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I'm not a hundred percent sure this might be the forum to ask, but I have been reading that the Mystic Theurge is considered to be underpowered. What can be done to bring the prestige class up and an attractive choice for players to build towards?
Replace the 3rd level spell requirement wit 2nd. You'll lose less spell levels that way and will be able to take it at a lower level.
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Replace the 3rd level spell requirement wit 2nd. You'll lose less spell levels that way and will be able to take it at a lower level.
Huh?
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
Anyway, I'd allow the feat Prestigious Spellcaster to boost the missing casting levels from your main classes, up to your character level. Normally it wouldn't apply since Mystic Theurge boots caster level each level anyway, but i'd let it anyway.
A 7th level wizard with the faith magic discovery / 1st level divine caster can enter it and that's not overpowered. Mainly because divine casting 3+ spell levels below what a single-classed divine caster can do at that level isn't a big deal. For the right character it might be worth the loss of a wizard level.
Magus 6 (broad study) / divine caster 3-4 is interesting but probably still underpowered. With sufficiently high stats you might be able to do something with a warpriest there, but a single classed magus is still going to be more impressive IMO.
The wizard 3 / cleric 3 entry is definitely underpowered and other close variants are worse. The wiz 2 / cleric 1 entry which SLAs allowed was overpowered, I agree. If you can set up entry prereqs so that each class is one spell level behind a single-class (arcane caster level 2 / divine caster level 2) and maybe add a feat tax I think that'd work.
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Have a DM that does more than 4 encounters/day.
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First, lower the prerequisites. Something like this would be appropriate IMO:
* Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks.
* Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.
Second, add some actual class features. The Combined Spells feature is redundant with actually having the dual progression spellcasting, and is only meaningful if you mix a spontaneous and prepared caster class.
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Kobold Press re-imagined the Mystic Theurge as a base class: Theurge.
I think this works rather well.
Mystic Theurge can get pretty crazy if you use the Esoteric Training found in Inner Sea Magic. At 20 a Wizard 6 / Cleric 4 / Theurge 10 has spells as both a 17th level wizard and cleric if you apply the +3/+1 correctly (bumping wizard up by 1, and cleric up by 3).
However it should be noted those rules use the fame mechanic, and is very powerful for what it offers. I would personally make it 4 feats or so if a player of mine wanted to try it.
First, lower the prerequisites. Something like this would be appropriate IMO:
* Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks.
* Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.Second, add some actual class features. The Combined Spells feature is redundant with actually having the dual progression spellcasting, and is only meaningful if you mix a spontaneous and prepared caster class.
My houserule is "able to cast arcane spells, able to cast divine spells, able to cast 2nd level spells". Doesn't matter what class has the 2nd level spells, as long as you have both arcane and divine.
If we're changing it up a bit, maybe we should include psychic spellcasters while we're at it. Or would that have unforeseen consequences?
In terms of optimization, there is that one half elf ability that boosts the caster level by one for two classes, which stacks with magical knack. This helps maintain the same strength for spells of one class (maybe wizard, tends to be more level-dependent).
I think the primary issue is that it doesn't pick up until around level 15-ish.
If we're changing it up a bit, maybe we should include psychic spellcasters while we're at it. Or would that have unforeseen consequences?
My 2cp would be to make archetypes that advance divine/psychic and arcane/psychic. Going with additional separate classes would lead to a hodgepodge of advancing 3 types of casting.
A 7th level wizard with the faith magic discovery / 1st level divine caster can enter it and that's not overpowered. Mainly because divine casting 3+ spell levels below what a single-classed divine caster can do at that level isn't a big deal. For the right character it might be worth the loss of a wizard level.
Magus 6 (broad study) / divine caster 3-4 is interesting but probably still underpowered. With sufficiently high stats you might be able to do something with a warpriest there, but a single classed magus is still going to be more impressive IMO. {. . .}
Normally, almost any entry into a spellcasting prestige class with a 6/9 (or worse yet 4/9) caster is bad, because you are progressing the slower spellcasting without getting any more progression of other class features (upon which 6/9 casters are more dependent) in return. However, in the case of Wizard 7 (or 8, if you want your 8th level School Power) with Faith Magic, dipping 1 level of Living Grimoire Inquisitor (which is Intelligence-based and prepared casting) could actually be worthwhile, since you give up so little in return.
An early entry trick into Mystic Theurge that might be still legitimate(*) for being early on both sides would be to use Equipment Trick (Sunrod (Like the Sun))(**) and make sure that you have a [Light] spell known in both classes -- this lets you treat them as 2nd level spells.
(*)Rules As Written, it is legitimate, but not PFS-legal, and expect some GMs to balk even outside of PFS.
(**)Once you have this, when you qualify for the other Equipment Trick (Sunrod) tricks, you get them automatically, which has the potential to be useful.
Kobold Press re-imagined the Mystic Theurge as a base class: Theurge.I think this works rather well.
Here is what I found for Kobold Press Theurge.
Another approach would be to have the Mystic Theurge prestige class entry requirements specifically allow you to use a spell-like ability to qualify (maybe have this work for your choice of arcane or divine, but not both at the same time).
My inclination for a (Mystic) Theurge base class (cobbled together from 2 old posts here and here) would be a d6, 1/2 BAB, good Will Save, and dual 6/9 spellcasting specified by the Specializations indicated below. This class would be intentionally MAD, with something like an Arcane Reservoir or a coarse pool (one of those 3 + ChaMod things) to power additional tricks, including adding Metamagic (eventually including Quicken Spell) on the fly without increasing the level of spell slot expended (or reducing the level increase). This would use any combination of 2 of arcane, divine, or occult.
As a class feature, give them Heighten Spell as a bonus feat at 3rd level with a maximum total spell level of 2 + 1 for every 2 levels beyond 3rd, and they can sacrifice divine spell slots to pay for the Heighten Spell increase when casting arcane spells, or vice versa. If they know other Metamagic Feats (not learned automatically), they can exchange 1 level of Heighten Spell for each level of increase used by the other Metamagic Feat. At 6th level, they get Intensified Spell as a bonus feat, but when used with Heighten Spell, instead of adding its own level of increase, it piggybacks off Heighten Spell (requiring that you cast with at least 1 level of Heighten Spell not sacrificed to use a different Metamagic Feat), and it is not limited to 1 level, and applies to all spell effects that are caster-level-dependent that have a cap, not just damage dice.
Instead of archetypes (although archetypes could be added later), this class would have Arcane Specializations and Divine Specializations (select 1 of each at 1st level), each corresponding to a 6/9 or 9/9 spellcasting base class and selecting the spell list of each type, as well as a limited subset of other class features from the base class. Either way, the spellcasting is 6/9 (truncated if needed); if the spell list is already a 6/9 spell list that is tweaked to compensate for being 6/9 (early entry on some spells, such as with Bard, Summoner, Hunter, and Inquisitor), then the subset of corresponding other class features is less to compensate. Optionally, Arcane Specialization or Divine Specialization (but not both) can be replaced with Occult Specialization.
Other stuff: Also adds Mystic Theurge class features at certain levels. Spells per day for each type of spellcasting is sams as for a Bard or Inquisitor; spells known or spells prepared is also same as these if a spontaneous or hybrid casting base class is chosen by Arcane Specialization, Divine Specialization, or Occult Specialization. Spellcasting modifiers and highest level of castable spells (including levels added by Heighten Spell) depend on the same ability scores as for the base class corresponding to the chosen Arcane and Divine Specializations (or Occult Specialization) (this is intentionally MAD, but when sacrificing spell slots to power Heighten Spell, you do not need to have the ability score corresponding to the sacrificed spell slot be high enough to cast spells of the level of sacrificed spell slots).
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I'm going to echo those who've said that the class doesn't need improving.
I played a mystic theurge in a 3.5 campaign, went from about level 6 up to level 13. Elf Cleric/Wizard. I favoured divinations and transmutations. I had an answer for just about everything. I did not do piles of damage, that wasn't really my job, but I could find a way through nearly any obstacle. I was the only survivor of the campaign, with everyone else eventually dying in an encounter that I escaped thanks to polymorph.
Mystic Theurge isn't going to give you overwhelming attack options (although it is possible to optimise the class as a blaster). It will give you more spells than you can possibly cast in a day, and that should give you an answer to almost every problem, especially if you enter from prepared caster base classes.
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All I can say is that when I played a mystic theurge when you could qualify from SLAs, that it was overpowered. So I wouldn't change the class at all. Making changes that would allow full spell casting or near spellcasting makes it an overpowered class.
I disagree with this, at least for PFS and low to mid levels.
I played the character to level 10 and for PFS games my early entry Mystic Theurge was NOT overpowered. If anything, it was slightly underpowered compared to a straight wizard or cleric.
He had an INSANE variety of spells, of course. And he pretty much never ran out of spells to cast. But he was 1/2 a spell level behind, his main casting stat was two lower, he was missing on class features, and he had one less hit point a level. That all adds up.
I think the biggest reason for people to have different experiences is how close the campaign comes to "15 minute adventuring day". If the campaign has lots and lots of encounters in a day then the sheer lasting power of a Theurge is immense. But in many campaigns (including PFS) there are only a few encounters per day and this is far, far less of a factor.
dot
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Prestigious Spellcaster feat specifically will not work with the prestige class because
"Does not have any effect if your favored prestige class does not have the spells per day class feature, or if it does have the spells per day class feature but already grants a level increase for every level of the prestige class"
Well, yeah. I mentioned in my post that it normally doesn't do what I would allow it to do, but that I would anyway. There are already other means to get your spellcasting levels back (Best one is Kintargo Opera House guild/school rules from Inner Sea). For someone without that option, sacrificing several feas to 'catch up' on spellcasting levels seems about right.
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I think with the right build you can compensate the weak spots of the theurge somewhat:
1) Use racial CL boosters (hello half-elf).
2) Get as many useful class skills as possible via a smart combination of classes.
3) When you can choose from class features (e.g. bloodlines), take those that benefit you on very low levels.
4) Start with 3 (respective 4) levels in one class first, so you won't lag behind a normal full caster much.
5) Use wands, scrolls etc. - you usually don't even need UMD, just an easy check. The fact your highest spell level is lowish doesn't impact the spell levels of loot...
I'd count the relatively weak mid levels as an unique challenge - don't see a need to kill that with adapting the class...
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I think with the right build you can compensate the weak spots of the theurge somewhat:
1) Use racial CL boosters (hello half-elf).
2) Get as many useful class skills as possible via a smart combination of classes.
3) When you can choose from class features (e.g. bloodlines), take those that benefit you on very low levels.
4) Start with 3 (respective 4) levels in one class first, so you won't lag behind a normal full caster much.
5) Use wands, scrolls etc. - you usually don't even need UMD, just an easy check. The fact your highest spell level is lowish doesn't impact the spell levels of loot...I'd count the relatively weak mid levels as an unique challenge - don't see a need to kill that with adapting the class...
I'm currently playing a Mystic Theurge in a campaign and he is level 10. Using all the tricks listed above, I was able to make him useful in just about every situation.
1) Multitalented (halfelf alt. racial), & Bifurcated Magic (trait/halfelf)
2) All skill except Disable Device, Escape Artist, Stealth, Linguistics, and Sleight of Hand, were class skills.
3) Hexes, Bloodline powers, Revelations, and Spirits were all chosen to benefit having 4 class levels or less.
4) Shaman, Sorcerer, Stargazer, Mystic Theurge. Sprinkled in Kintargo Opera house guild master.
5) I made use of rods, scrolls, wands, animal companion, and familiar to get the best out of everything.
Fun tip: Half-elf can take the +5 ft for a Hex range with Shaman. I used it for Chant so that I could be 50ft away and still keep things up.
Waves (Main) Spirit
-Wave Strike (touch attack, push away creature, no save)
-Stardust (debuff and invisibility/concealment nullifier)
Heavens (Wandering) SPirit
Protective Luck (Hex)
Chant (hex)
Weasel (Protector) Familiar
Sorcerer 1 (CL 10, effective level 8, 4th level spell access)
Empyreal Bloodline (Wildblooded): Wisdom based casting
Blood Havoc (+1 damage per die of spells)
Stargazer 3
Evil Eye (hex)
The Stargazer (+2 initiative, not flat footed if havent acted)
Stargazer Domain (Guarded Mind: +2 save vs mindeffecting)
Mystic Theurge 2
Combined Spells (1st level)
Feats:
1) Skill Focus (Perception)
B) Eschew Materials
3) Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) {Traded power for Bloodline familiar}
5) Nature Soul
7) Animal Ally (small cat) {Totem Guide archetype}
9) Boon Companion (small cat)
Between using standard actions to cast spells, buff allies/companions (some sweet spells to share with animal companion from both lists), move actions to chant, and animal companion to ferry me around the battle field, I was fairly untouchable.
I've always found that the class really suffers from a terrible name.
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Just what's to improve? it's a PrC aimed at letting a guy with both arcane and diving casting to advance fully and simultaneously in both...
given what it does, I find it fine as it is...
possible hose rules:
-reduce the entrance requirement (only lvl 1 spellcasting required, only lvl 1 required in the skills) I recommend neither as both show minimal proficiency and dedication to both paths)
-Now, if you feel that the Mystic Theurge is too weak, then advance literally both classes up, including features beyond spellcasting... this is essentially creating a full gestalt character and is not suitable for all campaignds...
Beyond that, I don't know what you may want, please explain more precisely, I'll find more ideas, maybe...
a tiny tad complicated, and it would have to be adjudicated individually per each idfferent class... BTW, do alchemists, with their 'magic that's not really magic' qualify for the arcane component of a mystic theurge?
^Rules as Written, Alchemy isn't arcane, and thus doesn't qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Fair 'nuff
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I dm'ed for a mystic theurge necromancer once. It was so effective.
even with the reduced cleric llvl for rebuking purposes?
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Yeah they basically just created armies and used necro spells to hurt enemies and heal their undead. I don't think he used rebuke hardly at all by the time he had hit mystic theurge.
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The Wizard/Cleric entry doesn't suffer too much from lost class feature, since Clerics and Wizards don't have any critical class features to miss out on. The big selling point of those two classes is having the best arcane and divine casting ability (respectively) and Mystic Theurge offers full progression on that. You even get your specialty/domain slots on new spell levels achieved through Mystic Theurge advancement.
The problem of lost class feature progression is more painful for other prospective classes. Sorcerers, Arcanists, Oracles, and especially Druids rely on their class features much more than Wizards do. Sorcerers and Oracles don't get their bloodline/mystery spells when progressing in PRC's, which are (at least in my view) their equivalent to specialty/domain slots. All taken together this is rather punitive to these classes, and when you add that they also qualify later, it's just nasty.
Mystic Theurge does have a superb niche as a necromancer, which puts its mixed spell list to use in a very good way. However, as is always the case with mystic theurge (at least without early qualification) it's a pretty rough ride through the low levels and your build is coming online much later than other approaches to necromancy. Mystic Theurge works best if you're starting a game already at level 10+, but playing your way up to that is another matter.
^And, as previously noted, this is even worse for entry from 6/9 classes . . . but then again, that is true for the overwhelming majority of prestige classes that advance spellcasting at all. Again, the exception that I can think of would be Wizard 7 or 8 --> Faith Magic --> Living Grimoire Inquisitor 1 --> Mystic Theurge -- you still don't get much out of Living Grimoire Inquisitor other than the 6/9 spellcasting, but at least you give up very little (it doesn't even make you MAD).
Mystic theurge can work with a few combinations of 6/9 caster classes with a 9/9 caster class:
For instance, a magus 7/cleric (negative energy) 3/mystic theurge 10 gains extra buffs to help counter the lower BAB and spell slots (with Broad Study) for use with Spellstrike/Spell Combat. With Magical Knack (Magus), you're only down 1 CL from a straight magus (although 3 levels of spell progression behind) and also have casting as a cleric 13 (7th-level spells).
^What does the Negative Energy Channeling do for you in this case? You only get 2d6 of it. And you end up with delayed Magus spell progression and not most of your Magus class features. And you don't have any more time to do the extra self-buffing you need than you do before.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I think when compared to 6-level caster base classes, PrCs like mystic theurge come out pretty favorably at many levels. At very low levels you're a single class spellcaster, which is fine. Once you hit level 10 and higher, your casting progression equals or exceeds that of a 6-level caster, so as long as your other class abilities are worth it, you compare favorably to those. For example, the mystic theurge gets an entire second casting progression, which is pretty nice.
The main issue is that levels 5-8 are truly, epically painful. You're building up your second class and the neat stuff from the PrC hasn't really kicked in yet. Plus these are the levels where a lot of common builds really start to come online, and the MT character is at their worst in comparison so it's even harsher. It's also a full 1/3 of PFS levels.
If we're changing it up a bit, maybe we should include psychic spellcasters while we're at it. Or would that have unforeseen consequences?My 2cp would be to make archetypes that advance divine/psychic and arcane/psychic. Going with additional separate classes would lead to a hodgepodge of advancing 3 types of casting.
I'd simplify and allow any two spellcasting classes. If you want a cleric/druid, wizard/witch, or medium/spiritualist theurge, more power to you.
That's not really the spirit, but maybe the spirit was wrong and you got a great idea... too bad I play so little, I'd love to test it.
^What does the Negative Energy Channeling do for you in this case? You only get 2d6 of it. And you end up with delayed Magus spell progression and not most of your Magus class features. And you don't have any more time to do the extra self-buffing you need than you do before.
Spontaneous conversion of cleric spell slots into inflict spells. Not earth-shattering, but helps when burning through spell slots with Spellstrike. Also, gain access to some other nasty touch attack spells like death knell, bestow curse (without needing the hexcrafter archetype), contagion, poison, and slay living.
The cleric spell list has a ton of both long term and short-term buffs; with a smart choice of deity (and domains), the domain spells can add even more great options (barkskin, for example; and/or heroism without needing to use a magus arcana choice or a feat for Extra Magus Arcana). Bless, divine favor, entropic shield, shield of faith, aid, resist energy, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law (if you know you are going to face certain types of foes), magic vestment, death ward, divine power, freedom of movement, spell immunity, and righteous might are just some from the Core Rulebook.
^Spontaneous conversion of Cleric spell slots into Inflict for Spellstrike doesn't seem like a very good use of them -- remember that whoever you hit with this gets to save for half damage, unlike Shocking Grasp (or even Corrosive Touch, if you are up against something immune or strongly resistant to Electricity). If you want to go Necromantic against enemies, Chill Touch would be more efficient, but you don't need to be a Cleric to use that. For getting access to debuff spells, Cleric is nice, but going single-class Hexcrafter Magus would probably work better.
For getting extra buffs, Cleric is nice, but for the short-term ones, you are going to be limited by action economy unless you have really good advance warning about when you are going to have to fight. Also, since Use Magic Device is a class skill for a Magus, you have the option to get the Pragmatic Activator trait to make it Intelligence-based, and use Scrolls (Potions and Wands for the lower level spells) to buff yourself for the really critical fights. (Potentially also add Staves, especially if you are a Staff Magus, which you can combine with Hexcrafter.) Potentially, you could even use this for a subset of the debuffs (Wand Wielder even makes your Wand and Staff spells work with Spell Combat, although if using Wands for this, you will likely also want Wand Mastery to make this really good).
But again, the big problem with a 6/9 caster such as Magus into Mystic Theurge is that you are still only progressing 6/9 spellcasting (with a delay, even if you manage to pull off early entry cheese) while leaving out all those juicy class features that go along with the 6/9 spellcasting to make it good.
^I'm thinking Cleric VMC Magus (better spellcasting but terrible on feats) or Warpriest VMC Magus (worse spellcasting but much better on feats), or maybe even Oracle or Shaman VMC Magus (if they ever come out with an option for an Oracle or Shaman to do something with Negative Channeling other than Command Undead), or even Inquisitor VMC Magus.
Note: VMC is not PFS-legal, last time I checked.
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I'm not a fan of gestalt personally. Hybrid classes are as close as I care to go for it.