Just a heads up, i'm pretty sure the +2 bonus when charging, as well as all other effects of making a charge, only apply to the first attack made on a charge.
IIRC This was done to directly stop the "RAGE-LANCE-POUNCE" AM BARBARIAN builds that pounced with dual-wielded lances on a Synthesist Summoner cohort mount.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
okay, so it is able to keep up with other full babs. that is good
It's able to keep up with the CRB fighter. That's not saying much. Optimized full martials should be able to put out something like 150 DPR at Level 12.
I'm pretty sure the weretouched shifter can do that as well. For other builds I'm not so sure.
The weretouched shifter really breaks the classes damage math as it can combine Rhino Hide with pounce. Boot trick (Sharp veer) and Dragon Style mean that you should be able to pounce on most rounds of the day (Humans cann pull all this of at 5th).
The major issue with the shifter's DPR is that your to hit will always be lagging behind other martials. Due to the number of attacks precision isn't quite as importants but other martials can easily aquire a dump truck of natural attacks as well.
This is why pouncing is so important as that +2 to hit is vital for a shifter. This also means that power attack is a comparably bad feat for shifters.
Also I'm fairly positive that with the erataded shifter's edge you are not gonna want to Focus on DEX (at least not on a build that goes from Level 1 to 12). For pure DPR reasons investing heavily in WIS for Mutated Shape is probably superior.
Just a heads up, i'm pretty sure the +2 bonus when charging, as well as all other effects of making a charge, only apply to the first attack made on a charge.
IIRC This was done to directly stop the "RAGE-LANCE-POUNCE" AM BARBARIAN builds that pounced with dual-wielded lances on a Synthesist Summoner cohort mount.
It still gets the +2 to all attacks, it just doesn't get the double damage multiplier outside the first hit. FAQ
It still gets the +2 to all attacks, it just doesn't get the double damage multiplier outside the first hit. FAQ
Oh thank god. I thought I was going crazy there.
By what I'm reading there, dual wielded lances should get 2 doubled attacks because both are being slammed into the opponent with the momentum of the charge.... And that is literally what it says.
No, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum.
And if that's the case since Natural Attacks don't need to be drawn back, and a full routine of Talon/Talon/Bite/Foreclaw/Foreclaw would each get the full momentum of the charge, wouldn't they then all get the doubled damage? Just going by RAW? Its not like the Natural Attack routine here has Iteratives which is specifically what's being called out.
The "pull back" stuff in the FAQ is basically flavor text to justify their position; the same arguments can be made with similar weapons such as Rapiers, Daggers, and other Piercing weapons, which gives the other weapon types an unfair advantage.
Even then, the double damage FAQ only refers to lances getting the added damage, not any other weapon.
Oh, and before someone suggests Spirited Charge to combine with Pounce and other weapons, that added damage doesn't multiply either.
I have no doubt we will see Shifter support in the future. More archetypes and forms are what I would expect most from Paizo.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, if they decide to publish a Pathfinder Unchained 2, you can bet that my vote for a revised class will go towards the Shifter.
That's a good point, I literally forgot about the fact that lances as a weapon have that benefit of doing double damage on a mounted charge, I guess I kinda derped there.
Benefit: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
okay, so it is able to keep up with other full babs. that is good
Sadly no. Shifter spikes to good at level 4 and CAN keep pace until 12, then it falls off hard and really struggles to keep pace with real martials who struggle at high levels anyways.
okay, so it is able to keep up with other full babs. that is goodSadly no. Shifter spikes to good at level 4 and CAN keep pace until 12, then it falls off hard and really struggles to keep pace with real martials who struggle at high levels anyways.
I don't care much about high level play 13+ as the chances to play that high for me are basically non-existent and I have other builds I'd want to play that high. Being able to keep close with the fighter through level 12 means that is can fill damage output role.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shifters still need more versatility. Limited uses of Wild Shape, time limits on Minor Aspects, Limited Number of Aspects overall, Must Take Aspects, and No Bonus Feats, makes for Very Dismal Versatility and an overall lack of choice in playstyle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shifters still need more versatility. Limited uses of Wild Shape, time limits on Minor Aspects, Limited Number of Aspects overall, Must Take Aspects, and No Bonus Feats, makes for Very Dismal Versatility and an overall lack of choice in playstyle.
Y'know I had a large post about woulda, shoulda, coulda as a response but it just circles back around that we see alot of potential to the class and we see the makings of a really fun and exciting class. Makes me ache for a playtest as all everyone is doing is making the same type of suggestions that would have been made for a playtest. :(
I feel like one of the problems with doing a playtest for the Shifter is that the book that features it is fundamentally about "Wilderness games" which are not exactly the norm. So you'd have to ask the people involved in the playtest to stick to scenarios where you're not really going inside/underground much. Things like "hey this is unclear" or "lack of bonus feats is a problem; full BAB classes get bonus feats (except the Paladin, which is already packed to the gills with class features.)" wouldn't necessarily need that sort of thing.
But I have to honestly say I've never played in a game where Woodland Stride or Wild Empathy were *really* useful, and that might be because I also haven't played in a game where High Jump and Slow Fall were *Really* useful, or just because I haven't been playing the right kinds of games.
Most of all, I'm not disappointed by the Shifter. I get that a lot of people were expecting to be able to play Beast Boy, and this resulted in massive disappointment. However I also didn't expect the Shifter to compete with the Druid (perhaps the most powerful base class).
I don't think anyone was expecting that honestly. Ignoring the rest of the 9th level casting, I think at some point or another it was stated that Shifters (the base at least) would be all about animal shapes, which already puts it below the Druid's normal spell-based shapeshifting and Wildshape in general, since that grants access to Beast Shape, Plant Shape, and Elemental Body at the same time.
However, expecting it to at the very least be on-par with the Druid's ability to turn into animals is reasonable. If the class' main ability is going to be a focused version of another class' secondary ability, at the very least it should function as well as if not better than that class while within its narrow focus. It doesn't, so that's where the issue is.
In that regard I was pleasantly surprised that the Weretouched Shifter allows you to be in either your Hybrid or Animal Forms for many hours at a time. The fact that it gets only one Aspect isn't really a problem for me, because I don't think a "Natural Weapon Master" really needs more than one form.
Honestly, I think the Weretouched is closer to what the Shifter should have been than what we got as the base class. Apart from trading out all your other aspects (but not explicitly Chimeric Aspects?) for DR that stops being relevant when +3 weapons start becoming a thing. And, weirdly, most Paizo APs. Like is it just me or does every single AP have a masterwork silver dagger in the first or second book?
Anyway, Lycanthropic Wild Shape does something that I really like and think the Shifter should have done normally: It gives access to a unique shifter ability. Unlike normal Wild Shape which is just a degraded version of the Druid's ability (which is just spells as a class ability), Lycanthropic Wild Shape grants the ability to turn into a monstrous hybrid creature which combines the best of all worlds. You get bonuses from Wild Shape, you get the natural attacks of your major form, and you get to retain your ability to speak. And you can still turn into an animal if you want to, so there's no harm there. It would just be better if you could have turned into different kinds of hybrid instead of just the one.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, Beast Boy would make a great example for what the shifter could have been. That or Animorphs.
You know, an archetype where you can Wildshape an unlimited amount(limited to animals you've actually touched, with a freebie at lv1) but if you ever stay Wildshaped too long you get stuck in it would be neat. Especially if you get Wild Speech or telepathy with it. For added 'be careful or get stuck' going unconscious wouldn't end the Wildshape.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, Beast Boy would make a great example for what the shifter could have been. That or Animorphs.
You know, an archetype where you can Wildshape an unlimited amount(limited to animals you've actually touched, with a freebie at lv1) but if you ever stay Wildshaped too long you get stuck in it would be neat. Especially if you get Wild Speech or telepathy with it. For added 'be careful or get stuck' going unconscious wouldn't end the Wildshape.
Perhaps by Wildshaping the aspect gains some kind of influence over the Shifter, who can gain additional influence to get a burst of power from the Aspect, but if they gain too much influence they become an uncontrolled animal NPC under the GM's control.
|
|
It sounds like you haven't read the material that inspired this sudden idea. Animorphs featured characters that could absorb DNA, through physical contact like petting a dog, from living creatures and changed into them, ranging from ants to a blue whale at one point. When a wormhole sent them through time the acquired dinosaur DNA too. Never used it afterwards though.
They did have to concentrate to absorb the DNA though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love the idea of the Weretouched Shifter and (generally) how it works. I just wish that it had more than two class features to gain after level 5. This lack of class features is essentially the shifter's main issue IMO.
I really wish that there was a feat that gave additional Wild Shape uses per day so we could just use the shifter for multiclassing purposes. That alone would at least make the class worthwhile. Normally stuff like the Shaping Focus feat would work, but since Shifter levels don't count as druid levels it doesn't do anything useful.
I love the idea of the Weretouched Shifter and (generally) how it works. I just wish that it had more than two class features to gain after level 5. This lack of class features is essentially the shifter's main issue IMO.
Yeah feels a bit like the gunslinger in disguise doesn't it...
I love the idea of the Weretouched Shifter and (generally) how it works. I just wish that it had more than two class features to gain after level 5. This lack of class features is essentially the shifter's main issue IMO.Yeah feels a bit like the gunslinger in disguise doesn't it...
It's definitely a pretty strong comparison. They're both sort of one trick classes with comparatively little player choice compared to many other paizo classes. Both have a lot of controversy around them too!
But the weretouched really is amazing in how underwhelming its later levels are. 5 gets you trackless step, 8 and 15 give you upgrades to your major form. Other than that even levels give you +1 DR/silver and +1 wild shape/day and odd levels give you bigger claws, except 9 which is completely dead.
Looking at the Weretouched I really think that if you're ever designing an archetype you should write up a post-archetype version of the class table. On paper the weretouched's trades seem sound enough but when you actually look at what the level progression looks like post 6 it's really disheartening.
Granted, that's in part because the base shifter itself is really bare bones later on, but still.
|
I love the idea of the Weretouched Shifter and (generally) how it works. I just wish that it had more than two class features to gain after level 5. This lack of class features is essentially the shifter's main issue IMO.
Thematically, I love the Weretouched. Hell, even more than the base class. It might have been better that way, making your single Aspect choice something akin to a sorcerer bloodline or a wizard school in terms of personal importance.
But then it kinda falls apart. From my reading, you only get the hybrid form, not the animal form, which cuts down on a lot of flavor. Add in the fact that many aspects feel like their lesser forms (or even greater!) are meant for side-job utility and are thus off the table, you might feel locked in a metagame where the only options are Bull, Raptor, or Tiger if you want to remain effective. And the cherry on top is the fact that your stat gains from shifting are locked at +2 and yeah we're looking at an advanced strain of Gunslinger Syndrome. Scaling DR that doesn't replace Wisdom to AC is pretty neat, though.
On a side note, it might just be amazing when you multiclass out to Inquisitor for BANE CLAW POUNCE.
On that note, it might just be amazing when you multiclass out to Inquisitor for BANE CLAW POUNCE.
Sadly bane only affects one weapon...
Except, and this merits emphasis, d20pfsrd is a third party site using hack-jobs of the original material because they can't use the copyrighted material, so things that are in the book get modified.
It is not a good source of material. Archives of Nethys would be better should Ultimate Wilderness get there.
d2pfsrd uses the language:
Shifters can take feats and other abilities that require wild shape; for the purpose of qualifying for prerequisites, her effective druid level is equal to her shifter level.
Now I already know what the book says because I own it but don't want to copy/paste here. But I challenge anyone who owns the book to tell me that the language isn't identical.
My opinion on this topic is that most people are building a character concept in a vacuum. I understand that there isn't a lot of other ways to do a character build, however, people are using this as a straight 1-20 single class progression. I'm not sure why anyone would purposefully limit themselves to that. The merits of a class do not end with only what it brings to a 1-20 single class build.
I think one of the best uses of Shifter is to go Dex Deinonychus build, grab a level or two of Monk and grab Dragon Style, Agile AOMF, Shifter's Edge, Deliquescent Gloves, etc.
I do not think that Shifters are as bad as some people are making it out to be. Builds have been posted here that keep up with other martials. The naysayers seem to willfully ignore them. I have a couple of builds that seem pretty decent. Its kind of funny actually how much people here complain about "martials can't have nice things" and when they give us things that are pretty close to what we wanted ... its still "martials can't have nice things".
The Shifter isn't over powered which is refreshing. I think Paizo has done fairly well at keeping power creep under control (at least as compared to 3.x). Shifter will only get better as more content is released but I think their starting point is pretty fair.
@Lune: Would you mind posting some of these builds? I’d be very interested in seeing what you’ve come under with.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the DPR department... Shifters can work reasonably well. It's the "everything else" part of the game where they disappoint.
I love the idea of the Weretouched Shifter and (generally) how it works. I just wish that it had more than two class features to gain after level 5. This lack of class features is essentially the shifter's main issue IMO.Thematically, I love the Weretouched. Hell, even more than the base class. It might have been better that way, making your single Aspect choice something akin to a sorcerer bloodline or a wizard school in terms of personal importance.
But then it kinda falls apart. From my reading, you only get the hybrid form, not the animal form, which cuts down on a lot of flavor. Add in the fact that many aspects feel like their lesser forms (or even greater!) are meant for side-job utility and are thus off the table, you might feel locked in a metagame where the only options are Bull, Raptor, or Tiger if you want to remain effective. And the cherry on top is the fact that your stat gains from shifting are locked at +2 and yeah we're looking at an advanced strain of Gunslinger Syndrome. Scaling DR that doesn't replace Wisdom to AC is pretty neat, though.
On a side note, it might just be amazing when you multiclass out to Inquisitor for BANE CLAW POUNCE.
You know, a homebrew rewrite where you get both Wis to AC and DR, like Weretouch is basic idea. Each of animal forms get a hybrid ability.
This way Shifter is unique shapechanger as it can talk as animal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Lune: Would you mind posting some of these builds? I’d be very interested in seeing what you’ve come under with.
I gave most of one above. I'd prefer to not post it. I'm a bit paranoid at this point that I have a stalker on Paizo's staff who follows around my posts and nerfs my builds. ... what?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From my reading, you only get the hybrid form, not the animal form, which cuts down on a lot of flavor.
Instead of assuming a major form she can assume a hybrid form.
It's can, not must. I don't see how you can read that as mandatory.
That said yeah being stuck to only one form compounds how niche some of the forms are even more.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From my reading, you only get the hybrid form, not the animal form, which cuts down on a lot of flavor.Instead of assuming a major form she can assume a hybrid form.It's can, not must. I don't see how you can read that as mandatory.
My concern is the fact that "she can" is inclusive to the hybrid form, but there is no mention whatsoever about the animal form. And since hybrid form alters wild shape, it leaves me unsure. And being a PFS player, I've learned to assume the stricter ruling until provided with strong working to the contrary.
I mean, I could be wrong. I hope I am! But if that's the case, I feel like the animal form could have used a call-out. Give it something like "In addition to her animal form, she can assume a hybrid form."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My opinion on this topic is that most people are building a character concept in a vacuum. I understand that there isn't a lot of other ways to do a character build, however, people are using this as a straight 1-20 single class progression. I'm not sure why anyone would purposefully limit themselves to that. The merits of a class do not end with only what it brings to a 1-20 single class build.
I think one of the best uses of Shifter is to go Dex Deinonychus build, grab a level or two of Monk and grab Dragon Style, Agile AOMF, Shifter's Edge, Deliquescent Gloves, etc.
Actually that is rather what people are disappointed in.
I'm fine with dipping and multi-classing for some builds....But if a base class has so little to compel me to play the class beyond dipping into it.....that's disappointing in the extreme.
Currently, I see no reason to take the Shifter as anything other than a dip for some builds.
Anything that fit's the Shifters concept, I can do better with existing classes/Archetypes.
That's not "willfully ignoring" anything.....it's just what it is ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Lune: Would you mind posting some of these builds? I’d be very interested in seeing what you’ve come under with.I gave most of one above. I'd prefer to not post it. I'm a bit paranoid at this point that I have a stalker on Paizo's staff who follows around my posts and nerfs my builds. ... what?
Your build was nerfed before you posted it. Shifter's Edge only works with DEX to attack and STR to damage, meaning it won't work with the Agile weapon property.
Also, just because a class can deal damage, doesn't it make it good. The Core Rulebook Fighter and Rogue can put out damage, but both are generally seen as incredibly weak classes, mainly because they lack utility, like the Shifter does.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Add in the fact that many aspects feel like their lesser forms (or even greater!) are meant for side-job utility and are thus off the table, you might feel locked in a metagame where the only options are Bull, Raptor, or Tiger if you want to remain effective.
Better Picture Bull! I think this better illustrates it next to the talking raptor and the toramimi(look up what a kemonomimi is).
|
|
Add in the fact that many aspects feel like their lesser forms (or even greater!) are meant for side-job utility and are thus off the table, you might feel locked in a metagame where the only options are Bull, Raptor, or Tiger if you want to remain effective.Better Picture Bull! I think this better illustrates it next to the talking raptor and the toramimi(look up what a kemonomimi is).
Oh, trust me when I say I had that one on tap when I was typing up my post. But since I swapped to a less risque version of Katt (she doesn't wear pants, after all) I figued I'd keep it consistant.
Still, an overly affectionate bull aspect shifter is a really fun character idea and I kind of want to make one as an NPC now.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have no problem wiht its combat ability's I'm sure it does fine DPR My complaint is how limited its shape-shifting is And maybe 1-3 of the archetypes as well as a few of the mechanics that just weren't explained well enough to work.
That and their bonuses from the aspects should not of been enhancement bonuses. Since they are they need a special belt shifter only that lets them have more aspects active at once time then I could forgive that one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have no problem wiht its combat ability's I'm sure it does fine DPR My complaint is how limited its shape-shifting is And maybe 1-3 of the archetypes as well as a few of the mechanics that just weren't explained well enough to work.
I certainly want to be able to keep pace with "the average" class when dealing damage....but DPR and optimization is not my focus either.
I wan't to feel that I have at least the potential of something of use to contribute during at least the bulk of an adventuring day.
And I don't see it as the class stands.....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can see that but that is still not that big a deal to me. I feel they should just be able to shift forms longer, more of them, way more often.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So... Who's handling the bets for "How long until they nerf Druids and Feral Hunters to make the Shifter look better"?Shhhh.... pointing this out might make it happen quicker...
That...might actually spell the end of my relationship with Pathfinder if that happened again.
That...might actually spell the end of my relationship with Pathfinder if that happened again.So... Who's handling the bets for "How long until they nerf Druids and Feral Hunters to make the Shifter look better"?Shhhh.... pointing this out might make it happen quicker...
Yeah, I would probably go back to 3.5 or find old used books of PF if the devs decided to take PF in that direction.
Hell, I might even give 4e a shot or just play more Savage Worlds.