actual points to be made (mostly, that Shifter lacks utility, and is frankly both boring and un-fun for many people).
I don't like Shifter, folks. I Am Not A Fan (tm). My House Rules on Shifter are the most extensive of any Class I've ever written such rules for (in fairness, this is partially due to having Unchanined Monk and Rogue to work with in regards to those Classes, but still). That's how much I dislike it.
But dislike doesn't make something mechanically bad, and Shifter is a fine middle-of-the-road martial class in combat (largely due to the amazing power of pounce, I'll admit), and at least as good in terms of utility abilities as most Fighters or Barbarians. Saying it isn't as good as Warrior is absurd.
You built early and mid levels.
You also didn't compare flight form to back up range weapon.
Or take into account that flight form is very probably locking you out of your pounce form for the next combat.
Personally, if a class can't keep up by level 20 then it's bad. I don't want to useless in the big boss fight of a long campaign.
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Fun note: We had to change the discussion to "is this class better than a warrior?" to get people to actually defend the class.
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You built early and mid levels.
Actually I only did 10th level, but I could do some higher level ones in theory, I suppose.
You also didn't compare flight form to back up range weapon.
No, this is true. Generally, by 10th level this isn't gonna matter though, never mind higher levels. By that point your 'backup weapon' should be a Potion of Flight (or a fellow party member to cast the spell). Something both the characters I did can easily afford.
Or take into account that flight form is very probably locking you out of your pounce form for the next combat.
I didn't need to account for this, since it was never my intention to suggest that Shifters could regularly fly around.
Personally, if a class can't keep up by level 20 then it's bad. I don't want to useless in the big boss fight of a long campaign.
Given the lack of campaigns that go to level 20 I think you might be expecting a bit much there. But if you want a level 16 comparison or something I guess I could whip something up. It's possible that by that point Fighter will pull ahead, but I highly doubt it'll be by as much as you think.
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Fun note: We had to change the discussion to "is this class better than a warrior?" to get people to actually defend the class.
This has to do with Shifter being kinda bad, but not anywhere near that bad. Though, in fairness I at least defended it when it was called 'worse than a corebook Fighter' quite a bit earlier.
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Fun note: We had to change the discussion to "is this class better than a warrior?" to get people to actually defend the class.This has to do with Shifter being kinda bad, but not anywhere near that bad. Though, in fairness I at least defended it when it was called 'worse than a corebook Fighter' quite a bit earlier.
I disagree.
Now with multiclassing I would start warrior and then go shifter. Metal armor only turns off those features for 24 hours and more skill points and saves are great to have.
But without multiclassing or archetypes, the proficiencies warrior gets outclass shifter features in my opinion. Wildshape takes lots of gold, magic item slots, and feats to grant basic functionality and it may still come up short. A warrior has lots of options to spend those resources on other things. And warriors start at level 1 with a decent ranged combat option.
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Fun note: We had to change the discussion to "is this class better than a warrior?" to get people to actually defend the class.
I'm kind of tired of talking about it. My friend is overjoyed to be playing a Leshy Shifter- at least as happy to play it as I have been to play any character. That's enough for me. The warrior thing got under my skin enough for me to comment despite myself, but I don't know if that's really something to tout. People defended the class earlier, so it's not really fair to say that "Is this class better than a warrior?" is necessary to get people to defend the class.
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I literally built a Shifter earlier in this thread that does about as well as a decently optimized Fighter of the same level (better saves, on par DPR including the existence pounce, within a point on AC, equivalent number of skills).
These hyperbolic comparisons stating how awful Shifter is are patently ridiculous and distract rather profoundly from the actual points to be made (mostly, that Shifter lacks utility, and is frankly both boring and un-fun for many people).
I don't like Shifter, folks. I Am Not A Fan (tm). My House Rules on Shifter are the most extensive of any Class I've ever written such rules for (in fairness, this is partially due to having Unchanined Monk and Rogue to work with in regards to those Classes, but still). That's how much I dislike it.
But dislike doesn't make something mechanically bad, and Shifter is a fine middle-of-the-road martial class in combat (largely due to the amazing power of pounce, I'll admit), and at least as good in terms of utility abilities as most Fighters or Barbarians. Saying it isn't as good as Warrior is absurd.
I would also hesitate to make the comparison against the Warrior, particularly since the Shifter is essentially a Warrior with better reflex, a few extra combat options of varying usefulness, two more skill points, and worse proficiencies. It *should* be hard for a Warrior to outshine even a Shifter that ignores Wild Shape.
However, it's important to note that Wild Shape isn't pure gravy. You have to factor in that it takes feats to optimize, removes options for gear, largely locks you out of meaningful RP until higher levels, and is limited in viable form options.
Combining that with the fact that the best minor aspects don't stack with belt bonuses, you start to realize many of the things shifters do are trade offs, not straight bonuses.
That's where this Warrior comparison is coming from: If someone wants to play a character that's effective in a variety of situations and not just for brief stretches of time, Warrior starts to look better and better. Then we have to wonder if what the Shifter does gain outside of Wild Shape and Minor Aspects is worth the feats to get the Warrior's weapon proficiencies. This is at the end of a long train of thought that has lost track of the goal of playing a character that can shift. It's a bit like comparing a Wizard who doesn't cast to a commoner.
I will stand by my estimation that, compared to a fighter, Shifter is hot garbage because of its reliance on Pounce, its focus on combat to the exclusion of all else to almost reach fighter effectiveness, its small number of viable forms, its lack of options outside of wild shape, and its minutes per day bonuses.
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I'd say that the Shifter is better than a Warrior, if only because it gets access to Rage and 2 Rage Powers as a Wolverine. There are some really powerful rage powers out there, so you can really pull a build together with it.
Well, you can for at least one round per level, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Outside of the Wolverine's Rage though, then the differences between a Shifter and a Warrior start to become a bit less clear. At that point, I guess the Shifter's access to Pounce allows it to win out (at least against grounded opponents), but if the Warrior is a dedicated Archer then...huh.
Archery being far and away the most superior martial combat style, I guess a dedicated Archer Warrior may well be stronger than most Shifter builds. And it's not like the Shifter can replicate this either, since he lacks the proficiency and none of his class features help him use bows or non-natural weapons (on the contrary, such weapons would meld into his body when shifting).
Now I kind of want to see some stats on this. A Level 20 Archer Warrior NPC w/ PC WBL vs a Level 20 Shifter. Though I guess if the Warrior wins, it's more of a critique on Archery being so superior to melee natural attacks than anything else.
Then there's the Wolverine, who at the very least can be used to grab Rage. Unfortunately, the Shifter's rage only lasts rounds/level and can't even be activate on demand, only on turns where you've taken damage. This means that you are actively decreasing your AC against creatures you know can hit your normally.
For a laugh I tried to build a Linnorm Style Shifter using this same concept. It didn't look terrible, up until the point where I re-read the feat and it only applies to unarmed strikes, making it useless to a normal Shifter.
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I literally built a Shifter earlier in this thread that does about as well as a decently optimized Fighter of the same level (better saves, on par DPR including the existence pounce, within a point on AC, equivalent number of skills).
There are more problems than what you've said.
The Shifter can only compare with a Fighter when in a Pouncing form. As far as I know, that's only Tiger, which is basically a shoehorning of the Shifter's options just to be effective. Even Wolverine won't work simply because a lack of Pounce hurts its ability to accomplish full attacks, and having Rage (Fighter with VMC Barbarian is just as strong) and two Rage Powers (of which they can't get Extra Rage Power for Pouncing Beast Totem, so they're better off with Superstition and Reckless Abandon) means you can't compare unless you're in a no-full-attack scenario.
And this is just assuming ground against ground. What about against flying enemies, starting to appear around 6th level, and being commonplace around 8th level and onward? A Shifter would have to use a flying form to be able to properly contribute in combat (none of which would have Pounce). If he's already shifted prior to this sort of combat, that costs a use (which will be very risky for them to do in the earlier levels), and a melee Fighter with a Bow will probably be just as effective as the Shifter's new flying form, without sacrificing uses per day of certain abilities.
Now I kind of want to see some stats on this. A Level 20 Archer Warrior NPC w/ PC WBL vs a Level 20 Shifter. Though I guess if the Warrior wins, it's more of a critique on Archery being so superior to melee natural attacks than anything else.
Natural attacks were mainly designed for monsters anyway, and so are much more limited than normal iterative attacks. And that is not even including in hierarchy ladder archery, then two-handed weapons, basic one handed swinging and dual wielding.
Shifter is very much faithful to some old design paradigms of the game, there has been no mistake. It is just more of an ugly truth about core rules than Shifter.
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I wouldn't say the Shifter is worse than a warrior... Well, at least at levels 4+. By then, Wild Shape isn't that much of RP-trap anymore. It also gets extra skill points and better saves... That's always nice.
In any case, I built a moderately optimized Archer Warrior just for the LULz.
However, the fact that such a comparison can even be made without that much hyperbole tells us a lot about the Shifter...
Archer
Human Warrior 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +7
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +2 composite longbow +17/+12 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . +1 composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+3/×3)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 27
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), reactionary
Skills Climb +9, Handle Animal +2, Intimidate +11, Perception +11, Ride +9, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +15, Swim +9
Languages Common, Sylvan
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (4), potion of fly; Other Gear +2 mithral breastplate, +2 composite longbow (+2 Str), +1 composite longbow (+2 Str), amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +4, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, traveler's any-tool[UE], 400 gp
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Special Abilities
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Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Let's be frank: The Shifter is the most glaring flaw of UW, but it's far from being the only one. It feels like the book didn't even get a revision before being sent to print. A bunch of feats that do nothing, reprints and the customary unnecessary nerfs makes the UW look like it's the result of rushed and/or lazy work. And this time they don't have the excuse of having to design 10 new classes in a short time.
I think Dinonychus get Pounce to?
Don’t know if they get Rend like tigers do though...
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I think Dinonychus get Pounce to?
Don’t know if they get Rend like tigers do though...
The Deinonychus does get pounce. People are probably just ignoring it because the minor aspect isn't as strong (Initiative vs. Dexterity) at low levels. You also get spring attack and a dodge bonus instead of the grap and rake combo, but you get your 4th and 5th natural attack earlier.
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I think Deinonychus get Pounce to?
Don’t know if they get Rend like tigers do though...
Alright, so there's two forms that can Pounce, whereas a Druid can select any form with Pounce, several of which are better than whatever a Shifter can turn into, and . It's still otherwise less varied than the ways an Archer can be built, which is pretty sad.
@ PossibleCabbage: Deinonychus Form > Tiger Form, hands down. The Initiative bonus stacking to +6 (and stacks with other Initiative Bonuses), and the other goodies, are a lot better than the Tiger's ability to rake, and also doesn't require waiting until 15th level to have a proper +6 Dexterity that doesn't stack (in addition to the rake).
It was more than likely ignored because Tiger is assumed to be better for Druids (due to later accessibility and having overall better bonuses), even though in the Shifter's case, that's not true at all.
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I was largely noting that the Tiger's dex bonus might be more appealing than initiative in those early levels before you can afford to buy a belt. Though the dex>str shifter might be the stronger build, so that won't be for very long.
One thing that occurs to me is that since the Shifter's claw damage does not scale very fast (slower than a monk's UAS), and that "you have two distinct combat styles" isn't really workable without bonus feats (and isn't great with them), the vanilla shifter seems to be sort of "locked in" to a natural attack build, which is fine. But NA builds require you to make a whole lot of natural attacks since you don't get iterative attacks. So it seems like the shifter basically *needs* to pick either Tiger or Deinonychus to get pounce at least as their second aspect. Which is not great- an option that pretty much everybody needs to pick should probably not be an option.
It's not like the shifter can stack defense like the fighter so "walk up to them and hit them, then eat a full attack before you drop them" won't work for them, and it's not like the shifter can easily pick up reach options that work both in and out of wild shape.
Has anybody seen a viable unarchetyped shifter build without either aspect that grants pounce?
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Someone was trying to make a Mouse Shifter a while back. I believe they gave up in despair.
The problem with the initiative bonus is that it's minutes/level, so you have to be using it when expecting a combat, and cannot use it if your are surprised/ambushed (i.e. the times you need initiative the most).
Worse still, minutes/level duration uniquely means that whether or not you still have the buff active from one fight to the next depends entirely on whether or not your GM likes you.
At the shifter more than half of the forms are rendered useless. Such as a mouse, an owl, a snake, a lizard.
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So as a thought experiment- Suppose absolutely everything about the Shifter was unlimited in terms of duration and number of uses- you can have your minor aspects up as long as you want, you can wild shape as often as you want, and stay in any form you want to be in for as long as you care to. What things you can shift into is still limited by wild shape and how many minor aspects you can use at once is still limited by chimeric aspect (and the greater version thereof.)
Under these restrictions, would the shifter be even remotely unreasonable relative to other full BAB classes? How many of them would it even be potentially stronger than?
The biggest thing I can think of is mostly that the Oozemorph is much stronger because you don't have to be a largely-helpless ooze at all if you don't want to, and that you'd have a lot of dead levels.
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There are more problems than what you've said.
The Shifter can only compare with a Fighter when in a Pouncing form. As far as I know, that's only Tiger, which is basically a shoehorning of the Shifter's options just to be effective. Even Wolverine won't work simply because a lack of Pounce hurts its ability to accomplish full attacks, and having Rage (Fighter with VMC Barbarian is just as strong) and two Rage Powers (of which they can't get Extra Rage Power for Pouncing Beast Totem, so they're better off with Superstition and Reckless Abandon) means you can't compare unless you're in a no-full-attack scenario.
There's also Deinonychus, but yeah, Shifter's absolutely shoehorned into certain forms in order to be a viable character (which is part of why it's boring and un-fun), but that doesn't make it not work mechanically, it just makes it lack options in character building, which is an entirely separate problem.
And this is just assuming ground against ground. What about against flying enemies, starting to appear around 6th level, and being commonplace around 8th level and onward? A Shifter would have to use a flying form to be able to properly contribute in combat (none of which would have Pounce). If he's already shifted prior to this sort of combat, that costs a use (which will be very risky for them to do in the earlier levels), and a melee Fighter with a Bow will probably be just as effective as the Shifter's new flying form, without sacrificing uses per day of certain abilities.
By 8th level, both should have access to items (like a Potion, for example) that grant flight (or a friendly caster to do the same). If they don't, well, that's more on them than the Class.
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So Shifter has L.O.C.O.* written all over it, in other words?
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Am I reading it right that picking Owl aspect gives you Flyby Attack as a bonus feat but not a fly speed?
One of the many issues that have been raised as areas of concern, yes.
I wouldn't say the Shifter is worse than a warrior... Well, at least at levels 4+. By then, Wild Shape isn't that much of RP-trap anymore. It also gets extra skill points and better saves... That's always nice.
In any case, I built a moderately optimized Archer Warrior just for the LULz.
However, the fact that such a comparison can even be made without that much hyperbole tells us a lot about the Shifter...
** spoiler omitted **...
First of all, thanks for the quick build! With this, we should be able to make some comparisons with the build that Deadmanwalking posted earlier.
That said, I noticed that you took a +4 Cloak of Resistance but didn't actually add them to your saves for some reason. With it, you would have saves of 13/12/11 compared to the Shifter build that had 12/14/12. Not too bad, considering the fact that the Shifter had a second good save.
Also, I noticed that you took Rapid Shot and Many Shot, but didn't add them on your "Offenses" column. Actually, now that I look at it further, it doesn't seem as though you added in the bonuses of your Belt of Physical Perfection +2, either. Actually, I don't think any of your items are factored into much of anything.
This would put your saves at 14/13/11 (effectively, the same as the Shifter's) and your attacks at +16/+16/+11. Assuming all attacks hit, you would deal 4d8+12 damage (avg. 30) vs the Shifter's Power Attack routine of +16/+16/+16 dealing 4d4+2d6+48 (avg 65). Thanks to the bonus damage provided by Power Attack (as well as the higher STR stat), the Shifter's DPR is certainly higher than what a mid-level Archer Warrior can output.
That said, I've been going over Deadmanwalking's build and also noticed a couple of problems. First, that he seems to be using a 21 point buy, rather than a 20 point one. This is easily solved by reducing his INT from 10 to 9, but this would give him 3 skill ranks per level, which is only the same as the above Warrior NPC build (effectively erasing his advantage in that area, and making it a loss when ACP is taken into account).
The second, is that he's slightly above Wealth By Level for a Level 10 character.
16,700 gp for +1 Wild Dragonhide Breastplate
16,000 gp for +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
16,000 gp for +4 STR belt
4,000 gp for +2 WIS belt
9,000 gp for +3 Cloak of Resistance
2,000 gp for Ring of Protection +1
5,000 gp for Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
Total: 68,700 gp in listed items.
Average WBL for a Level 10 character: 62,000 gp
Since the Shifter is fairly ahead of the Warrior in terms of AC (29 vs 25), the Shifter could probably stand to lose the Ring of Protection and the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone boosting their AC. This puts them at 27 AC while in Tiger form and utilizing the Tiger's DEX-boosting minor aspect. Utilizing a different minor aspect or not being in Wild Shape erases this AC advantage.
So all in all, it's kind of a wash, IMHO. The Shifter build presented by Deadmanwalking can certainly deal more damage than the Archer Warrior presented here, and utilizing the Tiger aspect can give the Shifter a slight AC advantage while doing so. But unfortunately that's about as good as it gets for the Shifter.
As levels increase, the Warrior will be able to further increase their Belt of Physical Perfection, and the difference between the two will start to wane. Plus, the Warrior will start to receive more attacks due to their BAB, while the Shifter will only ever be restricted to the ones shown. The Warrior can also make more usage of activated items, like Boots of Haste and whatnot that a Polymorph'd Shifter cannot. This also expands to weapon and armor special abilities, many of which cannot be used while under a polymorph effect.
Then there's the fact that stuff like an Amulet of Mighty Fists will scale in cost far faster than a longbow would, or the fact that adding Wild to a Breastplate makes it a +4 armor and therefore also more expensive to increase. Life is hard for a Shifter in the mid-late game it seems.
Am I reading it right that picking Owl aspect gives you Flyby Attack as a bonus feat but not a fly speed?
I see no way to read it any other way.
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Am I reading it right that picking Owl aspect gives you Flyby Attack as a bonus feat but not a fly speed?I see no way to read it any other way.
Oh wow. Just. Wow.
EDIT: A Medium sized Owl doesn't even exist, so it's literally impossible to know what speed you get. 10/10 right there. This is what happens when you release a class without playtesting it first. Though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this class wasn't even edited prior to release.
Could the Shifter just be the npc class version of the druid?
Could the Shifter just be the npc class version of the druid?
No, that'd have 4th level casting...
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The more I look back on that build the more I think I screwed things up a bit. Ditching the Breastplate for a Pearl of Power or several Wands of Mage Armor saves a lot of money and only nets you -1 AC.
There are a few other things I'd do differently too (not giving them an Animal Mask when I gave the Fighter Gloves of Dueling and using Tiger instead of Deinonychus, most notably).
Animal Mask is an activated item, so it likely won't work when Polymorphed unless otherwise stated.
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Animal Mask is an activated item, so it likely won't work when Polymorphed unless otherwise stated.
That's...not actually how that works by my reading. You'd need to put it on after you'd shifted shape, but that's not exactly hard. I admit it's a matter for interpretation, though.
Either way, a Helm of the Mammoth Lord definitely works, and is only somewhat more pricey.